Forum Post: Should there be another forum?
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 6, 2011, 12:56 p.m. EST by MichaelFerrer
(63)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Myself and others discussed, in a series of deleted posts, the potential utility of starting a forum off-site that would not be so free-for-all as this one, being focused on establishing a set of 'demands' and working to make those as actionable and specific as possible.
Protesting, this Occupation, is a great way to establish a space for conversation and consciousness-raising, but without a specified agenda it won't amount to much. It may be the case that the 'official' organs of OWS, by virtue of their very openness, can't settle on an exclusive strategy that would be taken up outside of the context of the protest sites. But surely the energy that's accumulating through this movement will need some definite vehicles to express itself, and work to accomplish whatever aims it can be said to have, outside of the framework of mere organized dissent.
What I have in mind, personally, would be a forum for discussion dedicated to attracting, or developing strategies to attract, actual economists, lawyers, political scientists, etc., to help forge a platform that could translate the energies of the movement into actionable legal and economic language, identifying specific targets of activity in the juridical and economic infrastructure.
To that end, would it be profitable to start a forum off-site? I imagine that this is inevitable anyway: certainly the significance of OWS and the attendant occupations will be to encourage people to organize and take action in a variety of ways. But I suppose what I have in mind at the moment would be some kind of forum for meta-commentary, consolidating the most serious and compelling ideas that are appearing throughout the Occupation and its online organs, and working to expand on them in a forum where that activity can at once more concentrated and easy to survey. That forum, then, would be composed (obviously) of members from this one, to begin with, and would maintain a dialogue with this forum, perhaps maintaining some index of its presence on reddit and any other online organs that develop around the Occupation. It would not be a 'general discussion board,' which is what this forum represents. It would be a forum for strategy and planning around a delimited set of aims (arriving at which would be the first order of business).
Would this be worth doing? Who might be interested in joining up?
I'm in.
The site http://www.occupytogether.org has a number of forums discussing many aspects of policy, and I have made several posts on that site for that very reason. But it has less energy. As a practical matter, I like the mechanics of how the forums works on this site better.
social networking site with forum now up http://www.ioccupy.org
Please help support www.openassembly.org
We are open source and designed to facilitate decentralized movements that need to compile information and make decisions.
We could use more support, but we have been developing this for a long time. We really need to try to focus our ideas and energy, to really gain momentum. We can't do that spreading that energy across so many forums, facebook, and IRC.
Join openassembly and post some ideas!
I think the distributed leaderless approach of ows.org could work with just a few minor tweaks to the structure. Being able to up-vote or down-vote posts by relevance to the movement. Being able to sort by relevance. Being able to sort by some algorithm like (relevance +10) / (time) to get the newest and fastest rising posts. Topics, tags, or categories. These are all light weight additions that could be implemented fairly quickly. I've mentioned them before but with how fast posts move down the list I might as well repost.
It is discouraging to have good discussions vanish into obscurity amidst a wash of generally ignored posts of little value, and to see it happen in less than a day is even more discouraging...
This forum 'broke the Matrix' of 'controlled discussion', where someone will decide what the most serious issues are, etc.
It's brilliant the way it is.
If the crowd isn't there because of centralized control, then it can't be stopped. If you want to guide them, then you have to convince them, otherwise they'll just go home.
Look, you can start a blog for free, comments and all. Just do it. Then see if anyone follows you.
Besides, I saw the answer to your question already posted. They are working on it. Constantly harping because it isn't done, six hours after he told you he hadn't slept for 40 hours, is just plain impolite.
I'm not "complaining" because "it" isn't done, because I am plainly talking about creating something else altogether, which isn't the responsibility of the moderators here.
I was really disappointed with the way jart handled things, and I think that response created a situation where things turned unnecessarily sour. I never once (since I only reposted the exact same set of concerns) demanded that things be 'fixed' right away. My request was that they be literally addressed, i.e., that the mods communicate in some way their intentions to the general forum; and beyond that, to try and encourage some concerted effort to attack the misuse of the 'demands' posts on here by the media. Apparently I went about it the wrong way (although I still think that the quality of discussions outweighed the irritant of the tactic), but I don't know how else I could've, or anyone could've, gone about raising those questions. I expect the last thing the admins need is another direct email pointing out issues they were working on...but again, the point was just that there should have been, and should still be, some attempt by the mods to communicate with the rest of the forum. I continue to think that the failure to do so, in the context of a movement about radical democracy, and the tone taken with regards to my tactics or the concerns being raised, is frankly bizarre and tin-eared. Although, as I already said, I'm willing to put that down to sheer exhaustion and exasperation. I am sure they're overworked and I really don't mean to contribute to that feeling, or to any sort of oppositional tone. But it just doesn't take that long to make a post saying "We're working on things." Spelling that out in a defensive tone in the comments section of a thread that then goes on to be deleted is not productive.
Hank, where is the post saying it's being worked on? Thanks.
Ha, looks like it's been removed, too.
