Forum Post: Grow The Hell Up And Change The World.
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 15, 2011, 8:30 p.m. EST by puff6962
(4052)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
If you want to get your message across, stop hanging around a stupid park singing kumbaya and waiting for the world to change.
The most important thing to understand about modern America is it's short attention.....ah....ah....span. You need to "Occupy" or protest different sites, institutions, people, NEWS broadcasters for brief durations.
That means a little coordination and, perhaps, a little leadership. But, realistically, what have you accomplished? You allowed yourself to become an amorphous blob of humanity that was defined by anything the media said about you. You don't even know what you stand for.....My Lord. Grow the hell up and change the world.
If you regroup your movement around web contacts and choose key protest targets for 24 to 96 hour demonstrations (day and night), you will be able to draw much more attention to your cause. If your targets are chosen wisely, then your targets will define your message. I would suggest the front doors of the New York Stock Exchange be first and, a week later, FOX NEWS.
Visit The Heritage Foundation.
Drop by the Koch residence at 740 Park Avenue.
Revisit Fox News when they defame you.
Dress up and show up to Republican Rightwinger speeches and interrupt politely.....get drug off.....get roughed up.....But never stop.
Center your message upon getting money out of politics and correcting our system of increasing income inequality.
Choose some solid leaders who can go before a camera and defend you.
Most of all, realize that....if you want to effect change.....then you are going to have to act like grown ups and craft a message that will resonate with people so strongly that they turn off Fox News.
First off, while I may be liberal, I wouldn't subscribe that the movement exclusively target every liberal boogeyman out there like Heritage, Fox News, Koch brothers.
At least not exclusively..
Secondly, they did interrupt many speeches. Eric Cantor cancelled his speech in Philadelphia. There is the video of Scott Walker getting lambasted and Michele Bachmann also got a taste of the human microphone at one of her speeches.
Also, addressing your last paragraph, they did address Fox News watchers directly by buying an ad on Bill O'Reilly through Google Ads. While I question the notion of giving money to that bigot's mouthpiece, I do think that was a rather direct message to all the Fox News watchers
I don't disagree with everything you're saying, but this movement has done much of what you're suggesting and will likely continue to do so. It has hit the media, but not every facet of it is on the regular news cycle because that's given mostly to international events or scandals(like Penn State).
Yes. Yes. And, Yes. All of the instances you have mentioned are ones I would have cited as strategies that actually work.
In American media, there is a narrative. If you want to control that narrative, then you have to be constantly in front of it. Sitting in a park leads to redundant pictures of loitering campers with only the storyline of when will somebody kick you out. Or, worse, somebody gets raped, shot, or robbed.
The Occupation strategy is like the Maginot Line......very symbolic but very easy to maneuver around. The forces opposing OWS have had a very easy time defaming you and your narrative is being written for you.
So, now you got kicked out. Do you really believe that Bloomberg, or the mayor of any other city, is going to allow you to establish a foothold again.
My message is simple. Get smart and get tactical. Use a tactical and shifting strategy employing targets where the message of the movement will be amplified.
I do admit we need to come up with more ideas.
The ones you mentioned have already worked and will likely happen again.
I've only come up with 2 so far.
Consolidating the Occupations to the key areas by making sure transportation to other Occupations is available if one is cracked down on.
Primary blitz.. This is my favorite because most of the mayors of big cities are democrats and I can safely assume about half of the occupiers are registered democrats. If we all advertise that we'll all be voting at the next primary, they can't evict us. We can essentially co-opt the Democratic Party before they make lame attempts at co-opting OWS. Even in congressional primaries, nobody votes and thus they tend to win by just a few hundred votes.
Yes. The primaries are where a disciplined minority can have an exponential effect.
We just need to convince the other half of protesters to swallow their pride and actually register for a party other than 'Independent' or 'Green Party' and we'll be unstoppable.
Yes. It was the Green party that gave us George Bush.
(Quote: liberal boogeyman out there like Heritage, Fox News, Koch brothers?)
Dude... are sure the Koch Brothers and Fox News are liberal?
No. By "liberal boogeyman" I'm referring to frequent targets of liberals..
