Forum Post: Should V E R M O N T Be Our Model?
Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 28, 2012, 11:16 p.m. EST by Odin
(583)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Recently Underdog put up a thread asking, "Should Sweden be our model?" I took a special interest in it since my dad was from Sweden, and I visited there this past summer. However, while UD's thread dealt mainly with political and financial issues, this thread does not for the most part. Instead my question is concerned with how people treat each other, and if indeed we could learn something from those Vermonters.
Having lived in Vermont for over twenty years, and raising three daughters there, I grew to love Vermont. It was a great place to raise kids. Many 'Flatlanders' who move there do so with a self-righteous smug attitude thinking they know better than the natives and longtime converts as to what is best for them.....and very humbly I will admit I was probably one of them. Hence native Vermonters are reluctant to accept outsiders too quickly. When you do prove yourself not to be an a...hole......and you are accepted......it is really very cool.
Just before Hurricane Irene hit, one of my daughters who still lives in Vermont was very concerned about me living on the Jersey Shore. She knew that I had a mandatory evacuation and wanted me to leave. Watching the storm closely, seeing how it was hugging the coast and weakening. I decided not to evacuate. Luckily I did not make a bad choice.
It turns out though that Vermont was one of the places that suffered most, not winds so much, but torrential rains. All over the state bridges and roads were washed out. Rivers were rerouted, residences and whole towns were isolated from the rest of the world. Homes were in the middle of rivers. It was a mess, but luckily my daughter who lives near the top of a mountain was ok.
I sat around for a couple of days checking it all out on my laptop here, before I remembered what Vermont had done for me and my family......the values, the kindness, the community spirit. Anyway, I loaded up the truck and headed north, not to be a gawking tourist, but to get 'dirty.'
In the five days I was there, everywhere we went we saw people helping people who desparately needed help, and they were all 'dirty' like my daughter and me. Churches and ordinary people that were unaffected had pot luck suppers for people that were suffering, and for the people that had volunteered to help them. One woman said that she would continue to have those suppers every day until they were no longer needed.
The state suspended many of the regulations concerning enviromental laws, road consrtuction regulations, etc. Federal, State, County, and local governments just went to work putting Vermont back together again. They were assisted by private enterprise, and even volunteers were working on road crews! Army Corp. of Engineers, State and privately owned excavators were sitting in the middle of rivers trying to reroute them back to where they were. Black Hawk and Chinook helicopters were bringing in MRE's and other supplies. It was amazing.
In a front page article in the NY Times entitled, "Vermont Rebounding Quickly From Hurricane Irene." The implication was clear........ the rest of the country could learn a lot from Vermont's tenacity and can do attitude.
NOW compare that to this. I asked a friend whose home was, amongst the many homes that were flooded out in north Jersey if anything like that VT type of community effort was evident where he was. He laughed at me and replied in his north Jersey accent, "Whatta ya kiddin'?"
I am not saying that Vermont is alone in that kind of spirit, and I do know it was evident in NYC after 9/11, but I do not think it is near as wide-spread in most places, and I think that many of us including me should think about that more. Afterall, it is an important part of what we are trying to do here at OWS, isn't it?
Taking a Break: Vermont Computer Lingo
Downloading.........that's when you unload the firewood off the truck Megahurts..that's what happens when you are not careful down loading Windows.... that's what you close when it is 20 below Micro-chips.....that's what is left in the bottom of the bag when the big chips are gone Hard drive.....that's when you are trying to get home during mud season What kind of four-wheel drive vehicles do Vermonters drive. Answer: They don't, they drive '63 Chevys, and put four cement blocks in the trunk.
