Forum Post: "Religion, it's what keeps the Poor, from murdering the Rich"- Napoleon
Posted 12 years ago on June 4, 2012, 1:37 p.m. EST by gestopomillyy
(1695)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
so true! no wonder the state lets them get by with no taxes!
God is good
religion perverted His goodness
ultimately, it is much easier to teach your children to OBEY the masters because if they don't - a book says they will go to hell;
than it is to teach your children the ULTIMATE morality
of good and evil and the part of God in each of us that
can guide us to what is right or wrong, good or evil
think how much peace would be in the world without
the "religious right" of all denominations
the Catholics that are told to burn Jews
the Moslems that are told to blow up the infadels
the Protestants that are told to lynch the Africans
who is ultimately to blame -
the lemmings
or the lemmings' parents who taught them to be lemmings?
we need to learn from our hearts - that God gave us
not the books written by men
Yes, what you have said is an echo of what Thomas Jefferson said below:
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"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." ~~ Thomas Jefferson
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There is no proof God even exists, and that's the problem with religion - it's based on lies. There's no religion that would admit that it can't prove a thing.
There is no proof of existence or non-existence - that is the essence of belief
The key to "good" and "evil" - you must find it inside of yourself
It is so much easier to find it in a book
Thats why there are so many lemmings
I don't know, I'd think sitting around and searching for your inner whatever is much easier than reading a book, or learning complex subject matter. I mean, the whole "heart" thing is a metaphor anyway. Hearts do not think, only our brain can think (although our autonomic nervous system is involved in involuntary functions).
When did you first realize you were a lemming, bensdad?
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The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity. [Carl Sagan]
Thank Michelangelo for limiting our view of God in the West with his Sistine Chapel ceiling mural. It;s been said recently that it's the one most damaging piece of art falsely depicting Divinity. Sagan is right to complain about the absentee-landlord 'Clockmaker' God of the 'Enlightenment' – just not a compelling image. I recommend reading 'Parker's Back' by Flannery O'Connor for a look at the tragedy of our poor imaging of God in the West.
There's a phrase we live by in America: “In God We Trust”. It's right there where Jesus would want it: on our money ~Bill Maher
That phase has been changed to "trust no one". That's because of how todays society is.
You are lying & I don't trust you. Lol. :-)
Religion can also be a constructive economic force. For example, it was Christian monks who first provided advanced education to the poor, that is in Greek science and mathematics.
This laid the foundation for the Renaissance, and for modernity. All modern technology that we have today is derived from the education those Christian monks provided on a wide scale to the poor, when previously education was just for the few, the rich.
Public education is a continuation of that trend, of charity, but in a secular society in which church and state are separate. Its still based on the recognition that serving the poor provides a benefit to all of society and to future generations.
In this sense, religion not only prevents the poor from murdering the rich, but also can be what allows the poor to become rich themselves. Today's middle class, for example, has things not even imagined by the rich of the middle ages, such as air conditioning.
the rich didnt have air conditioning either.. it wasn't invented silly. and i think you are wrong.. all the way up til about 1800's only rich kids went to school .. poor kids worked. and it would have stayed that way without the non religious government making it law that all kids had to go to school. Public school has nothing what so ever to do with charity.
According to Paul Gallagher, in "The Irish Monastery Movement":
"The Irish monastery schools took children either at 6 or at 7, and taught them a regular curriculum until they were 17 (20, if they were to be ordained). The Irish Church had completely absorbed the clans, so that some children (but not all) of every family were thus educated. The Cain Patrick (Law Code of Patrick) said that "the eldest son shall render the service of a free monk to the Church, and the Church shall teach him learning." By 600 the same was usually true of the first daughter. These schools had no textbooks; they were provided with manuscripts of the Gospels, Psalms, classical Latin poets, Euclid and sometimes Homer, by the extraordinary production of the monastery scriptoria."
You say that air conditioning wasn't invented and then call me silly? Where did it come from, did it fall out of the sky? Of course the rich didn't have it either, someone had to create it first, and this required learning.
The Chinese government once did a study of western countries to try to determine how it was that the west had advanced so quickly beyond China, which had previously been the greatest country in the world for about one thousand years.
What they found was that it was our religion that had allowed us to advance so rapidly. This was made even more clear to them by examining the experience of having western missionaries come to China, setting up schools, hospitals, universities and publishing companies, all based on charity.