The same way George Soros would be a "conservative boogeyman".
I just don't think this movement should adopt (verbatim) the exact same narrative of liberal groups by constantly attacking these groups. I'd love to see Heritage and Fox News crumble to the ground. But I just don't think it's the right direction for the entire movement because we should be focusing more on positive change.
Kumbaya, my Lord......Kumbaya.
Battles are won by battling. If you think focusing upon "positive change" will change the world, then I have only one thing to say to you........Obama. Some fights make you weaker and some make you stronger, but you have to fight. That is the world we have always lived in and that is the world we currently live in.
In well disciplined movements, eg. the neocons, you have enough people spouting the same diatribe that it takes hold. In amorphous movement, the message gets lost in the noise.
You have only one option, define yourself by defining your opponent. This tactic has existed since the days of the Sumerians and it has already been used effectively against you.
The Protest of Fox News begins Monday. Get enough people there and you will be seen around the world.
puff6962 is basically right again. Pot's boiling over a little but the bottom line is he is right. Tactics supporting a strategy is what works.
The young lady that was on Dylan Ratigan today was a great example of someone who looks great, very articulate very smart and was on message AAAALLLL of the time. She was creative in her support of the higher ed issues, colleges wasting money, raising tuition and budgets to justify higher salaries for administrations etc.
I refer you to my latest thread, "Another look at the "demands" issue" It suggests a way to get the conversation sorted out, more organized, identify the relative importance of issues indirectly, give the media some news to report to stimulate the discussion outside etc.
Re the tactics of Occupation. The physical occupation is shall we say dicey for the long run. Legal thin ice, and leads to a lawbreaker vs law enforcer dynamic which takes the conversation away from the real issues, (yes I know they are overstepping their bounds but if the control of government is returned to the people they (we) will stop that sort of thing, besides cops are part of the 99%, have kids, are losing their union representation etc.
So, how do we keep the important issues in front of their faces while looking like good people (not thugs)?
I may not have the best answers but at least I am trying. Here is one. Let's use the new media to allow us to react like lightning. Targets, like puff6962 mentioned, are identified and a time is set. At the zero hour, a large mass of 99% humanity (which is cleverly disguised to look like everyone else, because they are everyone else,) suddenly does a mic check, or otherwise expresses their compliant about the target, wait for the press to show up, although they were told just before the happening, get some good photos, quick statement. and disappear in an orderly fashion, before the cops show up (they will be slow because they have to round up a big force have out the pepper spray etc.) It is a FLASH OCCUPATION. It is clean, legal, and an effective in demonstrating our efficacy and tenacity.
Scale this up to a coordinated flash occupation in 50 cities at exactly the same time. The next one, a rolling Occupation in 50 state capitols each starting 15 minutes apart. Have a high school band teacher lay out patterns in all sorts of creative way.
Small point. You need to have everyone checking in at a single URL or facebook page for coordination, if you want anonymity or a blast notification by email or twitter with coded football plays. Techies figure out security vs management of resources. Be creative. The Batman logo/99% projection on the NY building, was great.
One idea, which am I'm sure can be improved but let's get started.. No need for a few people to get frostbite out there. I honor their sacrifice but there are better ways. Change the world.
Flash Occupation!
That's a great tactical approach.
The whole truth: I had this idea a few days ago. Posted a version on a web site, got no comments and it slipped off of the list. Posed this and finally did my homework and found a handful of Occupy groups already doing versions of it around the country. So, I give 'em credit. Don't thiunk it matters who was first, it isn't patentable. What is important is that it is a tool for our use.
FLASH OCCUPATIONs Goooooo!
I wrote Flash Occupation the way I did because I thought the idea deserved to come back up the list, and it was more polite than some cruder version of "bump".
It is a very intriguing tool.
I think we need to be nimble and the Internet gives a way to react and in numbers unlike any time in history. The fact that Americans look "alike" now is a huge advantage over the civil rights movement. We can be anywhere or every where, without anyone knowing until we choose to reveal ourselves. It's almost as good as an invisibility cloak and it is free. My son says we look alike but he looks more alike than I do.
If you want to blend in at a Republican event, just do what the other drones are doing, cut your hair, and talk like you want to bring back Jim Crow. You'll be in like Flynn.