Vermont also has a reputation of being one of the strongest enviromentally conscious states in the country. Words like 'sustainability' and 'organic' are not so foreign there. It is the East Coast's answer to Oregon, and it is not surprising that the some of the best enviromental law schools in the country are located in these two states, including Vermont Law School, where one of my daughters graduated from. (sorry couldn't help it)
Vermonters are also very supportive of the many cottage industries that start off there. Because of that strong early support this has often enabled them to become regioanal, multi-regional, and even international players. Examples are Otter Creek and Long Trail beer, Ben and Jerry's ice cream, Wood-Pecker Cider, a ton of different cheese producers including Cabot, and many of the natural and organic brands that you find in health food stores. This support is often reciprocated as many of these companies are very civic minded, perhaps none moreso than Ben and Jerrys, ie. Ben Cohen serving ice cream at Zuccotti Park---really cool
Edited: Kirby reminded me. How could I forget VT maple syrup?? The only place that you cannot legally inject anything into the trees to spur production, Right?
I will sum my case up for having Vermont as our model by quoting some of a speech by native Vermonter, President Calvin Coolidge after the great flood of 1927. It is an historic oratory called The Brave Little State of Vermont speech. He said, "I love Vermont because of her hills and valleys, her scenery and invigorating climate, but most of all because of her indomitable people. They are a race of pioneers who have almost beggared themselves to serve others. If the spirit of liberty should vanish in other parts of the Union, and support of our institutions should languish, it could all be replenished from the generous store held by the people of this brave little state of Vermont.
Case closed.
[Removed]
Iowa did the same thing in the floods of 2008....and Joplin Missouri last year after the tornado, neighbors helping each other by choice, with those afflicted helping right along with others, is MUCH different than the mandate by government that people contribute to things and situations they don't know or agree with for the benefit of those who may or may not ACTUALLY "need" assistance"....
This country DOES help each other by choice, but is hostile to being forced into surrendering the choice to do so...
you are just hostile to reason and common sense
we already have death panels
they are called health insurance companies - who go out of their way to deny payment for treatment, hoping you'll expire during the appeal process.
A friend of my mom actually quit her job as a doctor after years of insurances companies trying to tell her how to treat her patients and what they can have and what they can't have. She work in nutrition now.
The worst part about the origin of the term "death panels" in regards to universal healthcare was that the "end of life counseling" that the repubs spun into "death panels" was actual counseling for people with deadly illnesses that have no cure and for people who are going to die. Because we all die. Why wouldn't you want to establish the ground rules? Like with ALS, a deadly disease with no cure. I know this because a friend of mine died from ALS and received "end of life counseling." That part of the bill was just saying it would be covered.
No...the "Death Panel" idea is not about end of life counseling it is a natural progression that must occur in a centralized system, if you have ten people with advanced cancer and there are only three that can be treated because of limitations of care how are the three chosen?
Not by ability to pay, or because of charitable donation, as is now the case, who should be chosen to receive the treatment, and who should be denied? and as referenced by the higher mortality rate for things like breast cancer in countries with centralized healthcare systems, like Canada, and the UK, because patients are forced to wait for treatment...it isn't just high end, cutting edge care that is rationed......
and the rationing increases as the best practitioners leave the field and seek other opportunities....there have been many who have expressed that sentiment, if there isn't a high reward factor and lifestyle opportunity what draws people to the profession and the difficult and demanding struggle it takes to become a physician......Why do you think that doctors from other countries are not certified to practice in the United States? Their qualifications are substandard to our own...
No. The death panel ideas was a misinformed spin tactic used by the repubs based on the section in reference to end of life counseling. What you're talking about sounds more like the list people get on for transplant surgery because transplants are limited because, as of now, they can't just create new organs and must rely on organ donors.
Also insurance companies can turn down certain treatments and opt for others because of price or straight turn you down all together.
Misinformed spin huh? Here you go-
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/205361-rep-larry-bucshon-r-ind Why ObamaCare is bad medicine for seniors-1/20/2012
Third Paragraph-
"According to the American Medical Association, one in three primary care doctors currently limit the number of new Medicare patients and more than one in eight are forced to refuse new Medicare patients altogether. Even with this information, the provisions in ObamaCare cut $575 billion from Medicare, including $233 billion from Medicare Parts A and B and $145 billion from Medicare Advantage plans. These figures come directly from the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services’ (CMS) chief actuary report on the financial effects of ObamaCare. These are facts provided by the Obama administration on the future funding of Medicare. Additionally, beginning in 2015, ObamaCare will impose caps on the spending growth of Medicare each year. With access already an issue for many seniors, these cuts and caps on future growth will lead to further reductions in access to vital medical services. "
(Did you catch that? Your beloved Democrats and Obama cut $575 BILLION dollars from the beloved Medicare program right off the bat!)