It's been found that under the Ming emperors after 1434, China turned inward, closing itself off to expansion in trade. This, more than anything, led to a social stagnation that allowed a transAtlantic western Europe to eventually prevail.
Perhaps, but the Chinese had never discovered scientific principles to the extent that the west had, nor had they taught or applied on as wide a level as was done when western missionaries introduced schools and hospitals there.
It certainly wasn't the the trade in opium brought by the British East India company that helped China to progress.
What scientific principles had the west discovered by 1434 that were unknown to China?
Western missionaries couldn't have taught on as wide a scale as that of the education required for Imperial examinations.
It certainly wasn't the missionaries' Christianity to have inspired the Taiping Rebellion that had helped China to progress or any colonial imposition. Today, free of colonial impositions, it is certainly trade that has been helping China to progress.
When the first Jesuit came to China, he was able to predict lunar eclipses with greater accuracy than Chinese astronomers.
It is true that missionaries could not have taught on such a wide scale. However, western teachers do teach on a much wider scale about many subjects in China today.
The Taiping Rebellion was helped mostly by British Empire spies who acted as missionaries or missionaries who acted as spies. They weren't applying the true principles of Christianity.
Today, free trade is still, to a great extent, a colonial imposition. To the extent at which workers for multinational corporations work excessive hours in factories for insufficient salaries, you could say it is still a colonial imposition.
Free trade gave China a lot of "sweat-shop" labor, but not very much high technology.
I think both China and the US would be better if the US would reduce its high tech trade ban, and allow more high tech US products to be exported to China.
The US could reduce its trade deficit with China in this way, and the Chinese could increase the use of high technology throughout their country, improving the productivity of Chinese workers. This way, they can work less hours and earn more money.
The first Jesuit had arrived over 100 years after 1434.
Western teachers in China today certainly aren't the previously mentioned western missionaries who set up schools.
Free trade is not a colonial imposition for any nation capable of closing itself off to it without concern for military invasion.
Overall, the wealth that comes by trade by which education is funded, not religion, enabled the West to prevail. The West had always had its religion but it wasn't until after 1492 that the West had gained enormous unchallenged access to the rest of the world enabling it to benefit from the wealth that served as the foundation of the scientific and industrial revolutions.
You all forget that China and most of Asia had already been fairly well evangelized by Nestorian Chirstian missionaries far prior to Jesuit contact, but that reactionary Emperors and Muslim Khans had by then removed Nestorian Christianity from the mainstream. The last Patriarch of the Nestorians to rule the Asian Church from Ctesiphon in Iran was ethnically Chinese. But the influence of early Nestorian mission persists, e.g., Syriac script is the origin of Mongolian script.
I can only speak for myself in saying that this is not something that I had forgotten. It simply isn't a factor in the current discussion.
The first Jesuit had arrived over 100 years after 1434.
Western teachers in China today certainly aren't the previously mentioned western missionaries who set up schools.
Free trade is not a colonial imposition for any nation capable of closing itself off to it without concern for military invasion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
Overall, the wealth that comes by trade by which education is funded, not religion, enabled the West to prevail.
The West had always had its religion but it wasn't until after 1492 that the West had gained enormous unchallenged access to the rest of the world enabling it to benefit from the wealth that served as the foundation of the scientific and industrial revolutions.
"The first Jesuit had arrived over 100 years after 1434. - Ok, what is your point?"
The question had been "What scientific principles had the west discovered by 1434 that were unknown to China?"
"Western teachers in China today certainly aren't the previously mentioned western missionaries who set up schools. - That's true, but when the first Jesuits came to China the emperor had recognized the compatibility of Confucianism with Christianity, and was going to allow the Jesuits to teach on a wider level, but the western pope became corrupted and would not allow it."
Your statement had been "Perhaps, but the Chinese had never discovered scientific principles to the extent that the west had, nor had they taught or applied on as wide a level as was done when western missionaries introduced schools and hospitals there."
"Neocolonialism is the practice of using capitalism, globalization, and cultural forces to control a country..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
China, a major nuclear power, permanent security council member, largest owner of US debt, and #1 US competitor for global dominance, is certainly not being controlled by any nation or multinational corp.
"What about the wealth of the west today? We've had free trade for decades, but now our wealth is disappearing."
Today, the West is no longer unchallenged in its dominance. A finite world has to be shared with other independent and growing economies such as China, Japan, India, Indonesia, etc. Nevertheless, the wealth of the West is not disappearing, it's simply becoming more concentrated in far fewer hands.
