Forum Post: Rich people don't pay taxes
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 7, 2011, 8:05 p.m. EST by ronimacarroni
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They just discount everything as a business related expense.
Ehh....yes and no. That's somewhat true, but most still pay a greater share of their earnings through graduated income tax rates. The real problem is with corporations that don't pay their fair share because they funnel money overseas to countries that have lower tax rates; with capital gains taxes-- including preferred stock dividends--which are presently around 15%; with historically low marginal tax rates; and with a multitude of other bullshit, regressive tax measures that the Republicans latch onto in the name of promoting growth. I say they're b.s. because everyone always forgets that supply well outstrips demand nowadays and the middle classes' disposable income is most directly correlated to increased demand.
But I digress. Point is, I don't know that we can ever reach a point of agreement as a country on tax percentages. I think we're better served for the moment trying to tighten up the loopholes, Including, as you note, those bs write-offs for business expenses that aren't. Sew shut the loopholes and keep corporations from finding overseas tax shelters--then we can all have a healthy national dialogue about whether it is or isn't fair to pay a little more when you earn a little more.
The top 1% pay 37% of income taxes in America. The top 10% pay 70%.
yes - why is it so difficult for these losers to accept?
Income tax is not the only tax.
Of course it isn't, but it is, by far, the largest source of government revenue here in the U.S. I don't know about Canada.
FALSE. 40% of all federal revenue is income tax, 40% is FICA - paid by every working person and capped at $106k, so someone making $500k pays 1/5 the percentage of someone making $106k or less.
Half of FICA comes from the employer, not the working person (unless he is self-employed), so the share of federal revenue coming from the FICA taxes paid by working people is much closer to 20%, not 40% as you allege.
You try to make it sound like it comes out of the employer's pocket, with the employer being the rich guy.
Employers deduct the FICA requirement from the worker's potential salary and charge it to customers. And not all "employers" are rich by any means. Also, self-employed people pay 100% of their FICA. Finally, the FICA cap makes the rich pay far less proportionally than the middle class.
Glad to see you acknowledge that taxes on businesses affect hiring. I assume you'll now agree with me that we should slash the corporate tax rate (along with eliminating loopholes and bailouts).
Either dodge and misdirect after I debunked your BS, or you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
You debunked nothing. Speaking of reading comprehension, I noted in my post that that employers don't pay half of the FICA for self-employed people (kind of an obvious point), yet you saw the need to "debunk" me anyway.
You say the FICA cap makes the rich pay proportionally far less, but this is only true of the FICA tax in particular. We have an extremely progressive tax system; the rich pay a far greater percentage of their income in total taxes than others do. According to CBO figures, the top 1% pay an average of 30% of their income in all federal taxes (including payroll taxes). The lowest quintile pays 4% and the second-lowest quintile pays 11%. The highest quintile pays 25%.
I think a progressive tax code is justified by the fact that higher-income people tend to have a greater ability to pay. But if you're clamoring for the rich to pay their "fair share," you'd better be careful what you wish for.
"the rich pay a far greater percentage of their income in total taxes than others do"
FALSE
The rich pay a larger percentage of income taxes overall because they control the vast majority of wealth.
The superrich pay taxes at lower effective rates than those on the lower rungs of the income ladder.
The 400 Richest Americans Pay An 18% Tax Rate
It is ridiculous to claim that your chart debunks the irrefutable fact that the rich pay a far greater percentage of their taxes than people in lower quintiles. Your chart refers only to the 400 richest Americans (not the much, much larger category of "the rich" which is the subject of this debate). I also don't know how the leftist group ThinkProgress cooked up these numbers for the "effective tax rates" of the 400 richest Americans. My numbers are from the nonpartisan CBO, and you have said nothing to refute them.
Why don't you just admit that the rich already pay much more than anybody else and that you just think that still isn't enough?
Another dodge.
First you said: "the rich pay a far greater percentage of their income in total taxes than others do". Proven false.