5th Paragraph-
"If over half a trillion dollars in cuts were not enough, ObamaCare included another provision that could result in a European style of rationing of care based on age or severity of health problems. This 15-member bureaucratic panel appointed by the president, the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB), is intended to control future Medicare spending. If Medicare grows beyond its yearly target, then IPAB will make a recommendation of cuts. The only authority granted to Congress to prevent these recommendations from taking effect is to create our own package of cuts equally as large as IPAB’s or override the recommendations with a three-fifths super majority in the Senate. At the end of the day, cuts to Medicare will be all but guaranteed. With the previously mentioned cuts to Medicare, the only real option left is to begin rationing care to seniors by controlling the way physicians practice medicine. There is no reason to have unelected bureaucrats invading the doctor-patient relationship and manipulating medical decisions based on costs."
6th Paragraph- "One ironic result of IPAB is the strong bipartisan support for its repeal. Several House Democrats were opposed to the formation of this board. Dr. Phil Roe of Tennessee, a fellow physician, introduced a bill to repeal IPAB, which has received the support of 221 members, including Barney Frank and 14 other Democratic Members of Congress."
Get that part? IPAB is the "death panel". The "end of life counseling" thing was cut/revised in Obamacare in January of 2011. See this-http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/05/health/policy/05health.html?ref=us
"There is no reason to have unelected bureaucrats invading the doctor-patient relationship and manipulating medical decisions based on costs."
You mean, like the insurance companies do every single day?
More- http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/264988/ipab-obama-and-socialism-stanley-kurtz
http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/29/lame-duck-barney-frank-joins-effort-to-repeal-obamacare-death-panels/
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/04/20/ipab-suddenly-under-the-spotlight/
The pharmaceutical industry holds much sway over treatments in this country. They have corrupted the health-care system. Not so much in other countries, where in many cases they have longer life expectancies. Anyway, my point is that doctors who are not allowed to pracice in this country are not necessarily less qualified in terms of positive outcomes for their patients......rather they just haven't been trained in what is OUR idea (?) of good health-care which of course is taking a never ending supply of medications which often treat only the symptons, not the disease. All this often with great side effects that are overlooked.
Preventive medicine, life-style changes, and good nutrition have been a people driven REVOLUTION where the medical profession and pharmaceutical industry have been dragged along and forced to accept, and it is much further advanced in other western countries than here in this country. Even a friend in Sweden who works for the big pharma company AstraZeneca agreed with me on the corrupting influence of the pharmaceutical companies, privately of course. In fairness though she is not a scientist, but she is in low level management at least.
On a personal level, I have found that my Trek bicycle and eating better has been my best medication. Very humbly I will admit that much of what I learned about life-style changes, better nutrition, etc. was from my kids and not my doctors. I have logged over 5,000 miles in the last three years. Before I started this, I was out of breath if I walked over 500 feet. From that..... to easily being able to bike over 25 miles in a day, averaging better than 16 mph. Other than falling on my face when I hit a a patch of ice one night, no problems. My hard-headedness which is common in Scandinavians for once in my life at least has worked out well for me, so far anyway. If you don't see any more posts from me..... then you can conclude that I was wrong!! heeeee In the meantime I enjoy life, and am very committed to the OWS cause.
I have received great coverage from our insurance. Without it I would be dead a few times already. The terms of my policy are very clear, with certain maximums and limitations of course.