"The US has access to the rest of the world for trade today, but our education is getting worse and our scientific progress is slowing down."
Unlike the West as a whole after 1492, the US doesn't have unchallenged access to the world and never has due to the previous dominance of western colonial empires and rivalry with the former Soviet Union. It has long reached its territorial limits and has now reached its economic limits. Education and as a consequence, scientific progress, is no longer supported by politicians who pay much lip service to these needs but serve corporate interests for whom there is plenty of money for war and bailouts.
Do you think that the Chinese had attained all the same mathematical and scientific knowledge as did all the Classical and Renaissance philosophers in the west by 1492?
China, a major nuclear power...
the wealth of the West is not disappearing...
"Do you think that the Chinese had attained all the same mathematical and scientific knowledge as did all the Classical and Renaissance philosophers in the west by 1492?"
The Chinese had long attained their own mathematical and scientific knowledge by this time. "All the same" does not apply since different cultures discover and develop different things. It's not until the 1500s that Europe begins to significantly excel beyond Classical perspectives and utilize the discoveries made in the Islamic world.
"But still many Chinese workers work for sub standard wages in sub standard working conditions today. I understand the Chinese government is trying to change this, but it is mostly through internal investment in infrastructure and in higher levels of technology."
The worker conditions in China don't affect the fact that China is a fully independent nation that is not a current victim of neo-colonialism.
"Wealth is not money, wealth is the economic development of the society, such as infrastructure, educational and health facilities. The financial "wealth" which is concentrated in the US is illusory. Our infrastructure is now rated by the army corp of engineers as class C and D."
Wealth is not the developement of society. Social developement is a choice for those who govern the society. The wealth is there. The desire to utilize it on behalf of society, isn't.
If you have a lot of money in the bank, but your transportation systems have broken down to the extent that food can not be delivered to market, you will die of starvation as a wealthy man.
Transportation and agricultural systems in the US are indeed breaking down, and if this isn't turned around, we will see an increasing rate of hunger and starvation.
"Over the last four decades, U.S. economic policy has shifted into financial "bubble economics" (speculative episodes of all kinds—Nasdaq, infotech, fiberoptic, derivatives, home mortgage securities, commodities, etc.), while the means of physical production have been downgraded to ever more cheap conditions—global sourcing for food, outsourcing of industry, and now outsourcing of services. At the same time, basic infrastructure—from bridges, to locks, dams, and water supplies—has not been repaired or replaced. This pattern prevails worldwide.
In the agriculture sector, look at manifestations of the takedown process: U.S. food import dependence, loss of family farms and farmland, reliance on ever-cheaper immigrant labor, and mass depopulation of our farm counties. North Dakota's population growth is negative. Agriculture Department statistics document the fact that farmers' receipts for their output, are way below their costs of production. At the same time, manufacturing has been drastically downsized.
Concentrations of industrial and farm output are being de-structured. Look at the entire nine-state region, from western New York and Pennsylvania, through to Missouri. Historically, this was the world's center of auto production and heavy industry. At the same time, its high-tech farming, and regional food processing were significant national assets. But over the last 40 years, all this activity has declined, to the point of mass population loss from Michigan, Ohio, western Pennsylvania, etc.
http://larouchepac.com/node/548 "
And parallel to all of this, big business has thrived. A conscious downsizing of the system by big business squeezing out farmers and outsourcing labor is not a breakdown of the system. The inherent corruption of the system that works to the detriment of the people is working just fine for the few who control and benefit from it.
North Dakota's population growth is not negative.
"North Dakota’s population grew only slightly over the past decade. Data from the 2000 Census indicate that the state grew by 0.5 percent between 1990 and 2000 reaching a population base of 642,200. This is the smallest relative growth of all 50 states. Beginning in 2000, Census Bureau estimates indicate that North Dakota’s population declined annually, reaching 633,051 in 2003. The July 1, 2004 population estimate of 636,308 reflected the first annual increase in North Dakota’s population since Census 2000. In 2005, the population grew to 636,677, an increase of 369 people from the year before."
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/sdc/data/populationtrends.htm
With far less than a million people, it only takes the movement of a relatively few people to affect the population size.
During the New Dark Ages, the few thought that they could get through the collapse unscathed, but with the breakdown in sanitation, the plague spread far and wide, decimating even the elites.
