Forum Post: Retail outlets should be replaced with a nonprofit government run organization.
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 15, 2011, 9:40 a.m. EST by FriendlyObserverA
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we need to start taking our lives back from the crooks that are bullying us out of our fair rights to live.
Have you looked at what most Americans think the problem is? They distrust big government much more then corporations.
That's right, JP. I keep asking on these forums why people want to give so much power to a government they already don't trust. Haven't had an answer yet.
Because for some reason power in corporations where there is liability and competition is more corrupting than in government that can imprison and fine its enemies and demand compliance, and break out the guns if they really want to.
That is because you fail to understand what a government is and that the people don't trust a government that is bought off by the financial elite. The government is a tool. It is not a monolith. The people want that tool back in their hands. 9/10 of Americans oppose the current Congress not because of the fact that they exist but because they are working against the interests of the overwhelming majority to appease a small minority that controls the wealth.
In a democracy, the people have the government they deserve. And we have the chance to change it every 2 years. If OWS wants to make changes, it's time to get off the streets and into the voting booths.
Our Representative Republic has turned into an Oligarchy. Plato said that even Republics, left unchecked, will become Oligarchies.
The voting both hardly matters, when the money in the political system drives legislation and policy.
What a short memory you have. Within two years of it's birth, the Tea Party didn't just change the headlines and "the national conversation.". They elected people who pushed their agenda in the halls of power, and began to change the system. You may hate the direction they've taken it, but you can't say that the approach doesn't work. It's just lazy to give up and assume you can't effect change through the ballot box - and recent history proves you wrong.
Not at all. I have all the admiration for the Tea Party putting people into office! I think OWS should do the same! Get some real leadership, an effective organizational structure, a focused agenda and do the same. In order to put an end to government corruption, reverse the affects of the Citizens United ruling and enact real campaign reform to get money out of the political system.
This is not a democracy. That is why people are in the streets.
People are in the streets because it's easier and more fun to complain than it is to organize into a movement that can really make a difference. It's easier and more fun to support all kinds of various causes than it is to focus on the most significant ones and work to change them. "If you are mad like we are, and think somebody should do something, come join us!" That makes for a good party, but not an effective change agent.
Yea I'm sure its tons of fun sitting outside in the cold rain when comfortable Americans are in their homes watching corporate media on television shit all over people who are willing to get beat with clubs and degraded by fascist dogs in order to protect the constitutional rights of all of us. It is no wonder why you are confused, old guy.
They're not fighting for my constitutional rights. They're fighting for the death of capitalism (quoting a street-wide banner at the Oakland march), the cause of unions, palestinian statehood, the canceling of student loan debt, capping of retail profits, and any one of a dozen other issues that have nothing to do with my constitutional rights. Mostly, they seem to be fighting for the right to trash public parks and make the rest of us pay for it. I chose the username confusedoldman because I had no idea what this movement stood for. After weeks of reading this site and the official proclamations on the home page, I still don't. OWS is a vast whiteboard that allows anyone to write anything they want on it. And that is why it will fail.
Whatever guy I think you are just seeing what you want to see. There are plenty of great ideas coming out of this movement and the national dialogue has changed greatly.
You don't really feel threatened by an anti-capitalist banner do you? The threat of the death of capitalism has done a lot of good for this country over the last 100 years. A lot of the rights or privileges people have achieved were granted to try and persuade the public away from these ideas. There was a time when a full socialist revolution was a possibility for this country and the way capitalism was reined in was very much a direct cause of this. Things like ending child labor laws and getting many of the labor rights that Americans enjoyed for decades and are now currently losing were granted to try to stop democratic socialist movements. A lot of people accused FDR of being some kind of socialist or anti-capitalist but in fact his policies are what saved capitalism from destroying itself.
If you choose not to see rights being oppressed then don't be surprised when you don't have them when you go to use them.
You totally ignored the gist of my post. OWS is all over the map on their causes and their demands. Their arguments about constitutional rights and politiclal corruption resonated with the public, which is why they had initial popularity. That popularity is long gone and declining even further, I think because they failed to have a cohesive message. "Occupy Everything" is understood to mean "Protest Everything," which is a distinctively ineffective way to protest.
I can agree with you that all of the protesting is not entirely effective but what do you expect? There are all kinds of people and most come from a generation that never protested anything. The spirit of protest is up in this country for the first time in a long long time and because of that there are all sorts of people with all sorts of issues colliding together. They are not working collectively at one goal. There are too many problems to tackle to focus all the energy on one thing.
I think Jay from Best of the Left put it best when he said that they are not headed towards a point they are headed towards a horizon.
That's a good image. The problem is, as the horizon gets closer, they're going to have to decide which point on it matters most, leading to inevitable splintering and decreasing effectiveness. Better to clarify the goals early on, so momentum can build rather than dissipate as the goal approaches. Like I said, I think it's too late for that, but it's interesting to think what might have been.
the usa is a constitutional republic. democracry is mob rule.