You should really see that Bill Moyer, Wendall Potter interview that someone else mentioned in a post, and check out my other response I gave to slammersworld. I do not suggest that you follow what I did. Believe me though, without getting any more personal, I can tell you that my prognosis was not good before I made the changes that I needed to make. One of my kids was especially annoying to me during this process, as she was constantly on me to improve my life-style. I even set up a special ring-tone for her in case I was at the bar or eating processed food or something! She never gave up on me, and I will always be grateful to her for that. It all begins with baby steps in the right direction, and it does not mean that you can't deviate from it once in a while.
and they do it based on the Medicare rules for payment......don't kid yourself
they do it in the interest of their stock holders
out of supreme indifference to those who have paid premiums and are in need of the services they paid for
medicare has little to do with it
Many people invest in healthcare through their retirement plans, thus benefit financially. Again, each policy has it's own limitations and coverages. Sometimes they are shitty. One gets what is paid for, never more.
Read above. Obama care cut $575 BILLION dollars from Medicare right off the top. But there's more.
"If over half a trillion dollars in cuts were not enough, ObamaCare included another provision that could result in a European style of rationing of care based on age or severity of health problems. This 15-member bureaucratic panel appointed by the president, the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB), is intended to control future Medicare spending. If Medicare grows beyond its yearly target, then IPAB will make a recommendation of cuts. The only authority granted to Congress to prevent these recommendations from taking effect is to create our own package of cuts equally as large as IPAB’s or override the recommendations with a three-fifths super majority in the Senate. At the end of the day, cuts to Medicare will be all but guaranteed. With the previously mentioned cuts to Medicare, the only real option left is to begin rationing care to seniors by controlling the way physicians practice medicine. There is no reason to have unelected bureaucrats invading the doctor-patient relationship and manipulating medical decisions based on costs."
And yet those damn...what do you call them..."Repelicans" tried to STOP this beautiful healthcare plan from being enacted! And you say they are the ones who want to hack away at Medicare...tsk tsk...
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/264988/ipab-obama-and-socialism-stanley-kurtz
Medicare sets up the reasonable and customary charges.......
I guess you don't know so much...
No they do not. Medicare does have a fee reimbursement schedule, but private insurers work from an entirely different price scheme (which the government has nothing to do with). Moreover, we're not talking about physician fees, we're talking about denying coverage altogether (which has absolutely nothing to do with fees).
they do have a different set of criteria, but the medicare "reasonable and customary" is still the standard....I used to be in medical insurance sales.......thanks
One may borrow from the other (in terms of ICD9 and CPT codes, and diagnosis/procedure descriptions), but the fees are different (Medicare reimbursement fees are generally lower than private insurer reimbursement fees).
Medicare is a public program (not a private insurer) ... and private insurance companies do not follow Medicare rules (nor do they have any obligation to). Additionally, I'm not aware of Medicare routinely denying coverage for critical care.
you're not aware?...so that means it doesn't happen, right?
Medicare does routinely prohibit certain things, and they do it by not reimbursing doctors for certain procedures, or only partially reimbursing them.......But, doctors don't have the ability to refuse care once the patient is accepted, paid for or not.....so it becomes a billing issue, and a funding issue for doctors...many of whom DO NOT treat medicare patients for that reason.....
But this is different from "Medicare rules" having any impact on private insurers (which is what I was eluding to).
I wish you were done w/ your Vermont BS
I am glad to hear that you have the same type of communithy spirit in Missouri, and I suspect that it is more evident in rural areas. It's late, but I will comment on the rest of your post tomorrow. I just want to check a couple things for accuracy.
I agree with you that much of what government does could be done better by altruistic people helping people. I also believe that there are people that are simply looking for something for nothing and that is a real problem. That is not what OWS is about though.
I remember meeting two farmers at Zuccotti Park back in late October. They had a sign too, but I can't remember what it said. They played the part of farmers in their overalls and a flannel shirts. I started to talk to them and I was amazed that they had come from the mid-west somewhere. When you live on the East Coast, that means anything west of Pennsylvania. Anyway, I do remember them saying that laws were written for the benefit of corporate farmers, and that that fact made it very difficult for them to survive. I am not pandering to you in saying that this movement is about fair play, and having a truly representative democracy. That's all.
There are MANY towns and cities and places in America where people do this-chip in and get dirty when the going gets rough. It's far more wide spread than New Yorkers could possibly imagine.
No. That state is too soft on crime. Especially child molesters.