This is probably why:
From Jart--
"I can't believe you brought this up again in another thread. Thank you for your concern... but I'm a reactionary now? For removing the post you submitted eight times in a row? It's so funny that you should accuse me of such things at the same time when our comrades in LIberty Square are being assaulted, kettled, and barricaded on all four sides by the police. Innocent people are being pepper sprayed and thrown in jail thanks to the tyranny of American government and you're up in arms about not being able to assert dominance over an internet message board? Where exactly do your priorities lie?
You, and the others who participated in derailing the forum tonight, have wasted my time as well as the time of our readers. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves."
Yeah, that response just seems defensive and beside-the-point to me. I'm not sure how to get around the fact that a series of supposedly disruptive posts (that were still productive of substantive commentary) were deleted on an 'anarchistic' forum dedicated to a radical democratic movement, and I don't like the insinuation that my or others' online activity is somehow intrinsically disrespectful to the protestors. In my opinion, the response of deleting threads (and then deleting threads about threads being deleted) was much more distracting and counterproductive than my original reposts. But this doesn't seem like a worthwhile topic to keep addressing.
Agree. I was talking about abusing the generosity of the people that actually put the website up, pay for it, and so on.
It's a free country. Make your own, run it the way you want! Don't demand that a free resource provided by another conform to your idea of how it should be run, and then abuse it trying to make your point. You realize what that looks like, right? You realize that those who you demand do this work might not appreciate that, right?
That's my point in response to the argument that the idea I'm talking about should just be kept within the confines of this forum, since that seems to me to involve asking or expecting the folks behind this site to carve out a forum, or to retool this forum, to specifications. So, yes, in short, I think the only reasonable course of action for everyone (including myself) complaining that this forum lacks focus and organization is to start another one offsite, and to worry about how that would be defined in relation to the 'official' fora once it's up and running. I really don't want to give the impression that what I have in mind would have any sort of oppositional relationship with this forum; I would want it, as I've said, to be co-operative with this site and with the organizers. One wonders if it's possible for there to be a splinter group from a 'leaderless' organization.
I think a better forum is important, although I'd prefer it be here. It we can't have a better forum here for either technical reasons (e.g., hosting software issues) or other reasons (e.g., no one with admin access having time to do it) then I think it would be good to have it elsewhere.
I don't know exactly what you mean by "meta-commentary". I think it would be nice to have a typical forum setup but the goal could be to collaborate on some sort of aims. Also, if this website were set up I'd like to see admins from this set having admin access on that one too, so that they could monitor its integrity (obviously it would be bad if the "official" OWS website was actually run and moderated by a bunch of people who support the fusion of corporation and state).
Finally, it makes sense to work on the site being secure, so it'd be good to have someone who knew what they were doing. It'd be a problem if a large forum was built up and then, say, the hosting provider was easily pressured to simply delete it or something (for example, I don't know how reliable and large-scale those free phpBB websites are that you can easily get).
By 'meta-commentary,' I mean surveying what's been said here and trying to separate out what's really viable from what's hot air and ranting. And then building a forum around that, delimiting from the outset what sort of discussion would be allowed. Part of this is 'philosophical' (distinguishing 'the message' from the noise), and part of it is practical (the same, distinguishing the message from the noise, but as a matter of formatting).
I see. Thanks for the clarification Michael. If a better forum doesn't spring up here I'd help you and participate in another. But since it might grow rapidly and be very important to the movement, I think being careful on how it's set up is important, so it would probably be good to consult with some people who have more experience setting a good forum up (perhaps distortion for example).
Absolutely, that's what I'm trying to do. And again, the intention would be to have a forum that is in dialogue with this one (and whatever might grow out of it should the physical OWS dissolve). I have no expertise in creating websites or fora. I simply have the idea, and at the very least I do trust my instincts as an editor, and I think (don't we all?) that I have some good idea of what counts, or should count, as the core concerns of the movement. I am as supportive of the physical occupation as I can be with a 15-mo daughter to take care of; I'd like to be there more but it's just not really an option for me. My personal interests and abilities are really more inclined towards something like this (potential) project, which is the sort of thing that needs (I think) to happen both in addition to and in the wake of the physical occupations, in order to ensure the sustainability of the movement.
Okay great. If it ends up happening please let me know. I'd love to participate in the discussion.
Smart post. In a way, this forun has become a perfect proxy for the occupation: random, unfocused, heavy on complaints, light on substance and solutions, increasingly bitter, generally useless if measured by progress made. On the bright side, I'm warm, have food and dont have to contemplate stitching my own sleeping bag. Question is, how will you "screen" potential posters, regardless of where the new forum exists and how its structured?
That is a good question and I am thinking about it. I think the moderating process could, to begin with, be fairly draconian compared with this forum. Which, again, involves placing oneself (uh, myself, I guess) in the position of making executive decisions and putting a personal stamp on the proceedings, which may make people uncomfortable, but I trust that the emergent quality and content of the site would hopefully attract people who are put off by the street-rant quality of this forum, so the contributors would more or less sort themselves out, if this took off. I think the initial step would be making the forum's goal and rules clear from the outset. If people want to play by those rules, then cool, if not, they have plenty of other places to go to stomp their feet and shout about [whatever]. Like I said, I really foresee the purpose of this forum-to-be to be trying to attract people who can help translate the diffuse goals of the Occupation into highly specific legal and political goals that are nevertheless radical.
and actually, what we have now isn't a forum... it's a message board, it's labeled forum but it's not, and a message board is no way to collaborate and discuss
Indeed. That's my distinction in a nutshell.
