Forum Post: Proposed list of OWS Demands
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 23, 2011, 11:21 p.m. EST by anonymous
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This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Admin Note: This is not an official list of demands. The user "bchang1987" who posted this speaks only for themself, not the movement. This website would never in a million years endorse a list of demands of the 1%.
Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.
Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality.
Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation.
Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately.
Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.
Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.
Create a single-payer, universal health care system.
Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers.
Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%.
Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws.
Allow workers to elect their supervisors.
Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits.
Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich.
Ban the private ownership of land.
Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda.
Reduce the age of majority to 16.
Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons.
Release all political prisoners immediately.
Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Abolish the debt limit.
Ban private gun ownership.
Strengthen the separation of church and state.
Immediate debt forgiveness for all.
End the 'War on Drugs'.
In other words, get rid of the Constitution and implement socialism.
Get out of my country!
Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately???
Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr????? Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality????? Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws????? Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda????? Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US????
SERIOUSLY PEOPLE???? Who wrote these things??? If you truly want what you have requested, I would suggest investing in creating a time machine and moving to Germany circa 1938, of the USSR circa 1950...Loony Tunes All of you who created such ridiculous demands....Ban the private ownership of land?? then you may as well rebuild Cabrini Green.... Government controlled housing would be the alternative, and equally bad.......
You wanna talk about living in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia? You wanna talk about the evils of communism and socialism as if the USA were free from the malice of the rich and powerful? Then...
Consolidation is what will pave the way for this one world socialist government which is so abhorrent to most of the supposedly freedom loving, presumably right-wing, citizens who are ranting and raving on this discussion board. We need to ask ourselves some hard questions about the real numbers, the real people who hold the wealth in this country and what kinds of changes they are trying to make.
We need to go back to decentralized localized government and true personal freedom. If you want property rights, then you need to get angry - get angry at the 1% who have a blatant disregard for anyone's property rights but their own.
This list and this discussion, suffer from a severe setback which is the tendency of many to engage in the logical fallacy that if you accept or agree with one thing on this list, that you accept all the others, or that if you accept or agree with a fundamental premise underlying one of these statements that you agree with the broad and sometimes myopically extreme wording of that statement as it appears in this list. This is, after all, just a forum post by one person and does not reflect the opinions, much less the demands, of the General Assemblies across the country.
One of the fundamental problems with majority rule is that, if you are not in the majority, you have no way to opt out of the system. If you agree with some but not all, you have no way to, as the saying goes, avoid throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Personal freedom and non-initiation of force are the most important guiding principles in this world useful for establishing a mostly fair and generally prosperous society.
When all people have an equal right to life liberty and happiness, when no one man has a disproportionate amount of wealth, thus giving him undue leverage for domination and control, and when all individuals have the freedom to do as they will except as to obstruct others in their freedom, then and only then will we have relative peace on earth.
Many of the ideas on this list are perfectly reasonable and stem from the very real discontent felt by many an average Joe. Communism didn't fail because the idea of sharing was bad. Communism failed because of corruption and greed. Capitalism hasn't failed because the idea of a truly free world in which you can do as you please is bad. Capitalism has failed because of corruption and greed resulting, just as with Communism, in a society in which a select few have undue leverage over the rest.
Utopia, as many people berate it, is not about perfection or the end of suffering or death. It's about getting back to a society that is as free and equitable as it possibly can be given the natural differences inherent in humans and our desire to be happy. If a one time re-distribution of wealth were to "reset the game" so to speak and individual rights were thereafter respected and enforced, then it would be very difficult for any one person to gain dominion over any other person or group.
After all, we as humans are often a very independent and stubborn lot. If everyone started life with their basic needs met and some reasonable amount of personal property - it would be difficult if not almost impossible for one person to persuade any one other person to give up their belongings. Think of the metaphor of herding cats.
If you want something from me, you'll have to give me a good reason to give it to you, in other words, you'll have to trade in equal exchange. If people and their communities take charge of protecting the rights of all individuals, then no individual will be able to take from others by force and amass a wealth great enough to be used as an arsenal of war.
What does utopia really look like? Not much different than the world right now with two important caveats.
1) Freedom to live and do as you wish
2) Freedom to live without fear of violent coercion
The price of this freedom, as they saying goes, is eternal vigilance. Let us band together and unite in the common goal of preserving the freedom and peace of every human in this world, even those without a voice or those who live in fear of speaking up. There is no big brother, there is only your neighbor. Love your neighbor, for if you transgress against him, not even your big brother can help you in good conscience.
couple of things here #1, we are NOT a majority rule country, we are a Rule of Law country. You would do well to learn the difference. #2, equality in our country does not mean that we all have equal stuff, that's crazy talk. Equality means that we have equal protection under the law! I accept that I will never be as successful as Bill Gates because I was not born with the same talents, nor do I possess the same passion, drive or work ethic. Taxation for the purpose of redistribution to "reset the game" is stealing, PERIOD. Let's say we "reset the game" and respected individual rights (except apparently the rights of the people who earned the money to keep it), do you know what would happen? The majority of those who were poor would eventually find their way back to being poor after they blew through the money they did not earn, just look at the stories of a majority of lottery winners and the problems it brings them till it's all gone. And the rich, from whom the wealth was taken, would find their way back to being rich because of their intellect, passion and work ethic.
You are correct, we do not live in a Democracy (majority rules) we live in a Plutocracy (money rules) http://www.google.com/search?q=citigroup+plutonomy+memo
Phrases like I "would do well to learn the difference" do nothing to help further this conversation. This does not help me, nor does it help the casual viewer or reader who may wish to know the difference without resorting to hours of research on Google or Wikipedia, much less expecting to come up with the same definition that you are using in this context.
Also, the idea of a one time reset is problematic for exactly the reason you just pointed out - it would most likely require violent coercion, i.e. it would be a form of taxation, and taxation is just a thinly veiled disguise for taking money at gun point, i.e. robbery.
This is in fact one of the primary conundrums we find ourselves in - the income gap is enormous, but resetting this income gap would likely require violent coercion which violates the non-aggression principle. The potential justification that I am offering was provided not by me, but by John Locke many decades ago - that property rights are only valid as long as there is enough to go around. In this light, the 1% are in violation of true property rights, and the 99% would be justified in taking, by force, from the 1%.
This is to make no mention of the fact that everyone is already taxed by our government anyway - i.e. we are being robbed every day and every year anyway with sales and income taxes, so it doesn't seem too far fetched for people in the 99% to stand up and demand that they be allowed to do the same. The government is already purporting to do just this: to take wealth from the masses in the name of redistribution to the poor, i.e. in the name of things like public education, wellfare, medicare, national defense and other such social programs.
The reality is that very few of our tax dollars actually go to social programs, the money that does go to these programs is often spent in wasteful ways (things like $600 toilet seats http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_seat#U.S._Navy.27s_.22.24600_Toilet_Seat.22 and not being able to account for trillions of dollars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU4GdHLUHwU come to mind), and the laws made in this country increase profits for corporations at the behest of lobbyists - who effectively make policy through their enormous campaign contributions - and to the detriment of the little guy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#In_USA and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#In_the_United_States for example - while the average Joe has no way to even come close to competing with this kind of cronyism.
Also to compare yourself to Bill Gates, or assume that your skills, abilities and potentials are somehow inferior to his is doing a dis-service to both yourself and humanity at large. There are plenty of people who are "just as smart" as if not "smarter" than Bill Gates - the numerous employees of companies like Google who are likely not anywhere near as rich as Mr. Gates come to mind. The many researchers and physicists working on the Large Hadron Collider project come to mind.
So far I don't see many solutions, only reactionary personal insults and various angry assertions that are not aimed at furthering the discussion but rather aimed at validating self serving world views.
I welcome constructive comments and solutions to this very real and very difficult issue of how to deal with the wealth gap and income equality in the United States without resorting to violent coercion and or communism.
Well said. JPWebbs utopia will never exist because it is contrary to our very human nature. Some will always work hard than others...some are willing to take more risks than others...some people are lazy and do not want to work...some people lack the discipline to work without supervision. Many of those who are willing to take risks and have strong work ethic do so because of the potential rewards for their labor. If there were equal reward regardless of how hard you worked...we would all end up rising to the level of the lowest common denominator. For lack of a better term...one cannot wish away "Darwinism." The strong will survive.
It's not my Utopia, and I believe I explained why I don't like the word Utopia specifically and the problems inherent when using the word Utopia. You are disrespecting the intelligence of every reader when you continue to both use the word Utopia in the standard colloquial sense and disregard what I have already said in what I had hoped was a very clear manner.
Many other people share the same ideas of non-aggression and respecting property rights. Not only that but you have no claim towards human nature. To say that human nature is one thing or another is to completely miss the point that the human nervous system is extraordinarily elastic - there are both good and bad people in the world, both giving and greedy, both loving and violent. To blame something on human nature is to miss the forest for the trees. Humans react to things - negative reactions are normal human reactions to negative circumstances. Given positive loving circumstances, most humans tend to respond in a positive loving manner.
Black women born to poor families do not have anywhere near as much opportunity to become multibillionaires as white men born to rich families and it's not because white men work harder. http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/12/02/study-sees-wall-street-pay-tilted-toward-white-men/ By the standards of most physicists, black women working three jobs in the labor or service industries probably do far more work than most rich white men - even by the standards of non-pysicists. If hard work were the key factor then we would have far more multibillionaires than we do now. If hard work were the key factor then the people who worked in the fields as slaves in the 1700s and 1800s would be the rulers of this country and benefactors of all the fruit of the land and their labor.
The fact remains that we have an enormous wealth gap in the USA. The fact remains also that John Locke, one of the founding fathers of the philosophy of justice and property rights ceded that property rights are only valid if there is enough to go around. Here are some good illustrations of the income equality gap in the USA and how it has been growing steadily http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/lexz2/here_is_what_occupy_wall_street_is_about_and_the/
The "one time wealth redistribution" is a thought experiment - the point is to think about what the world would be like after such a redistribution, not how to get there, and not what the average ignorant television-brainwashed poor person would do with a FEMA check given our currently sick society in which even poor people are taught to lust after material wealth.
The parable of "teach a man to fish" comes to mind. Anyone who has seen the documentary "Dark Days" should be able to clearly see that, when given true help and support, when given a real opportunity, such as shelter and a job and not just a lump of money - many if not most homeless people will be grateful and will try not to waste it. Don't falsely attribute your fictitious creation - the hypothetical failure of an idea - on the very real effect of the myriad failures of society to properly love, care for and enlighten its own citizens. That's called false causality and I think it's also called a straw man.
In a world of relative equality (of both rights and stuff) where people are well informed and compassionate, and where individual property rights are respected it would be difficult for one person to amass a disproportionate amount of wealth. Thus wars as we know them would be improbable because most people don't want to put their lives at risk for other people and without a disproportionate amount of wealth with which to both buy guns and bribe people to fight, war of conquest as we know it would likely never occur.
I truly appreciate and respect your thought provoking initial post and response. To frame our debate, we would both need to agree there are extreme examples of both good and bad and to not use extreme examples as a basis to support the larger issues. I see no need to include race into the equation unless you think that poor whites have an advantage of poor blacks. You said yourself, “there are both good and bad people in the world” I just disagree with you that they are all products of their environment. What I meant by human nature relates back to the "nature vs nurture" argument and we could entertain an entire philosophical debate over how it influences human actions, but that is not the main point here (or is it?). I am not a fan of “Eminent Domain” with the exception of extreme situations. To sum up my opinion is this, all rich people were not born into it and all poor people are not victims…many end up that way through poor choices. I think you and I are not so far apart on our views…it seems we disagree on the details and solutions. I completely disagree with the demonization of wealthy successful people. I believe successful people are more of the answer than the problem. I believe in Capitalism, it is one of the things that have made our country great. Unfortunately, this system leaves some people behind. I think one of the things we need to look at is our education system…it does not suffer from lack of funding if you compare it against other countries who rank higher than us in education but do not spend near the money. Our system definitely needs an overhaul which leads me to what I think is my main point. I think one of the reasons why the wealthy are and remain so, as well as their children are because they know and understand how money works; in contrast, most middle class and poor do not. I think one of the main areas our education systems lacks (to include the university level) is that finance is not a mandatory subject…it should be. I am not speaking merely how to manage a checking account, but teaching philosophies of money and ways for people to invest.
I think your one time massive “reset” where everyone was given an equal share of “stuff” would prove this point. I think those who understand money and how to make it work for you would eventually find their way to being wealthy again and most poor would make poor choices and be right back to being poor again…mostly from lack of understanding of how money works.
Not everyone who is wealthy was born that way. There are many people who have actually worked hard and earned it. Those are the people I am concerned for in the current political environment. It takes a lot of hard work and tolerance for risk to go into business for oneself…if someone does so and becomes successful, I do not believe they should be villainized…after all, these are the people who create jobs and opportunities for others. Rich people are generally intelligent. If we make our country a hostile environment for successful people, what do you think they will do? A. Say, my bad, I really don’t need all these things I have earned, I am going to give it away and move into a smaller house. Or B. I think I will move to Canada or Germany where they appreciate and support entrepreneurs.
To address the notion of hard work and its benefits; simply working hard does not make one successful, one must work smarter more so than harder. Working hard does not confine itself to physical labors, I find doing the mental work required to be successful is the hardest part and why most people fail. The greatest asset in today’s markets is information and how to get it faster. Of course, if you get if fast and don’t know what to do with it…it still isn’t much help is it? This is where I refer back to teaching more finance in school. Dumping a pot of money on someone who never had it before and doesn’t understand how to deal with it, will not do anything to help them in the long term. Most people in that situation will not use the money to go into business, they will buy more stuff and wait for the next hand out.
I too appreciate your cogent and well formed responses, but do you really think my choice of a black woman as an example was off the mark? Do you really believe black women of any economic status have a statistically equal chance of becoming billionaires as compared to white men of any economic status?
You have a valid point regarding industrious and intelligent individuals. You're right about working smarter and not harder. The only way to truly reach the top has very little to do with earned income, hard work, fair trade, transparency and honesty. Sorry for the veiled personal attack :)
This minority of people in control are very smart - they understand that abandonment of ethics is the primary means to and main support mechanism of power. The idea of the 1% is a false flag, which will lead many an honest hard working individual with a few million in the bank to attack the OWS movement as a bunch of lazy hippies who don't want to get a job.
The real perpetrators of the massive income equality gap are more like the 0.01%. People who can afford not one Lamborghini but 100s of them. People who can afford not only one mansion, but 100s of mansions. These kinds of people by and large do not have anyone's best interests in mind, yet they claim to. You are not talking about these kinds of people, I hope - you are talking about above average men and women who desire to better their lives through their own endeavors. This is a noble goal. There is a limit however. There is a line, that, when crossed, moves you away from being an "honest hard working man" and towards being just another form of tyranny. Kings, queens emperors and dictators have often suffered from the label of tyrant.
Kings, queens, pharaohs and emperors were able to hold their positions of power largely because of and or by the very definition of the massive amounts of wealth they gained, leading to an ability to bribe enough people to fight for them, leading to massive standing armies. Now that bankers have all the money, we look the other way and turn a blind cheek to this type of tyranny. Now that we have a United Nations, it doesn't look like any one person is amassing an army - we just pick and chose a few corporations', er, excuse me I mean, countries to help further the current global agenda by sending their human tax-cattle, er, I mean militias, to get killed, er I mean defend, the interests of the global elite, er, I mean against terrorism.
I like the idea that through my intelligence and hard work I could garner, for myself, a much nicer lot in life perhaps a spacious house in natural surroundings - but in the end, I only really need a limited amount and I only really want enough to be happy - I don't need 100 Lamborghinis, nor do I need to own the fruits of the labor of your children's children as our governments own us and have promised the sweat of our future descendants as collateral on loans to buy guns to go kill and entrap, in fiat debt slavery, the children of other countries, into paying greedy corporate interests for the privilege of being bombed in to submission, er I mean liberated, and the subsequent rebuilding of their own houses and cities, their own oil pipelines, new oil pipelines, and other infrastructure to funnel the natural resources of those countries away from their citizens and back to the rich and greedy.
There is a difference between a man earning his wealth and a man quietly - and sometimes not so quietly - stepping on other people's heads, pushing them down in to the muck without remorse, to reach the top of the food chain.