If you have a lot of money in the bank and are a wealthy man, you have communication systems (cell phone, internet, etc.) and can order whatever transportation services are needed until your own transportation systems are restored.
Transportation and agricultural systems in the US face the constant stresses of peak production but they are far from breaking down. For a breakdown to occur, either the oil utilized by the transportation industry has to be depleted, the aquifers utilized by agriculture have to be completely depleted, or the national electrical grid has to break down on a massive scale.
The breakdown of the infrastructure is not a problem that will be allowed to continue to the point of significantly interfering with the profits of big business.
Over the last four decades, U.S. economic policy has shifted into financial "bubble economics" (speculative episodes of all kinds—Nasdaq, infotech, fiberoptic, derivatives, home mortgage securities, commodities, etc.), while the means of physical production have been downgraded to ever more cheap conditions—global sourcing for food, outsourcing of industry, and now outsourcing of services. At the same time, basic infrastructure—from bridges, to locks, dams, and water supplies—has not been repaired or replaced. This pattern prevails worldwide.
In the agriculture sector, look at manifestations of the takedown process: U.S. food import dependence, loss of family farms and farmland, reliance on ever-cheaper immigrant labor, and mass depopulation of our farm counties. North Dakota's population growth is negative. Agriculture Department statistics document the fact that farmers' receipts for their output, are way below their costs of production. At the same time, manufacturing has been drastically downsized.
Concentrations of industrial and farm output are being de-structured. Look at the entire nine-state region, from western New York and Pennsylvania, through to Missouri. Historically, this was the world's center of auto production and heavy industry. At the same time, its high-tech farming, and regional food processing were significant national assets. But over the last 40 years, all this activity has declined, to the point of mass population loss from Michigan, Ohio, western Pennsylvania, etc.
http://larouchepac.com/node/548
I don't think an electrical grid breakdown would stop communications
When you criticize the Chinese government, you get arrested. You should read about Liu Xiaobo, the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize winner. You might learn something and raise yourself out of idiocy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xiaobo
Here's what this hero had to say about his country, the country that has him in jail at the moment because of a book he wrote:
Known for his pro-West stance, Liu once stated in an interview: "Modernization means whole-sale westernization, choosing a human life is choosing Western way of life. Difference between Western and Chinese governing system is humane vs in-humane, there's no middle ground... Westernization is not a choice of a nation, but a choice for the human race"
They're are and have been plenty critics of America in jail as well.
Solve your own problems first.
FACTBOX: U.S. human rights record in 2011 http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-05/25/c_131611722.htm
Discusses rampant homelessness, child poverty, women's rights, racism, incarceration, hunger, distribution of wealth, unemployment, etc.
Can I find dictator apologists like yourself there?
Your mind is the size of a chipmunk's mind. It's important to criticize dictators and any other government who treats people like crap. China's dictator has your tiny balls in a vice grip.
Why don't you try a forum for homosexuals, if that's the topic you are so incessantly fascinated with.
How about you fight for China to become a democracy with more than one party? How about you fight for the Tiananmen Mothers for who Tiananmen is still a problem today so they can put it in there past.
Why don't you help at all? You could stop by protecting the dictator who has your peanut balls in a vice gripe.
Still haven't seen a psychiatrist yet, eh? You've got to get these fantasies about dictators out of your perverse little mind.
I came to China to teach English to Chinese people, and to learn Chinese. This can help our two nations to collaborate on important projects of the future. If you just want to sit around and BS all day about your perverse fantasies, that's up to you.
Read this thread idiot boy. The one protecting the dictator is not the one helpingl
Say that to the Tiananmen Mothers who are still waiting for an explanation from the dictator. You have no soul if you can forget and dismiss such atrocities. You just have peanut balls stuck in the dictator's nutcracker.
I'd rather do something about world today, then sit around and mouth off about the past. You really should see a psychiatrist about your perversion.
Who wants to travel to either of those messed up countries? As a rule, I don't go to US nor China anymore.
Its obvious you really don't care about improving the situation in either one as well.
Yes! Every time a government infringes on human rights, he is hurting all of mankind. The world spoke up when Bush did horrible things in Guantanamo. The world spoke up at the illegal Iraq war. This is good!!!
We must talk of things such as the massacre of Tiananmen Square.
Who are we as a people of the world if we let people suffer under the hands of dictators and say nothing about it but accomplices to crime?
The US and China are two of the most messed up countries in the modern world.
