Forum Post: sad but true - we cannot legislate bigotry and stupidity away
Posted 11 years ago on July 17, 2013, 10:08 a.m. EST by bensdad
(8977)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
but we CAN legislate the end of the nra / alec
STAND YOUR GROUND
And although this may seem like it does not relate to our major issue -
money in politics, if you think about it, it is at the heart of our issue
Understanding our inner Trayvons and Zimmermans
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/07/17/obama-s-former-spiritual-advisor-joshua-dubois-on-understanding-our-inner-trayvons-and-inner-zimmermans.html
Answering here 'G'.
There are too many 'removed' comments here and I can't follow the conversation very well. I saw that comment by Narley last night and it was perfectly fine. Shouldn't have been removed. He's got a shadow ban on his comment, because he can see it, but we can't. Shadow bans are icky. Trickery. I no like.
'jrhirsch' got banned a while back as well. I miss his input on the forum. His, was a voice of reason that I read regularly.
"I no like." heheheh.
Yep, shadow-bans are deception. It's no wonder some question the motivations of those in control.
Are you sure jr got banned? Or did he leave by choice? He was one of the good ones. Intelligent, critical thinker. The forum's imploding!
Sadly, I have to agree. The censorship is questionable.
Yes, 'jrhirsch' is definitely banned.
When I hadn't seen him on the forum for a few days, I PMed and asked him if everything's ok. He said that as soon as he posts anything, his comments disappear instantly.
I PMed again a few days ago, but no answer. But I added that it might not be an outright ban. It could be a computer glitch. Like what happened to me a little while back. But, I haven't heard back from him.
It almost sounds like what happened to you. We thought it was a ban, but turned out our suspicions were premature. Hopefully, you'll hear back from him and he can give it a try again. Narley's comment could have been a glitch as well, because all his other comments here can be seen. Why just shadow-ban one neutral comment especially considering the plethora of gun-related comments that have been posted over the last couple weeks. There was nothing in his that warranted a ban of any kind.
Nope, I take it back, it wasn't a computer glitch it seems. He copy-pasted it into a different response for me and now THAT comment is gone too. I don't know, Ren, I just don't know.
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you can kill it.
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The entire justice system is based off of money. Stand your ground doesnt have much to do with it.
Its not "Stand Your Ground" its "Show Me the Money"..
People with a lot of money get away with shit all the time.
The judges are all as bought out as the politicians.
stand your ground was created by the nra & alec to SELL guns
How long has Florida been a wholly owned subsidiary?
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/09/29/3025110/billionaire-koch-brothers-try.html
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My State is currently under HEAVY attack from these assholes.
I would have to add that bigotry CAN be legislated, just not in a positive direction.
http://www.eclectablog.com/2013/07/the-next-trayvon-martin-could-easily-live-in-michigan-thanks-to-our-stand-your-ground-law.html.
The entire country is a wholly owned subsidiary. To act as if there are states that are just so free and loving and everyone is getting along great is absurd.
We are all in this together. Your state is no different.
Easy to say, but you've proven absolutely nothing.
The article speaks for itself and nothing you've said has anything to do with it.
The proof is all around us. Hence the global occupy movement.
"sad but true - we cannot legislate bigotry and stupidity away" - very true.
but we can stop legalized violence
Stand your ground is a defense, people arent acting crazier because of it.
There's 14k murders a year in this country, and 200k+ sexual assaults.
Go ahead and repeal it, its not going to stop anything or anybody. The people who act like that could care less what any law says.
my God you are even more insane than I thought,
I really should read more
You ever known anyone who shot at someone?
Go ask em if specific laws were going through their mind as that altercation was happening, as they were losing their mind.
We have a SERIOUS violence problem here in America.
You dont know shit. Get back in your cozy home and stay there. Turn on CNN and FOX. They are there to help, right?
Have you ever known anyone who shot at someone without a gun?
ahh hello hc, OTP....
Ok, no gun?
You ever known someone who beat the hell out of anyone?
Go ask em if specific laws were going through their mind as that altercation was happening, as they were losing their mind.