There may or may not be extra hurdles for minorities, but if you happen to be a black female starting a small business, there is a lot of extra help and benefits available for her. I agree with you that there are some at the very top of the economic scale who are at the very least, immoral. Really, after so many cars and homes, how could any more actually bring you any joy anyway? I suppose my question is what is the solution? Is there an effective solution that would only affect the .01%? Keep in mind how much power the .01% has over our political system. Though they may be disgustingly greedy, they likely employ thousands of workers and their stock dividends support many people’s 401Ks. Would you recommend the carrot or the stick approach? I see wealth in the western world as a typical bell curve. The unfortunate reality is, any action one takes that would truly have in impact on the 1% will also have an effect on nearly everyone to the left of them on the bell curve. Personally, I think the .01% we speak of suffer from addiction…only they are addicted to money, power and or status. I am not suggesting they are a victim, I am trying to figure out how someone can be so unremorsefully greedy. I am trying to understand the OWS movement. In my humble opinion, the biggest problem for OWS is they need a leader/spokesman and better PR campaign. Considering the sophistication of the problem at hand…our entire economic system and way of life really, what is camping out in public parks going to accomplish? Most people will agree excessive greed is bad, and that there are some selfish, immoral, and disgustingly wealthy people in the world. But, what I do not understand is what is OWS’s solution to this problem? Honestly, I think there are many people out there who perceive OWS as akin to a child saying, “You’re mean” then sitting on the floor with their legs and arms crossed waiting to get their way.
"I am trying to understand the OWS movement" ... then later ... "OWS as akin to a child saying, “You’re mean” then sitting on the floor with their legs and arms crossed waiting to get their way"
I don't think you're trying to understand the movement. It sounds like you've made up your mind already. You say you agree etc etc, but...
The notion that, through affirmative action, black females have an edge in becoming billionaires is laughable. I didn't say small business, I'm talking multi billionaires and trillionaires.
The notion that we can't change things because the rich employ a lot of people is ridiculous.
What will camping out in public parks accomplish? When there are millions doing it then it will accomplish change. We just need enough people to wake up and say "no I don't want to participate in this system because it's unethical". You don't need to have perfect solutions to a problem to point out that there's a problem.
I would not say my mind is made up yet...what I mean to say is there is no clear voice for OWS and without a clear voice and realistic solutions, it will be difficult for mainstream middle class to take it seriously or get involved.
I am not suggesting change can or should not happen because the rich employ many people, I am suggesting the solution to this problem is very complex and it will be difficult to get what you want from the very rich without effecting everyone else.
The middle class out of all people should probably be angriest, the people who worked hard for the money that was stolen from them. Too many people are stuck in a hypnotic semi-catatonic television induced fast food coma to care. The Colosseum was an integral part of the Roman political strategy to distract people from what's really going on.
Even a little bit rich is too rich if there are starving people in the world. Greed is the cause of war - one man or country taking the wealth (land, resources, control, etc) of another.
There IS one clear and obvious solution: get everyone to wake up and see that we live in a culture of violence and greed. Get everyone to wake up and universally embrace the values of love and human rights. Get everyone to together to see that they are not alone in wanting these simple things.
This is the only solution that has been proven successful both by Gandhi and Mr Luther King among others.
Lack of a perfect solution to the fake complexities of a fake and fraudulent state-sponsored systematic sham is not a valid justification for the suffering on this planet.
Informing people is a very clear and realistic solution.
If you're still confused about what OWS represents... if you can't see this simple defiance of hatred and greed, this universal message of love and respect, then you just don't want to.
"This is the only solution that has been proven successful both by Gandhi and Mr Luther King among others."
One of those others was Christ, and the Christian church is trying to spread that message as well. Not perfectly, but it is trying.
Perhaps the members of OWS should take a look through the gospels and apply some of that to their movement.
This is not appropriate, not on topic, and there's no proof that Jesus was a real person. There is much more evidence to support the theory that the story of Jesus is yet another in a long line of similar fairy tales such as Horus and Mithra dating back to thousands of years before the alleged time of Jesus.
Far more death and destruction has been wrought by people claiming to have certain and irrefutable proof of what happens after we die. I am speaking of all religions, and not just Your Favorite Religion (TM). This is arrogance and hypocrisy on the largest scale imaginable.
The biggest problem in the world is that we have developed technology to destroy the earth before we have developed a loving and co-operative society capable of supporting the billions of people here. Most if not all of this destruction has been in the name of religion.
The idea that ethics can only come from god is laughable. Do a google search for secular ethics. I'll refer you to Stefan Molyneux on this point because he does, if nothing else, at least a very thorough job of explaining rational thought and the rational (non-magical) derivation of ethics.
If you must preach about Jesus, please do so with more integrity and less magical thinking, like Thomas Jefferson did, and stick to the things that Jesus supposedly said about right and wrong http://www.amazon.com/Jefferson-Bible-Thomas/dp/0807077143
Actually... if you must preach about Jesus... please don't. At the very least, preach in the appropriate venue, like your church, where people actually want to hear your message.
Thank you.
Exactly! If all the rich people's money is gathered up as the occupiers want and re-distributed and handed out, most of the people will spend theirs in one day. And then what will happen? They will complain that those of us who are better with saving & taking care of money have more money than they do, and the occupiers will moan and groan about us all over again! Obviously they haven't thought past their own noses......
A good deal of the wealth is inherited, not made by work ethic, intellect or passion.
Really??? What exactly do you base this "opinion" on? I say opinion because it is obviously not based on fact. Even if it were, are you suggesting that if you were to work hard all your life and became successful, that somehow, everyone other than your family is entitled to that wealth once you die?
It's based on where the dividends go and who owns corporate stock. Work hard clipping dividend coupons or its electronic equivalent. All success is based on the society. Dropped off on a deserted island at birth nobody would be successful.
scvblwxq, I dont think I follow your logic. Everyone with a 401K benifits from dividends. There are people with "old money" but there are many who made it themselves and benifited society in the process...Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zukerburg to name a few, they did not come from wealthy families and sponge off their parents. They took risks and were rewarded for their efforts.
I was saying that the founders of successful companies did not succeed in a vacuum. They used the benefits of society such as language, law, prior scientific knowledge to become successful.
There has been an implicit agreement that corporations are allowed by law, their owners will get rich and they will hire a large number of US citizens to produce their products.
In the last 20 years with the advances in communications it became possible to manage factories overseas and hire overseas and with China's devaluations the US economy lost millions of jobs to China leaving us in our current situation.
I don't think anyone minded people becoming rich from good ideas as long as decent jobs were available for everyone but with some people getting extremely rich while many are getting poor does not seem right.
We have an obsolete monetary system where the Fed has an unlimited checkbook backed by the full faith and credit of the US.
The Fed deposits money in the big banks, they lend the money out multiplying it by around 10X. Then the government borrows the money back with interest and spends it.
This might have been efficient 100 years ago when everything was paper and the interest was used to compensate the people for their troubles but now everything is electronic.
The Constitution gives the government the ability to coin money and we should use that ability saving hundreds of billions if not trillions in interest. http://monetary.org for a plan and a bill.
The main function of taxes should be to make sure government spending isn't too inflationary.
Taxes are also used to reward(job creators etc.) or help certain groups by giving them discounts from the maximum rate, but getting discounts from the maximum rate has become an end in itself and those who are failing to provide jobs are getting discounts by virtue of their political power.
Yes, Capitalism has failed because of corruption and greed. Corruption and greed always results when government intrudes in free markets. Free markets allow individuals maximum opportunity to work hard and improve their station in life. Are you suggesting that the wealthy got that way instead by "[taking] from others by force?" Its hard to know where you stand.
The corporations and lobbyists write laws to have the the government intrude in markets for their benefit which is the corruption. The pay to have the laws they want with campaign contributions.
You have to same opportunity to utilize the rules as they are to be successful yourself. I suppose it is easier to complain about it than actually work at it. If you did work at it and become successfull, would you give all but what you needed for necessities back to the government so they could spread the wealth around to those who deserve it more than you?
I have never objected to the use of the taxes I've paid being used to help someone less fortunate or less lucky.I've been a programmer for 35 years so I can't complain.
What I do object to is corporations outsourcing 20 million jobs overseas and corporations moving 100,000 factories to China because China devalued its currency to make everything in China 80% cheaper in US dollars.
The communists said that they would use capitalism to defeat the capitalists and it looks like they are well on their way.
I think taxes are part of the problem. Why do you think corporations outsource? Labor in America is very expensive and corporate tax rates are relatively high here as well. I think we should examine ways to make it more benificial for companies to keep their operations at home...and they will. Companies are in business to make money...they are not a jobs program. If the company goes out of business, everyone looses.
The devaluations by China are the reason why labor in China is so much cheaper.
If you look at haircuts which is a universal service a cheap haircut in China costs around 6 Yuan a cheap haircut in the US maybe $10.
With the exchange rate of around 6 Yuan per US dollar that makes haircuts in China about $1 in US dollars.
With prices and labor so cheap in USD companies convert their dollars to Yuan then manufacture in China and sell their products in the US for dollars at about the same prices as when the products were made in the US making large profits.
It seems to me that price-fixing must also be involved to keep US prices from falling due to competition.
China had 38,000 price-fixing cases last year so the practice is widespread which if applied to US manufactures in China would explain the high prices US consumers pay for low-cost products.
Why the hatred on China? OWS is trying to help the 99%, right?
According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_inequality), the entirety of the USA is in that 1% or very close to it. The fact that China has a lower standard of living only emphasizes it.
It seems to me that the goal of OWS, helping the 99%, would be better served by giving the Chinese more jobs so their standard of living can be raised to the same level as US.
China is already seeking immigrants to work there. China has acted intelligently in its best interests which is what it is suppose to do. My complaint is with the failure of the US to protect its jobs.
"Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.
Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US."
That is not helping the US protect its jobs.....
Here is the capitalist network that runs the world. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html
The original poster people are responding to is not advocating a decentralized localized government. This person is, in fact advocating for strengthening the federal government and reducing personal freedom in the guise of letting in anyone who wants to come here and smoke whatever they want. The poster is also advocating taking 95% of all income of the highest income earners. Failing to reward those who work hard leads to very low standards. The Soviet block's performance proves that if nothing else.
Some work very had like doctors, the biggest chunk of money goes to stock dividends which doesn't involve any hard work.
Actually the Soviet Union was as productive as the US, witness the space race. Their problem was that they felt the had to spend 50% of their GDP on defense because of all of their hostile neighbors were emboldened by US support, the US only had to spend around 10% of its GDP on defense.
Under communism Russia did go from periodic deadly famines killing millions to the second most powerful country in the world in a very short time by historical standards.
You can reward those who work very hard under communism/socialism if that's what the workers want, its their show.
Are you including the famines created by the Communist government to force the Ukrainians to surrender to Stalin? The Ukrain was the breadbasket of Asia until Stalin stole the food from the people living there killing 25 million people via slow, agonizing starvation. This is the type of hostile neighbor that you espouse. I lived there. Despite your hyperbole, the Soviet system created a shared poverty level that was dehumanizing and inherently corrupt. If you want to see how well Communism works visit North Korea some time.
That was the last of the famines I think or at least close to the last.
If N.Korea is the example of communism I guess Afghanistan was the shining example of capitalism
Communist/Socialist China is doing quite well growing 8-10% a year manufacturing products for the US(see Walmart) and the world.
Funny, I asked my parents best friends who escaped the Soviet Union in the 80's what they used to eat for Chrstmas dinner. Their answer; Vodka...there was nothing else. They said anytime they could get meat, they had a party. Your logic is also faulty in that the U.S. also spends tons of money on milittary defense and had to defend ourselves against Soveit Russia itself yet we haven't had a famine or starving masses to accomplish that. You have no idea what you are talking about. While we're at it, take a good look at "the worker's paradise" 90 mikes off our shore. They finally had to resort back to private ownership of propert because everything was rotting to the ground because no ne had a stake in improving anything since it didn't belong to them. Again, you have no idea...
The USSR spent 50% of its GDP on defense compared to 10% of the US GDP spent on defense. The GDP per person or the amount produced per person was about the same, look it up.
Sounds like a list put together by 9th graders or less.
China a socialist country by their constitution and run by the communist party is doing the best economically with an 8-10% growth rate per year for many years assisted by 100,000+ factories moved to China from the US and an unknown(by me) number of factories moved from Europe and the rest of the would.
Germany is the largest economy in Europe with 80% unionization and union representation on the board of directors
China runs a capitalist manufacturing sector, created in the 70's to fight the total collapse of their economy caused by the communist model.
China is still run by their Communist Party and their constitution still says they are a Socialist country. You can run capitalism underneath socialism.
50+ years ago they said that they would use capitalism to defeat the capitalists and it looks like they are well on their way.
They said they would use capitalism to defeat the capitalists.
This is an answer?
I'm a socialist, and there are parts of this I definitely could not support, precisely because I couldn't condone the parts that DO violate our constitutional rights. For instance, I believe parents should have the right to homeschool (even though I don't think homeschooling is generally a good idea). As a socialist, I support our bills of rights wholeheartedly. You seem rather confused. Socialism is simply an economic system that seeks to place more power and resources into the hand of labor, to guarantee laborers a more fair share of the profit of their labors, rather than funnel that profit into the hands of a few wealthy capitalists who exploit workers for their own profit. Putting more power and resources into the hands of the people who actually work and produce stuff (rather than CEOs who sit in cushy chairs, push papers around and exploit workers) would protect the rights of laborers and, in the end, guarantee a freer society. Granted, abuses have been committed in the name of socialism, but they are not representative of the actual ideals of the philosophy, any more than genocide on Native Americans represents the teachings of Jesus.
First and foremost, the following are economic systems:
• Capitalism – Private citizens own the tools of production • Socialism – The Government owns the tools of production • Communism - The workers own the tools of production
Capitalism would work with little or no functional government on either local or a larger, federal level. Communism, as envisioned Karl Marx, has no central government and only limited local or regional political structure. Socialism, on the other hand, requires a strong central government in order to take possession of the tools of production. Under Marxian theory, the Socialist economy will be developed in preparation for an orderly transition to that Victorian fantasy of the utopian paradise: Communism. But, a funny thing happened on the way to the forum. . .
One can scan the pages of history in vain to find single example of a Socialist government on any scale that relinquished economic and political power to move into the final Marxian phase of Communism. Never, ever! Once that amount of power and authority is obtained, it has never been returned to form this ‘worker’s paradise’ as promised, or envisioned. While one is perusing the past, find an example of a system that stopped at Socialism that actually worked. People, who put their lives and their faith in a government to provide for them, always turn out as disenchanted, disillusioned, disgusted, demoralized and destroyed. This last point brings us to the ongoing situation of today.
The current groups of individuals in the various large cities in this country are being used in order to foment rebellion against our shrinking capitalist economy. This point is self evident. They are being driven to this end by the most ancient of human frailties: Covetousness and envy. They are the workers that are being used to build a new economic and political structure. The skeletal framework of this new economic and social edifice is being erected one floor at a time. What the new structure looks like is being hidden behind clapboard walls. We must wait for the facade to be removed in order to view what has been constructed. We see the structure being raised, but who are the architects?
You've never heard of Norway, Finland, or Sweden?
Socialism is NOT simply an economic system, and not just putting more power into people's hand (Proletariat), it's about making the government the central power. The church of the left!. Here is the definition right from the Webster's Dictionary. you might want to look it up so you actually understand the concept:
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
Communism is a political system. Socialism is an economic system.
You can run state capitalism and private capitalism underneath socialism, witness China. Socialism pretty much you do everything for the benefit of the society and yourself.. We were running capitalism underneath democracy until the corporations got it seems effective control of our democracy. These ideas are usually mixed and matched. A little of this and a little of that.
And Socialism has worked where? Understand if humans are involved corruption will occur. Take the story of Cain and Able. No money, no enemies, no wars. Living peacefully. Yet one killed the other over an emotion. Dudes it's the human condition. There is no silver bullet. Nothing is perfect. If arguments were made to abolish government corruption and lessen the the strength of the government and give more states rights. Then we can have a discussion. It's easy to point out problems the grown up thing to do is have a solution when you complain.
