Forum Post: Remove the word "Revolution" from homepage please.
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 23, 2011, 12:04 p.m. EST by Hymnotic
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A Revolution implies violence. Take it off the home page. Neither Violence nor anarchy will lead to any good outcome.
This is about restoring the U.S. Constitution, the Rule of Law and the means is our right to "peaceably assemble". Nothing more or less.
Creating Anarchy, Inciting Violence and promoting Violent Revolution is the exact opposite of what the 99% want. We want Lawbreakers to be Arrested, Prosecuted, and ONLY when found guilty by a jury of their peers in a legitimate court of law according to the U.S Constitution, to be sentenced. http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=197953
Questions of violence aside, I think the revolution rhetoric is tired and old, it's a sure way to pigeonhole OWS into just a student radical movement. The people don't want an anarchist society and they don't want to rip up the constitution just yet. If OWS is to represent the 99% it should do so faithfully, not capitalize on people's discontent to advance a political agenda that only a tiny fraction of those people agree with. I don't mean to rain on the revolution parade but this is all quite fundamental to me.
The word revolution does most certainly conjure up the image of violence. The slogan WORLD REVOLUTION (check wikipedia) is straight out of Marxist literature and reflects badly this movement. I agree that it should not appear on the lead page..
Revolution
a: a sudden, radical, or complete change
b: a fundamental change in political organization; especially: the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed
c: activity or movement designed to effect fundamental changes in the socioeconomic situation
In my humble opinion "The Evolution Continues" sounds better
Evolution
a: a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : growth
b: a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance
revolution means 'a turn around'. Violence is a personal interpretation, surely? It is not implied by the word, it is implied by the level of violence the people have had to endure in previous revolutions... Make the Government be obedient to the Constitution, & all of American people's problems will have gone away. It is the people's police force, paid for by the sweat equity they used to pay the taxes demanded by government. It is THEIR Government unless they are not following the Constitution, but they are clearly not. That being the case, They cannot claim to be lawful Government, & should be arrested immediately, & every officer of their system, take an oath to protect the people, & be held ACCOUNTABLE to the people, or they step down too or get arrested for treason against the people.
The person who runs this website is named "Justine Alexandra Roberts Tunney", and they have published the source code for the website on github.com here:
http://github.com/jart/occupywallst/
The headline, or "motto" for the project there reads as follows:
"Stomping out capitalism, one line of code at a time"
You can verify this is true by scrolling down to the bottom of this page and looking to the right. You will see a link which reads 'github'. Click it. At the top of that page, underneath the smiley face, underneath the word 'Code' with an orange underline, you will see the project headline.
NOTE: I am fully aware that I am discussing the views of J.A. Robert Tunney, and NOT the OWS as a whole. -- However, it is time for the schizophrenia within the OWS movement to cease and for them to actually discuss, debate, and come to consensus on, what is their purpose and a sane solution to the majority's complaints.
The doubletalk about "we are not really socialist but yeah we are but not really but DOWN WITH CAPITALISM!" is being used as cover for the co-opting of a huge mass of genuinely concerned people.
Since the ideology which most vociferously speaks out against "Capitalism" is Socialism, it is quite likely that the maintainer of this website is a Socialist.
I would be quick to point out that Capitalism is not an "ism" at all, rather an unavoidable result of the consequence of possessing things.
Note also that "possessing" is not a legal construct which can be debated -- but a physical fact having to do with who's hands an object is within or controlled by.
Wether an individual capitalizes upon his own labor, the state capitalizes upon it, or a wealthy entrepreneur does, they are all forms of capitalism -- and have quite blurred lines.
Consider this:
If you have a broken car, and you employ my expertise in fixing cars, trading me two ears of corn for my labor... Then I have 'capitalized' on my labor.
If you then turn around, and trade that newly repaired car for two fat pigs... Then, lo and behold, you have capitalized on my labor, in much the same way that I did.