I think the point is,
"If you keep the gun away you keep the Reaper away."
and often, not always, people are somewhat sane when they buy the gun....
statistics prove you wrong
I don't think so. Chicago had some of the toughest gun laws in the nation and it's the murder capital of the nation.
It has so many murders because thousands of guns are "imported"
Sigh, guns, aren't going away. Period. You can whine, protest, call your congressman or whatever. It doesn't matter. Guns are her to stay. I know you don't like guns. So the best thing for you to do is live in New York where gun restrictions are tougher. Because most of the US is armed to the teeth. That's just the way it is and there's nothing you can do about it.
And that's what they said about slavery, excluding women from voting, landing on the moon, freedom to marry and freedom to carry. Number 2 is obsolete, out of date, killing way too many innocent Americans, and stinks! The Wild West is Long Gone!
How many people died in the Civil War to end slavery? I've heard more men were killed in the Civil War than any other war. My point is that gun ownership is so deeply held in the US it could be as bad as a civil war. Trying to disarm 86 million gun owners who are willing to fight for their rights would be bloody.
I'm being a little dramatic, but not much. If you've visited any gun forums you'd know the attitude of gun owners is defiant. They will not give up there guns; and many will fight to the death to keep them. I think you grossly underestimate the resolve of gun owners to keep their guns.
No one is coming for their guns. "
They dont need their guns, they can just shut off the water"
If allowing 86 million the ability to own a gun is what it takes to make them feel free, thats what they will do. Take all their other rights, but "Hey we showed em we aint givin up our guns!!"
Thats the game. Its a lose lose.
If it ever gets to the point of turning off the water, I'd bet someone with a gun might turn it back on.
I'm not sure I consider it a "lose lose" situation. Just because people like guns doesn't mean it's the only thing they care about. People are passionate about a lot of things. Things like abortion, corruption, illegal government actions and the list goes on. Guns are just one of the many issues Americans seem not to be able to deal with.
"A little dramatic"? try whistling Dixie!
I'm sure once we have exhausted the lousy and deadly alternatives, American's will reach a reasonable compromise for good of the nation.
No one's archaic hobby is worth killing innocent Americans, not one!
Nope, once we've exhausted the lousy and deadly alternatives. Guns still won't be regulated and gun ownership will probably rise.
Think of it this way. A lot of people think American society will collapse. Some are even wanting it to happen. People know that and fully intend to be prepared when the collapse does occur. That reason alone probably drive the most passion of gun owners.
"Now I'm confused. I don't see your answer. maybe your response got removed."
Damn Narley, now I'm confused. Are you saying you still see your question with your comment about Field and Stream being the only gun magazine a while back? I don't see that question, only my response. You can't see my response on your screen? This is the first paragraph of my answer to you:
"That's a good question. And there were more magazines than just 'Field and Stream' long ago but I do get your point. It wasn't the mania it is now. And I'm sure tomorrow you'll get the typical posters chiming in about how it's all the NRA's fault but I think it's bigger than that. I think part of it is the militarization of society which really began in the '60's to make the citizens pro-war to defend the Viet Nam war. It's no coincidence GI Joe came out in 1964 if I remember correctly. So, it's a societal thing that goes back an easy fifty years. And it's only gotten worse and more institutionalized in the last ten or fifteen. Check my old post about the "Military Entertainment Complex" (shameless plug) to see how much it permeates western society."
WTF?
Well, I saw it last night when we started this discussion. But now it's gone. Makes me wonder if a mod is playing with me (us).
"Oh crap, It's back. I don't know what's going on."
That's strange. I still don't see your Field and Stream comment. On my screen, all I see is the "removed" box right under my comment that starts off with "Besides prohibitions cause black markets."
Strange, Narley. Very strange.
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You mean you saw your question to me, or my response to you? I went ahead and deleted my comment later last night. There wasn't a point in keeping it here without your question preceding it, and decided maybe I shouldn't be giving people crazy ideas like "home-made miniguns," heheh.
Yea, last night when you asked about it I could still see my "Field & Stream" post. There was one removed post under it. But tonight it's gone. I don't have a clue what's going on. Maybe the mods really are messing with me (us)?