Democratic government with a mix of socialism and free markets has worked quite well in Finland, Norway, Sweden, Canada, and elsewhere, where everybody gets health care and appropriate education, unemployment is lower, standard of living is higher, and national debit is lower.
China is socialist by their constitution. Does socialism work? 100,000+ US factories moved to China and just look for "Made in China" labels at Walmart. A socialist country can run a capitalist system underneath it such as China's state run capitalism.
Socialism is embraced by those who don't understand innovation. If you figure out a way to make better widgets and build a successful company around it, didn't you just produce something valuable? Though not worthless, labor is generally less valuable in the marketplace than innovation. Labor is easy to replace but only a few truly innovate. Today's quality of life (including personal freedom enjoyed in this country) is a product of Capitalism, not Socialism. Socialism is put a path to tyrany.
Well most consumer products come from communist/socialist China. The state owned corporations control the assets of 80% of China's top 500 corporations.
It makes sense, it really doesn't usually make a lot of difference who owns the stock of a company. A pension fund, a bunch of little investors or the government can own the stock, the workers keep innovating and producing no matter who owns stock.
But those products are not the actual innovations. They are mass produced copies of the innovations, for the most part. If workers had been innovating in China in the communist era, they would have had new products to sell, not copies of other people's products.
However on the freer market of the new China innovation is allowed in private companies and new ideas and products are the result.
Have you looked at toys from China a good market and appliances and clothes and shoes.
Lots of products don't need great innovation like jeans and shoes and even when innovation occurs like in Apple products and other electronics it is made in China because of currency differences.
On TV they said China manufactures half of the products of the world, I can't verify that. Europe is hurting also.
The government has funded most of the research that leads to innovation not only in the US but around the world.
We would rather let private interest do the innovation but the government also does it, just look at government patents or university patents.
Most of the early semiconductor R&D was supported by the government for military applications as was the Internet and the Web which was developed by European governments at CERN.
Corporations fiduciary duty is to make as money as possible for their stockholders by law, so they are doing what they are suppose to do but sometimes it hurts others which leads to lots of regulations.
Maybe their fiduciary duty should be changed to include society in some form, but profit is easy to calculate while harm or benefit to society is much more difficult. Though sending 100,000+ factories to China is clearly harmful to the US.
What exactly IS socialism?
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
So given that 1.) government is, by definition, the organized use of force and/or coercion
and
2.) That the principle 'means of production' is man's exercise of his mind
A socialist believes that a man should be forced by government to produce for the benefit of others and receive compensation not based upon what he provides, but what the government determines he should have? This leads quickly to a situation where those who can produce most efficiently are bled dry of their ability for the sake of those who cannot or will not produce.
And as far as a 'society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state', isn't that what we have? Is OWS simply a protest against the 'corporate' control of the state OR of the state control of human life? If it is the former, then I propose that it does not matter whether a corporation controls the government or some other organization controls the government if the result is that individual rights are subordinated to the whims of the government.
The workers get to choose the people that make up the government in socialism, in our current capitalism the corporations choose the people that run the government via campaign contributions.
In a situation where the government controls whether or not you have a TV, what channels you can watch, whether or not you can have a radio, what stations you can tune into, whether or not you can have a computer, where you can go on the internet, what magazines/books/newspapers you can read or publish, etc... How can you possibly believe that people will have access to information which is NOT propaganda? How can you possibly assert that 'workers' will control the government?
Also, we do NOT have capitalism in America.
The model is that the workers nominate candidates to the Communist Party and if accepted they join the party.
China is on a economic wartime footing with the capitalists of the world and asks sacrifices of its population.
workers have all the freedom they need. They can choose who to work for, and if their choices are limited because of the scant value they bring to the table there are many opportunities to comb the web and other resources for training that will advance their skills. Right now american workers on average are being out bid by the emerging market workers - that leaves them with two choices: lower prices of labor or enhance the quality of output. If you increase the price of labor with no increase in the quality of output, what do you think will happen to demand for american goods? Econ 101
I completely agree with you colofreebird. I think this is where the rub is between the left and right. I think the left feel those at the top could afford to take a bigger paycut...or offer lower stock dividends rather than cut the pay of your labor force. I am a Republican and I think people deserve to be rich...but I also think that executives have a responsibility to take better care of their work force.
Well 100,000+ US factories moved to China because China devalued its currency making everything including labor 80% cheaper.
The workers did nothing wrong, the US government failed to protect our jobs probably to get campaign contributions from the factory owners that moved.
Goods from China are of terrible quality in my experience. Coats aren't warm probably because China is so hot. Things fail to work very long and in one case the product two pieces wouldn't even fit together.
I think since costs in China are so low(in US dollars) and the prices are about the same as when produced in the US, Anti-Trust price-fixing is occurring with extra high profits. China had 38,000 Anti-Trust cases last year so the practice in China is common.
Emerging markets edge free markets by using slave labor. See China. How can we compete with nearly free labor? No wonder we have no manufacturing left in the US! OWS should be protesting in the streets of China, not here.
China's "slave" labor at US factories in China is the result of US companies decisions not China.
You are no history professor I could tell you that. The ideology you speak of Beas proven wrong long ago but I really don't have time to educate you. Your theory sounds good though. Keep saying it I'm sure some naive fool will repeat it.
Combing the web may be edifying, but it won't give you a degree, unless you pay for courses, and many lack the funds to do that. Also, American workers can't choose where to work if there are no jobs. One can't simply walk into a factory and say,"Hey, I'm going to work here now!" (especially since they've all moved to Mexico or China). Clearly, in your privileged position, you fail to recognize the difficulties many less fortunate people face. For the record, yes, I have work. I am self-employed, and lately I've been quite busy. I paid my own way through college, painting houses and waiting tables, etc., and I've been pretty lucky in recent years. I struggled for a long time, however, and I recognize that others legitimately struggle, too, and often lack some of the advantages I had, or some of the luck I've had. It wasn't easy for me. It isn't easy for others. For some, it is even harder. And now, there are plenty of people who studied, worked, did everything right, then lost their job when corporations "downsized" and "outsourced" in the name of "recession", then posted record profits, or lost their homes to illegal foreclosures. I know many such people. They worked hard. They did the right things, and they still lost everything. It is for those people, my fellow Americans, that I support OWS.
I hear you, so what is your solution?
The Senate bill to declare China a currency manipulator would be a start. Chinese officials blast Senate currency bill http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/11/news/economy/china_currency/index.htm
China manipulates currency, U.S. panel says http://money.cnn.com/2010/11/17/news/international/China_US_economic_security_review/index.htm?iid=EAL
China's devaluations made 100,000+ US factories fire their US workers and move to China or go bankrupt from competition from those that moved.
Regulating banks and getting corporate (ie. Wall St.) money out of our government is a good start. These are the primary focus of the OWS protests.
What does that regulation look like?
This is a decoy and Not the list of demands, nobody would seriosly see "open the borders" and "unionize all workers" as a way to restore America. Start flagging the bogus demand lists as they are only meant to turn the Middle Class against OWS.
Germany has 80% of its workers unionized with union representation on the board of directors and they are doing better than the US or the rest of Europe.
I'm no Socialist by any stretch of the imagination my friend but you need an education. Socialism is an economic structure. You could have Socialism and still have your bill of rights. You now live in a country where corporations control your government. Socialism is when the government controls the corporation. Which do you prefer?
You=stupid Yes corporations need to gtfo my government, but socialism is definitely not the answer. Socialism would destroy us entirely. Le United Soviet Socialist Republic anyone? It's really not a good idea.
Now now did I not say I am no fan of Socialism. My point was that your freedom comes from the bill of rights and your capitalists are ripping it to pieces. Therefore, you are losing your freedom under the present system. Not to mention half of Europe is Socialist including the Nordic countries. They probably have more freedom that us right now. You choose the USSR as your Socialist model because you are either indoctrinated with right wing propaganda or naive to the real world. Again I am no Socialist but I am a realist. Please get an education.
You can SAY you're not a socialist but your views contradict you. Pure capitalism saved the world in the late 1700's, not socialism. Our Bill of Rights would wither instantly under socialism. The Progressives are ripping up the Constitution while calling themselves Capitalists. Socialism is great until you understand that it ignores human nature. Get the gov out of Capitalism and it will save us again.
OMG! You are clueless. Got your historical education from You Tube propaganda videos I see. LOL! First things first. The result of free market capitalism was slave labor in the US. 1870 - early 1900s 14 hours a day 7 days a week for straight time, poor working conditions, child labor and monopolies that resulted in about 5 people controlling everything from the price of food to the transportation people took to work. Slaves my friend. No middle class just slaves. Research the Sherman act and the Pullman Strike and the Ludlow Massacre for starters. Research Hoover and the depression. Don't come on this site with your 6th grade education and try to push your free market saved the world ignorance. American jobs are now in China because of the so called free trade or GATT treaty to be specific. I don't have time to feed you baby food kid. Pick up a book once in a while will ya. I believe in capitalism but highly regulated. Here's a little history for you:
http://youtu.be/YW6KkF6aa_A
http://youtu.be/AzULm4d8h8w
All our stuff is made in communist/socialist China.
All of the corporations that could move to socialist China left and they have more government regulations than the US.
They moved because China devalued its currency which made everything in China 80% cheaper in US dollars.
China has probably as big a GDP as the US now when currency devaluations are taken into account at with their growth rate will be twice as big an economy as the US in abound 8 years.
China has enough money at the Fed to buy up all the US farmland.
China has taught 300 million of its citizens English maybe to replace us or if we are lucky to ease our transition.
BTW Glenn Beck is an idiot.
Look. Lets be clear here. It is not capitalist but corporatist's. There is a very real and distinct difference. I think everyone at the OWS camps should play this video so we can all quick fighting with each other and get to the real truth of the matter.
Watch this video to find out who the real enemy is in this country and to the world. These guys are the real terrorists. These are the people we HAVE TO TAKE DOWN before ANYTHING CHANGES. WAKE UP OWS. Capitalism is not the problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZPWH5TlbloU
I think prices-fixing is occurring on products made in China.
Their costs are very low due to currency devaluations yet the prices are about the same as when the products were in the US.
Even the FBI handbooks says those are signs of price fixing.
China had 38,000 cases of price-fixing last year so the practice is common in China.
So after watching that video.. For the first time, and not learning anything I didn't already know... I'm wondering where occupy was when the bailouts happened? I have to assume that people who like the ideas in the video agree with the tea party folks that were out protesting it before we got worked over YET AGAIN! Between these two movements I see a viable third party that could manifest both green and libertarian... But when I look at the news, it seems like these two movements have been gobbled up by the existing dichotomous system. At least in the media lens.. Perhaps not at the grassroots level.
16 Trillion of bailouts by the Fed to corporations in the US and all over the world happened in secret. http://www.unelected.org/audit-of-the-federal-reserve-reveals-16-trillion-in-secret-bailouts
Ok Bro OWS and myself are aware of that. Please tell me you know that. If not you haven't put enough time into researching the movement. BTW I emailed that video out to all my friends months ago. We are on the same side brother but the banking system is just part of the problem. Here's a couple links for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7Fzm1hEiDQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://youtu.be/AzULm4d8h8w
Frankly, I'm going to assume that the "ban private gun ownership" part of the list was added by some conservative hoping to whip up fear against the occupy movement. (See, they're going to take away our guns, I told you this day would come, wake Charlton Heston!!) Because otherwise that bit doesn't fit at all, and makes no sense with the whole stand-against-economic injustice thing. Really, though if it's user submitted, what's stopping some conservative blowhard for adding weird stuff like that to kill the movement?
Conspiracy theorist? ... Unfortunately we can't blame this one on conservatives or liberals... you can blame this on people joining a cause with no actual cause... so then you just get a random collection of ideas and wants thrown into a pot.... Its like cooking but instead of having a recipe you are just throwing all the random stuff you can find and hope for the best it turns out good.
You must be on "Soma." If your criteria for demands that don't belong on the list are those which don't fit the "whole stand-against-economic injustice thing," you left off separation of church and state, releasing death row and life convicts, releasing political prisoners, ending the 'War on Drugs', etc. This list looks like one put together by a bunch of lazy, Union stoners that want to get paid and taken care of while they sit on their rear ends.
You are probably driving on union made roads and bridges while you sit on your rear end.
Germany has 80% of its workers unionized with union representation on the board of directors and they are doing better than the US or the rest of Europe.
How about evidence-based comments instead of far right urban myths.
Right-wing trolls manipulating democratic systems. Whodathunkit.
I don't know what the hell people are talking about whenever they say that Capitalism is inherent in the Constitution.
I'd like to point to a logical flaw in the most common argument used for property rights - which is not to say that all private property is wrong. This argument towards logical fallacy is to say nothing of the very real fraudulent activity through which our land was gained in the first place - that it was the rich 1%ers who bought the land from the government which broke every treaty ever signed with the Native Americans.
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/11/the-problem-with-occupation-in-the-occupy-movement.html
If you do agree with the standard logical derivation of private private property rights and private land ownership, then that means that most of the people inhabiting North America should probably leave (and I doubt that will go over well), because the land, according to theory, rightfully belongs to the original people who arrived here and lived off the land from the fruit of their labor - the hunter gatherer tribes that became those whom we've mistakenly called "the Indians" to this day. Also realize that the Constitution was written by rich land owners, who were, at the time, the only ones allowed to vote.
Just because there is a logical fallacy in the most common argument proposed for property rights doesn't mean property rights aren't real or shouldn't be respected. The biggest problem is the hypocritical enforcement of property rights in our country.
The faulty logic chain usually goes like this:
This is invalid for two reasons
1) The idea of self-ownership is a tautology. It's a circular definition. It's meaningless. It's like saying "A cat is itself a cat", there is no informational content and so this definition cannot be used as the starting point of a logic chain. This alone should be enough to disqualify the case for private land ownership, but I'm sure most people will not accept this as "enough", so ...
2) Even supposing that self-ownership is legitimate, it is a non-sequitur to extrapolate this out in to the surrounding world. That is, one does not follow from the other. In other words, just because you can own your self does not mean that you can own me or own the trees, dirt or air around us. If the labor theory of property is correct then a doctor who performs surgery on a patient then owns that patient.
Furthermore, John Locke ceded that private property could only exist if there is enough for everyone. You can take as much as you like until you are taking away from others. This idea mirrors a central tenet of the Occupy movement: "We are the 99% - the 1% have taken too much and now it's time to give some back."
Again this doesn't completely preclude all private property, nor does it preclude people being able to own some land. Property rights are more correctly derived from liberty - the freedom to do as desired and needed so long as you don't tread on others. The fact remains, however, that the consolidation of power in this country has reached an all time high. Fewer and fewer companies own more and more of the land and these big companies are shutting out and shutting down small family farms, making it harder and harder for the little guy to even get a piece of the pie to begin with. It's time for a change, to say the least.
You demand that workers benefit more from the goods and services they produce. Sounds like you are making the case for MORE private ownership of property, not less. You people would be more convincing if you could cite even one example of a successful society that has implemented your ideas. Until then.....
I have no demands. It seems obvious that you have failed to read, or you have misread, or misunderstood what I am saying. You have at the very least, misconstrued and misrepresented what I am saying. I am simply pointing to a fallacy in the most common logical derivation of property rights. Please don't put words in my mouth. And I can cite several examples of successful societies - the Iroquois, the Asmat and the Arawaks to name but a few. Of course, I suppose this depends on your definition of success and progress - I am simply pointing to highly populous and thriving societies in which strict private property as we know it today was limited or practically non-existent. And yes I am aware that the Asmat and Arawaks were cannibals. The Iroquois however, were not cannibals. Don't avoid the fact that, within each tribe in all of these societies there were no starving people, no judges, no lawyers, no courts and very little conception of strict personal property. All of these societies took care of all of their members, no one went hungry and no one was allowed dominion over others within the tribe.
Food, Inc. lifts the veil on our nation's food industry, exposing how our nation's food supply is now controlled by a handful of corporations that often put profit ahead of consumer health, the livelihood of the American farmer, the safety of workers and our own environment. Food, Inc. reveals surprising and often shocking truths about what we eat, how it's produced and who we have become as a nation. http://www.foodincmovie.com/ The movie had one segment on a family farmer who had to take out $500,000 in bank loans to make a corporations demands and was only making $30,000 in profit after all of the costs. Monsanto, I think, which sells the genetically engineered seeds make the farmers buy their seed because if a seed from a neighbors crop blows into your field their lawyers will tie the farmer up with expensive lawsuits for years.