You've got the formula. I registered logged into NYCGA and mentioned the FLASH OCCUPATION idea. The response I got was we need big numbers staying a long time, not 3 guys at McDonald's.
I replied, "We should try it out with 3 jerks. Now, if he could just find two other ..... Does that say something about them?
The Flash Occupation strategies should be combined with the more dignified spearhead of having primary candidates sign The Pledge.
See:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/puff-onthe-butterfly-effect-and-a-clear-method-for/
It is time for OWS to deliver "A Message To Garcia."
I agree. It should be clear that the pledge is subordinate to the Constitution, unlike Norquist's pledge, except for the Citizen's United asterisk added by Soupreme Court which said * just kidding, all of the above is subject to decisions bought from the Supreme Court and/ or Congress by the "Better Government for Us Club," which may invalidate any and all of provisions above.
what about modern internet tricknology like bulk mail. i have phone and it's receiving spam all day. What if people of OWS give up one of the email account for Good - it's Not gonna be a big deal. i sure you, i can give up my account for good event. But not promise if i come. Surely reply back if i could
I'm sorry, "A Message To Garcia" refers to a famous short story:
http://www.birdsnest.com/garcia.htm
Brilliant. Has this happened yet?
Brilliant. I wish I could give this a thousand thumbs up.
Just don't give it 9-9-9. Seriously, push Flash Occupation if you agree with it.
Creativity is the key. As Voltaire would put it, be interesting more than exact.
These clever stunts, particularly if performed by very "NORMAL" appearing individuals, will reek havoc amongst the neoconservatives.
If you can bend something to effect FOX news.....and it's reporters on the field.....that would also be very clever and effective.
You should post the "Flash Occupation" strategy as a thread of it's own. It is a great idea and I commend your efforts.
I agree. What happened at the Michele Bachmann event down in SC was a good idea. The key is to be relentless and never let up. Everyday the news should mention some guerrilla style tactic that went down.
Yes. If you have seen the protest commandos, "The Yes Men," you get some idea how creative and effective that you can be.
I'm looking them up now. I also kind of like the idea of a 'parallel government'. Not sure of the legalities of that, but it's setting up an organization that operates as a new government, with its own leaders, etc.
It was mentioned in the video by Peter Joseph, the founder of the Zeitgeist Movement. I'm not a member of Zeitgeist Movement, but I like a lot of the ideas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQqjTxI3vc
Not sure I like the ring of that.
What do you think of this?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-them-lose-money-and-they-will-listen/
If I could give a thousand thumbs up to this post... I would!
1000+
Thank you.
Drop by Obama re-election headquarters while you're at it. Oh, and picket Moveon too.
No one dares protest the great Obama. Except for that one guy who sang him a "protest song"
What's there to protest? Is he trying to cut taxes for the rich? Is he trying to pay for those tax cuts by cutting programs for the poor?
You might as well move to Mexico if you want a society in the image of the Republican Right and Fox news.
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You dumb ass, he DID give the rich a tax break, and then he literally handed over a trillion. Budgets are getting slashed while the military conitnues to bomb.
What planet are you living on?!
Earth.
Would you prefer Obama to Rick Perry?
You have to choose your poisons.
Theres no difference between the two. Elect Perry and we get 7 more bombing campaigns, more debt, more wars, more gov and breaks for the corps. Just like the other guy.
Do you truly believe that?
No. I think theres no way someone could be as corrupted as the current guy. But then again, I wouldnt have guessed this disaster in 08, so who knows.
In what ways is Obama corrupted?
Do you think that Dodd Frank, or regulation of our banking system, is a bad idea?
Do you think we should have left Kadafi in power?
Do you think that poor people should not get health care?
Do you think that our entire credit system should have been allowed to collapse?
Do you believe that the rescue of GM and Chrysler were wrong?
What has this guy done that you think warrants such a statement?
Um....Here goes
Thoughts? Eh, i already know what they are going be :)
What happened to the rest of the comments?
Protesting Obama might get you into Gitmo, or droned.
I've always wanted to visit Cuba. Can you fly there on a drone?