Tiananmen Square was decades ago. There are ways for the US to help China, and help itself at the same time. One example is the bridge or tunnel that would connect Alaska to Siberia. This would connect North America to all of Asia, allowing trade and travel between nations to flourish.
That's the kind of limited thinking that hurts our world. We all live on the same planet, we have to help each other.
Ok, considering the abuses committed in America, then the Chinese should "stand up" to help you as well? That is, make demands about what you should do in your own country?
China's just a censorship machine!
like the browser re director I can't shake
You can change browsers and search engines. You are even free to program your own. In China though, they have the Golden Firewall, so forget that.
There's plenty of censorship in the US as well, its just less obvious, but perhaps more insidious. Life in China is getting better, in the west, its getting worse.
I'm done. You sir are an idiot. The Chinese dictator has you by the balls! Squeeze squeeze arturo's small peanut balls.
More fantasies, get control of yourself.
You didn't know China is a dictatorship? There's only one party my friend and people don't vote. Educated yourself boy. I lived 5 years in China, and not only in the big cities.
China and US are both two messed up countries.
The dictator really has you by the balls. You're a complete idiot.
If China is a dictatorship, than America must be as well, because life here is not too different than it is there.
You should really try to expand your vocabulary beyond the word "idiot", it shows your own lack of intelligence.
Lol! You're just a dictatorship lover, and the fact that you defend the atrocities that happened at Tiananmen Square is telling. You also defend a country with abysmal human rights, and with near no freedom of press at all. Lol!
The Chinese dictator has you by the balls, and he's cracking those nuts open like there's no tomorrow! Lol!
My opinion is based on my experience of having lived here for over a year. Life is pretty much the same as it is in the US. Your perverse fantasies about the "Chinese dictator" are quite irrelevant.
You're delusional if you think censorship in US is comparable to censorship in China. More insidious... please. The Chinese dictatorship has you by the balls and it's squeezing hard. I bet you're the village idiot.
Dictatorships should never be supported. We live in this world together. When the Chinese government kills its people we must all stand up.
And when the US sends its people to be killed in senseless wars, should the Chinese stand up and demand that you put an end to it?
Why don't you invite the Tiananmen Mothers to speak to your school? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Mothers
Of course, the founder of Tiananmen Mothers, Ding Zilin, has been under house arrest since 2004 for "illegal activities against the government" which is basically protesting against the government's position on Tiananmen Square.
But, that would be an amazing project on your part! You could have a class on OWS and teach how the little guys need to fight against the government, then you could invite these mother's to talk about their fight against the Chinese government.
Lol! The Chinese government can! Remember Tiananmen Square when up to 500,000 people were protesting and the government sent the army to kill them? Lol!
Ask your students what they think of China's policy with Taiwan, Hong Kong, or Tibet. Go in small villages and see how hungry some Chinese people are, and some of the most dangerous health hazard environment some of these people work in. Lol!
You think it's great to be living under a dictatorship do you? Lol! Ask your students if they would like the chance to vote. Ask your school principle if it's OK to do a class project on protesting. You can teach your students about human rights, about OWS, about how people in democratic society's protest against their government, about how the people should own the government and not the other way around. Lol! Ask your students what they learned about Tiananmen Square. Then, ask your friends from US to send you documentation about Tiananmen Square so you can show it in class (you won't find much documentation about that in China, unless you count government propaganda).
Looks like the Chinese government has you by the balls and squeezing real hard. You're in a nutcracker boy! Lol!
500,000 is a small fraction of a billion.
Did you know that Tibet has 100% employment of college graduates these days?
Solve your own problems first, hypocrite.
If it's true that most Chinese would defend their government which they have not elected since it is essentially a dictatorship, then there is a big problem. When you can't or won't criticize your government, the end of freedom is near. It's the job of the people to criticize their government and keep it in check. There is always something to criticize, and god knows the Chinese government does a lot of stuff that could be ameliorated in terms of censorship and democracy.
I don't agree. We live in one world and we should all help each other. When the Chinese government kills protesters like it did in Tiananmen Square, then it's the responsibility for everyone to speak up. Same goes when any other government breaches human rights.
But, really, the Chinese tried to speak for themselves on several occasions. Many got killed when they criticized their government with the Tiananmen Square protests. That might be one of the reasons why you don't hear them criticizing nowadays.
You're comparing apples and oranges. I'm talking about Chinese protesters killed by their own government. You think it's OK for a government to kill its own people if that number is low? Please.