The 147 multinational corporations and banks that ran the world in 2007 and I guess are responsible for the condition of the world.
http://theoldspeakjournal.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/revealed-the-transnational-corporate-network-that-runs-the-world/
You are the new king of mental masturbation. Congrats!
"Mental masturbation" is a term fondly used by those who lack the intellectual capacity to comprehend anything not fed to them by Faux News and Glenn Beck. I would take its application here as a compliment, JPWebb.
It took you 24 hours to come up with that lame comment?
No. It took me about 30 seconds. Why?
[Deleted]
Hey, asswipe, I am by no means rich, definitely nowhere in the top 1%. But you DO NOT speak for 99% of this country, including me. You are a 1% of pathetic hippies that would rather come up with these pathetic and moronic lists of demands or go sit in a park and be fed on ACORN's dime, than get a friggin' job and make an honest living and be proud of your accomplishments. Disgusting your whole lot is!
Not socialism, but communism. Seriously, the per-capita income average in the US, assuming everybody who is working is working full time, is just under $20 an hour. http://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2011/11/ows-officially-loses-contact-with.html
It's your country huh? That's funny, last time I checked this was everyone's country.
A person being a citizen does not mean a person owns any land. This country should focus on protecting the borders to regulate the workforce and to eliminate threats on our freedoms and our rights. When a people fear the government, we have a tyranny. It is the government who should be respectful of the people. In this nation, the people who work to accomplish should be rewarded for their accomplishments, not have their salaries leveled because someone else chose not to take the same path. Penalizing those who have more than you is just childish. The sad part to these demands is that many of you far leftists believe in them. Yet you have absolutely no comprehension of business or economy, nor do you care. You think businesses are bad because they export their jobs, yet your demands on wages would otherwise bankrupt most small businesses and cripple many large ones. You walk around with your iphones and ipads, but you never realize that you are supporting a major cooperation by your purchases. The list of demands do not give a dollar amount to Rich, so what is Rich? Would you say that anyone who stars in a Hollywood movie is Rich? Do you think Seinfiend should have only been paid $18 per show? Is he a bad person for getting $1million each time? What about our President? He's the driver of our country right now, is he Rich? As I read your comments, you like to blame anyone except those who stand on the left. Let's hear it, are there any mean ole rich folx on the left?
No one has complained very much before now about people getting rich but when rich people get richer by hurting other US citizens making them poor and moving their jobs overseas it is time to change the rules.
I agree, let's change the rules. Let's make it more advantageous for businesses to keep the jobs here in America. The way we do this is to offer incentives to the businesses or not tax them so much for each employee. The reason jobs are being sent overseas is because it's cheaper to get the labor there, without all the regulation or taxes per worker than it is here in America. While there are some bad examples of corrupt business, to punish everyone for some is wrong.
If 1 in 100 businesses practice bad business, should the other 99% also suffer the punishment? And what exactly is your definition of rich? I read it being thrown around here a lot, but nobody will set a clear definition of what constitutes rich.
With China the reason the companies moved their factories to China was that China devalued its currency to the point everything in China(labor, materials, capital equipment) was 80% cheaper in US dollars.
I've read that after around $50,000 in the bank the value of additional dollars starts declining so at least people feel they have enough around that figure.
In the context that I used rich, it would be someone that owned a factory and could move it to China and import the products to the US and have the government agree with its putting all of its US workers out of work and limiting its taxes in that manner.
we can force them out.
Holy cow, there is no way this list is representative of anything the occupy wallstreet movement is trying to do. It's a wet-dream of things that Conservatives like to claim that liberals are trying to do (ban guns? abolish home-schooling? ban private-ownership of land?? Seriously) This list is clearly a thinly-veiled straw-man tactic meant to discredit the movement and make us look like the kind of crazies that Fox News fears.
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Isn't this the OWS website? Why don't one of "us" take it down if you do not endorse this list? Why would FOX News fear a bunch of crazies? It makes the news.
Uh. . . it ins't YOUR country; it's OURS. How about we share?
I have the gun, therefore it IS my country.
You nailed it. OWS hates freedom.
OWS hates freedom for corporations to hurt US citizens by outsourcing jobs when US citizens are unemployed.
"Ban private gun ownership."
No. Hard block. I live in a rural area, and hunting and fishing is a big part of my community's self sufficiency.
Also, criminals will always find a way to arm themselves. Disarm the honest citizen, and you make him/her an easy prey to those scum.
In other words, this idea is idiocy, and a trampling on the 2nd amendment.
Criminals in foreign countries with strong gun laws don't often use guns. In fact there are very few criminals, compared to the US, in countries with strong guns laws.
Maybe the possession of a gun enables people to become criminals.
"Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda."
as if public schools are free from propaganda
I homeschool my kid, no religion involved, he and his 3 friends are 2+ grades ahead of their counterparts in public schools. He and his friends don't have to deal with gangs, propaganda, drugs, bullying or an unsafe environment. Public schools have failed due to the liberalization of the public school system.
I applaud you Kahnll; my only issue is the socialization available in public schools. Do you think, especially once they hit high school age, that a hybridized version, where you cover particular subjects you want them to keep on, then send them to public school for the 2nd half of the day and maybe some extra-curricular activities?
I'm guessing most of them if not all will want to go to public high school, Not sure how long they'll be in there or if they'll graduate early, but I think the boys want to play football and after the pee-wee years that's the only option to let them play. I'm not too sure about the "socialization" in local public schools anyway, we've been experiencing a growing gang problem, MS13 to be specific, over the past several years and the schools as well as law enforcement have their heads in the sand about it. Don't worry though, they get out in the world, far more than their public school counterparts. Their science book was covering ecosystems so they got to go to the swamp, the beach, and the mountains over 3 days. They took a boat ride in the swamp saw garors, snakes, birds, plants and turtles, caught crabs and shrimp, learned about the tides, saw bioluminescent plankton in the ocean and hiked to a mountain top. Each area is no more than 3 hrs away anyway. They've been to the state capital, numerous museums, (art, aviation, engineering, military, technology ect) They've also been to the planetarium at night to see the planets and comets, the aquarium, and about every other educational facility within 400 miles. (that's how I spend my days off) We don't rely on books and the failed public school curriculum that's geared to the lowest common denominator, and they're far better off because of it.
It does not really matter how you homeschooled your Children, you brought them into this world so you decide what best for them, not some souless Government.
That is EXACTLY the point. I didn't have children so the government could tell me how to raise them. That is one of those freedoms I will fight to the death for. There will always be extremists that raise their children to be weapons. On the otherhand there are many more homeschooloing their children within the 99% that are raising children that will be empathetic stewards of the land, hard working productive adults with goals and a different perspective than their peers. Further....shouldn't it be a main goal not to eradicate diversity but celebrate it?
Ban Public Schools. America's education standing in the world has gotten lower and lower while government continues to sink more and more money into it. Many of our schools teach how America is not a good place and U.S. History is ignored in many. Our schools have become nothing more than a dumbing down political propaganda breeding pit to brainwash our future into believing in and thinking that Communism and Socialism are good. Students are not taught about the wrongs these ideals created nor that these countries which embraced these have often failed. Home schooling is our last resort. It should be the parents who guide our children's beliefs and direction in life. It should only be the school's responsibility to teach the fundamentals. So sad this is not the case. So sad that with so much money tax payers are forced to spend, the schools continue to degrade in standard education. Just eliminate all public schooling. Including universities and colleges since we cannot do any better.
Other countries do well with public schooling why shouldn't the US? We came very far with public education over the past 100 years, maybe we need changes. Professionals are usually much better than untrained people so I would bet money that home schooling will mostly fail the kids.
It depends on those who have the ability to teach. Your typical government moocher who never graduated high school probably isn't a good choice to home school a child. But a professional who has furthered their education and cares about morals and ethics would likely be a good candidate for the job. If parents took the time to cater to their child's education, I believe our people would grow stronger as a nation.
Additionally, our public system was doing well until the past 20 or so years. No, I don't have the exact numbers in front of me and I will not look them up for you. But, we are losing ground. We, as a nation, are also losing respect for our own country and our heritage.
I'd bet that if the government opened a jeans factory making jeans for minimum wage the government moochers would be working overtime making jeans.
The problem that would face is since China devalued its currency US manufactures in China can make things at half-price in US dollars and can undercut manufactures in the US.
A VAT tax on imports or tariffs could stop that but the US Chamber of Commerce would not let that happen.
u r a bloody fool
"Ban private gun ownership."
I dare anyone to try...
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taking my land and my guns.... try it from the other side of my barbed wire fence that i will enforce with my 30-06 and 12ga :D
Demand # 1: Can I please have my sleeping bag back?
Who wrote this ridiculous thing? Who speaks for this movement? Are you just trying to discredit this movement immediately? Ban the private ownership of land? Are you effing kidding me? You make the rest of us a laughing stock by putting out college acid trip delusions as something serious. STOP IT NOW. We need intelligent, thoughtful, serious people coming forward to make real change possible. This is doing nothing but playing into the hands of Fox News. We have ONE CHANCE to organize effectively to end the corporate coup and take democratic power back for people. I seriously think this could have been written by a Fox News Koch brother operative just to make us look insane.
Well, if you're going to participate in a literally leaderless movement, it leaves people like me wondering what you all actually stand for or what your actual goals are. And when people post things like this, it's very easy to assume that this guy/girl speaks for all of you, since no one else seems to. And as for its legitimacy, don't blame Fox. I've seen and heard enough craziness from this movement to have full faith that it's from someone among the Occupiers.
They appear to be leaderless, but get funding from well-known wealthy lefties like Soros. The only reason I can think for this movement to exist is to take the heat off Obama. You know, focus on the crazies. The media is still in love-love with OWS and refuses to dwell on the deficiencies of the President. I may be wrong, but how can anyone in their right mind actually think the OWS group, especially after reading this new list of demands, are a valid voice of anyone?
When rich people get richer by making others poorer and in the process outsource 20 million jobs overseas and move 100,000+ factories out of 400,000 total to China it is time to change the rules.
First of all, anyone can post here, so taking any post as representative of everyone here is ridiculous. Does the post reprsent your views? No? But you're posting on this forum, too! Guilt by association...it's a logical fallacy.
Furthermore, the vast majority of folks I know involved in OWS would be more than happy to discuss Obama's failures with you. His failures are as much a part of our motivation to protest as anything else.
i couldn't have said it better. the movement absolutely needs leadership.
i imagine anyone who seriously believes any of the ridiculous "demands" can be called either insane, or profoundly stupid....
The intelligent ones couldn't come because they have jobs...
It's too late, already. There are no intelligent people left in your movement. The vast majority of Americans get it and you are on your way out. Get back to us when you and your buds are ready to reason.
This is the REALITY of YOUR occupy fascist movement. Liberal, socialist, fascist and blatantly anti-Constitutional! Reality sucks for you. YOUR group, YOUR groups site, YOUR groups demands. Deal with it.
you do realize that the adjectives socialist and fascist are polar opposites of each other on the political spectrum don't you? also its pretty much following the ideas of communism/ socialism which im decently sure was proven to not work about 22 years ago. so yea the occupy people dont appear to be doing to well on the whole reading history or logic thing. the movement should fall into irrelevancy before to long though not they arent already heres an idea though why dont they all try occupying a job
For every job that opens up, there are at least 4 unemployed people. More unemployed people than jobs means there simply aren't enough jobs to go around, so "go occupy a job" isn't that simple, now, is it? And that's not even considering that many of the jobs that are available don't pay enough to rent an apartment, buy food, and pay an electrical bill.
For the record, I am self-employed, not camping out, up to my eyeballs in work lately. I support the 0WS, because I know plenty of others who aren't so lucky. Hardworking, smart folks who studied, worked, did everything right, but lost their jobs when corporations cried "recession", moved jobs overseas, etc., then posted record profits, or lost their homes after paying their mortage faithfully for over a decade, to illegal foreclosures on legal technicalities.
Not. The Nazis - national socialists - were fascists. You can be both. And these people are. These are Lenin's "useful idiots." Fortunately, you are allowed to be an idiot in America, though personally, I don't think you should have the right to vote unless you own property and pay taxes. But that would eliminate a majority of the Dummercrat Party.
You are an idiot. The Nazis were NOT Socialists. They called themselves National Socialists, but that was a name, for a political party. They were fascists - not socialists. So, yet again, please know what the hell you are talking about before you make a post. Please!
You are clearly confused.
You contradict yourself. Fascism is when corporations control the government, and that is what we have, and precisely what conservatives (and RP) have been promoting for years by privatizing everything and doing everything in their power to deregulate big business. It is precisely against this corporate fascism that we protest.
Furthermore, we support the Constitution, and the freedoms of expression, assembly, and religion that it affords, among many others.
In fact, it is the teabaggers who cry for a return to the Constitution that I find largely haven't read it or completely lack any comprehension thereof.
My only criticism of what you said is to drop the labels. Using those labels only makes the OWS folk proud. You're not wrong, just don't use those labels.
If that is what you believe then why wasn't this post removed? If it discredits the OWS remove it.
I don't know who you are, but I do know that my personal experience at the Philadelphia version of this shindig reflects exactly what these demands list.
If other cities are different, perhaps you need to start separating your "movement" into different things.
Bad Boy! you'd better not say bad things about fox or koch -
or they will trickle down on you
This obviously is a JOKE......these are NOT the official request nor Demands....probably put out by FOX NEWS.
it probably was
Oh cool, naked communism. I was wrong about you guys, I thought you were just a bunch of whiny socialists. But you're really much more dangerous and foolish than that and need to be dealt with more harshly. If you think this crap is going to fly and change anything by winning hearts and minds of REAL AMERICANS, then you belong in an asylum with the rest of the crazies.
Hmmm...
Dogma, dogma, dogma, dogma, calling Communism taboo, more dogma. That about sums up your post!
Your views on campaign finance reform are spot on. Everything else is absolute nonsense.
Free dope for all...and nintendo too
LOL. This is actually pretty funny. So incredibly ineptly disguised. Entertaining!
"We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates."
Priceless.
Kinda of like turning in Jesus to be crucified and bailing Barabbas a known criminal out of jail. LOL
typical antsemitic remark. Look, pal, your side is no better than ours. We have our commies, you have your white supremacists. That's the nature of coalition. When you throw your Nazis out of your coalition you can come back and demand we reject our commies. Until then, how about leaving the namecalling out and getting to the issue, which is you think that anyone who doesn't support wealth is lazy and we think that anyone who supports the right for wealth to control the political system is either greedy or a dupe. Can we agree on that?
What exactly are you smoking?
Whatever it is, I want some.
On second thought, no I don't. Apparently this drug makes your brain turn completely off.
Many of these demands clearly show the lack of knowledge of basic life principals. It appears these demands were made by individuals who had little or no understanding of how economics or how money drives the economy. I would guess those making the demands are the product of the public school system!
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Here that Lebron. $90.00 an hour Maximum. You're fucked dude
I'll bet those so-called musicians like Ludicris would love to get that. Or how about our top actors.
The entire "movement" is an attempt by the left to take the blame off Obama and the left wing nut socialists politicians and place it on private industry. The FIRST DAY the media showed the protesters on Wall Street chanting "Kill the Jews" and the signs calling for socialist government. 99% of the protesters are whack jobs.
You obviously have not talked with any OWS people. Please do not make accusations about something you know nothing about.
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Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. (Thus causing small business to go out of business, and causing larger businesses to leave the country for good).
Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US. (Thus less jobs for us, and also more on welfare because of Number one above).
Ted Turner. Largest private owner of land in the US. Don't you love all these millionaire Marxists? The above rules are for YOU, not them. Just like the Soviet Union.
And your problem with that is? Is he keeping you from having land? How much land is too much land? And who gets to decide how much is enough?
My friends, I am from Soviet Russia. These ideas DO NOT work. They are a fun little dream that spirals into a nightmare very very quick. With these ideas you will really have a 1%, and it will be the Stalins and the Lenins and yes the Hitlers. Trust me the OWS ideas work only for those who want to stop thinking on their own and become part of a heard.