Now you say: "the rich pay a far greater percentage of their taxes than people in lower quintiles".
Duh. Of course they pay more collectively. They have ALL the money.
Dude, you find "dodges" the way Joe McCarthy found "communists." OK, if you need me to repeat my statement in the exact original words, I'll say it again. The rich pay a far greater percentage of their income in total taxes than others do, as confirmed by the CBO statistics that I provided. You badly, badly failed at proving my statement false, but don't be too upset with yourself--it can't be done. That's the thing about statements that are perfectly accurate.
Your attempt to prove my statement about rich people false by pasting a leftist group's chart that refers to only 400 people and uses unknown assumptions is just risible. Are you being dishonest about the tax rates paid by the rich or are you in denial?
You guys always resort to name calling when someone gets the better of you in an argument. Because I made an irrefutable statement and cited CBO numbers to back it up, I am a moron? Lame. Now that you've been reduced to sophomoric name calling, I consider this tedious argument over and won.
In a true progressive tax system how is it that the richest 400, who make more than half the population combined, pay 17% in income tax? These are not "cooked" numbers, they are tracked by the IRS.
"The Internal Revenue Service tracks the tax returns with the 400 highest adjusted gross incomes each year. The average income on those returns in 2007, the latest year for IRS data, was nearly $345 million. Their average federal income tax rate was 17 percent, down from 26 percent in 1992."
During seven of the eight George W. Bush years, the IRS report on the top 400 taxpayers was labeled a state secret, a policy that the Obama administration overturned almost instantly after his inauguration.
The income tax argument is inane and trite. Of course people with lower incomes will pay lower income tax... doesn't the name "income tax" kinda say it all?
The reason people with very low incomes do not pay income tax is this: taxpayers are most beneficial to the revenue of government when they are alive. Taxing people with incomes that are lower than the low limit for income tax charge would endanger their health, as they would not be able to procure such things as food, heat, shelter or other things very easily without having to forego one of these essentials. The idea is that if we can allow this low-income person to grow their wealth, they'll eventually fall into the income tax bracket and perhaps even into the high-income tax brackets, thus creating more tax revenue for government.
Imposing income tax on folks who cannot afford to spare that money currently would mean that many of the poorest would end up in jail, costing more to the state; many would end up in the hospital, also costing more to the state; and some would even end up dead, and thus unable to grant revenue to the state.
Oh, and it would also amount to genocide towards the poor, which is very problematic for the government and for the country as a whole.
I can't take seriously an argument that includes the phrase "genocide towards the poor." Do you have any earthly idea what genocide means?
Hmm, forcing people to choose between warmth, food and security (i.e. living outside of jail), resulting in probable decimation of that class of people, by surtaxing when they cannot afford it and jailing them when they cannot pay... Sounds at least like systematic societal and physical murder by proxy. It'd be a clever way of ridding the nation of those pesky non-income-tax-paying people, right?
I'm not saying that's what the nation intends to do. It's just that if it comes to that, even if we don't mean to make their existence so marginal that they'd be better off dead, the blood would still be on our hands. You're a smart fellow, I know you can make sense of my arguments before that line. I enjoy using charged, provocative language and I chose my words fully knowing their meaning.
I'm fully aware that genocide implies intent of extermination. Considering the sickeningly aloof or even outright hostile attitude many people have against those who cannot pay income tax, I would argue that if such a system were in place where the non-income-tax-payers were at higher risk for a slow social and physical death, the fat cats would secretly relish it. But you can't really blame the brainwashed, can you?
Also here's an article you guys might find interesting
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011/08/millionaire_taxes_irs_calif.php
You know it'd be nice if an accountant came forward with a proposal to sort this mess before they start chopping the federal government to pieces along with people's retirement and education. Never mind affordable healthcare. Most Americans have come to the conclusion that its an unobtainable dream.