I'll be blunt and honest. You sound like a complete idiot who's been brainwashed by the Chinese government. Maybe you don't know too much because you can't find websites criticizing the Chinese government within China. Or, most probably, you're just an idiot.
China is getting better economically because it is using models from the west, capitalism, free trade, etc... It is not getting better in other areas like human rights and democracy.
I think you just don't know what you are talking about. Apparently, you're not even a civilized person, or are just low class if you have to make your point by calling someone an idiot.
As a teacher here, I've had a student get up in class and give a long speech about how he thought Mao was a devil. This was in a group of people including CCP members. So the lack of freedom of speech cannot be that bad.
I think most of the people here are quite happy that people like you can do what you call "speaking up", but are too impotent to even make changes in their own government. America has been going down hill for fifty, and you've done nothing to change it.
If people really were discontent here, I don't think the government could resist them, there is over a billion people here, what government could stand up against that?
doom
Lol! You live in a cage, even if it's golden! Lol!
The goal with that exercise would be to test your freedom of speech. Chinese students did that in1989 in Tiananmen Square for a very good reason; if a people cannot speak their mind and criticize those in power, what freedom to they have? The people in China are in chains even if those chains appear to be made of gold. There is one party, no elections.
Economic prosperity is not everything my dear arturo. The freedom of a people is much more important. Governments should serve the people, not the other way around.
US is not perfect by a long shot, but it does allow for freedom of speech and ideas. The Internet is not censored, and you can speak your mind in Washington. This very site would never be possible in China!
Lol! How funny is it that on an Occupy forum you put economy before human rights and freedom of speech. Lol!
Lol! You seem to believe that China is perfect. Don't forget that in many other asian countries people protested and turned their countries into democracies. Chinese were not able to since they were shot dead by those in power. Lol!
I didn't say China was perfect, I said it was getting better and that the US is getting worse. Most Chinese people like their government, and they would defend it against people who criticize it.
Its not for you to decide what people should do here, its up to the Chinese. Americans should solve the problems of their own system and worry less about what's happening in another country.
I think a lot more Americans were killed in foreign wars, such as in Iraq or Afghanistan, than were killed in Tiananmen Square.
Europe
http://www.thiscrazyweb.com/light-emitting-earth-from-space-07-pics/
Lol! Try holding a sign that says "Hu Jintao sucks and must resign" in China's capital and see how long you last. Lol! Tell them they should have more than one party and that they should hold elections. Lol!
What benefit would such a sign do for me or anybody? China has brought 100 million people out of the deepest poverty in the last thirty years. I think that's more significant.
Before I came to China, I was afraid of coming here. When I got here, I found there was nothing to be afraid of and that the life here is quite nice. Western propaganda had me thinking other wise.
The is just the old divide and conquer strategy that Wall Street and the City of London are playing against the US and China.
It's true that Western material progress has its roots in philosophy and inquiry invented by the Rabbis and peripatetics of Athens and honed by scholar monks, but it's simply utilitarian to say the purpose of the Western traditions (Judaism and Roman Catholicism and its angry daughters) is to create a richer, smarted society. The Christian East came up with different insights we Westerners would be wise to heed as our system runs down to exhaustion. Active love of God, Man and the rest of Creation is a good enough reason to become or remain Christian, even without the 'perks' of Western secularism. Christ said, "My Kingdom is not of this world."
It is rather complicated.
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe. [Dr. Arroway in Carl Sagan's Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985]
The US raised taxes to 90% marginal rates for the rich before, it can do it again if necessary. "Globalization" notwithstanding.
Finally, the Truth!!!
Then again, remember who start religions and their reasons for doing so. Not all are after the blood of others to maintain their own existence!! And that includes any and all religions. It's not the religion per se....it is what the oppressor does with the knowledge. The same can be said about science, biology, astronomy, race, genetics, medicine, education and any other aspect of human life geared to maintain a healthy, productive society! Keep the masses ignorant and poor while the rich manipulate and prosper.
No Brain-er!!
It is a powerful opiate, to borrow from Marx, which may help to explain why the poor cling so steadfastly to it. Without a belief in something better and hope of a better life, even after death, the lives of most people around the globe would be filled with despair.
As an atheist, I have to disagree. I feel no more or less despair compared to when I did believe in god (although I'm not really sure to what extent I ever truly believed in god, but I did give religion a try at one point, years ago). Honestly, from an evidentiary standpoint, religion is just absurd.
