Forum Post: US Ranks 114th on Happy Planet Index. Why do we still use GDP?
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 27, 2011, 4:08 a.m. EST by JadedCitizen
(4277)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
GDP per capita is not a measurement of the standard of living in an economy. However, it is often used as such an indicator, on the rationale that all citizens would benefit from their country's increased economic production. Similarly, GDP per capita is not a measure of personal income. GDP may increase while real incomes for the majority decline.
The major advantage of GDP per capita as an indicator of standard of living is that it is measured frequently, widely, and consistently.
The major disadvantage is that it is not a measure of standard of living. GDP is intended to be a measure of total national economic activity—a separate concept.
GDP counts work that produces no net change or that results from repairing harm. For example, rebuilding after a natural disaster or war may produce a considerable amount of economic activity and thus boost GDP. The economic value of health care is another classic example—it may raise GDP if many people are sick and they are receiving expensive treatment, but it is not a desirable situation.
Should we be demanding alternatives to GDP?
5 Excellent Alternatives to the Archaic GDP Measuring Stick
Genuine Progress Indicator
Quality of Life Index
The Legatum Prosperity Index
The Happy Planet Index 2.0
Human Development Index
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2011/05/04/the-top-5-prosperity-measuring-sticks-more-accurate-than-gpd/
Interesting. And, it has been proven that happiness levels off after a certain amount of income, somewhere around $75,000 per year.
other indexes
work hours
life expectancy
infant mortality rate
emergency room visits
violent crime
number jailed per capita
and some more indexes
Index of Sustainable Economic Welfare, which factors in both pollution and income distribution
Genuine Progress Indicator, which tries to determine if economic growth has improved a country’s welfare
Happy Planet Index (sounds a bit goofy), which measures human well-being and environmental impact. U.S. ranks 114th on this list btw.
We need an index that shows how evolved we are.
Not a measure of industrial development or materialistic dependency, but an index that shows how free spirited and intellectually advanced a society is.
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How can you measure free spirited?
Do people think for themselves and are they free to express their thoughts, or are they told what to think and how to live their lives by the one percent. How much Respect for free speech and universal human rights there is in a society is a good measurement as to how free spirited the people in that society are.
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How can you measure respect? Don't get me wrong, I get what you mean. But you have to be able to quantify it somehow. It can't be opinion based. It needs to be determinative based on something you can count. My height can be measured by units of inches and everybody can agree on that standard unit of measurement.
The number of people killed, tortured, suppressed, and the number of lives that are derailed or otherwise destroyed at the hands of the one percent is quantifiable.
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Sure. But I would rather keep the discussion broader and inclusive. There may be some in the 1% who might have something positive to add to this.
The individual members of the one percent come and go and there might be some of them who have good intentions, but the collective entity that they represent continues to take us and this planet down the path of destruction.
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You're right.
Free spirit may be hard to measure, but we could examine the extent to which lifestyle choices are legislated against.
That is a quantifiable way. We are what we count.
thanks
er..
number of people on facebook
er....
300 million.
the us population is 300 million
300 million worldwide. my bad.
going to bed
5 Excellent Alternatives to the Archaic GDP Measuring Stick
Genuine Progress Indicator
Quality of Life Index
The Legatum Prosperity Index
The Happy Planet Index 2.0
Human Development Index
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2011/05/04/the-top-5-prosperity-measuring-sticks-more-accurate-than-gpd/
you are on track - thanks for pushing this line - the way we look at the economy is completely fucked and at the heart of our problems. not sure if i sent this to you before but here is max neef - AMY GOODMAN: What do you think needs to change? You’re saying it’s obvious, but what do you think needs to happen that they’re avoiding?
AMY GOODMAN: And if you’re teaching young economists, the principles you would teach them, what they’d be?
AMY GOODMAN: While President Obama is reporting looking into tapping a former corporate executive to become his next top economic adviser, many economists question the path the United States is on. Last week, during our trip to Bonn, Germany, I had a chance to speak with the acclaimed Chilean economist Manfred Max-Neef. He won the Right Livelihood Award in 1983, two years after the publication of his book Outside Looking In: Experiences in Barefoot Economics. I began by asking him to explain what barefoot economics is.
MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Well, it’s a metaphor, but a metaphor that originated in a concrete experience. I worked for about ten years of my life in areas of extreme poverty in the Sierras, in the jungle, in urban areas in different parts of Latin America. And at the beginning of that period, I was one day in an Indian village in the Sierra in Peru. It was an ugly day. It had been raining all the time. And I was standing in the slum. And across me, another guy also standing in the mud — not in the slum, in the mud. And, well, we looked at each other, and this was a short guy, thin, hungry, jobless, five kids, a wife and a grandmother. And I was the fine economist from Berkeley, teaching in Berkeley, having taught in Berkeley and so on. And we were looking at each other, and then suddenly I realized that I had nothing coherent to say to that man in those circumstances, that my whole language as an economist, you know, was absolutely useless. Should I tell him that he should be happy because the GDP had grown five percent or something? Everything was absurd.
I agree completely. It's absurd.i think he is really good - pointing out the obvious flaws in economic theory. he also makes the point correctly that economics is our new religion - drives policy so we need to understand it well in order to change the system in a meaningful way
No doubt. His asset is an ability to weigh the importance of things and put them in proper context, and when you do that, the right questions get asked.
People vs. Money, which is more important? Why should money more be more necessary than the human beings that use it? It should be remembered that currency is a tool created by people. It should remain a necessary component of a developed economy to hold the wood together. Still, currency should only be useful, like a screwdriver, and not the holy grail of life.
In other words, when people become subservient to the tools they create, they are becoming like 'tools'.
Yes, you did, during my first week on here.
What needs to change? It only occurred to me the other day that no one could really answer me when I asked them what the goal of capitalism is. That led me to search for that answer - GDP. Which does nothing to measure anything I give a damn about.
This is obvious - well-being and long-term sustainability should be the goals.
Avoiding? Finite growth, I suppose.
Thanks for adding to this line, the CIA website even has things like life expectancy and infant mortillty, that are usefull.
If we measure America by GDP, we are the wealthiest nation in the world. But it is not at all representative of our overall prosperity. We should also take into account an,
Income Index
I'm not sure we even have the highest per capital GDP anymore. "Confession of an Ecoomic Hit Man" talks at lenght about the falicy of GDP, mostly in regaurds to measuring how much we "helped" other nations. Spoiler alert: we did it by making a FEW people very rich.
We may not, I'm not sure. But anybody defending America, or the sacred cow that is capitalism in general, will tell you capitalism produces the greatest wealth anyone has ever witnessed before and does more to lift people out of poverty than any other system. It seems rather evident to me this is a false claim. "C of an EHM", is that a book?
Oh and yes it's a book, by a guy who made his living for many years going into countries and convincing them to go into unsustainable debt.
I too believe a number of claims are suspect, but "ends" and "means" being ethical debates and whatnot, I'm not sure I care. What I do care about is having a strong country and decent life for me and family and if that means mixing in a little "socialism" I'm ok with that.
Me too.
GDP rat race.
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grand daddy purple
It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.
Spoiled Brats we are...
As much as I hate to agree with you, I have to agree with you....
Why would you hate to agree with me? I bash both parties :)
Because it's funner being disagreeable. And who likes to be reminded we're spoiled brats, even if it is true.
GDP rat race.
This is why we are here this is why you are needed.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/inside-job-documentary/
Share, circulate, educate, inspire.
Great documentary. It should be mandatory viewing.
It really is. I'm trying to push it viral. Great education for the 99% of the world.
Somebody should make a shorter version if you really want it to go viral.
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You lost me. What does the name of congress have to do with GDP?
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No, I'm not looking at archaic terms, I'm looking at archaic practices.
Congress means the national legislative body of the US. They seem to be doing a fine job of legislation (NDAA, SOPA, etc.), just not on behalf of their non-adoring public or their inability to pass a damn thing. .
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Corpress is nice, But no, I think they got it right to begin with. The 'con' in the word congress describes their behavior to a 'T'.
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Damn shame.
114 th seems terribly low for a nation that has everything ?
Well, a few of the nation anyway.
On another thread I was asked to prove what I had commented about personal interest being a stronger motivator than financial incentive. I was arguing equal pay would allow for everyone to decide on a career without having financial incentive as part of the equation. And believing persons would achieve greater happiness.
With this happy planet index would equal pay improve the rating ?
The Global HPI incorporates three separate indicators: ecological footprint, life-satisfaction and life expectancy.
Conceptually the HPI is straightforward. It is an efficiency measure: well-being delivered per unit of environmental impact.
What I gather (looking at their website) is that the US is among the least efficient countries at delivering well-being to its citizens per unit of environmental impact. I can't say it makes an argument for equal pay, but it certainly makes a statement about how inefficient and wasteful the US is.
The western world is a rat race. We work our lives away without a moment to spare. Never seeming to have enough. Leaving a terrible wake of destruction. It's called Freedom !