GOD BLESS YOU! You've been there, done that, didn't even get the T-shirt, because you couldn't afford it in the Soviet Union!!! You know 101% all this crap has never worked, doesn't work, will NEVER work. It is straight out socialist/communism with some fascism mixed in to force it. NOTHING compares to the U.S. Constitution and a free market economy and capitalism, governed by the freely elected government of the people, living under rule of law, set by the elected government, all making a Constitutional Republic. There is NOTHING on EARTH that works better than this. People have as many opportunities as they choose to take advantage of and make a life for themselves. And I say that as someone who doesn't have much right now. But my family has been here for over 280 years and I will NEVER support ANYTHING that undermines the Constitution! EVER! THANK you for your post!!!
and you of course, supported President Bush when he claimed that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, which started the problems that brought us to the streets. I bet you still think there are WMD's out there, and it's just that foreign born pretender in the White House who's keeping us from learning the truth, right?
By opposing our right to freely assemble and petition for redress of grievances, YOU are the one undermining the Constitution.
All we are asking is that the 1% be limited in its control of our national agenda. What you want is to be ruled by an elite who buys legislators and uses the law to promote its wealth.
If I'm a Commie, you're a Nazi.
The Occupy movement is not assembling peacefully though; there has been problems; so don't tell me that we're the ones taking away the freedom; riots don't count as peaceful assembly. We're working towards freedom, which means that your Nazi comparison does not fit at all.
The movement has its fringes and malcontents. Violence, however is not condoned or promoted. I said "If I'm a Commie, you're a Nazi. iow, don't call me Commie, I won't call you Nazi. I notice you didn't bother to discuss my comment about your support of Dubya's WMD fantasy. figures
Really, you're supporting people that are having communist ideals, and the truth is there is violence, it might not be condoned but it does still happen. and I made no comment about WMD at all; I only responded to your previous post.
exactly, you ignored my observation that you were likely to have bought the Bush lies, and therefore your judgment is suspect. further, your argument about violence is a "straw man" if you condone violence in pursuit of any cause of which you approve. I don't reject a person's aid just because he has what you would call "communist ideals", just as you would did not object to President Bush's accepting support of Saudi Arabia.
No sir, you would be wrong about his comment being a straw man. His comment is a hasty generalization. YOUR comment is a straw man. You read his point of view and AUTOMATICALLY assumed that a) he supported Bush b) he supported the Iraq war and c) he is an idiot. You did this as an attempt to make an easily debatable "straw man" to attack, assumably because you could not counter his points in a logical manner. You also used it to launch ad hominem attacks with an equally illogical premise. Please do not attempt to point out the follies in the logic committed by others until you grasp the fundamentals of logic yourself. Oh, and by the way, Anonymous, by the very nature of their organization, believes in the same manner of comradely you do. They accepted help based solely on a persons willingness to attack Sony. The repercussions of that were 7 million individuals with stolen personal information. I thank you "old"leftie for you flawed logic and the broken and polarized political system it helped create.
ok, let's start out with a simple question:
Let's get those answered; we can go on from there. I'm also sending this to you in private message with some postscripts that are not appropriate for the public debate.
Americanyoungadult (hereinafter to be referred to as "aya")
"I notice you didn't bother to discuss my comment about your support of Dubya's WMD fantasy. figures" That was a response to me and I had said nothing of the sort; I can see perfectly where the comments are; you assume I am an idiot and cannot; I know the private comment is not to me but i thought it was amusing it was getting that firery of a debate.
you continue to misunderstand.
1.I was pointing out that your reply did not confront my comment about the WMD, as your present replies do not. I am pointing out that you are avoiding that topic; whether it was first posed to you or not it is now and you continue to avoid it.
Fine, we'll just not continue talking about the idiot part, i do not admit that I am wrong but, that is a pointless debate. I have not done reading on the topic of Weapons of Mass Destuction so I do not want to form a misinformed opinion just to share it with you and have you prove me wrong.
fair enough. You know where to find me if and when you do sufficient reading to comment on the WMD issue. In the meantime, please understand that you exemplify one of my real problems with your faction; namely that you have insufficient experience with the track record of those who will be in power if you have your way, and that those to whom I am referring have interests which are inimical to those of myself and my family. If, once you have done sufficient study, you agree with them, you become by nature my enemy, and I am compelled to do all I can to keep you from having the power to bring your masters back to power. That, of course should and will at all times be attempted to be done with nonviolent means; but if those whom you support marshal up armed forces to repress us, I cannot guarantee that some of us will not respond in kind to any violence directed at us.
Can you honestly say that you would not do the same if you perceived that a force representing your domination and enslavement was being directed toward you with the instruction do do you harm?
Ok, did read my screen name? it's americanyoungadult; just fyi, I was eight in 2001. Eight year olds aren't usually very active in politcs. And yes, sometimes violence is necessary when it comes to something you believe in but, not when it comes to the right of assembly; the right to assembly means peaceful assembly, that is why they are being kicked out. And I would not accept someone aid politically because of communist ideals and read the above about anything else you have to say about Bush.
ok, wait a second. My recent comments were not to you, americanyoungadult, but to forthesakeofdebate who came to your defense. I appreciate your idealism and courtesy to the extent I can and still be in total disagreement with your politics. But I must point out again that our movement does neither promote or condone the occasional violence that has accompanied our peaceful assemblies. As for the rest of your comment, I am fully aware that you would not accept aid from any communist, but I don't see that you are throwing the White Supremacists out of your coalition, or the "birthers" or the racists. That's the problem with coalitions, we end up holding our noses and working with people we dislike for a common goal.
Secondly, I'm not sure what you mean about "read the above about anything else you have to say about Bush". Do you mean you were too young to form an opinion at the time? Fine, I accept that. So let me ask you now, since you are a proud conservative: Do you support in retrospect what Bush/Cheney did with the issue of WMD? Do you believe that there were WMD? And would you support a president who called Dick Cheney in as an advisor? Let's leave it there for now. I hope you feel that this time I have extended you the courtesy you deserve. If not I'll see whether I can do better next time.
Here's my research on WMD, garnered in about 30 seconds:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp
On 17 February 1998, President Clinton delivered a speech at the Pentagon. Excerpts from that speech include the following comments:
The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons.
Now, against that background, let us remember the past here. It is against that background that we have repeatedly and unambiguously made clear our preference for a diplomatic solution . . .
But to be a genuine solution, and not simply one that glosses over the remaining problem, a diplomatic solution must include or meet a clear, immutable, reasonable, simple standard.
Iraq must agree and soon, to free, full, unfettered access to these sites anywhere in the country. There can be no dilution or diminishment of the integrity of the inspection system that UNSCOM has put in place.
Now those terms are nothing more or less than the essence of what he agreed to at the end of the Gulf War. The Security Council, many times since, has reiterated this standard. If he accepts them, force will not be necessary. If he refuses or continues to evade his obligations through more tactics of delay and deception, he and he alone will be to blame for the consequences.
Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction.
And some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal. And I think every one of you who's really worked on this for any length of time believes that, too. . . .
If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program. We want to seriously reduce his capacity to threaten his neighbors.
I am quite confident, from the briefing I have just received from our military leaders, that we can achieve the objective and secure our vital strategic interests.
Now, which opinion about WMD are we supposed to form? The same one that Clinton did?
I know those comments were not to me; I was responding to the post "exactly, you ignored my observation that you were likely to have bought the Bush lies, and therefore your judgment is suspect. further, your argument about violence is a "straw man" if you condone violence in pursuit of any cause of which you approve. I don't reject a person's aid just because he has what you would call "communist ideals", just as you would did not object to President Bush's accepting support of Saudi Arabia." and in another one of my comments, I was responding to what you said to forthesakeofdebate precicly because he came to my defense so I came to his defense. I'm sure you do not promote the violence at this "peaceful assembly" but it does happen and that is why they were being told to get out, not because it's being condoned but, becuase it does happen. I'm not sure I see your problem with "birthers" unless you you it a different way than I was able to find. Could you please define this term for me the way you use it? Of course I do not support white Supremacists and I do not believe I know any personally in the conservative party and I do not know of any pushing their ideals even if I do know any. The communists seem to be pushing their ideals though. Anytime I hear a conservative talking about Bush, it's them saying that he's not a true conservative; and I don't have time right now to read up on Bush and WMD because I am a college student and have finals in a couple weeks and I am also fairly active on campus. Will you give me a couple months to get caught up on my reading?
I offer you at least as much respect as you offer me. Please go and study, and do well! you know where and how to find me when you've got the time to spare.
Just remember, half of the US is conservative. We will defend the US.
And if they EVER start trying to take our guns, we will quickly be MORE tan half the U.S., as we use the guns to lay them out DEAD on the ground. Come TRY and take MY legally registered guns that I paid for and I registered and I never use to break the law, and YOU forfeit your right to your next breath, I kid you not. When you try to violate the Constitution and Bill of Rights by force, you forfeit your rights to it's protection, because I WILL use deadly force to protect my Constitutionally guaranteed rights, EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK and TWICE on Sundays. Come try and take our guns in Texas. Better bring a whole SHIT load of body bags to put you in later. Try it! I DARE ya libbies!
Really? What makes this list of demands any different than the demands of the Bolsheviks during the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917 Russia? These tactics have been tried through and through over the past 100 years in Europe, North America, South America, Australia and Africa.
Many who fall for this failed ideology are ignorant of human nature at best. Do you honestly think that by taking away incentive and competition other people will truly be free. No, socialism and its pitfalls are nothing more than a ruse to redistribute power and wealth to a selected few and enslave the rest within that society.
Nobody born after 1980 can honestly remember Communist Russia. While the socialist machine would promote those unaware of socialism's bite that it was a "classless society", there were actually two classes which existed in the former Soviet Union: "Communist Party Members" who had, and the "Proletariat" who had not.
These same tactics have been tried during the early 20th century. Think people do not read, because the playbook is still the same. Look up Seattle in the early 1900's and Boston. What happened when all the soldiers returned home from World War I and the unemployment rate skyrocketed.
It's not about the rich screwing the little guy. This is simply about the law of supply and demand. When there is more demand, the cost of the limited supply go up. And when the supply is much higher than there is demand, the cost goes down.
Private businesses create jobs. Whether those businesses are private corporations, public corporations or small businesses, they hire people according to the demands of their products and services sold. When you show me a poor person who is hiring the masses and putting them to work, I will recant on the above statement, but nobody has ever proved it wrong otherwise.
So let's do some math. You wish to have the minimum wage upped to $18 per hour. Great. Let's say that a loaf a bread normally costs $0.15 per loaf to make based on today's economy based on a $10 per hour wage. Baking 1,000 loaves of bread then cost $150.00 in labor costs alone. One thousand loaves of bread may take four hours to complete from start to finish. If it takes five laborers in the production of 1,000 loaves of bread from start to finish, then at the proposed minimum wage increase to $18 per hour, Baking 1,000 loaves of bread then cost $360.00 in labor costs alone. One thousand loaves of bread may take four hours to complete from start to finish. If it takes five laborers in the production of 1,000 loaves of bread from start to finish those same 1,000 loaves of bread now costs the manufacturing baker $0.36 per loaf to make. The costs to produce each loaf more than doubled...
Now wait.... You may be saying but it's only $0.36 per loaf. Well keeping all things equal, let's say that all costs are equal and rise by the same 58%....
The ingredients to produce those 1,000 loaves of bread go from $0.12 per loaf to $0.19 per loaf ($0.36 Labor + $0.19 Ingredients = $0.55 per loaf)....
Marketing the brand in order to sell those loaves to retailers go from $0.03 per loaf to $0.05 per loaf ($0.36 Labor + $0.19 Ingredients + $0.05 = $0.60 per loaf)....
Shipping those 1,000 loaves to the various distribution warehouses or directly to the retailers go from $0.08 per loaf to $0.13 per loaf ($0.36 Labor + $0.19 Ingredients + $0.05 + $0.13 = $0.73 per loaf)....
The manufacturing baker would mark up the product by 200% to cover possible unexpected costs and profit, so the original total cost to produce 1,000 loaves of bread is ($0.15 + $0.12 + $0.03 + $0.08 = $0.38) plus the 200% mark up would be $0.76 per loaf. With the increase to the minimum wage to $18 per hour would mark that same loaf of bread up to $1.46 per loaf....
Now when it gets to the retailer, the original cost of $0.76 per loaf to the retailer rises to $1.46 per loaf... The retailer has to make its profit, so they pass the costs onto you the buyer while marking up the product by another 200% to cover its unexpected costs and make a profit....
So when the $10 per hour worker who makes $40 for four hours worth of work can take those four hours worth of wages and purchase 26 loaves of bread at the original mark up price of $1.52.... But the $18 per hour worker who makes $72 for four hours worth of work can take those four hours worth of wages and purchase 24 loaves of bread at the increased mark up price of $2.92....
Now the above example of one product produced for consumption shows that by increasing minimum wage actually leaves an individual with less... Of course this is if all things were equal, and we all know that the world does not work like that....
So bottom line, these socialist demands are a farce and do more harm to society than leaving people to compete and innovate so that true wealth and prosperity can be available for all who pursue it...
P.S.
I never included TAXES in the equations.... Think about it!
Cute, burying the specious factor so deep that it's likely to be missed. What manufacturer or retailer is going to mark up any product by 200%? Name me ONE bread bakery that does that today? And, by the structure of your own system, would that not immediately encourage a competitor to enter the market and produce a product asking only a 190% profit? and would that not in turn continue to drive the cost, and by extension, the price, of the product down? Come on, Charlie. We are not that much less intelligent than you that we can't spot that big a canard!
Oh, and another thing. You're presuming that all of the workers from beginning to end are now making the present minimum wage, so that an increase in the minimum wage for the lowest paid worker would require raises for all the workers along the line. This is a seriously flawed assumption, especially when you get to those areas like marketing costs, where present workers are likely to be making well above any minimum wage or in fact any increased minimum wage.
So the question then becomes are you aware of these flaws in your argument, and are simply trying to pull the wool over our eyes with fancy rhetoric (which would make you a scoundrel), or have you simply not factored these aspects into your argument because you are so obsessed ("my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts") with justifying your antipathy to participatory democracy that you cannot see the flaws that call its integrity into question (which would make you a fool)?
Aside, of course from that completely unreasonable presumption your argument contains one further major flaw ; that being that if a socialist society is reasonably productive, surpluses in one sector will be redistributed to subsidize deficits in other sectors, and until the system is functioning properly one cannot know if this will be sufficient to offset the inequalities you note; not to mention, your argument about the failure of past socialist societies does not take into account the amount that was required to be diverted from social infrastructure into military infrastructure because those with whom you would have allied were attacking them. The best example, of course is pre-1967 Israel, which was a completely successful socialist state until the Arab capitalists, fearful that its democratic socialism would tempt their populaces to revolt, carried out their war of aggression. Israel's victory in that brief war resulted in their being burdened with administration of a hostile territory that its prior ruler (Jordan) did not want back, and required Israel to seek assistance from a world financial community that insisted it modify its socioeconomic system in order to receive the aid it needed.
When you can point to ONE social democracy that failed because of solely internal flaws, as opposed to an inability to maintain fragile initial gains in the face of overwhelming well funded and organized external opposition, I will consider your argument more than specious. Until then, I, and others like me, will continue to claim that you are simply an apologist for the unethical, and your argument is ipse dixit, or at best post hoc ergo propter hoc.
I just wanted to tell you that Michael Savage read this on his show yesterday. At some point in the 9:45 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/user/mike1988123?feature=grec_index#p/a/u/0/6st1CQyJZvA
i was not impressed with your link. care to know why?
Not really.
AMEN!
I’m not from the US, but I have lived in it for many years. I no longer reside in it, but I sure have great affection for that nation. Love the mentality of the founders and all the Americans that believe in the United States constitution. But it saddens me to the core, to see how some people in and out of government are trying to bring down God, and all the good that that nation has stood for. I feel a sense of helplessness and heavyheartedness to see that the greatest nation in the world might someday no longer be.
AMERICA WILL NEVER BE DESTROYED FROM THE OUTSIDE. IF WE FALTER AND LOSE OUR FREEDOMS, IT WILL BE BECAUSE WE DESTROYED OURSELVES.