The minority of the opulent always knows what is best right? They need to be protected from the Great Beast. And while we're at it lets make black people .667% human beings again and limit voting to male property holders. God Save The Republic!
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if you believe all the rhetoric coming from the media, than of course you would have a bias against the government .. and in fact defending the very argument you oppose, that being corporate control over government .. media being corporate controlled .. and you backing the media .. such sheep
Surveys can certainly be misleading depending on how the questions are worded. As far as believing the media is concerned what can you do? Use multiple sources and take everything with a grain of salt. It isn't so much lying with them as it is giving out only a portion of the truth. I can't just throw out a report though because it doesn't say what I want it to.
you're right it's not so much a lie .. but misleading by omission of all the facts .. with the intent to persuade the listener.
Most Americans aren't aware of this:
The ugly truth. America's wealth is STILL being concentrated. When the rich get too rich, the poor get poorer. These latest figures prove it. AGAIN.
According to the Social Security Administration, 50 percent of U.S. workers made less than $26,364 in 2010. In addition, those making less than $200,000, or 99 percent of Americans (actually more like 98%), saw their earnings fall by $4.5 billion collectively.
The sobering numbers were a far cry from what was going on for the richest one percent of Americans.
The incomes of the top one percent of the wage scale in the U.S. rose in 2010; and their collective wage earnings jumped by $120 billion. In addition, those earning at least $1 million a year in wages, which is roughly 93,000 Americans, reported payroll income jumped 22 percent from 2009. Overall, the economy has shed 5.2 million jobs since the start of the Great Recession in 2007. It’s the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression in the 1930’s.
Is that a pasted generic comment? I'm not sure what that has to do with this particular post. Yes there is economic inequality, maybe not enough Americans know it, but that has nothing to do with the government taking over retail outlets.
FriendlyObserver and I disagree on this. I don't feel its necessary for the government to take over retail outlets. Instead, the people should consider the statistics that I just posted and spend their money in a fashion to reduce inequality. In other words, support the little guy more and the big guy less.
That is a complete waste of government resources.
not at all . this would benefit the economy greatly and in fact in crease government revenue .. sales would be up , manufacturers would be busy .. this would be a great place to apply government resource. Do you think governments can operate a store front?
I disagree. There is no reason for the government to run a retail store. But, I think I have you down. Let's see..........advocate something so preposterous that one must obviously choose the opposite. :/
I gave you three reasons.
It would be far better for the government to run the manufacturing plants.
Explain. Manufacturing requires a lot more skill and talent. Technology and training. Manufacturing and retail are two completely different breeds of people. One has class and the other doesn't.
Let's see..........advocate something so preposterous that one must obviously choose the opposite. :)
I got you down.
Let's see , why don't we create a system where 1% of the population has extreme wealth. With a middle class that works hard to support everyone and a lower class that dreams of being rich one day. Ah yes rich rich rich. And we will call this system " the American Dream. Dream baby dream
More government control/oversight/influence is not the answer. We need regulations like Glass stegall for banks, and a revamp of our laws and books. We need to hold unethical business practitioners accountable. The Federal Reserve needs to be exposed for what it is - a private banking cartel; it needs regulation. Regulating the energy and food markets would take the profit centers out driving out the corporate interest. This is why companies like Monsanto rose to the top.
Ya know there's a lot of places for socialism in a society, the fire department , the police , schools, prisons, roads, the military, and dare I say it healthcare. Retail goods are a place best left to capitalism, competition and the free market. That said I do think we should change our tax structure so that we stop giving subsidies for oil, corn and irresponsible trading in banks. We really should use that money for tax incentives to help those companies who would be willing to bring back American manufacturing.
don't be afraid to say health care . The more we remove private enterprise, the better off mankind will be.
I don't think we need or remove private enterprise but I do believe in a happy balance with the voters having some control over industries overreach. I think small business needs much more support than the large ones that buy the politicians.
yes , the manufacturing is private enterprise and they have contributed greatly to mankind with all their inventive ideas and products .. its when the so called "entrpreneur tries to strongarm the consumer .. that the trouble begins..
funny. i would have thought more than just one person would have recognized you're suggesting socialism. i'm interested to know if you're fishing or testing.
It's is obviously part of the anti-thesis propaganda plan. I'd smash it's keyboard if I could get to it.
How would you propose to do that? I imagine it would require a number of amendments to the Constitution. Personally, I would rather shop at Sears than at the DMV.
Pure Marxism.
when the govt controls everything it's fascism. Why start a business if the govt will take it over not allow you profit?
Will somebody please put some rate dape in this kids drugs and pile drive some sense into it?
operating a retail outlet is childsplay .. the government could do it with their eyes closed .. and both hands tied .
sorry, govt controlling everything is not an answer to anything.
Amazon has cut out the middleman as has EBay. Retail competition is vicious. Using the Post Office as an example, you really want that kind of lazy consumer service or do you want instant service like you get at Macy's or kohl's?
Yeah just like they had in the Soviet Union. (Aside - I don't know why people think Occupy protesters are communist.)