Let us not be stupid. I had a friend who was sailing to the bahamas. His boat sank in a storm, but before he drowned, a russian tanker picked him out of the water. The Russians took him to Havana, where he was promptly put in jail because as a U.S. citizen with no visa there was nowhere else to put him. He was there for six months before he got out via the Swiss embassy. He said he had a good time though, and the Cubans were very nice.
Cubans love Americans.....but we still hate Fidel.
This is a good re-run of Archer. Got to love the DVR thingy.
Who is Moveon?
Isn't that an Elton John song?
Why are you on a page like this other than to be a brain dead little pissant with nothing better to do. Go masturbate or something.....and, by the way, your mother knows about that drawer full of tissues. Throw them down the toilet you idiot. Why leave evidence of your chronic obsession?
Care for some more kool-aid?
I don't drink, but I assume you swallow.
Boooooyyyaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!
The three dynamics of change 1) status quo 2) reform 3) transform
Step 1: <<<attack status quo, attack the bad guys, the defenders of the status quo
Step 2: <<<reform, get money out of politics.
Step 3: <<<transform, start correcting system with better policies
Puff is right.
The key is to choose targets that will define your message.
If you're against big money in politics, go protest David Koch at 740 Park Avenue.
If you're against propaganda guiding our politics, go protest Fox News headquarters.
If you're against foreclosures, go occupy homes on the day of the foreclosure auction. Intimidate bidders and allow ONLY the former owner of the home to bid. (This was done back in the 1930's and was very effective).
Make a pledge for Democratic primary candidates to sign....and when they do work you ass off to make sure they win.
First you get the power, then you get the change.
Seek real power if you want real change.
Quit fucking around with ports and church parking lots.
Pull up the tents and get tactical.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.~Leonardo da Vinci
My suggestion: Use the narrative that exists in the media to your advantage and make headlines.
-- Fox News covers something big, go make some noise and present the real version
-- Institutional Corruption in Penn State protecting big wigs from the law, go make some noise about it
-- Chickenshit Lowe's pandering to radicals, go make some noise about it.
-- anybody on Keith Olbermann's worst persons of the day, go make some noise about it.
-- Herman Cain, Sarah Palin, or Donald Trump demeaning presidential race, go make some noise about it.
-- Newt Gingrich attacks poor kids and child labor laws, go make some noise about it.
Rule #1 - Attack the corrupt 1%, the 1% defenders, and the corrupt only
Rule #2 - see rule no.1
I like it.
Laziness breed efficiency.
Most importantly - clear to see the final goal. And go to it. If there is no purpose - that can get lost. Fox News? Yes, spit on them.
Final goal :
How do you paste stuff on this page like this?
Thank you.
This video would encourage anyone to change the world!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G43zl4fzDQg
The rank of the people who support OWS can only grow because greed like a malignant cancer is threatening lives and liberty. We, united as one people of the USA, will be triumphant over greed and brutality.
OK.
But, you first have to outwit the bad guys.
Why do I have to wait a minute to post this?
Don't forget to protest on Capitol Hill and Washington in general as well. I am damn sick of you people thinking the Wall Street is the place to start and end your protest. NO, Occupy the House, Occupy Congressman's and Senators Districts. Tell these losers that if they don't produce results you will turn their whole district against them and no one will vote for them. You want to instill fear in them make their 90% re-election possibility disappear over night. And please please pay attention to what is going on in politics while you are out protesting thus far Congress and Senate are considering some pretty horrendous bills. Track these bills and don't forget to contact these people, these people: although they are corporate and special interest groups puppets they are still law maker and they are still pretty powerful. Pay attention to all aspects of the corporate machine not just one part. So far Congress, Fox News, Koch brothers, have done nothing but polarize and distract the population with division it is you job to get the public back to balance politics, you may have clean house to do this.
Yes. I completely agree with your words and sentiments.
I have concluded that the only issue that OWS should attempt to remedy right now is the problem of big money in politics. I posted a thread on this....let me find it and I'll link it to you......
or look at the Dylan Ratigan proposal. Google, "Get Money Out"
Puff 6962 you should lead OWS you seem to be more with it than the OWS people right now. At some point OWS is going to have to get a good organizer/leader/spokesman what ever you want to call it and there has to be a short list of demands that are more immediate common sense goals and less la la land liberal utopian rhetoric. Good! Money has to come out of politics that is believe it or not a strong acceptable goal for the 99%.