That is true, but I was making a generalization about the uneducated poor of the world and their beliefs, which probably help them cope with their miserable situations.
Or it makes them less able to effectively cope by supressing any felt need to seek improvement of their situation. Many suffer and perish in the ignorance of their beliefs but what if they didn't have them? How would they react to the daily misery if they knew there was no pie in the sky to make it all okay? Would they be just as content to let things be as they are or would they be more likely to seek an end to their misery knowing that this is the only life that they and their loved ones will ever live?
Despair doesn't appear to an effective motivator, which may explain why successful revolutions are rarely plotted and set into motion by hoi polloi; no usually, like Sam Adams, Castro, the Sandanistas, Hugo Chavez, Che, the leaders of revolutions mostly come from the better educated: the sons and daughters of the "middle class," or are self-educated and have risen to positions of power before turning the tables on their masters.
Personally, I don't believe theistic nihilism, in which most people believed in a purely physical existence, would generally help them, only because they would not accept it. Humans behave like most other physical objects and follow the path of least resistance. Religion is most likely the path of least resistance for many, who prefer to find security in their beliefs regardless of how illogical or fantastic those beliefs seem to others.
For me, it was more the fear aspect of religion growing up that kept me from rejecting a belief in God. I didn't want to piss him off and burn eternally in a lake of fire. Thankfully, I had a public education that gave me a different view and reason eventually won out over insanity.
Of course our skepticism may suffer a bit when reading Milton's Paradise Lost, if for nothing but the sheer imagery and beauty of the poet's language.
My skepticism runs pretty deep, but I do enjoy a good fantasy book from time to time.
Right, and I do understand the motivations behind the unwillingness on the part of many to rigorously scrutinize the claims made by religion(s). It's a coping mechanism, and something that at least brings people together (albeit in a limited way). I guess this shows that people like reasons to come together, even though (paradoxically) humans also gravitate towards things that drive us apart. Here's where I have to defer to my friends with training in the social sciences (because I have no idea how to explain these contradictions in human thinking) :)
Humans are a maze of contradictions. Their emotions almost always overcome their reasoning abilities.
Religion is an excellent analgesic for the masses. Just like annual raises and increases in many numbers or an exponentially rising curve can be such a joy to "hoi polloi," domestic and foreign. Napoleon was very perceptive - it is why contagions from "atheists" can scare the power elites to watch "blasphemy" so intently and react so irrationally with the "God" complex.
There is the love, light and expression of God (or Yahweh, Universal MInd, etc, etc.) that expresses itself in each soul right here and now indescribably beautiful and transcendent...and then from this glimpse of truth given our roles in the 3rd dimension worldy world to gravitate towards the usual state of thoughts, thoughts and more thoughts spinning in the mind that need organization and structure manifesting itself as Religion....the key is to stay in the Source and stretch the nanosecond out just a little each day......
The very rich also have a religion it is called the Occult.It allows them to kill us with out remorse.
I am an Orthodox clergyman who loves God, His holy Creation and Children (us) who were put here for Love, not domination. The holy prophet Isaiah announces the judgment of God against the unjust: "Woe to them who join house to house, and lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in th emidst of the earth! (Is. 5:8).
The prophet Joel wrote: "...I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams , your young men shall see visions (Joel 2:28). This movement, #OWS, speaks with the voice of prophecy and only a fool would gainsay the cry for justice we clearly enunciate. "O Lord, save thy people, and bless thine inheritance!"
It`s the oldest ponzi scheme known to man
This raises an interesting question about Occupy - should we call for an immediate overthrowing of government, or a gradual process where an alternative political and economic system will form. Carne Ross, former diplomat turned anarchist, comments on this very debate in this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeNeWrxRfn4.
Police State, it's what keeps the poor atheist's from murdering the rich.
Marx defines religion as "the opium of the masses." But, what kind of religion? I don't mean which religion.. I respect all Abrahamic faiths.. What I'm trying to say is the manipulation of religion by clerics to serve the wealthy one's own purposes may be thus described. I don't think, Moses, Jesus or Muhamad would be on the side of the % 1.. Analysing their lives, I found out that they all stood up against the tyrants.. That's why governors needed to change the social view of our faith. It became "Religion vs Religion" (Shariati) thing. And, unfortunately, their religion prevailed.. Not ours..