We need serious tax reform. How do we get it? The American people demands that the legalized bribery end and we start getting real statesmen/women into office instead of those bent on creating tax shelters for themselves and their corporate donors. Here's my 2 cents:
There are a lot of improvements that need to be made. The list reforms people Americans want to see is long and varied depending on who you talk to. That said, I believe there is one reform that would provide the American people the best chances of seeing other meaningful reforms actually happen - that is REAL, loop-hope free CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM! I have seen others on this site calling this the "fulcrum" or pivotal issue. Right now the current legalized bribery, pay-to-play system of campaign donations and paid lobbyists has disenfranchised the American voter. Until this is fixed, any other reform the politicians may try to placate us with (be it a change to healthcare, clamping down predatory school loans, new financial regulations, etc.) will be about as effective as a farmer putting a new roof on his CHICKEN COOP, but still letting the FOX guard it.
We need to go back to the original political currency. Instead of the current system of who can collect the most money from corporations and special interests it should be who has the BEST IDEAS to EFFECTIVELY RUN THE COUNTRY (we don't need "Wealth Redistribution," what we need is "Political Influence Redistribution")!
For the sake our our children and future generations of Americans, we need to take back our democracy from the rich and powerful who are using their vast sums of money to "speak" as if they represent millions of Americans. This "Corporate Personhood" that has crept into our laws is allowing them to manipulating our policies in their favor at the expense of the average American (the recent "Citizens United" Supreme Court ruling is a miscarriage of justice and must be reversed. The $50 or $100 a normal American may give to a political campaign becomes meaningless when corporations or other special interests are handing our millions to buy political access to the decision making process.
For decades now the corporations and special interests have had our "representatives" bought and paid for (both on the right and the left). Concentrating our efforts on getting the money out of our politics is the best way we can create an environment in which further reforms can be realized. Until we end the current system of legalized bribery (campaign donations) and paid lobbying our politicians will continue to be the LAP DOGS of the corporations and special interests. What we need first and foremost is real, loop-hole free CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM!!!! If the corruption is not dealt with first, the chance of any other meaningful reforms becoming a reality is almost zero - the special interests will just use their money to buy votes and put forward bills that create loop-holes or otherwise twist the law in their favor. If we want our children to live in a country where there vote matters, we need to get the money out of our politics, otherwise they will increasingly become the 21st century version of the "landless peasant." Spread the word - End the LEGALIZED BRIBERY!!! CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM needs to be THE main goal of the protests!!!
Really? Take a look into Illinois, specifically, income tax up 66%, business tax up 43%, Cook County ( where I reside ) property tax up 10%.
They dont pay taxes? WOW, that seems like the kind of life style I would want to go toward. You make it sound bad when it actually sound like a great goal to go toward..
"DunkiDonut2" is a self-confessed T R O L L
He himself wrote on this forum a couple of days ago: "You want to take on the WORLD and you are babies afraid of some comments from "trolls" Grow up you big babies. The world is tough and your scared of little ole us."
Everyone can check that quote right here :
http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-to-defeat-trolls-and-the-establishment-in-this/
Really. I would have thought the same thing about the OP.
What? A troll? How can that be a correct mathematical statement? Explain, without a stupid reply, how, I'm not an OWS 99%'r and Im not a 1%'r and if 99 and 1 equals 100 and I, as well as millions of others that dont consider to be a 99 or 1% be in the math? I know you will come up with something stupid but try to explain how your math works.
YOU YOURSELF WROTE on this forum a couple of days ago:
"You want to take on the WORLD and you are babies afraid of some comments from "trolls" Grow up you big babies. The world is tough and your scared of little ole us."
Everyone can check that quote right here : http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-to-defeat-trolls-and-the-establishment-in-this/
WHO needs to grow up, I wonder? "DunkiDonut2" , the self-confessed T R O L L !!!!!!!
I didnt read your math? You will show how you use it in the math book? YOU say we are trolls, or 99% or 1%
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