The difference being, you possessed the car itself, which repsresents a much greater amount of labor input than my repair, and were therefore able to obtain a higher price for it.
Question is this: Did you ''exploit" me?!
And, another question:
How could you, OWS, the Socialist Party, or ANYone, ever successfully prohibit this transaction, or everything like it? If you outlaw money then only outlaws will have money!
Isn't opposing and "stomping out" capitalism futile?
Socialism is not neccessary, nor even preferred. Simply return to sound money, and prosecute fraud.
End the Federal Reserve and the Fractional Banking System.
They have devalued our currency and widened the gap between the 1% and the 99%. They are the cause of the problems Occupy Wall Street is in protest of. They have empowered the political system which conspires with Wall Street to commit banking fraud and rob the people of their wealth.
The original American system, if enforced by its people, is capable of that. Enforcement may require revolution, but do not seek to bring down capitalism. That is futile and impossible.
Bring down corruption, conspiracy and political deception -- and your goals will have been met.
Do not chastize open debate and ridicule your strongest political support while pretending that you do not wish to alienate anyone and disingenously claiming that mockery is the same as moderation.
The Fed has lsome to do with exhisting problems. Leveraged buyouts on the other hand, destroyed one American company after another from the 1960's to the present.
Close. I prefer "anarchist communist feminist" or tranarchist for short.
You can have socialism with money and a market economy. See mutualism.
You're right that capitalism isn't really an ideology. It's just an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned. The term "capitalist" was also popularized by an anarchist who used it to describe people hoarding all the wealth.
Welcome to my little forum, Justine. ^_^
--So then! without further ado, fair question:
Isn't opposing and "stomping out" capitalism futile?
(Parenthetically, you should probably drop the "feminist" clause from your manifesto. I doubt you would respect me very much if I called myself a "Chauvanist"...)
I don't think stomping out capitalism is futile. Capitalism is going to crumble like a cookie sooner or later even if we do nothing. The first world is already starting to feel the burn of neoliberalism and it's only a matter of time before Greece defaults and we have food riots. I just want to help get people organized so when capitalism finally dies we won't be completely fucked.
To be honest, even if stomping out capitalism was futile, I'd still fight it because it's still an evil system of domination.
If you are a chauvinist, I hope you'll keep that to yourself when posting on this forum because we ban people for sexism :P
I entirely agree with you that things are about to crumble, but Capitalism isn't the evil responsible. Capitalism is merely a "thing that happens"; a physical process, like water flowing or snow falling.
Not to debate semantics, but what motivates domination and causes suffering, is twofold: Greed, and Apathy, which will exist long after Capitalism and Socialism end.
Perhaps the greatest accomplishment of OWS thus far, is to rout out rampant greed, and to scrape the crust of Apathy away from many people's eyes.
While numerous people here have made all sorts of assumptions as to my 'political' leanings, ranging from 'Pualite' to 'Trollosopher' to 'Piece of Shit' -- In truth, I can think of no better way to describe myself than as a staunch anarchist communist chauvanist, 'till I die. ;)
One other point of contention, while I have you right where I want you...
Will you please remove the code which mangles references to Ron 'Paul, and let the community discuss what it will; in a mature way, free of mockery masquerading as moderation?
If you want to talk about capitalism as a symptom rather than a cause (like when you said greed is at its root) I would actually argue that capitalism is born out of patriarchy.
Also I really love the Ron Lawl hack :)
mmhmm I'm sure you would, and I'm sure you do.
Patriarchy is another illusion. Women have control over reproduction, and therefore tyrannical dictatorial powers over the destiny of the species.
The means of reproduction :D
rotfl
While I don't have any problem with the word "revolution," I do sympathize strongly with the rest of the argument. I hope the anarchist involvement in the movement is miniscule and that everyone else in the movement keeps it solidly sidelined. I certainly see some of that here and a few who clearly want to bring down capitalism.