Abraham Lincoln
The call for a 6-hour workday, 6 weeks of vacation, and retirement at 55 tends to reinforce the popular image of OWS as a heap of lazy bums.
oh, I see. you wouldn't want that if it could be made affordable for you.
And you live in a magical land inside your head where those things are affordable.
Actually, I think this demand is a good idea but will not be accepted by mainstream America at this time. It will take time for our culture to reach this point.
you mean it will take time to indoctrinate mainstream America
Can any one of your OWS geniuses give me an example of a country or state where these rules have been successful? I'll admit the USA is far from perfect, and is filled with government corruption, but we're still the best damn country there is when compared to every other country on Earth. If you don't like it, GO TO ANOTHER COUNTRY THAT FOLLOWS THESE RULES INSTEAD OF TRYING TO CHANGE IT HERE!
I agree with you that many of these demands are impossible to acchieve. I am opposed to some but favor others, However, I think OWS needs to come up with a very limited slate of demands that can be acchieved within a couple of years and that will be acceptable to main stream Americans who are proud of our country. Here are my ideas, #1 Demand Congress pass a law barring all Congress people and their staff members from ever becoming lobbyists. (This suggestion came from the 60 MINUTES interview with convicted lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Another 60MINUTES interview yeilded this idea.
2 Enact HR1148. This act will make Congresspeople subject to the same insider trading laws that put Martha Stewart in prison.
3 Demand Congress enact a limit of two consecutive terms. I the the leader wants to serve again he/she can only after sitting out for a term.
4. Demand congress make a rule that every piece of any legislation be submitted to a separate recorded vote of the entire body before being incorporated in the total bill. This should eliminate earmarks
I don't think anyone from OWS is behind this list, so I doubt you'll get a positive response. The vast majority of us are likely to agree that these demands are unrealistic. The OWS movement is above all simply about removing corporate money and influence from our government.
Russia, China, North Korea are a few examples of the wonderful life this list provides for the people. Are three examples enough for you?
North Korea is looking for young people to come to their country and join the throngs of happy residents. They are willing to provide travel expenses and lodging for all who want to come. Can we book you a flight?
Wonderful life in Russia, China, and NK? Do you know how incredibly misinformed that statement is? People are dying of starvation by the tens of thousands each year because of a country-wide famine in North Korea. You work your entire life and can't afford to even buy a TV. Russia is poisoned with post-soviet corruption and mass alcoholism. The population is shrinking since people are getting the fuck outta there by any means possible. In China, you assholes would be shot on the spot the first 5 minutes of your whining in the center of Shanghai. There are 1.4 billion people engaged in cut-throat lifestyles, and the vast majority would jump on the first boat or plane that would take them to the US...
Here we still have the best opportunity to make something of ourselves. We are given free speech (something you're very much taking for granted, not using wisely). We are given EXTENSIVE financial resources to succeed, from very generous unemployment benefits to earning some of the highest wages in the world with less education than others.
For everyone one of you ignorant fools, there is literally a line of 1000's of people abroad who would KILL to have a shot at your life. And you have the audacity to not only complain, but ask for communism? Wake up! Our life is actually pretty good.
Damn dirty hippies.
My life IS pretty good! I struggled for a long time and worked very hard to make it so, but I've also been kind of lucky, really. Not everyone has such luck. I know other people who also studied and worked hard, then lost everything when the corporation they worked for downsized or outsourced in the name of "recession", meanwhile posting record profits, or the bank stole their house on a legal technicality or, worse, completely illegal foreclosure, or poisoned the water they drank and they became ill, and insurance companies refused to cover their medical care, etc., etc., etc.... People who worked hard all their lives. This is why I protest. Those are my people.
So if those are "your" people, tell me, what are YOU doing to help them? On a statistical analysis of your peer group, YOU are the 1%. How much of your fortune based on "luck" are you giving away?
You disappoint me in your lack of ability to recognize critical analysis.
It was sarcasm, genius.
[Removed]
While you're at it, may I have a pony?
If these are the list of demands then I'm out. What deplorable nonsense.
I don't even know where to begin. This person seems to want a world of extreme poverty and debt with murderers running in the streets.
In a socialist society, there will not be debt, and there will be no reason to commit crime.
Except for all the black market lenders, gamblers, and people who just enjoy crime. USSR was socialist, and they still had organized crime, and people who just want more.
Yeah, like we don't already have that. The OP is either a saboteur, or an idiot. Either way, bullshit called.
You obviously haven't been to the "protest" in Philadelphia. If you had been you would see that this list perfectly reflects their demands. Maybe it's different where you are?
This just circulated my office today as the joke of the day. Thank you for the laugh guys! I work three jobs, 70 hours a week and still barely make ends meet but I am damn proud of ever cent I make. Why? Because it is not an undeserved handout. By every criteria I am the perfect example of the 99% and I STILL think you guys are nuts! Guess what? I just saw a "Now Hiring" sign at the local Home Depot, Oh! Look there are a couple more. Minimum wage is still a wage, and one that you actually did something for in return...(What a concept huh?)
Get off your ass and get a job.
Hoorah, M3.
This is part of the problem: You have to work 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet. Some people have 2 or 3 jobs, but for every new job that opens up, there are at least 4 unemployed people who need it. I've heard even McD's is now getting 300 applications for every position that opens up. Now, I'm working (self employed, and I work very hard), and I'm not asking for handouts. But I support the OWS. The one common focus of the protests it to get corporate money out of our government, and I support that. Anybody can post on these forums. I wouldn't take one naive post as representative of the entire movement. I know a lot of people involved, and none of them would support this whole list (while they might support a few points on it, admittedly).
You should hire more people. Keep on hiring people, until you receive no more than those that you hire. Share your wealth. Be part of the solution and not a whiner. :P
I have no "wealth" to speak of (live in small apartment, do not own, car is 15 years old, etc., but, indeed, all my bills are paid. I do not live beyond my means), and I haven't enough work to hire more people than I already do. Now, as far as people I do hire, the profit I make on their work is really negligible. Basically, I recover the value of the time I spend managing their projects, and the money invested in marketing that allows me to get such work, and that's about it. Essentially, I share work with other professionals who I regard as my equals, as opposed to exploiting the labors of others for my own profit and treating them like beasts of burden, as do most large corporate monopoly fascists. This is because they do the same work I do; they have the same education and training; they are worthy of respect and a fair wage. I treat them fairly. I could not sleep at night were I to do otherwise, unlike most corporate monopolists.
You guys are idiots! Institute a minimum wage of $18 an hour??? That is the surest way to ensure that the unemployment rate increases enormously. I propose we change the name of this website to IFalledEconomics101.org.
Part of the reason an increased wage is seen to translate to fewer jobs is due simply to corporate greed. The corporate CEOs and bankster investors demand an undue return on their investment. They could, indeed, pay people a living wage, and still profit, and without raising prices, but they are not willing to accept, say 10 or 15% ROI and a wage that is, maybe, 10 times a worker wage, but rather insist on wages 300 times a laborer's wage, and 20%, 50%, or even greater ROI. For instance, say BurgerVille pays workers min. wage, which is, what, near $8/hr, I think, and the CEO makes $5billion/year.
Mr. CEO has more money than anyone could ever possibly need, while his workers need a second job just to pay a mortgage. But this company could, indeed, raise labor wages, practically, say to $15.00, and he could still likely make $3billion/year, without even raising the price of a meal.
His workers would in all likelihood become more productive, because they could live comfortably working that one job. They would be happier (happy workers are productive workers!), and more well-rested, etc.. There would be more jobs to go around, because nobody would need 2 jobs. Sure, $2billion may seem like a large sacrifice, but, WTF? Are you going to tell me he can't live on $3billion, so his workers can live in dignity? Fµçk that.
Repeal Bush Tax Cuts
The occupy movement is nothing but a bunch of anti-Constitutional lazy thugs that can't cut it in life themselves. Boo hoo. I don't have much money, I don't have a house, but I don't whine about it and I don't want to rape the rich for a hand out. That is NOT what America is about. When you want to shred the Constitution, then you are solidly ANTI-American and anti-freedom and anti-liberty. The occupy movement and the U.S. Cotitution and Bill of RIghts and rule of law by majority rule electing government under a Constitutional Republic CANNOT co-exist. So the solution is, all you occupy people, go occupy North Korea or Somalia or Iran or Yemen or Chechnya or any of the other mob mentality non-democratic nations, where the person with the biggest club rules. Go there and leave America alone. The Constitution WILL NOT be destroyed to make up for your LAZINESS! Spend within your means and it won't be a problem!!! Lazy liberal socialist bastards. You don't even begin to speak for the 99%! I AM one of the 99% and you sure don't speak for me! My family didn't fight and die for this country for 235 year so you bunch of thugs can take it over by threats and violence and shred the Constitution. Get out, and go to Hell!
Unbelieveable. The incredible lack of understanding of the fundamentals of economics displayed in this list is mind-boggling. Virtually every statistical study shows that minimum wage hikes hurt the poor more than they help them, by eliminating jobs. Statistics show that minimum wage hikes also keep people on welfare longer, not less, and that such hikes also encourage students to drop out of high school.
Then they couple this with a 6 hour work day, reducing worker productivity. So less productivity but higher pay! So much nonsense.
Unionize all workers? What on earth for? There's example after example, even among public and education workers, that when union membership as a requirement of employment is removed, the workers exit the unions en masse. Obviously, most of these workers don't feel the unions represent them. . .and rightly so.
Lower the retirement age, but increase benefits? WHAT? So we'll be increasing the percentage of our population whose monthly checks come right out of the pockets of the rest of us, while we simultaneously eliminate jobs by raising the minimum wage, and simultaneously reduce the productivity of those few remaining workers by imposing a 6 hour workday.
I can only guess that it was the folks who used those large numbers of hypodermic needles found in Zuccotti park when it was cleared out who are responsible for this ridiculous list.
They claim to represent the 99%, but I doubt they could find 1% who would agree to this list.
what a crock. "virtually every statistical study"? where did you get that crap? It's a lie, and you know it.
that's the problem with your side. You never let the truth interfere with your agenda. Like the "large number of hypodermic needles".
You should be ashamed of yourself. And if you want to meet me face to face, come down to DC. And before you tell me that you'd be afraid to meet me, I'll offer to meet you at any police station. Frankly I'm more afraid of you than you could ever be of me.
So what is the truth that you speak? Do you honestly believe that this manifesto of demands is honestly what needs to be done? I am sympathetic to peoples frustrations with the system but these demands are crazy and cannot be taken seriously..The truth is since we have been off the gold standard with Nixon our government has been kicking the can down the road and now it is time to pay the piper..The game is over and people do not want to believe it...Thats reality unfortunately, and the investment bankers while guilty for robbing the machine before the preverbal hit the fan, the government facilitated ALL of it...Both sides are guilty and we should be protesting THEM for not being stewards of our country but rather raping our people and trying to solidify their legacies..Its truly sad...
I wholeheartedly agree. Government should be held accountable. I have been promoting a mass relocation of OWS supporters to Anacostia Park here in DC, and mass marches daily to the halls of Congress.
I was in DC, activly fighting for real values, helping conservatives to win some elections while you were sitting on your butt, protesting, when you're not even sure what you're protesting for.
typical ignorant right wing comment. You have no idea who I am or how old I am or what I'm doing in DC. Your assumptions here are as wrongheaded as your values are "real values", just as your comment that "virtually every statistical study" etc. is an out and out lie. I notice that you aren't even going to try to defend that. And how does being in DC help conservatives win some elections? Oh, I get it, you were working for the GOP! Thanks for the info.
I said nothing about any statistical study. So what does that comment have to do with me at all? And you avoided the point of what you were doing in DC.
ok, you live in DC; sorry for my assuming but could have pointed that out. Yes, I was working for the GOP but, not just anyone; the people we were helping, yes, they did have to be republican but, I don't believe that we had any direct contact with the GOP. Our canidates were hand picked as conservatives, that supported our values. We weren't just like, oh, republicans, let's support them! And I am doing something to create the change I want to see in this country.
what a joke ! but it does help to put these rules up so that we all can see what a joke the occupy movement is...
If this is the true list of demands, then forget it! Most Americans are not in favor of at least half of this list.
You have lost my support if this list is true. I signed up for a Republic -- not this.
wall street needs more transparency and more punitive damages for those who lie, steal, and cheat. everything else on this list is hippie bullshit. go away you lazy retards and let us try to get something accomplished.
For a 6 week vacation, Where would the money come from? MAking social security more is really dumb becasue if those people want to work that is their choice not yours, besidesif the person is able to work they should....they should contribute to society and help make the bedt go down. The ability to own land makes America America. If there was no private land then I could take what I wanted from any and anywhere and people would do that. By the way, this is incredibly communist and what we fought against Russia. Home school: I am tired of people without children telling me how to raise my children. When I was a child and my parents divorced they each had to go to parental councelling. They did so and were told by a woman who was 20 years old and had never had any children before of her own and none of what she said was half way intelligent 16 year olds are not mentally capable of making the types of decisions that adults can make. This would just allow them to work earlier which would only slightly balance out you retirement age decreased to 55. People on death row are there for a reason.
Okay, at first I went along with you guys opposing corrupt business practice, banks hording and not loaning money, and the off shoring of American jobs by American corporations; but, this list is of demands is outrageous! You are pretty much stating that we should live in a Communist state a I want my freedom along with a decent paying job. I want my guns and other things that I own. I want my insurance and to pay my debts - I created them and don't expect anyone else to bail me out. I do thing since corporate taxes are the lowest they have been in nearly 50 years they should be raised to create revenue, but not to 90% ... maybe 9.5%. At the rate you suggest you are in essence stating the wealthy should support everyone else and that's not (my) the American way. I believe everyone should share the burden of our current recession. Simply close corporate loopholes that allow off shoring, tax and tariff their imports at a rate that might incline them to return to America, and then create jobs that will inevitably provide insurance for employees and a chance for them to prosper ... that's the American way. I don't want the hand-outs you suggest and your demands are way over the top. If this is actually what you wish from my nation and country then I can and will no longer offer my support in your efforts.
There would be no technological development as the financial investment necessary for medical care, for example, which can only be financed by huge pharmaceutical companies wouldn't take place as they don't have the profits to do.
You can't cap maximum salaries to $90 hr and then tax the richest 90% because then no one would have any money.
You can't lower the retirement age, stop income tax, create a unified medical system and somehow expect the government to pay for it. Where do they get their money from?... Taxation.
Abolishing life imprisonment is a ridiculous idea, you make capitalists sound like criminals and then basically offer a pardon to serial murders and psychopaths who are in prison for life for a reason.
Completely open immigration laws would cripple any economy, if obviously that hasn't already been accomplished by unemployment sky-rocking as businesses will refuse a minimum wage that high and have productivity at such a low rate because they are barely at work.
For the rest of your ideologies, they are just a collection of obscure, racist rantings from fanatics who don't understand how an country, a free country, functions. You are basically asking for a dictatorship, totalitarian regime in which freedom is shunned and the government control everything. If you want that, move to North Korea. You'll find it much to your liking!
Here is the proof: Communism is a mental disorder. Don't these people have jobs? I could not just take off from you job. Wait, they probably work for the government. How much money is the NYC cop union going to make off the overtime? Talk about redistribution of wealth.
I pray to God that someone like you never ever ever gets in any form of power. What you propose decimates everything this country was founded on. Hard work, perseverance and the reward for those is what makes this country great. You'd like to take all that away and ensure that the US fits in your tiny, limited and naive worldview.
This goes against much of what this country was founded for. Perhaps the government could finance plane tickets to a socialist nation and see how those countries really work. Socialism works great on paper, but history has shown that when it does work it comes at the cost of the people.
You missed a couple: "Destroy the US economy." and "Abolish personal responsibility and liberty."
I sincerely hope this is a joking attempt to discredit OWS. I would like to believe that there is a little more intellect and righteous indignation at crony capitalism behind OWS than this post would suggest. Though as a homeschooled individual, I suppose that I am a religious fanatic and too deranged to intelligently comment...
Well you are known by the company you keep. These are your peeps. Yes the world is watching and this is what they are seeing.
"Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda." This is total madness based on preconcieved stereotypes, A significant portion of homeschoolers do so not for religious reasons, but because the quality of education in many public schools is sorely lacking. And what about the possibility of indoctrination via the public education system? Be careful what you ask for- indoctrination can come from the rise of power from either side of the political spectrum and may not be what was expected at all.