Oh crap, It's back. I don't know what's going on.
"So what gives?. What caused all this gun mania?"
Yep, on my screen that's been removed. I think that might be some kind of shadow-ban, where you can see your comments but no one else can. But why only that comment of yours? All your other comments on this thread are still visible to me. And there was nothing in your comment that warranted being removed to begin with. Makes no sense, man. Must be personal, but again, why just one comment? I dunno, I'm tired of trying to figure why certain comments or posters get banned but others don't. There's absolutely no logic to it whatsoever.
From the onset of motion pictures there has been pro-war propaganda, probably reaching its pinnacle before and during WW-2. There were dozens of hunting-fishing-outdoors ("gun") magazines, are they gone? The NRA is one of the biggest and most powerful lobbyist organizations our governments, local to federal, are inflicted with. Too bad there isn't a lobby for People Against Getting Shot!
That sounds about right. Look at all the war movies put out during WWII, there must be a couple hundred at least. And they continued all thru the fifties into the sixties. My dad used to watch them all the time. Plus the TV shows back in the '60's, Combat, The Rat Patrol, etc. Entertainment, but also propaganda to an extent. Hell, look at Hogan's Heroes. A sitcom about prisoner of war camps, for god's sake.
"Too bad there isn't a lobby for People Against Getting Shot!"
Heheheh, that's funny, but definitely true.
voting out the nra & alec employees is the best place to start
You overlooked the matter that the people won't give up their guns and won't register their guns. No really, they won't do it no matter who the politicians are. I think you underestimate how deeply guns are ingrained in American society and how strongly people feel about their guns.
How many unlicensed drivers do you know who own & drive unregistered cars?
Apples and oranges. People don't think they need guns to protect themselves. Sorry, guns aren't going away; and few if any new guns restrictions will be instituted.
Nope, the people draw the line when you want to register or ban their guns.
Are the cars hidden in their closet or are they out in public for the NSA and cops to scan.
Should the NSA and cops to start home to home searches?
"Now I wonder what my post said?"
Basically you were wondering what was the reason for the increase in gun sales, gun clubs, etc. over the past 15 or 20 years. You mentioned it was a fairly recent occurrence, that people have always had guns around but it was never as bad or violent as it has been recently.
There wasn't anything in it that should have given anyone a reason to remove it. Yet another nonsensical moderation. Hell, my answer to you was worse than your question to me considering I could've given someone a bad idea about the home-made minigun.
Guess I might as well remove my answer then, since without your question, it's useless.
Now I'm confused. I don't see your answer. maybe your response got removed.
Hey, how come your question to me from last night got removed? Right under my comment below about prohibitions causing black markets. Did you do that or the mods?
OK, I looked at it. I don't think it was my post. My post, responding to you, is still there. Looks like the removed post is in response to my post.
Must have been the mods. I guess I missed it. Damn, now the mods or on to me. Now I wonder what my post said?
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Start with Harry Reid!
http://godfatherpolitics.com/8917/the-nra-got-harry-reid-re-elected/
I would vote out EVERYONE who voted against universal background checks
I would vote out EVERYONE who voted for a "stand your ground" law
Besides, prohibitions cause black markets. Then consider the fact that plans are online that show how to make your own firearms with no machine tools using off the shelf components. Try to ban guns and what you'll get is criminals using the modern-day equivalent of 'zip guns.' Not to mention the advances being made with printing 3-D gun parts. Some simple facts the 'anti-gun nutters' just don't get.
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Theres a hell of a lot more murders in cities without it than some with it.
Your stats are bullshit as usual. Go get out a bit. Your city had 414 murders, yes FOUR HUNDRED AND FOURTEEN, and because it was such a mess before, claims thats PROGRESS!!!
You are trying to ignore the overwhelming problem, a national problem, of violence and blame an entire cultural problem on a law that no one gives a damn about who is pulling the trigger.
here are the stats of stand your ground: The number of murders ajudged "justifiable homicide" since murderers have syg to hide their crimes
You forgot the link. What total of the 14,000 per year of just the last year (2012) are they?