I will not run and if nominated would refuse to run......
I think that most people, and most movements, fail because they cannot focus their energies and they give up.
I do believe that OWS should move past the occupy stage.....very unproductive.....and there should emerge a few very core issues that unite a broad swathe of our populace.
I will be happy to enumerate these ideas, but I will rely on the ability and the initiative of those younger than myself to wage this fight. I'm too old and I've got too many little kids running around.
Please try to keep the "Regroup On The Only Issue" thread on the top of the radar. That will hopefully reach the core of OWS lexicon. Getting big money out of politics is the single most important issue facing our country now.
All of the abuses of the past 30 years can be traced to big money invading our political process. All of the solutions emerging over the next 30 years will depend upon expunging big money from our government.
$1000 ( monthly ) for everyone - Unconditional Basic income is a particular form of guaranteed minimum income, which gives all people access to some income irrespective of their current work performance or their past work performance. A guaranteed minimum monthly income in this sense is something which has existed in several European countries for a number of years, but basic income differs from the existing guaranteed minimum income along three dimensions: first, basic income is strictly individual, given to all people on an individual basis irrespective of their household situation; second, it is given to all irrespective of income from other sources (labor income or capital income); third, basic income is not subject to whether people are willing to work or not. It is not restricted to the involuntarily unemployed, but would be paid to everyone, including people who choose not to engage in paid work (for example, housewives, househusbands, volunteers, students, and tramps).
Funding solutions could involve a combination of the following:
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Why would anyone work?
How would you force those who don't want to work to work?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
You can start right here:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
Working on it.
Thank you. We at the KTC can use all the support we can get.
First Power, Then Change.
A PROMISE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
I, _, Promise To The Citizens Of The District Of The State Of _ And All
Of The People Of This State That I Will Support The 28th Amendment To Our Constitution That
Shall:
I. Ban All Corporate Donations To Political Campaigns And Election Activities,
II. Limit Personal Donations To One-Hundred Times The Amount Of The Federal Minimum Wage,
III. Require That All Lobbyist Interactions With Congress Be Recorded And Made Public Information, and
IV. Forever Ban Employees Of The Federal Government From Engaging In Lobbying Activities Or From Being Under The Employ Of Such Firms That Do.
Signed
Date
Witness
Witness
Please Sign And Return To: Occupy Forward P.O. Box Blank Blank, Blank 555555
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Thanks...(you left out, lay off the weed)
That is probably a good idea.
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Yeah I should quit my job and move to a different state!
Not gonna happen. I'll stay here and try and make a difference locally.
It's not as easy as you make it sound. I wish it were though and there are some great ideas in your post. Your title is a bit ridiculous though.
"Most of all, realize that....if you want to effect change.....then you are going to have to act like grown ups and craft a message that will resonate with people so strongly that they turn off Fox News." What's your suggestion? The Fox News crowd is near impossible to talk with before they start yelling and then spit comes out of their mouths.
Here's a quote I use frequently to describe how all these problems started happening. "Both parties are rotten - how could they not be, given the complete infestation of the political system by corporate money on a scale that now requires a presidential candidate to raise upwards of a billion dollars to be competitive in the general election?"
I've had a bunch of ideas I've gotten people at my work to agree with and they didn't give a shit about politics beforehand. You have to make them realize how it affects them personally.
As far as reasonable solutions go, I've seen bills actually drafted up that would over turn "citizens united" and I've seen others that involve massive campaign finance reform as well as another nationalizing the federal reserve. All real solutions to big problems. We have to govern our government like the constitution says. We need to restore the America our forefathers fought for. We need to uphold the constitution the way it was meant to be upheld. Get rid of corporate personhood and 100% of US citizens still have the right to free speech.
My absolute favorite actually comes from a politician in congress now.
It's called the National Emergency Employment defense act.