Child abuse and child protective services (SRS in Vermont) are problems throughout the country. I learned a lot about that while living in Vermont, and no not because I was ever accused. Some kids who are being abused and that should be taken away from their parents are not, and in other instances children are taken away without doing thorough investigations. Also children who were justly taken away from their parents languish in foster-care for years and years, bouncing from family to family. Why? Because states make more money keeping them in foster care. States can't possibly be that callous, you think. Think again! An intelligent young lady in Vermont named Charlotte Lopez spent nearly her whole childhood and nearly all of her adolescence in foster care until at 17 years of age she demanded that they adopt her out. SRS finally relented. She went on to become Miss Teenage USA, and later wrote a book called Lost in The System, where she told her story. It was an embarassment to Vermont, and so it should have been. She was not lost though. They knew exactly where she was and it worked out well $$$ for them to keep her there. Then you have State Senator Sears, Bennington County Vermont who runs a home for troubled youth. That's where the big money is. Oddly he did a judicial review of VT Supreme Court Justice Denise Johnson who was very, very critical of SRS in some of her rulings, and hence jeopardized Sen SEARS livelihood. Nobody thought that was a conflict of interest AMAZINGLY! Like I said these problems were, and possibly still are pervasive through out the country. I believe in historical accuracy. Vermont is a wonderful place, but that part is not, and neither is it in most other states. The common denominator is the perverse incentive funding method from HHS.
They make damn good maple syrup, that's for sure.
And we have almost no repelicans serving in the state legislature . . .
it's the wave of the future . . . .
we???But you do have a republican Governor still don't you? The difference from Washington is they work together in Montpelier hence they are not in a state of polarization. Right?
Odin --- not to get picky, but my thread was an assertion that Sweden SHOULD be our model and not a rhetorical question (SHOULD Sweden be our model?). Btw, I think your original post above is excellent. People SHOULD help each other at all times and not just in a crisis. If everyone did that, just imagine what this country could accomplish.
Good post.
Having Sweden as our model....maybe that should be our goal. I might have mistakenly thought it was a question, but not a rhetorical one. I wish that I had learned more about their system, and their feelings about their system, when I was there this past summer. It is unlike me not to do so. However we were there to explore and visit family, some of whom I have not seen in over 40 years, and other cousins whom I have never met. We were also celebrating the 80th anniversary of my dad coming here on the sailing ship Chapman, which is today tied up in Stockholm and is a youth hostel and restaurant.
I simply don't feel that I know enough about Sweden's system, to comment on it very intelligently other than the chirps I put on your thread, which by the way did back up your point on a different level. I can also 'report back' that I didn't run into anyone that seemed to be in despair, or was carrying around protest signs, or getting arrested, no one camping out in parks for political reasons, or was bitching........like we are.... about their country' going down the tubes!' So I would guess they are relatively happy with their form of government. That's about the best analysis I can give you, superficial as it is!
On another note, I have just gotten back from an OWS demonstration at Washington Park, by NYU. Mostly by luck, I have gotten close to the core of this movement in NYC, and I can tell you that the mostly young people that are the closest to the core are very intelligent, very determined, and are very organized. The movement seems to diversify more and more in terms of age, color of skin, and economic status. They also realize the importance of reaching out to the timid.... and more conservative, older generation, and are working on several projects to do just that. I have been helping them by letting them know how things are "playing in Preoria", as I live in an area that is much more conservative. I have also reminded them that grandma does not want to hear about a revolution!!.....a sea change...OK. They already know much of what I offer them because like I said they are bright kids. Anyway, I know they will not accept any band-aid fixes, and hence they also know that this will not be easy.
Great response and thanks. I am 56 and no youngster, but I believe just as strongly as if I were 20-something in what they are trying to do. Most people can sense something isn't right about this country, but are just too distracted with life (jobs, raising kids, etc) to spend any time educating themselves as to what is really going on behind the scenes.
Here are a few links you might be interested in.
