Forum Post: Read this or Remain Weak - 8 very brief points, 1 Conclusion
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 12:07 p.m. EST by NoMatter
(45)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
We are in a class warfare.
Remember the Golden Rule? He who has the gold makes the rules.
So you think the 99% can vote and make the rules, do you? Obviously, you forgot about what you were just reminded of - the Golden Rule.
In a Representative democracy, politicians are assumed to represent the interests of the people who elect them. We know this to be false. We know politicians we elect pay actual homage to the ones who donate the most to their campaigns. Politicians want stability - i.e., to retain their office. Retention of office is the ONLY allegiance a politician has. This is why they might enter into politics with good intentions, but invariably sell out.
It is foolish innocence to believe that the people can separate money from politics or that they can mitigate the influence of money on politics. Money can buy anything. Everything is for sale. Ink on paper (e.g., laws of supposed reform) will never, EVER, stop the power of money.
There is one, and only one, way to restore democracy and opportunity for the 99%. This is to take and break up extraordinary wealth holdings. Money talks. If everyone has money, everyone talks!!!!
What about peaceful protest? Violence is detestable. From the perspective of a very wealthy person, if a mob of people gathered on your street and told you they would do you no harm, what about yourself would you change? If the threat to the rich is to "pass laws," they can only scoff and wish you "good luck."
The elite who control this nation and all of its people will NOT give up their power voluntarily. They will continue to buy the political process and control the people of the world until only one event happens..... they no longer have enough money to complete their purchase! This is not about communism vs. capitalism. Both are theories, and both are innately corruptible, and in practice, always corrupted. If wealth distribution is reasonably balanced, democracy will take care of itself, regardless of the form of government chosen.
Conclusion: The goal of this movement should be to restore democracy. The method should be a redistribution of wealth to a more balanced dispersion. The question is, "Is it possible to do this without force?"
Here is my proposal: create a new national capitol. Only that move will be seen as satisfying when we look back on these events in the decades to come.
But how can this small movement break free from the current oligarchy that controls us? We are doctors, lawyers, and farmers just the same as our founding fathers. Yet, the principles they created have been distorted to serve the oligarchy. These principles should be renewed.
WE DON'T HAVE TO REINVENT THE WHEEL. The founders created beautiful freedoms to counter tyranny. But, WE NEED TO GET THE MONEY OUT OF POLITICS.
In creating a new and better seat of government, we have the most powerful tool ever created - the internet.
I suggest Kansas City, Kansas as a location for this new seat of government. A new and faster internet is being created there. A cleaner and more benign canvas exists at this site.
It is possible! A Third Constructional Congress, see below:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
Who gets to distribute the wealth? What is the penalty for refusing to part with one's private property?
What do you mean by redistribution of wealth?
Let's put the money with the mouth. Get your friends and family to drop their bank of America accounts to get their attention. Pass it on!
Yes, it is possible to do this without force--through legislation and leadership. Leadership that adheres to commonly shared values of social, economic, and environmental justice will be necessary to effect any change in the system as it is.
The movement must come up with some concrete, material goals, and they must jettison the consensus-building model that they are using. There is nothing inherently wrong in having leaders and structure in the movement. We are a nation of laws, and it will be through legislation that things will change. Deregulatory laws are what got us into this mess (as well as international trade agreements and supranational bodies like the WTO and IMF).More than 100 years ago (please review your American history!), the progressive movements succeeded in effecting change through the legislation that they were able to provoke and inspire.
Here are some material goals that the movement must throw its support behind:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/to-the-weary-be-wary/
in regards to violent force. Read what this post says.
It's sad that is was so ignored.
Let me be clear. I do not advocate violence. I do only two things:
These are very valid points to raise and discuss. I hear all sorts of proposals that deal with voting. Voting is useless. We agree on that. If, as we agree, voting us useless, what remedies remain?
Thomas Jefferson:
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."
I agree, but the idea is a bit radical for the entire 99% to agree. One baby step that most folks can get behind is taking the money out of politics. Politicians should not be able to live beyond the means of their actual paychecks. Owning a private jet or a 10,000+ square foot home, for example, should be our heads up that they are receiving bribe money. They need to start working for us, rather than corporate interests.
You are so right, I am old enough to remember when I use to see my Congress person regularly. When he was out campaigning, you would see him at shopping centers and ball parks and other public gatherings. Not only that but you would see them shopping and getting their car repaired just like regular folk. I have never seen any of my present congressmen who reside in gated communities and only communicate through FOX news or if I am willing to shell out 200 dollars a plate for an audience with the fat cats.
So true. Our politicians really don't speak for us. They speak for corporate interests. They have no idea what it means to be an ordinary American, and they don't care to find out.
And your point about violence. Violence cannot be the answer.
Those who are afraid of this movement and want it to end are banking on us resorting to violence. If we get violent, the supporters of this cause and the cause (it's ideal and goals) will then be depicted as a bloody irrational call for the end of all that is good and wholesome for the American way of life.