It's important to step back and look at the big picture without bias. There is nothing wrong with the concept of freedom in and of itself. Nor is there anything with the concept of equality in and of itself, though some may argue that we will never truly be equal (as I know you've experienced), there is nothing wrong with the ideal . The real problem lies in how we conceptualize and interact with the ideas of freedom or equality. In other words the goals we set to meet those ideals.
That's why I feel it is so important to bring up the the measurements of our societies. The direction we travel depends on the destination we set for ourselves. GDP tells us to do nothing more than keep producing, keep producing, and produce some more. More, more, more gross domestic products grows the economy.
Does that goal foster freedom & equality? No, it fosters a rat race, so we need new measurements that reflect what we really want to achieve.
Currently, freedom is associated with accumulating wealth, we need to make a new association - maybe our idea of freedom should be to spend less time chasing wealth and enjoying life.
By your ideals, equality is associated with equal pay, how else can it be associated or conceptualized and measured? stretch your thinking...
I've always considered respect a measure of equality myself (which is thoroughly lacking in this drastic income gap world I find myself in). In other words, I don't care if a brain surgeon makes more than me as long as he gives me equal respect.
The big picture is multidimensional.
I've been stretching my mind.
GDP may be an indicator of a nations wealth. But somehow the markets manage to take that wealth from the nation , leaving a huge debt in both government and public sectors. Which creates that never ending rat race.
The practical, fundamental problem is the goal of growth, not the ideal goals of equal pay or equal opportunity.
Ideals, by their very nature are difficult to achieve because they are the optimum, or ideal, situations & outcomes we strive for.
Ideally, I would like to be happy every moment of my life, but it is improbable for all sorts of reasons, car breaks down, someone dies, etc.
Ideally, I would like to be completely free and do whatever I want, like soar through space and go visit other planets, but I am limited and constrained by the reality that I can't fly on my own power into space like Superman and our technology is not advanced enough for me to go Star Trekking in a spaceship.
So, it is necessary & worthwhile to strive toward ideals, but actual goals must be practical and attainable.
Like limiting growth. and focusing on development.
MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Growth is a quantitative accumulation. Development is the liberation of creative possibilities. Every living system in nature grows up to a certain point and stops growing. You are not growing anymore, nor he nor me. But we continue developing ourselves. Otherwise we wouldn’t be dialoguing here now. So development has no limits. Growth has limits. And that is a very big thing, you know, that economists and politicians don’t understand. They are obsessed with the fetish of economic growth.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/9/22/chilean_economist_manfred_max_neef_us
The development of civilization has been oppressed by the lack of imagination. Without imagination there is no growth. As you mentioned it is the goals we strive for. There is plenty of technology, plenty of GDP , but greed prevents fair and equal distribution. This is the next hurdle mankind must overcome. It is attainable.
We have come far - we will go further.
The necessary leap over that hurdle seems obvious to me. Greed focuses on the goal of growth, creativity focuses on the goal of development.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjqZ0aIAgFM ; Spam - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE ; Monty Python - Spam - YouTube
Yea..I'm pretty upset after getting edged out by Niger on the "Happy Planet index"
You fucking loosers...always searching for some poll to confirm your self loathing and how miserable you are
I would throw wisdom glue at you, but wise doesn't stick on stupid.
I love this post great ideas.
What do you think should be the goal of capitalism?
I apologize up front if sometimes my style seems harsh, but capitalism being an economic system does not process motives in my opinion. I’m not pointing this out to be an ass, but I believe that many in the country treat capitalism like a religion and then bend their knee to it as if their own judgment would be a sacrilege to consider. However public policy does have intent, and I firmly believe that public policy should benefit the many if possible without removing all incentive to excel. In general I believe that our country is strengthen when we have policies that result in the vigorous churning of our economy so opportunity and wealth are up for grabs for those that are smart enough and quick enough. I believe that most of our economic problems stem from the fact that so much of our capital has fallen, through inheritance, into weak hands.
Don't worry, I don't treat anything as a religion. I'm simply wondering if we are focusing on the wrong goals. Is GDP sacred? It shouldn't be. It should be open to discussion about how effective or ineffective it is and compared to newer ideas that come along. GDP measure production, but who benefits from all that production.
I think I was on point to this in another response to you, teach me to start two lines, I'm kinda new at this, (but even I know the way to keep control is not to take the bait, sorry troll fighting advice) bottom line is I fully agree with your positon that there are many measures and we should talk about many of them much more, esp. on the airwaves.
Spread the word.
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No, just bored.
edit: nothing but thrasymaque bashing going on around here.
edit 2: and Ron Paul spammers.
Hey, if there is a "happier place" that you would like to live - have at it.
One planet, to many idiots.