The problem I see is that capitalism WAS done away with by none other than George Bush, who said he had to throw in the towel on his capitalist beliefs and nationalize all the bad debt. The problem with the bailouts is that capitalism was only followed so long as it brought benefits to the rich; the moment it turned to punish the wrongdoers with failure for their greed (bankruptcy), all the capitalists ran for cover under socialism and sought to rapidly socialize the entire cost of their failures. They completely succeeded with both Bush's help and Obama's continuous help.
My concern is not that people want to redistribute wealth away from billionaires but that the bailouts have already redistributed TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS of wealth away from the Middle class and TO the billionaires to bail out their grievous errors.
(See the following article, "Bushwhacked," if you want to see that argument laid out more thoroughly: http://thegreatrecession.info/blog/2011/11/bushwhacked-by-the-bush-tax-cuts-for-the-rich/ )
An even graver concern, as Hymnotic says, is anarchy. There is no more terrifying form of government than anarchy where each person rules themselves. Such a vacuum of civil government ALWAYS leads to people being ruled oppressively by the strongest bullies who form gangs around themselves to rule their little fifedoms.
You'll never see another day of peace if anarchy is ever allowed to have its way. It would be better to vote to be ruled by the worst despot, for you surely shall be if the U.S. falls into anarchy. At least, with a single despot, you know exactly where your problems will come from. With anarchy, every person on the street is a potential despot, ready and able to bring you harm. With a single oppressive tyrant, you know which way to run away. With anarchy, every direction is peril.
That is why the rule of law must persist, even in governing rebellions and protests.
--Knave Dave http://TheGreatRecession.info/blog
The word "revolution" does not imply or mean violence at all;
"A revolution (from the Latin revolutio, "a turn around") is a fundamental change in power or organizational structures that takes place in a relatively short period of time." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution
Nor does Anarchy for that matter, this word is about social organisational forms that are equal as opposed to top down hierarchical.
Try using a dictionary, and understand the meanings of words. The corporate media has deluded many words. This attempt to destroy words is not a reason to abandon the words.
OccypyWallStreet Stop the Looting and Start Prosecuting
This implies the Rule of Law. It implies a love of the Constitution. It implies a desire for capitalism within the limits of the Rule of Law. It demands that the scams end which is the true desire of the 99%; not global revolution, anarchy or "stateless communism".
Get that commie crap off this page. NOW!
World revolution From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
World revolution is the Marxist concept of overthrowing capitalism in all countries through the conscious revolutionary action of the organized working class. These revolutions would not necessarily occur simultaneously, but where local conditions allowed a revolutionary party to successfully replace bourgeois ownership and rule, and install a workers' state based on social ownership of the means of production. In many Marxist schools, such as Trotskyism, the essentially international character of the class struggle and the necessity of global scope are critical elements and a chief explanation of the failure of socialism in one country.
The end goal is to achieve world socialism, and later, stateless communism.
Dude, It's been tried in many places ibn the 20th and now in this century:Cuba,Nicruagaetc... It always seems to end up in some kind of Fascistic dictatorship.
Peaceful Revolution
But what we are doing is indeed revolutionary.
I do not believe violence is necessary, or inevitable on a mass scale. Yet it remains a possibility.
I have no objection at this time if it stays - or goes.
The word "revolution" will remain on the website.
It isn't about that to a lot of people particularly the founders like Lans and Graeber. In fact they have a new website called Occupyrevolution.com or Occupyr.com.
This is about bringing down capitalism.
Bring down capitalism? How would that affect our local businesses in our communities? How would that impact the growth of the organic farming industry and their ability to compete with the commercial food industry? We need capitalism so that we, as consumers, can choose products that support what we believe in. If this Movement is to bring down capitalism, I am out. Forget it. I support my local farmer too much for that.
Why i am here is to get the people who dont support such radical ideas, to only focus on government and election reform which is the root of all the corruption. Don't go away just work to fix the movement away from the radicals into something all Americans want.