You are focusing on the shallow end. Dive in.
Why are we so damn violent? Why are we not worried about the thousands bombed overseas? Why are there 200k+ sexual assaults per year?
Why is this one case so important to us, yet cases in our own backyards dont merit a single word?
request for link:
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/20/deaths-nearly-triple-since-stand-your-ground-enacted/
change of subject request:.
denied
I'm still on subject. Lets discuss.
12 "justified" deaths in 2005. 35 in 2012. In a nation that has 14,000 per year.
NYC has over 400 MURDERS. You may want to focus in your own backyard. SYG or no SYG doesnt stop someone from pulling the trigger, as cities without out prove.
Repeal it, go for it. It isnt going to change the violent nature of this country. The only thing that will is discussion, and apparently you are only interested in MSM talking points.
I'm sorry you think discussion is change of subject.
New York is one of the nation's safer cities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
This comment of yours reflects your commitment to lying in creative ways whenever possible.
"Safer" in regards to American cities is ignoring the harsh reality.
Have some perspective for once. Safer HERE means nothing. 400 murders is 400 murders, and an absolute disaster by most other nations standards.
But lets judge from the bottom instead of the top. Thats the new American way.
You are insane.
The other national problem is stupidity. Check this out. You'll love it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0he0cqHH20&feature=youtu.be
I guess we do get what we deserve, eh?
Cut the education, and centralize the programming into sickos in DC, and then use the extra money to bomb people.
That video is really sad. I dont go around with a petition but I always ask questions after different events and actions when out- Im still all pumped up- its not good out there.
Yep. That video is sad. I wonder how many people actually signed it. It was a bogus petition, of course, made up to prove a point. It's like all the people really heard was "help us support Obama . . . " and that was it. Even though he repeatedly said "abolish the Bill of Rights."
the bill of rights is a piece of paper
enough with blind obedience
I'm sure you have a lot of first hand experience, right? It's not like you live in a sheltered bubble of reality, right? You've been beaten, had a gun pulled on you, stood in the line of fire during a drive by, right? Cause it's in that atmosphere the law has the most meaning, right?
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It may appear that way, from where you live, but they ( GOP ) are actively dismantling my State as we speak.
BTW You still didn't prove a thing, nor did you comment on the article.
Not a good MO, to be sure, and that's even sadder.
"sad but true - we cannot legislate bigotry and stupidity away" - very true
You dont get a global uprising by accident.
The burden of proof should not be on me or any other individual. It should be clear after a quick walk around any major city.
Will you be running this post out as a way to avoid commenting of the link I posted.
The one you are avoiding commenting on ??
You've done that before.
It's disingenuous and in a way, a lie.
The grand questioner rears his head.
All the courts are bought out, in every state. Show me one where they aren't.
I'm not disagreeing with your post, I'm agreeing with it. Florida has been bought out about as long as the rest of the states....um prob longer than you have been alive.
This entire place was founded on killing natives and enslaving others.
I suggest you go travel a bit if you think there's some "special" place somewhere.
Oooooh, an attempt at insult.
As well as an attempt to ignore what I posted, as it has nothing to do with it.
As I recall, you insulted me in our first conversation together.
Let me take this opportunity to return the favor.
You're full of shit.
Michigan was a much nicer place before the GOP's teabaggers came to town.
It's too bad you love Florida the way it is.
If they are all bought?
Why are the Koch's still buying more of them.
It's YOU who should do a little traveling.
Perhaps in your own State....Wherever that is.
All the states are bought out. Michigan has been bought out for a while, its why they shipped all the jobs out. If you would like to blame it on some politicians instead of the entire system that is your choice.
Calling you the grand inquisitor... Thats not an insult. It was an observation of you going around demanding answers to questions you unilaterally throw at people.
If thats how you are going to behave, at least own it.
Anyone who loves any state the way they are right now needs their head examined.
Will you be occupying Gov. Scotts office?
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/17/headlines/florida_activists_occupy_governors_office_seek_repeal_of_stand_your_ground
somehow, I doubt it.