Do you not think that "Occupy Fox News" or "Occupy Congressman Jeb Hensarling" or "Occupy John Boaner" would not be more effective than remaining in a stupid park?
I never said they were bad ideas. I think Occupying Fox News would be hilarious. I just meant that Occupy is nationwide. So a lot of your suggestions are easier said than done on that aspect, like for people like me who live in the middle of the country. But as for those in New York, I don't know... I'm not in New York. You should be the first to start if you're in new york.
I wish I were.
You have to have a ridiculous title on this forum for anybody to read your words.
hahaha true. The only posts I've made that get a lot of comments involve the word Capitalism. People love that word. I even like capitalism. But capitalism has been hijacked and is being turned into monopoly-pyramid-schemism
Try Libertarian. Those people are fucking crazy about arguing.
I agree with a lot of the libertarian viewpoints. I strongly disagree with the wars. Specifically what has been done with Iraq and Libya. They lied repeatedly about Iraq... even Obama about ending the war there. From WMD's to claiming it's to help their people... why didn't we bomb and invade China for their massacres of the people in Tibet?
Also I would love to have more state power than big federal government. A lot of states are the size of some countries in the world. A lot of Ronny P's views get distorted. While he might not like a lot of things, his stance is always that states should be deciding on most issues and not the federal. Although I disagree with a lot of the cuts he wants to make... he's the only guy running for president that I don't think is corrupt. But yeah a lot of his cuts are too much. I would almost call them "austerity measures." But I will not be fooled into voting Obama again. Have you heard about who the rebels really are in Libya?
Yeah it's fucked up. In my opinion that should be considered treason by the Obama administration and NATO.
This was known before the support of the rebels. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/29/501364/main20099014.shtml
Kucinich is pissed - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQsy9oU7E9k
And so is this congressmen - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G0pUEU603Q
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
It's not the hippies in the park who are causing the trouble, it's the people who are making that seem like more fun than being criminals looking to screw you out of whatever you have.
If you allow your enemy to define you then you are allowing your enemy to conquer you.
If you want to change the world, cut your fucking hair, shave, dress well and protest the various people, institutions, or media organizations that stand in the way of the change.
Quit hanging around a stupid park looking like a bunch of college kids out camping for the first time. You have to be smart to win. You have to be coordinated. You have to have a code of conduct. You have to make your points in a way that gets noticed. You have to use your enemies strengths against him. So, get smart....and quickly.
Should we get together to coordinate and make these plans? Should it be a public gathering in a public place, so that we aren't accused of having a hidden agenda or being somehow exclusive? What should we do if, once we shower and shave, dress well, and work hard at our jobs, our protests about the institutions we don't approve of still get the same response?
Look. I live a long ways from New York and if you look like a bunch of "Survivor New York" rejects, then your message is not going to resonate with the average American.
You can call yourself "the 99" all you want, but to the average Joe....you look like someone with whom he would rather not associate.
It does no good to appeal only to those who already agree with you. You have to produce a narrative that will allow your movement to grow, mature, and broaden.
I hope that makes sense.
The 'average Joe' with the attitude you describe would love to be one of the bankers who were bailed out. Maybe our new and improved message should be, "stop complaining about the protesters, and stick to your job of sticking it to people financially." You aren't going to get to CEO of a conglomerate by caring what a bunch of spoiled people say about people who are even more spoiled. Shut up and get back to work yourselves, slackers.
Unfortunately, the 'average Joe' often took out a mortgage that he wasn't really able to repay and, because the banks were deluded as well, they lent him the money.
I have no love for banks....particularly investment banks....but if a banking system freezes and credit is removed from our economic system, the results would be something that I don't think you could imagine.
The banks are the symptom of our corrupt system, but they are not the root cause.
That root cause is, instead, the bastardization of our political system through big donations and lobbyists.
If you simply target that one issue....with growing wage inequality thrown it....then you are half way towards a movement that would enjoy broad support.
However, from your post it sounds as if you may not be among those who desire to see such a broad consensus, so fuck you.
I was with you until you said FU, interesting.
Anyhow, bankers, who only give a crap about how much $ they make, argue with politicians that if they CAN'T pay off the government with their rewards for working, then why would anyone bother working? "That's just the way it's always been done."