Ok so whoever came up with this BS has NEVER started a business $18 an hour minimum wage. How are you going to pay for your $25 "Happy Meal" for your kids as well as your $10 bottle of water. Lower the retirement age to 55, Ban the ownership of land and private gun ownership. What mental disorder do you have? Are you freggin serious. Open our borders, abolish the death penalty, 6 hour workdays. THIS IS AMERICA, TRY LEARNING SOME HISTORY. THIS GREAT COUNTRY WAS BUILT WITH BLOOD, SWEAT AND TEARS. Yes mistakes were made, but unions and regulations have crushed the American Dream...not the so called greed you are complaining about
If people elect their supervisors, supervisors will either get fired for being unproductive or "unelected" for being unpopular. As to banning gun ownership, read John Lott's MORE GUNS, LESS CRIME. Increasing taxes will motivate rich and productive people to leave the country
minimum wages guarantee unemployment for everyone whose skills are not worth the money. Reducing the age of majority means that people with no life experience will get to vote. Making home schooling illegal deprives parents of an inalienable right and forces all children to be indoctrinated by the state.
This is p[robably the most hysterical thing I've read!
That's good morons. Unionize workers ALL workers.
Don't you dopes realize that the reason we are in this mess is because the greedy union workers just keep taking and taking and give nothing? They want private sector taxpayers to pay for their pensions and health benefits while private sector pays for their as well. They don't care where the money comes from, they just want more and more. They're selfish greedy leeches. That's why companies go overseas. Unions don't even care that their greed causes industries to die in this country? All they care about is how much money thy can get.
Bring back things like family owned stores.....you don't need a union when you have 30 employees. Unions just take money out of our pockets and then use it to lobby away our rights and freedoms at the federal level. More big business, more big government, more intrusion into our lives and our right to make our own decisions is not what we need, and that is all unions are getting us at this point.
Further if Big Business were held to the moral standard of 'doing the right thing' maybe we wouldn't need Unions.
you're absolutely right. If business were to hold to a moral standard we would not need unions.
If people were held to a moral standard, we would not need government.
And if my mother had had balls, she would have been my father.
The possibility of all three are about as remote......
I agree that family owned business are needed. They were all pushed out by corporate monopolies. Corporate fascist monopolists have too much power.
Unions, however, mitigate that power, by advocating for the rights and safety of workers, and they do so precisely because Big Business doesn't care about the moral standard of "doing the right thing", so, there, you are sorely misled. Big Business cares about one thing, only, and that is making more money, at any expense, whether it be destroying the environment or exploiting child labor in China. If it fattens their wallet, they don't concern themselves with the consequence on others. We need unions.
I was in a union. I am a republican and they took my dues and gave a portion to Dem politics. To help support them. I had no say so in the matter. Come elections my mailbox was filled with Dem voting guides. Unions skim off the top and give to big government. To the tune of millions. I thought OWS wanted Corporations to stop giving to government? Why is it OK for unions to do it. The good news is that they are going away. A bad economy is really bad for unions.
But a 47 inch Vizio TV at Costco is only $1000! If it were a tiny little shop, the TV would be $2000!!!
not necessarily. One could set up an IGA style purchasing cooperative with dozens of other smaller stores, and buy a bulk lot at a cheap price that one could then divide up among the member stores.
I just can't see that happening. Look, all it is, is the American with the better idea. When I was little you went to a Mom and Pop food store. Then the store became a bigger market. Next came the supermarket. Now it is Target and Costco and Wal Mart. And to be honest, it is really easy for me to run in and get a chicken for dinner with milk, bread and a TV. Why would smaller stores even go to all the trouble? Folks would still go into a Home Depot to get nails and a BBQ. Nice idea but will not work. Man, Costco is like a religion.
so was Nazism. also very efficient. Next observation?
Big Box stores are the American way. The little stores just cost too much..Went to a little vacuun shop to get a replacement belt and their vacuums cost a ton! Costco had the same ones for way cheaper. A family needs to get the best deal possible. What is cool about America is people are always finding a better way to buy and do stuff. Cell phone, Atm, Ipod, Computer, Ipad, DVD. Can't stop it. Strip malls went to the big malls. Little electronic stores went to Best Buy. It's fun! Can't stop it. So, were you a baseball player?
I am an ebay seller, an individual. I am the typical 'tiny little shop'. While I am not a Top Seller, I compete with the big dogs fairly well. I don't get the 20% discount from ebay. But, I use my brain and take my time to improve my sales to at least match the number of sales those Top Sellers make. And yes, I sell at and below their prices. If you put your mind to it, you can make it on your own without the government's hand outs. And I am increasing my monthly profits on a consistent basis. So take your marches elsewhere, your not wanted in America. The land of the free, based on Christian religion and drawn up in our Constitution. Read it sometime, Read 'Common Sense'. Read something besides the communist crap schools spew.
Thomas Paine was entreating people to take the power back from the priveleged few, and our founding fathers would not have fought for our right to worship freely and preventing nationally sponsored religion if they believed everyone should be Christian.
really. Please quote something from Common Sense that supports your position. I'd love to know where you got the idea that Paine was a Christian.
My bet is that you've never read Paine, nor Keyes, nor any of the lesser known but influential founders. I bet you never even read Federalist Papers or any of Franklin's work.
Prove me wrong.
I need prove nothing to anyone, as it is obvious the writer of these demands has not proven any common sense for economy or business in general. Oh, fyi, you are fabricating another lie by assuming that I called anyone Christian. If you have the need for proving or proof of something, prove how wage minimums and maximums are good for this nation. Do that one, leftie.
I shall be happy to do so when you prove to me that you have read "Common Sense". Until then, your comments are unworthy of consideration. After you do, they will still be unworthy of consideration, since anyone who has read "Common Sense" knows that it proposes EXACTLY the kind of action that we are taking. But since you've never read it, you wouldn't know that, would you?
I run a business, and I also compete with large corporations, and, while it's a struggle sometimes, I get by. But I still support OWS, because I know plenty of hardworking Americans, who worked, studied, did everything right, and lost their jobs to corporations who cried "recession", moved jobs oversees, cut or froze salaries, and posted record profits, or who lost their homes to illegal foreclosures on legal technicalities after paying their mortgage for 15 years, etc. We need change, and precisely the kind of change OWS is calling for: get corporate money out of our government. Power to the People!
Nobody said life was fair. Business is a competition. But if the gov't increases the cost to operate a business which manufactures a product, then in order for that business to continue being successful, the business must seek other options. If the list of demands posted above were to enable the proposed new minimum wage, then manufacturing businesses would likely either close operations (eliminating American jobs) or seek cheaper labor overseas if they could (eliminating American jobs).
Football is a competition too, but there are still rules for fair play.
According to this protest, both teams should win. There should be no losers. All players should be paid exactly the same regardless of their particular talents or skills. There is no purpose to strive to be the best since the pay will never change. What's the point in even getting a college education if everyone is paid equally? This is shear communism. Pure and simple.
Nobody is saying everyone should be paid the same, regardless of their productivity or responsibility, etc. Where you ever got this ridiculous notion is beyond me (unless it was Faux News. They come up with all kinds of ridiculous bullship). But when a CEO makes 300 times what the worker who produces the product does, when said CEO has wealth beyond measure, beyond what anybody could possibly need, while the worker struggles to keep a roof over his family's head, this is unjust.
Do I believe a dishwasher and a doctor should receive the same wage? No. The doctor has invested far more in studies and has far more responsibility. But I do believe the dishwasher should be able to feed and house his family with his earnings. Nobody who works for a living should struggle to provide food, shelter, health care, and education for themselves and their family. They should be able to do so with one full-time job. Nobody should be working 2 or 3 jobs, and still struggling, while somebody else has no work at all, either. This is preposterous.
Simply put, the worker should, indeed, reap a greater percentage of the profit from his own labors, from the product or service he produces. If a CEO made, say 10 times the laborer's wage, and the laborer's wage was sufficient to provide for his family, housing, food, health care, education, etc., I would find no reason to protest. But such is not the case. The CEO sometimes makes more in one day than a laborer makes all year, the laborers, producers, the people who truly work for a living, are losing their homes and starving.
Also, to answer your other question, of course, no, I do not believe every CEO is trying to destroy the environment. Just far too many of them are concerned more with short-term profit than sustainability and a healthy environment, and manipulate legislation to make production cheap at the expense of both, labor and the environment.
Sure, but we need to redefine a successful business. A successful business should be one where all involved win, meaning the workers, the customers, the neighbors to that business, everybody; not one where the neighbors are poisoned, the workers can't afford to feed their families, and customers are locked in by monopolies or abusive licenses and contracts, but the CEO walks away with $$Billions in bonuses for fµçking everyone else without kiss.
If you honestly believe that the CEO of every corporation is out to ruin the area where they operate, then you running your own business must also do the same thing. Unless you believe that not everyone can be put into your model of businesses. Do you believe that the corporation should pay their workers the same as those who oversee the workers? That the owner or CEO should receive no more money than their workers? That somehow the one in charge should be reduced to the worker's wage even though there is much more responsibility and education backing the CEO or owner?
I don't want to be unionized. I dare any one of these commie fckers to dare try and take my guns. They should all come try to take the guns of the constitutional loving Americans. We can end this occupy bull sht in the flash of a muzzle.
Unions have nothing to do with gun control. I support unions, and OWS. While the OWS movement is NOT about socialism (but simply removing corporate money and influence from our governement), I do agree with many socialist principles (it's not about stealing from you to give to someone else, contrary to what Faux News tells you. I work for a living, too. Try reading a book, and not one written by Glenn Beck).
But, I also fully agree with and wholeheartedly support the right to bear arms.
Seig Heil, Mein Fuhrer! That's the kind of talk that got our great leader control of the Fatherland!
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no one would work with a top marginal tax rate of 90%
unless there is a president named IKE
and companies back then got around that 90 percent very easily with tax shelters and such.
I won't waste my time re-typeing all the socialism and anti constutional garbage spewed in 24 lines of change demands . I was under the asumption that OWS wanted the way wall street did business and wanted it to change . well I must be wrong . I say if one line were true , We just shut this garbge down now ! The towns and citys have been held hostage by the first amendment to allow these thugs to take over and destry the town folks take pride in and pay tax's in . In there wake is depleted city fund and a big mess to clean up . Do the protesters care ? I don't think so . My anger knows no bounds when I see how people are being thaken advantage of by these self centerd , uncareing , delusinial people .
LOL!! This is the most idiotic list of rubbish I have ever had the displeasure of wasting 30 seconds of my life to read. Crawl back into the park and continue begging for handouts and shitting among one another. No wonder this movement has done nothing with any measure of success. OWS really stands behind this list... REALLY?
Idiots!
"Repeal racist and xenophobic English laws" sounds like Obama's policy on "racial profiling" that targets whites and the Tea Party Movement. It all smells like Obama's community organizing civilian army doing his bid of enforcing radical social policies.
Want my guns? My land? Come and take them. Good luck.
Hello Morons ! I HONESTLEY believed you efn idiots were starting real cause for America! What you are asking for if you idiots ever took an economics class is unconcievable! Instead of saying your a racist why dont you realize some people are naturally stupid. We dont need to give the greatest country in the world over to third world values while you asswhipes sit in starbucks contemplating world peace ! Wake up and as Bill Gates said "TRY DELOUSING YOUR OWN CLOSET BEFORE YOU CURE THE WORLDS PROBLEMS",. Wow if this is your movement its a wonder the worlds laughing at us! PS I love the fact the children of this country are standing up for their rights but as the son of a decorated WWII Veteran and the fact that I know who my father is you guys better start wacthing the history channel !!!!!! Because it always repeats itself.
Who ever wrote these demands is clearly not educated or of sound mind and obviously extremely lazy. If you do not believe in america then get out (go to china and see how you like it there you communist) or soon we the people the real americans will be Kicking you all out and sending you where we choose!! Calling all real Americans Lets join forces my fellow patriots and take Back what are fathers their fathers and so on have fought and died for. We can all start marching showing are 1st and 2nd amendments we will call it "End Communist. Most of the protesters are not smart enough to realize their being used as pawns by a much higher intelligence to create something that could inevitably start ww3. F-you Maurice Strong cause you Maurice Strong are a very bad man possibly even the antichrist!!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh my god! You're perfect for Cuba or China or North Korea, all of which have more freedom and much, much more common sense than this list. Please, please get educated.
So, you want to release dangerous criminals from jail AND ban private ownership of guns, so people can't protect themselves and families from the dangerous criminals that you just released and WILL have illegal guns to kill us? Wow! This is another reason for me to stop paying attention to the OWS socialists that live in a fantasy world. 99% of the people involved in the OWS encampments are criminals that can't pass a criminal background and/or drug screening. That is why they are unemployable. Don't blame us for your stupid mistakes and addictions.
Homeschooling, in my family's experience, produces self-confident young people, able to think for themselves, who have not been brainwashed into conformity, consumerism and mindless competition with their peers. I woud have thought you'd be in favour of that, and am hugely disappointed that you're not.
Get the hell out of the country and find a planet that you can live on. These demands are outrageously ridiculous. When you think about the people who fought to make this country what it is and freedoms you have enjoyed how could you make these demands . I feel ashamed to share the same soil. In my eyes and eyes of many, you have never sacrificed to get what you have today.
I just can't figure out why people who are so concerned with the safety and freedom insist on bullshit like "ban private gun ownership". Who the fuk do these people think they are? How dare you demand to that my basic rights be stripped away from me? It's a-holes like this that cause so much pain and suffering for private citizens. Idiots who refuse to acknowledge empirical evidence that proves that violent crimes REDUCE with private gun ownership. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
Who in the hell wrote this? I am on OWS everyday and I speak about it on my Blog and I marched today and I didn't know anything about this. this is really dumb demands and makes me look like an ass for following. I am Homeless and I understand the frustrations of the people but the ones who made the demands have to be dope feinds because end the war on drugs? Yeah let more crack heads rob people or sale their kids for drug dealers to do what they wish to a 10 year old girl. Or sale their infants for drugs. No land ownership? Man people work for the land and Someone has to own it. If not then when people like the drug addicts you just want to be able to run all over the place come on your land and rob your house and or rape your wife daughter or you then you will wish you had a gun in the house. Equality among the class should be in taxes and schooling and stuff. Make home schooling illegal would actually be infringing on someone elses rights and freedoms. Who updates this site and who made those demands and who said that shnit man? I am not about all that www.askamillion.com If you got anything to say you can say it to me on my website
1-.End ALL Corporate Lobbyists and ALL Campaign contributions. This should include ending the Corporation person-hood status and Corporate Welfare in the US. If Corporations claim they are so great at making money then let them rescue themselves without the tax payer’s revenues.
2-. Reinstate Glass Steagall Act. Regulate all financial institutions to the maximum extend covering all their operations. This regulation should be even more than ever before since there is a proliferation of risky commodities that must be outlawed since the gambled always falls on tax payer’s hands. Private gains at Public Loss no more!!! Promote Co-ops and eliminate all Corporations!!!
3-.Return to Taxation levels of Eisenhower at 91%. Make all marginal tax to the levels of Eisenhower at 91% this way the social contract can be funded. If there were wealthy individuals back then then there can still be wealthy individuals now at 91% but not at the expense of the working class as it is today!
4-.Repatriate to government and participatory democratic control all Institutions that have been Privatized in the past 50 years including the US Military, Prisons, and Healthcare. Not one single institution linked to the PUBLIC safety Net of a citizen CAN be privatized! No school, university, food enterprise, housing, military or any other banking institution can be privatized because the government institutions have never needed a bail out but PRIVATIZATION ALWAYS NEEDS A BAIL OUT SOON OR LATER INCLUDING ALRGE AMOUNTS OF SUBSIDIES IN THE FORM OF TAX BREAKS AND CORPORATE WELFARE. NO to privatization of any kind!!!