You're liar that knows NOTHING about Michigan, nor it's industries, so STFU about it.
the GOP and it's teabagge(R)s are fucking it "right" now.
Am I quitting my job and traveling to Tallahassee? No.
I guess that means I support the system. (facepalm)
The system sucks. All of your jobs were voted on by it to be off shored. The sooner you can realize that there are no good candidates in this system, the sooner we can start to be run by the people.
I know the people in Michigan are not happy. Yourself included, or you wouldnt be so passionate about things.
Such a huge amount of empathy. (not), filled with lies(yes).
Castle laws for all!!!!!
Is your battle cry.
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Don't forget that crap like this is STILL going on as well
http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDEyLzA0LzI5LzE1XzQwXzU0XzQxMl9maWxlCnAJdGh1bWIJODUweDU5MD4KZQlqcGc/f0ec202f.jpg
people with the money tell us what our jobs are
when to come in
when to leave
Would you expect to get a job from a poor person?
nope
So what you are saying is that the decisions made by a jury means nothing because they are "stupid" and don't know how to make up their own minds.
" they are "stupid" and don't know how to make up their own minds."
Are they americans?
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let me remind you that at the peak of the revolutionary war only 45% of the population supported and only 5% were involved. we just need to forget about the 99% thing it is always going to be a committed few that create real conditions for change. the rest are just sheep.
While that may be true I don't believe there was anyone who was not effected by it. And that's one of the primary differences here.
Just remember the other side is probably as committed to stop you. The masses aren't going to allow you to destroy their nation.
you can not stop an idea whose time has come.
Oh yes you can. It's done all the time. Also, Surely you don't think a few Starbucks malcontent hipsters talking trash is a revolution?
it only takes one harry tuttle.
harry tuttle is fiction, as is your bad ass revolution.
oh really? http://www.popularresistance.org/the-lion-sleeps-no-more-anonymous-calls-for-global-protest-nov5th/ guess we will see nov. 5th.
Jeez, You can't believe this marketing crap? November 5th will come and go, and no one will notice. In case you haven't been outside lately, the masses view Anonymous as the enemy of the people. Just a few arrogant jerks who think breaking into a couple of computers will change the world. Grow up, leave these fantasies in your childhood.
wow you are just as stupid, dumb, and ignorant as they get. when the revolution comes...and it is going to come people like you are going to try to preserve the status quo... just so you know that makes you just as guilty and you should know we don't forgive, and we don't forget.
Bring it, tough guy.
It's coming. Either join us, or don't.
It's not like your voice matters.
Nor yours. It's not coming. Just a few coffee shop hipsters talking trash. America isn't Egypt.
But for the sake of argument, let's assume it does happen. It would be nipped in the bud, The masses won't allow a few over privileged, over idealistic political science types to hurt this nation. And you can take that to the bank.
your iq must be like 100 or something.
I don't know what my IQ is. But I am a college grad and worked in mid-level management in the high tech industry for a lifetime. So, maybe I'm not that smart, but I am quite capable and clearly more rational than you. Also a combat veteran, gun owner and liberal.
Every generation has a few malcontents who want to change the world to match their warped personal image. Guess what, ut hasn't happened in the US since 1776.
Good grief man, don't you get it? The people aren't going to allow your so called revolution. You do not represent the people. They consider you the enemy.
stop calling yourself a liberal cause that is bullshit you are not a liberal you are a democrat there is a difference. a big difference.
Well I think you have to ask yourself how much all this self pity has aided polarization. What is polarization? Well its the recruitment of political allies, two forces of opposition; in essence it's civil war. We've now split the Bar Association, do you want to split Occupy, too? Because the white youth of America are not reacting to this in the Zimmerman-should-have-died form that you would prefer.
Injustice is not self pity, but prejudice is Vile and Un-American.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/07/17/obama-s-former-spiritual-advisor-joshua-dubois-on-understanding-our-inner-trayvons-and-inner-zimmermans.html
I can think of 2 issues that aren't going away anytime soon- the Zimmerman verdict and the NSA scandal. Some people can't mind their own business and if you can't see how they're related, you should.