This one is a study that show that 92% of Americans favor the Swedish model. Kind of detailed, but worth the read.
http://www.people.hbs.edu/mnorton/norton%20ariely%20in%20press.pdf
Here is a YouTube video that talks about the Fed and Fractional Reserve Banking. It will really open your eyes if you don't already know this. About 10 minutes long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm3DixfL9o0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Here is the longest video. An interview with Bill Moyers and Wendall Potter regarding the Healthcare system in the US. 37 minutes long, but again, very enlightening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QwX_soZ1GI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Thanks. I often try to inject al little dry humor in my responses as you can see. I saw the Wendall Potter interview recently. It is amazing how people are led to believe how our health-care system is so great as is. Why then are we so far down on the life longevity list if it is so great? I will check out the other links tonight. This is a great forum for debating ideas, and I try hard to make people understand what this movement is about using logic and reason in how this corrupt system may have; stil is; or will play out on them or a loved one. All the niceties go out the window though when I run into someone whos brain has shut down a decade or more ago. Yes, I know that some people do not have the time to educate themselves on whats going on due to raising families, work, and the many other things in their lives. I was one of them, as I was well into my 40's (I'm 59) before I realized that what I read in the papers and saw on television news was screwed up. In contrast, these kids know that in their twenties!
By the way you should improve your debating skills. For all the long winded exahanges (back and forth) we have had on you trying to convince me to support Obama, I was unconvinced. Then late one night just before I was ready to shut down my LT, a post came up and in just two sentences this poster who areed with you said something that really made me rethink my principled position. He reminded me that the next president will have at least one Supreme Court Justice appointee, and maybe two. Hmmm
If you ever have three hours with nothing to do, I highly suggest watching this interview. No link, just google up Chris Hedges Brace Yourself. It's a CSpan interview and it is well worth watching. One of the questions from a call-in was something to the effect of, "What can an older dispensable man like myself do to ensure that my grandkids grow up in a better world?" I plan on taking Mr. Hedges advice very soon. ???
Odin, as a follow-up to my previous response, I forgot to mention something about my "debating skills" as you call them. I actually don't try to get into a debate with people. Wherever possible, I try to use cold, hard, well-researched/documented FACTS (if I can find them) and let the facts do the convincing. If someone reads and truly understands the facts, and still holds an entrenched position, well, I usually will not spend much more time trying to change that persons mind. It is equivalent in my mind to providing proof that the world is round and someone continuing to hold to the position that it is flat. What is the point of continuing to try to reason with someone like that?
My experience is that most people are more committed to winning an argument than coming to any type of consensus on the truth. People get something in their head and it is very difficult to reason them out of it, even with indisputable (or almost indisputable) facts. That's just human nature, and I freely admit to pleading guilty on that too a great deal of the time (just ask my wife!!! :)
I actually don't like argument very much. I am not a skilled debater and could not hold my own in a live verbal debate. Those venues remind me of shows like Crossfire, etc. that rapidly turns into a circus of interruptions, off-point sidetracking, a plethora of logical fallacies too numerous to mention, and other "kitchen room table" free-for-alls. I can't see ANYTHING useful coming out of that, at least I never have that I can remember.
What I like about blogging is that a person can take their time, check their facts, word-smith their responses as carefully as possible, and try to work toward consensus without the normal distraction, emotion, and illogical reasoning that frequently accompanies live, verbal debates. That is the chief reason I participate in blogs.
I must end this by saying that I don't always respond with facts, because sometimes there aren't any readily available. I then, like you, try to use logic and reason to win someone over, if possible.
Above all, I think people should try to be open-minded and pursue an objective search for Truth. Truth is almost a sacred thing (perhaps it is sacred).
That said, do you have any suggestions for improving my debating skills as you said? I'm always open to trying to improve myself and learning from others. I know I can be long-winded. Is that the chief issue or do I just fail in logic?
UD, we can both have the same facts derived from the same places, and come up with different conclusions as to what policies (or whatever) we should follow in this movement. We are like-minded on most issues concerning the policies or the path that OWS should follow, but we do differ on some things . Does that mean that you are right, and I am wrong or vice versa. No of course not. Why? Because like you, I apply those facts to my values, what's most important to me. Since we are both liberal minded though, we are also able to think about society in general as well as individuals.