Well I agree with you there Jimboiam. I agree with your approach, too. I am interested in ideas such as the99PercentDeclaration, http://www.scribd.com/doc/71154073/A-Constitutional-Amendment-to-Reform-Campaign-Finance and more. That is how change works. Bringing down capitalism, trying to get rid of money, or using violent tactics to promote a message = failure.
The problem with that amendment is that it is being left up to the corrupt politicians to pass. That isn't going to happen. People need to collect the signatures to get these on the ballots in all 50 states for the next election. once passed give it to Congress and our state legislatures for ratification. they would be very hard pressed to deny a popularly passed amendment.
I understand the power of legislation at the local level. I recently helped out with an effort by a non-profit that was successful in so many states, that the industry said "Okay, we will just adopt National standards.' They knew more states would push for increasingly stringent standards - it was in their best interest just to do a blanket National standard.
As user "tr289" pointed out, the word "revolution" has several meanings : " revolution [rev-uh-loo-shuhn] Origin rev·o·lu·tion [rev-uh-loo-shuhn] Show IPA noun 1. an overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed. 2. Sociology . a radical and pervasive change in society and the social structure, especially one made suddenly and often accompanied by violence. Compare social evolution. 3. a sudden, complete or marked change in something: the present revolution in church architecture. 4. a procedure or course, as if in a circuit, back to a starting point. 5. a single turn of this kind. "
The word Revolution is defined in the context it's used in. Contrary to what "Hymnotic" claims in this post, IT DOESN'T SPECIFICALLY IMPLY VIOLENCE. I always thought they should call it an Evolution instead but either way, it's no big deal. People will twist and turn the Occupy protests into what ever benefits them then most.
Name any successful revolution that has not devolved into violence.
There are so many I don't even know where to start... Take the "Carnation Revolution" of 1974 in Portugal. Maria de Medeiros did a great movie on it in 2000, "Capitães de Abril".
That was a military coup.
There is NO contradiction there, my friend. The military coup was "coupled with an unanticipated and extensive campaign of civil resistance." To quote the whole 1st paragraph of the "Carnation Revolution" article on Wikipedia:
""The Carnation Revolution (Portuguese: Revolução dos Cravos), also referred to as the 25 de Abril (the 25th of April), was a military coup[1] started on 25 April 1974, in Lisbon, Portugal, coupled with an unanticipated and extensive campaign of civil resistance. The name "Carnation Revolution" comes from the fact NO SHOTS WERE FIRED and when the population started descending the streets to celebrate the end of the war in the colonies carnation flowers were put on the guns' ends and on the uniforms. These events effectively changed the Portuguese regime from an authoritarian dictatorship (the Estado Novo) into a democracy, and produced enormous social, economic, territorial, demographic, and political changes in the country, after two years of a transitional period known as PREC (Processo Revolucionário Em Curso, or On-Going Revolutionary Process), characterized by social turmoil and power disputes between left- and right-wing political forces.""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution
The same sort of thing would well unfold right here in the U.S : a COMBINATION of a military coup AND an "extensive campaign of civil resistance" as we are witnessing right now with OWS.
Who can predict how events will unfold? If the government were to order the military to crush a popular uprising, my best guess is that the military would SIDE WITH THE PEOPLE and depose the government - LAWFULLY because the government would have lost its legitimacy.
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What proof do you have that this website belongs to the same founders of occupywallst.org?
There is a thread around here about it. I dont know that Lans and graeber put it up, but it came out of the New York GA i believe which Graeber started and participates in.
Are you saying occupywallst.org came out of the GA? We've been around longer than the NYCGA.
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Why would you want to bring about capitalism?
I don't but many here do, including the founders of the movement.
O.K.
http://www.occupyr.com/
Looked at the site. A little radical to get anything accomplished.
Capitalism works. Government intervention doesn't. Look at the USPS, they can't even keep it together and they even get money for their shipping as well as government subsidy. Government run things just have too much red tape and bureaucracy.