Jesus christ is not the originator of a religion. He's God in the flesh, come to reveal the Creator to us as one of us, suffering and mortal. As Irenaeus wrote, "what is not assumed is not healed" – our God becomes weak like us so that we may become strong like Him. That's what we mean by Love in the Christian sense. Religion, which Jesus 'finished' remains the problem, not the solution,and often serves as a handy tool by which abusers take advantage of vulnerable people – though that doesn't usually define religion's purpose or intent – usually. You can find examples of religion which are pernicious in concept, and which a soul with some self-consciousness needs to defy. Any religion that says someone is intrinsically worse than another needs to be rejected. Any teaching which gives free reign to low impulses to kill, rape, possess or denigrate is a carnal and not spiritual 'teaching'. As a priest of a suffering faith (Orthodox Christianity) I can say with a clean conscience that we have spiritually prevailed while being crucified in the flesh. Our victory is not of this world, it is the conquest of heaven.
GOD ... is a mathematical proof ... "where did it all come frome ?.... where did it all start ?.... it came from x ... where did x come from ? ... it came from another x.... and so on... the answer to the unanswerable .. is GOD...
GOD exists .... it's a reality .... it's religion that is only belief ....
----- an atheist believer in GOD .... ;)
God is an athiest....;)
What does that make the devil?
Prosecuting Attorney. That's Biblical: "The Adversary" His work is in the courthouse of God, actually, and his case against us is already lost because of Christ's advocacy of our humanity.
If he is God, why does he need a courthouse?
He doesn't need anything. That's just the traditional Judaic perspective. The question was about the role of satan, at this point in the dialogue.
If God does not need anything, why does his bible say to obey him? Does he need us to obey him?
WE need to Love, or if you like, really ought to consider it as a good option. We are free to obey or disobey, but the whole point is Love – which can only be freely given. There is no compulsion in that. The notion of obedience is overplayed and too easily mischaracterized. Sure there is Old Testament legalism, which Protestantism in this country harps on incessantly, and Neo-Judaism in Islam, but New Testament 'law' is simply Love above all else. I like that.
The alter ego of God.
Is only God restricted to having an alter ego? Do people have them too?
I know Bruce Banner does.
Originally his alter ego was grey, but Stan Lee changed the color to green because the grey did not print right. What can I say, I'm a comic book geek.
Plus the personality changed from the thuggish sounding Joe Fixit grey guy to the savage sounding green guy only to be resurrected years later and then done away again.
Joe Fixit arose from the success and popularity of the shadier heroes like wolverine and punisher. Fixit was a bandwagon product. I'm glad they got rid of him.
I kind've liked him. He was a refreshing change from the dichotomy of brainy and savage. However, he in no way approaches the personality of one of my favorite characters; Thanos of Titan.
Now you are talking. Thanos is a bad ass villain. Marvel 2in1 Ann #2 & Avengers Ann #7. In my top ten favorite reads all time -- hands down.
A friend of mine.
What's he like? Does he ever let u play around with his pitchfork?
Nah.... thats the Hollywood version of him. He is much cooler than that. Although he does like that pitchfork logo... thus he keeps a stable of Maserati's.
Hollywood is so fake. Who would you cast to play the devil seeing as how you got the inside track here?
Robert De Niro... hands down.
He sort of, almost, did in Angel Heart. He played Louis Cyphre, pseudonym for Lucifer.
Also in Cape Fear..... great pic.
Couldn't agree more.
board to thoughts of suicide
bored?
I think the science world is under the impression that X came from nothing. E=mc2 imply the need for the creator is irrelevant. We are all one, everything and anything. We came from nothing.
How does the equality of mass and energy imply the need for a creator?
Quantum mechanics recognizes that even in the supposedly empty vacuum of space, there are quantum fluctuations originating from a quantum foam. There's no such thing as nothing. The multiverse is infinite and eternal and therefore beyond any capacity for ever having been created.
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Religion, it's what doesn't keep the rich from murdering the poor, a millimeter at a time, while the church steals their hair and teeth.
As I watch, I hear God's voice in my ear. Sounds just like mine.
Good one.
Thanx
Jesus = Absolute non relative Truth... Know him Know Peace.. no him no peace.
Try to see this universe as a virtual reality that exists for entertainment.
There is evidence for this universe being a virtual reality at least:
http://www.naturalmoney.org/coincidents.html
Probably God deceives us and does not care about individuals.