I'm thinking our 'average joe' should stop thinking that corporate leadership makes a strong country, and look for politicians who who side with everyone else, instead. Especially if he would rather be a banking executive than an average joe. Politicians supporting those who are already financially solid breaks the opportunities for those who aren't, and breaks the economy of the whole.
Though, I suppose, if the average American joe would rather be in your face to the rest of the world about that his country could beat up other average joe's countries, rather than try to do something noteworthy himself, then it's only natural that those presidents feel the need to see to it that the current military is well funded and ready to go right now. Threatened by impending war, caused by the arrogance of their own people, they just have to do what they can right now, rather than plan for a better future. "Hell no Americans ain't those guys who were reluctant to get into WW2, preferring to mind our businesses, before finally getting in there with our Henry Ford tanks, and lack of duplicitous know-how!!1!"
I suppose, as far as arguing that goes, 'you guys in the park' are doing a good job of making it seem to the president that not everyone whom his job is to please is that kind of average joe. At least, if it's a president for the people, rather than a corporate president. Which I don't think we've seen for a while.
Sorry, I thought that you were only trying to create mayhem on the forum. Thanks for your comments.
I don't think that you have that much to take.
No visible leaders, once we start implementing strategy our targets will take blows without even knowing where they came from. No leaders = no visible targets, as well. Thanks for the well-wishes. From your tone, I imagine you'd be better off coaching a high school football team.
No visible leaders means no visible message.
Show me one movement in all of history that has accomplished anything without leadership and a chain of command.
Show me one.
The only thing new in the world is the history that we don't know. Harry Truman said that one. I would suggest that you study history.
And it sounds as if you would be better off as a arm waving martyr instead of someone who productively works towards an objective.
Actually, anyone who "productively works towards an objective" should not expect fame or glory. I'm wary of anyone in this Movement who appears to be seeking fame or glory. No, no martyrs -- we all rise and fall together.
Horseshit. You don't even know what a misguided idealist really is.....and you're one of them.
puff go poof...
Sorry. I've watched various movements for 40 years and you are not harnessing the right energies to effect the changes you desire.
Occupations always end.
Boycotts never work.
Protests turn violent.
But, small efforts that have large visibility and a clear message can magnify a cause.
Get tactical, get normal looking, and stay on the television. Right now, the only news you're getting is when your camps get expelled or when somebody gets shot.
If you care for which you fight, then you must change tactics now.
You should have stated that earlier. Are you pulling for a Movement? Or, is your interest wrapped up in the status quo? Why are you taking your time to contribute to this board? Now I am getting the sense that you are not a saboteur, that you wish to offer something. I studied attempted American movements of the early-twentieth century and I can tell you that this one is making the same mistakes. Doing my best to share my understanding.
I've warned for weeks that the mayor would never allow for an occupation to last into the winter.
The thing about occupations is that the news eventually focuses on whether or not the police will remove the protesters. What then gets lost is the actual message of the occupiers. The drama of removal removes the drama of the message.
Agreed, I've been saying the same thing. I'm tired of visiting my local Occupy and hearing camp talk. Where are the issues, and how is this going to transform into something with teeth? I don't think it is in our best interest to perform victimization.
Now is the time for a group of Occupy people to pick some sort of intellectual guides for the movement. Paul Krugman would lead the economic aspects. Dylan Ratigan would lead the "GetMoneyOut" initiative, and you guys need to find some normal looking articulate individuals to start appearing on local and national television.
A professor of mine who has been active in the movement and recently published a book about the 60s recently spoke to local media. I especially appreciated the Cornel West/Chris Hedges mock trial -- great educators. I think these people are beginning to surface. I am looking forward to a productive winter of planning and coordination and to really get the word out this coming spring.
Agree.
Warning. Puffy is a rabid left winger who likes to pretend that all the bad guys are on the right. Don't you DARE tell him you're against the left wing hate filled stupidity groups or he'll get raging PMS and start calling you names and using all kinds of logical fallacies to intimidate and silence you.
he has a weird obsession with masturbation that he likes to project as well
Aren't all the bad guys on the right? Who are those liberal bad guys that think the system should not be changed?