While I knew that Obama would probably be appointing at least one (Ginzberg) Supreme Court justice, I didn't give much thought to it may even be two, and I had forgotten the long range implications of that, which will affect this country for a generation. So to my credit, it has made me rethink my position, and I humbly told you that. Light-heartedly I teased you about that, but that clearly irked you.
Over the years I have definitely been able to change my positions on some issues. I originally thought Obamacare was a good thing for instance....... to realizing that it was just welfare for the insurance companies. That change came well before my involvement with OWS. I have also been able to appreciate the importance of some of the issues in OWS that come from many of the younger people who will be around for another 40 or more years than me and hence they have a different perspective. I now realize that the corporate domination that we have experienced for the past 30 or more years has been a slow insidious creep which I had either gotten used and didn't notice, or thought that it was something that I was helpless to change. Not sure still.
I have enjoyed my exhanges with you. I am a person who usually searches for the right word like you, and is regularly looking up words on my phone app, and two dictionaries that are close by so that I am able to express myself well. I only succeed some of the time, but my goal is to do better and be able to say a lot with few words.
My advice?....lighten up. You are welcome to make the last comment on this issue.
Wow! Now see...that is very interesting. Up to this moment I would not have thought of you as "liberal-minded" as I drew the incorrect conclusion that you seemed to be arguing a great deal of the time for the conservative side of things. Such is the down-side to the faceless written word which contains no subtleties of body language and voice inflection in live debate.
I admit that I do not interpret the printed word very well when the person thinks they are making a subtle jab/tease. On these posts people can range in their responses from extremely subtle to blatantly obvious. If a person is only teasing, in order for there not to be miscommunication, it is usually best to indicate that with emoticons or parenthetical clarity such as (joke) or (ha, ha!). That is why people use emoticons. They attempt to convey the spirit of the persons mind that sometimes is lost in written communication.
I too have enjoyed our exchanges. I feel like I am beginning to get to know you a little better now. When conversing with strangers via the written word that can take awhile. And the nature of most discussion on OWS is serious, so I am inclined to take people literally whereas other blog sites such as Facebook for example are clearly on the more casual or light-hearted side.
Regarding your first paragraph above, it may help you to know that most of my responses are presented with the general welfare of the nation in mind and not any particular values that I might personally hold. Why? Because I am just one tiny water molecule in a vast ocean of water (to use a rather crude analogy), and what happens to me personally is just not that important. But what happens to millions of people is. And that is why I am blogging on this site.
Sorry if I come across serious all the time, but what is being debated here is serious (most of the time). However, rest assured that I like puppies and do not beat my grandchildren :-)
Understood.....don't agree with everything......being liberal minded has little to do with political ideology.....time to move on knowing that we both care deeply about this country and are willing to sacrifice our time and energy to make it a better one. For me that has meant active participation in rallies, 9 mi. marches, paying off two cc's, filling cc offer envelopes with junk mail and sending them back with an OWS sticker, switching to a credit union, reaching out through letters to the editor for this and other issues such as xenophobia, corrupt SRS (no I have never been accused), racism, prison industrial complex etc.,... calling my three reps in Washington, and....the big one for me (coming soon) an act of peaceful civil disobedience which I will spend the night in jail for. For me, this is not about liberal or conservative. I have no desire to have either classification put on me. This is about right and wrong for me which is based on the values that were handed down to me. I in turn have nurtured them, hopefully improved upon them, and passed them on to to my kids and so it goes...That's who I am. Let's move on.
Agreed. But glad we had this discussion to better understand each other.
Cool, now let's get back to VT being our model. I am on that thread, aren't I?...........blogging, is that what we are doing...always wanted to, just to embarassed to call my kids to ask them how.... heeee....see I'm learning
Fyi, Blog is short for weB LOG. Yep, you're a blogger and didn't know it. See, the insidious nature of technology continues (just kidding) :-)
Hmmm. I don't actually recall advocating anyone vote for Obama, unless it is interpreted as implied by my obvious progressive liberal Democratic viewpoints.. I am more for changing the system itself, and don't think that any one man/woman who sits in the Oval Office, regardless of party affiliation, has much of a chance of doing that (although I would be thrilled if someone in that job could actually do something to level the playing field for everyone in the country).