So, without wanting to request or corral your efforts/abilities, as a web developer, what would you say needs to happen towards the development of a viable forum? What would be the best format, do you think? If I and others are just hellbent on taking things offsite, what would be your advice for what happens next?
theres tons of freeware forum building software out there that pretty much does it for you with no effort. The problem isn't creating it, thats easy, the problem is where to put it and how to direct people there. You can probably find a free place to host it, but if you want it to be legit your going to want a url like forum.occuppywallst.org. I would talk to the jart and find out if they'll let you host it on this site or use the url and make it a legitimate forum for this movement. Change the forum link in the menu bar to say message have a forum link that goes to the actual forum. Or shell out for the money to buy a domain name and host space and see if you can get a sticky or link on here to the forum
Ha, I'm guessing that 'the jart' (is that not some person's username? It's a general admin name?) would not be up for hosting anything of 'mine' at this point.
I think things are taking shape with Laguy and Zetaboards, below. Hafta figure out exactly what setting something up there would consist of/look like.
talk to him/them and see what their thoughts are and let them know the users on this site are wanting one or we're going to start an occupy occupywallst.org
I agree with you, Michael. It certainly wouldn't hurt anything.
We need a solutions thread. How can we implement real solutions RIGHT NOW to show people there is a better alternative. we need alternatives in banking, housing, farming/food, clean energy. and as a group we can support these solutions, while removing ourselves from THEIR instruments
I agree, we need a better discussion platform that allows us to move forward instead of running around in circles.
Are you aware of this:
http://www.openassembly.org/index.html
I wasn't aware of that, thanks for pointing out.
I'm going to have to spend some time with this to figure out where it fits in with what I'm proposing (or where what I'm proposing could fit in with it).
I like the idea of beginning with a sort of 'clearinghouse' approach where the best ideas circulating around the Occupation and online vehicles like this one are consolidated and pinned down for discussion. If this is what that is, then like I said above, I would rather throw my support behind something that's already extant than just contribute to some more-confusing fracturing, since the point would be unity and condensation.
Really not sure what to make of that, frankly. It seems a little dead-in-the-water and depersonalized, and I don't know that a framework for online voting is what I'd be after, personally. It seems interesting and I like the mission statements, but I'm not sure if it's being implemented in an especially compelling way. Maybe it does just need more support.
Hey www.openassembly.org is open source and has been developed for a long time. The site started on reddit. We definitely need some support, but it's a powerful tool for organization andare forming consensus online!
But we definitely need some framework for voting. Otherwise it will be hard to not see this movement fractured. Please add some ideas to Open Assembly!
There are already demands being voted on. Though I don't know how official they are.
There definitely needs to be another forum. But this site is where it needs to be. There's plenty of us on here who are web developers that could have a real forum up on this site by the end of the day. But i think it needs to be here, anyone whose been on a forum long enough know that the second you start spawning off sibling forums it doesn't stop, people keep trying to make their own forum for it and the members die off.
Indeed, that would be my concern, and that's why I'm raising the question. But my point is partly that I wonder if this site should really be expected to host the kind of forum I'm talking about. Is that really within the purview of the OWS structure? That seems like a fairly decisive point, and this was basically the gist of the conversations yesterday: if it's possible to frame this sort of forum in the context of this site, then that's tantamount to identifying OWS (which I'm taking to be shorthand for the occupation movement as a whole) with a specific set of demands, and that seems to be part of what the organizers are resisting. The problem is, and this again seems to be what the organizers would be trying to resist, that any decisive strategical framework and set of aims is ultimately going to require some executive decisions that feature the personal stamp of a particular set of (more or less 'self-appointed') 'leaders.' My reason for wanting to create another forum off-site would be so that I, and whomever else, am not asking the moderators and organizers of this site to assume that sort of responsibility, or to change the laissez faire nature of this forum. So I'm not sure that what I'm talking about can be supported by this site, or what that would look like.
I see your point, but like mentioned before, theres probably already a ton of forums up for that. But if you can put one up and find a way to direct people there than more power to you.
If any moderators have input into this question, PLEASE RESPOND.
Anyone can start a forum. Personally I like the free for all low moderation environment we have here. It resembles what is going down on the street a lot, and those who are most educated and bring the most facts will end up controlling the message here as others learn from them.
smart post.
this issues is being discussed on other forums all over the internet
Well then, again, the point of actually doing something and having a place to consolidate all of that discussion is a valid point to raise. Do you know of anything like that already in existence? If there's someplace else to go already that is doing the same thing, then I'd rather throw my support behind that, rather than participate in some endless Protestant fracturing. But if there is not some clearinghouse site along the lines I'm describing above, then I'd like to get started on that immediately, and I'd like to know if anyone else would want to help me with that, especially since I have zero experience developing websites. :-)