When in fact, it is a cry from the people for a better American way of life.
Violence would ruin everything. Reason and peaceful negotiating has to be the way. Also digging up cold hard evidence would help to. =]
Raising money through donation and also just giving your talents and skills in order to aid the cause.
Thats how we do it. Not violently.
That's what King George said about the colonists. Was our founding despicable? Was the French Revolution despicable?
Agree. And comments from officials including Bloomberg's are exactly what this movement needs to build up steam.
It pushes the movement into a negative light.
And yes thats what was said about the colonist and other revolutionaries, but let consider honor and morals for once guys.
If we truly want to change for the BETTER (as in a change that leads us to what is GOOD) then change through violence will only lead us down the dark path we've been traversing for centuries. We're in danger of ruining our planet too guys,
THERE ARE BIGGER THINGS OUT THERE THAN HUMANS. We need to strive towards the good, live in harmony with each other and the world. That's how we can lead happy lives, not with violently overthrowing the status quo just to reinstate a new one that ends up being corrupted into the very thing it fought against.
Once a wise man told me if you were to spread the wealth evenly, a large percentage of the population would just waste it and the rest benefit from it. Would not an alternative proposal to change the way the people is represented (e.g. change the way campaigns and donations are orchestrated)?
Of course. Such has been the cycle of the rise and fall of every government everywhere throughout history. Ours is no exception. All nations collapse from wealth inequality, revolution ensues, and if done right, wealth is redistributed, and the game starts anew.
What about direct democracy like Switzerland has?
I respectfully disagree - I think progress would be made if we institute some real, iron-clan, loop-hole proof campaign finance reform. Right now the bribery is legal. We need to make it illegal and we need to be ever vigilant to make sure it does not creep back in.
No problem. Consider how you'd write those "iron-clad" laws. Who will pass them? You mus remember that in our corrupted state of the nation, voting is meaningless. You can't pass those laws without removing the corruption. You can't remove the corruption under our current laws. Our current laws PREVENT passage of laws that would end the corruption.
You hit in on the head - I'm not sure what the answer is. It would have to be a huge ground swell/grass roots movement. The current system has us over a barrel. It would almost take someone playing the corruption game all the way to the top and then lifting the curtain for the rest of the world to see. Problem is the political environment is so corrosive, by the time a politician gets there they are bought and paid for.
That is absolutely socialism.
Which may not be bad. My question is, "Are we ready for this?" Socialism requires the ability to share and have no desire for excess or power.
Can we do that at this stage in human evolution?
Not socialism. It is defined differently. The point is to simply call for a more fair distribution of wealth. Study wealth statistics. If all wealth was divided evenly, every man, woman and child would have a NET worth of $190,000 - that's "net." A family of 4 would have a net of $760,000 - net. We don't need to have equal distribution, but there's plenty of room for everyone to prosper. Capitalism would work just fine for a good, long time. This is not about capitalism, communism or socialism. It is about democracy.
By fair do you mean get rid of a system that allows people to make unfair amounts of money by manipulating the system? Or do you mean take money from the rich and give it to others? Penalizing the rich is not the way to go. I do support the need for a fair system.
Okay, sorry for that.
I understand what you're saying.
I still don't think that the government would go for that? Why would they? They get nothing, the Corporations have them by their balls so to speak. That would be wonderful, but we also need to keep money generating, isn't the value of the dollar decreasing?
Forgive me, I don't know much about economics, I just want American to be a good and just place like it should be.
"I still don't think that the government would go for that? Why would they? They get nothing, the Corporations have them by their balls so to speak."
Right. Read the concluding question in the main post.
Right and then you know my problem with that force being violent.
I completely understand. Violence is detestable. How much should a people allow themselves to be the victims of systemic injustice before they overthrow it? There is a time and place for everything. As long as we have remote control, reality TV and blogs galore, this might not be the proper time.
I think that we can do this if we just continue to help the Occupy movement grow as it is now.
By forming meet-ups nation wide until they see that we are truly the majority. Check out what BlackOps said in this thread:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/locations-for-assembly-south-east/
it should be the 5th comment down.
We just need to work together and we can do this without resorting to violence.
It would be a first in all of human history. But if you think voting works and your elected representatives will actually represent you, then, there is only 1 law that will work. A cap on wealth to be held by any individual and ay entity, and to the extent it is held in an entity, a cap on the amount of ownership interest any individual can have in it. The cap would have to be effective immediately, and redistribution would have to occur.
If a person can earn by fair means why should there be a cap on that? Who decides what the cap is? Who decides "you have enough and anymore money you make will go to the pool". That sort of thing will kill motivation. The need to excel is a strong driving force in humans. What we need is a fair system that lets anyone excel. Wealth redistribution by legislation is just stealing by the mob.
I do agree with redistribution as a good and necessary thing though. I'm sure I failed to mention that earlier. I just think that the word itself is associated with more Socialistic approaches and you know what the media does with that and how they spin it.
Public Image is an important fact that we need to keep in mind. Especially now with how quickly and easily information spreads.