I'll see if i can make time to watch the interview. Thanks for your input.
I may have misinterpreted or lumped you in with someone who did support those views, my apologies. We both are going the same way though as I am unconvinced that our system can ever be a just and equitable one.
Nope - Douglas is working at Middlebury College now.
We do have a repelican Lt. Governor.
Our current Governor, Peter Shumlin, is a dem.
OK, thanks for the update. So it was almost all dems who got you guys out of the mess you were in after Irene. I do not think too much of D Sen Sears, Ben Co though. In NJ, it is difficult to vote for them though as everyone knows how corrupt this state is. I got my new granddaughter a cup and bowl from Danforth Pewter. They are based in Middlebury, I think. Also we had a girl from Russia staying with us who went on to Middlebury College, which is a great school. Protect VT's honor for me today as I will be in NYC taking part in CD. It may be two days if I get arrested.
It's a small enough state, and the solutions to problems like Irene fairly self evident - suspending the permitting process when it came to rebuilding roads was I believe a no brainer, and quite likely an admin of either party would have pushed that forward.
The biggest differences between party remain on issues like energy - Douglas favors Entergy and their Vt. Yankee nuke plant, Shumlin does not - and for some very good reasons. They have not been an honest partner when it comes to statements they have made over the current condition of the plant, and we are expected to trust them when it comes to setting aside money for decommissioning.
Which they will not do, of course. I think it was a mistake to have allowed the previous owners to sell. I also think it's a mistake to allow a nuke plant to be privately owned. But that's me.
I have been following the VT Yankee conntroversy somewhat and we have a situation here that mirrors it. I live near Oyster Creek nuclear power plant which is the oldest one in the country. They continue to have problems and the NRC overlooks it all. I think they have been relicensed to 2019 which is BS. It is also privately owned.
I think all of them are privately owned. I think that is crazy, given the costs of cleanup, the fact that incorporation provides legal mechanisms to avoid responsibility and pressure to do so in the interest of stock holders.
When a plant reaches the end of its life cycle it is predictable that the company will attempt to get it recommissioned - and they can even engage in a bit of blackmail by not having money on hand for decommissioning, thereby placing a threat before the public without ever saying anything - that the public will bear the cost of decommissioning if they are not relicensed.
I don't like any of it.
Yes and the NRC is just their lap dog that always sides with the industry and plays down all the problems.
Entergy signed a contract with the state stipulating they would abide by the state's decision when it came time to relicense. they never thought that the state wouldn't go along.
So much for contractual obligation . . .
It is amazing what you can do with a good lawyer. You should never had let my daughter leave VT, to practice law in Alaska, as she graduated magna cum laude from Fordham, and in top 10% in her class at VLS. She has stated to me that she would never work for corporate America, and turned down an offer of help from her cousin's husband who is a partner in one one of Washington's most powerful law/lobbying firms.
On a side note: Have you ever eaten Christmas dinner with a picture of your niece, her husband, and President Bush perched over the table on a shelf?? I have. It isn't pretty.
Anyway, I know she would have been on your side and that Vermont Yankee would be shut down by now if only you Vermonters had had the good sense to keep her in Vermont!!!! heeee
We voted the dems out last time, like most of the country. We'll see what the future holds though. I did get 6 gallons of finished syrup last season. Ratio was 35:1, the best season ever for us.
Yeah my VT daughter keeps me supplied in the brown gold, and we both keep the rest of the family in Alaska supplied. It is the only place in North America that you legally can't inject enzymes into the tree to spur production, right? I always got a kick out of the trades-people in VT who took time off from their occupations to boil sap. It was neat how they felt it important to carry on that tradition, even though it made no econonic sense for them. I truly have a lot of respect for Vermonters and know that when you have a friend in them, you usually have a good loyal friend. Also learned never to call an electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc during hunting season! heee It worked out well as I learned to do more and more of that myself.
How could I forget that---might have to edit. Thanks Kirb