Private entities cost 34-64% MORE than Public ran institutions, please see:
http://pogoarchives.org/m/co/igf/bad-business-report-only-2011.pdf Also: http://youtu.be/lDMenqKCXdw
5-. Demand Living Wages and Salaries! We have a minimum wage/salary but not a maximum salary, why not? If there is funding to pay trillions ion bonuses to Corporate Oligarchs then there has to be funding for the poor and middle class producing all the wealth! Demand a PUBLIC SAFETY NET like Denmark and Norway:
http://youtu.be/IBzDSq0KDLs
Also:
http://youtu.be/k4L6-0WRfSA
6-.Rescue all citizens who have Toxic Mortgages or whose homes have been repossessed or otherwise will be future citizens in danger of repossession. Let all those who sold toxic assets or who played casino with the Market sink! Let them play casino with their own funding not retirements or Tax payers' revenues!
7-. Restore the Fairness Doctrine. This should eliminate the Jerry Springer’s and the Fox News of the country on TV and Radio. Regulate all threat to the Environment including air waves and ecological threats. Neither the FDA, or the NIH nor the Supreme Court are allowed to have any dealings with Corporations because of conflict of interest. This is not Free Speech! Fire all those judges or administrators who have dealt or are willing to deal with Corporations, they must choose to either represent the people or the Corporate Oligarchs but they cannot represent both! Huge conflict of interest here!
8-. Restore Habeas Corpus. Eliminate the Patriot Act! Restore ALL Civil Rights! People should have the right to assemble for a redress of grievances at any time without any bigoted permits or restrictions preventing them to do so.
9-. All punishment must fit the crime so judges can be restored their jurisprudence of law by reversing the Sentencing Guidelines and Mandatory Minimums. Make Wall Street crimes punishable harshly than any other crime. Marijuana possession and recreational use should be fully decriminalized.
10-. Forgive ALL student Loans and provide a living wage salary to all students at the University level. Open social welfare jobs that would allow students to enter the system by first working in public office and learning the importance of a participatory democracy. Free Education from the Cradle to the Grave!
11-. Teach Dialogue at an early Age and Eliminate the competition between science and religion by teaching them as separate subjects. Invest in Public education and avoid underfunding by properly using the Tax revenues for the people's institutions not war against the people of this country or any other! Our citizens cannot think for themselves, people do not know their rights and more often than not they endorse the status quo because they do not know how to think. Teaching Socratic dialogue from Kindergarten can address this issue.
12-. Make every citizen to have to read Rousseau and all the Enlightenment Period writers. Make a humanist of every living being in the US! Any citizen using the words socialism or communism have to have read Engels, Saint Simon, Cohen, Marx, instead of engaging irrational rhetorical arguments the product of oratory, parrot speakers, or a faulty academic upbringing. Eliminate parrot citizens by teaching People to reason and draw conclusions form an early age and by their own selves, consensus is quite possible. A gun does not make you free, a humanist mind does! The pen can be more lethal than the sword!
Your platform proves you are not the 99%. You are the less than 1% who are Obozo's "useful idiots." Stalinism is dead. Try to ban guns and the private ownership of property, and you will be too. You all are beneath contempt.
These points are right on. I love the total containment of personal freedom and thought. The mission cannot be accomplished with state's rights. Further the agenda by revoking the 10th amendment and all states rights. These silly children (like Texas) cannot be trusted to make their own policy. All power should be contained in one central government -- probably one person. It is clear that the masses cannot think for themselves and need real intellectuals in Washington to determine the course of Americans' lives. Just look at how capitalism has caused the worst country, both economically and politically, in the history of mankind. We need to aspire to Italy and Greece. Now, that is success!! Onward soldiers!!!
Right on, bro. We should chain up everyone in this nation. Make'em slaves. Force each person to get down on their knees and beg for the slop fed to them. No rights, No freedoms, No hope. Eliminate prisons, after all, under these new rules, we are all prisoners. And one person in charge. Hmm.. how about someone from the Chinese government? After all, they pretty much own our country anyways. :/
ban the private ownership of land, huh? I hope you realize that the "pursuit of happiness" youre probably rolling around screaming that youre entitled to was 18th Century rhetoric for the right to own property- not a legitimate right to run around and pursue having a smile on your face. It is the AMERICAN CREED we all live by that we are entitled to LIFE, LIMITED GOVERNMENT, and THE RIGHT TO OWN PROPERTY- translated for all you 2st century hippies.
There is a way to get things done, and its by voting for people who support your wishes. You all need to go home, figure out what politicians you support, and work on their campaign trails. Push for what you want through the system and stop electing the cool guys. If you don't succeed, well, that's just the way a democratic republic works. and if you don't like it, then leave.
Our world is growing increasingly socialist and there is NOTHING wrong with that. But vote it in, use the tools our founding fathers gave us to make these decisions. The Constitution is a living entity in this country, it is your vocation to nurture it for the future.
you forgot about making it illlegal to drink your own urine
I am glad you speak for yourself kid.
You want to gut the Constitution, ban death penalties and life terms for say Richard Allan Davis. He raped and then killed a nine year old girl and you want piece of trash back on the streets?
There are to many things wrong to even reply to them all and I support the OWS.
Can I add to the demands:
The TOTAL wealth including assets sold and made liquid of the top 1%, like Michael Moore, George Soros, Bill Clinton and Barak Hussein Obama and a bunch of good liberals by the way, is less than ONE TRILLION DOLLARS! That's less than 8% of the total national debt, which is $6 TRILLION higher, thanks to Obama, now over $14 TRILLION. Even if you raise taxes on the top 1% of wage earners 30% more than current levels, that will pay less than 0.07% of the current national debt, not even a DENT!!!! The whole premise is take from the haves and give to the have nots, and most of the have nots are LAZY who won't work for it like most wealthy people. MOST of the wealthy EARNED it themselves and started with NOTHING! It's the minority who got it from their loaded parents! And if YOU people had it, you'd be PISSED if someone tried to take it away and give it to others!!! You're all a bunch of hypocrites who can't play by the rules. Most of you probly have records and people who know you have long considered you pains in the ass anyway! Bunch of thug mob extremists!!!
I'm curious. Is this your opinion, or do you have research references that back up "MOST of the wealthy EARNED it themselves and started with NOTHING!" ?
MOST of the wealthy EARNED it themselves and started with NOTHING!
bullshit
OWS is creating a type of riot tat is tearing apart our ntion and it led by people that have no motivation to make money themselves. The system of gov and business is working, not perfectly but it works.... It has created a nation tat is greater than any other.....
lol.. is this serious?
Can we please just keep in mind that these demands were posted by ONE user and it does not represent the movement. Please, lets not be ignorant, obviously this is a ridiculous list and it can't be taken seriously.
YOU keep trying to sell that! Many of these are things that are on VIDEO of people in different cities DEMANDING in chants and signs. This list IS the reality of what the movement wants! Deal with the reality of the occupy thug movement.
I used to read Dilbert to get my daily comic relief. This is much better. I thank all you loonballs for the smiles.
Who is bchang1987? This is what happens when the government shuts down mental hospitals.
Ban private gun ownership? You guys are on the side of the people? Really? Who is going to take the guns from the body guards of the Wall Street crowd? No one. Bloomberg and Gates will still have their guns. You are a bunch of Marxist frauds. Same pig, different make-up. What is really scary, is most of these are on the national Democratic Party platform.
This should just be removed. It is ridiculous, far-fetched, and inflammatory to those of us who know and understand the message. Although I'm not sure this person was being serious, and thus helping those who would discredit this movement by giving them more ammunition. This person does not speak for me, and these are not my demands, but I am the 99%.
This confirms it, the "Occupiers" are, by and large, a bunch of morons!
So they want the Government to take control of ALL private owned buisnesses and dictate who works there and how much they earn. They want to Open the borders to whatever criminal that wants to escape his/her own country and pay them for coming here. They want social security to raise it's funding for those who never contributed. They want to get high with no fear of prosecution. They don't want to pay back the money they borrowed which they had no intention of repaying to begin with. And they want to completely abolish any religion (Unless it's thiers). Socialism? No. COMMUNISM.
Perfect example of crooked business dealing from GM They need to stop Exploiting this and do what’s right fix it.
I would like to bring to your attention a problem that needs attention regarding a on going issue with GM and hundreds of it’s customers that own some GM products. This issue has been ignored/sidestepped by GM since 2006 and continues today as this article is being published.
The problem is the heater doors in these vehicles is a faulty design that WILL break not may break but will. This is a safety issue at this time of the year if someone is away from home and it breaks they have no way to defrost there windshield which can lead to accidents.
The problem is the actuating motor over extending the actuating arm of the heater door that causes stress in the plastic the result is failure of the heater door (breakage) (heater/AC exchange door). This is a design flaw not a wear and tear issue GM knows about it and has ignored it and they even have the gull to try and get the consumer to assume part of the responsibility for it.
If one contacts GM PR offices on this issue the first thing they are told is “You could have purchased a EXTRA warrantee to cover such things”. A warrantee to cover a badly designed component that’s absurd. If you persist in this they then will have you take the vehicle to the dealer to verify the issue then try to make a deal to split the repair cost that can be from $500.00 to $1000.00 labor for a $30.00 plastic part that was designed by GM this also is ridiculous. They try to compare it to balls joint and tie rods breaking which is an insult to ones intelligence the two do not compare what so ever. Ball joint and other parts fail because of wear and tear that is an expected issue at some point in the life of the automobile. The heater problem is a design issue even GM can not predict when it will fail it could break the very first time it is used or it may go on for a couple years before failure it isn’t a matter of if or it could possibly fail but when will it fail. Even after the broken piece is repaired the issue of when is still there it can break again at any point in time then you will be faced with the same cost again. Since the consumer has no hand in designing this component GM bares all responsibility for it. You will be also told that this is a “common problem issue that is why there has not been a recall”. A common problem issue that’s to say the least and they see no need to recall and fix the problem.
The person I spoke with at GM tried to assure me that once GM fixes this issue it would not reinstall the same type of parts the problem would no longer exists. When I asked him Has Gm started to address this yet since it is ongoing since at least 2006 he told me no they have no plans to that he knows of.
There are hundreds of owners that have or had this exact issue. You can see complaints filed with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) web sight as well as people on forms all over the net.
The only resolution to this is a forced recall or a mass boycott of all GM products that uses this faulty component in there product line, since GM will not do what is right and step up to fix this problem . They need to stop the continued practice of trying to get the consumer to bare some responsibility and cost to repair the issue, since they created it and knowingly installed a badly designed component in there products in the first place.
All of this just confirms the talk of GM quality taking a nose drive for the past couple years. It seems the talk on the net is true GM has gone down hill fast.
I was a GM customer most of my life but now I say lets drop GM and Support Ford.
allover1@live.com
Already done, I will never buy another product from GMC again, not a car, auto part, appliance, not a thing, they are now official traitors.
Quit calling yourselves the 99%! I am definitely NOT in the top 1% economically (or anywhere near it), but NONE of what you stand for represents me. AT. ALL.
try these:
The Occupiers stand for the proposition that the United States Government has been turned into a Corporatocracy - that the only entities which have a real voice in governance at least at the Federal level, and in many cases at the State level, are corporations and individuals with very high net worth (also known as the One Percent.) This Corporatocracy has subverted and corrupted the Government in many ways: Here are some of the problems they're looking at:
Legislation is written by corporate lobbyists and is introduced, carried, and advocated for by members of Congressmen who are financially tied to those corporations, where the legislation and regulations arising therefrom advance the corporations' interests over those of the people; [Make this practice a felony for the lobbyists/corps and an impeachable offense for the legislators and create a private right of enforcement.]
Legislators accept large campaign contributions in many ways from corporations and high net worth individuals, and tend to grant direct access and be influenced by them, and give others only indirect access and very little influence; [Make this practice a felony for the lobbyists/corps and an impeachable offense for the legislators and create a private right of enforcement.]
Legislators accept high-paying jobs with the corporations which they support and work for during their terms in office, or go to work as lobbyists for them after their term in office is over; [Make this practice a felony for the legislators and corps and create a private right of enforcement.]
Judges make decisions in favor of corporations and high net worth individuals which benefit those entities at the expense of the taxpayer - and then resign and go to work for those same corporations: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27059 [Make it a felony for judges to do this for 10 years after they resign as judges, and prohibit them from direct or indirect employment by those corps or entities for whom they made favorable decisions]
Student loans have been made non-dischargeable in bankruptcy - a law written by the lenders who stood to benefit hugely by it, and introduced and carried by bought-off Congressmen: Collinge, Alan. The student loan scam : the most oppressive debt in U.S. history, and how we can fight back. Boston, MA : Beacon Press, c2009. ISBN 9780807042298 http://lccn.loc.gov/200801223 [Repeal the laws making student loans undischargeable in bankruptcy, and prosecute lenders and schools which have participated in kickback schemes and othe forms of collusion under the RICO laws.]
Makers of fraudulent mortgages have remained unindicted and unprosecuted despite large amounts of evidence showing that they committed fraud, and they continue to benefit by their wrongdoing due to collusion by the government in these schemes: http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2011/10/lenders-put-lies-in-liars-loans-and.html [Can be fixed by investigating, indicting, and prosecuting people and corporations (under the RICO laws) engaging in those transactions - my suggestion is to appoint William Black () to do this.]
Regulatory agencies are “captured” by the corporations they are supposed to regulate, and corporate lobbyists and executives are appointed to agency jobs - or agency heads are given corporate positions after a long history of making decisions which favor the regulated corporations: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124580461065744913.html [Can be fixed by legislation making it a felony for corps to hire agency people earlier than 8 years after their retirement/resignation and making it an impeachable offense to appoint corporate people to agency jobs, and giving a private right of enforcement to the people.]
The doctrine of “corporate personhood” and judicial decisions, such as Citizens United, based on it should be legislatively overturned: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125314088285517643.html [Can be fixed by appropriate legislation.]
This list is not exhaustive or complete, but it’s a start.
Sooo... let's say I own a business... selling t-shirts and writing articles (well, actually, I do). I am the only person in my business. I get paid based on how many people look at my articles and how many people buy my t-shirts. Let's say, in my dreams, that I became really successful at this and I end up making profits of $91/hr. Who gets the extra profit? Do I have to give it to the government? Of after a certain point, will people be banned from buying my t-shirt or looking at any of my articles until the next day?
Also, because I work for myself and I love my job so much (after all, it's fun designing t-shirts and writing articles), who is going to track my working hours? Will someone come to my house and time me all day to make sure that I don't go above six hours? They'd have to be at my house all day long, because I do my work sporadically. Then, in my union (since I'm a union worker now) who represents management? Me, or me? Who is the worker? Me? I'd have to be schizophrenic to have a labor dispute in my small business of one.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-ows-demands/
This sounds like a joke, but this is actually what these socialist commie libs want to do to our country!!! Can you say Treason? Mark my words - there will be another civil war in this country, and the sooner the better!!!
Sent from my iPhone
This is an absolute mockery of what all are ancestors have died for since man set foot here. If you all don't remember our ancestors came here to get away from ideas and rules like these. This is an outrage, I am absolutely positive you will be crushed. Our country is not perfect nethier am I and you all sure as hell have your heads on backwards. Get out from behind your degrees and all the (BS) your clouded with and walk through a grave yard see who fought for us. It was our family's, freind's son's and daughter's. So thank you all so much for your appreciation for our country and our people.
Can someone please give a real list of demands?
This is war! #occupy is the enemy of all free people and they must be stopped.
This is war! #occupy is the enemy of all free people and they must be stopped.
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Please take this list down now It was a good laugh
Lol you forgot to mandate the Govt to start production of these items:
Time Travel Flying skateboards like in Back to The Future Matter Reorganizers Hooters that deliver and the girls hand feed you wings.
That is all.
Why is this still up? If it does not correctly agree with the aims of the Occupy Wall Street movement, then it should have, and just as easily could have been deleted months ago. Allowing a ridiculous post like this to stay on the forum not only dilutes the validity of the goals of the OWS, but also makes it so that the OWS is supporting these ideas. All of these proposals are ludicrous and do a disservice to the actual aims of the OWS movement. And as a side note, they are all completely against the Constitution and if any or all of these were implemented they would crush our financial and federal economic systems. Where did realism go? You have to work within the boundaries of your law, if you don't like it, there are many countries that do meet these demands - move there.
You really haven't thought these demands out very well have you?
Abolishing all debt will stop dead any lending and with it will be the end of the housing industry, the auto industry, the jewelry industry, the retail industry will suffer without credit cards, nobody would be starting businesses, businesses would shut down if they can't borrow to float themselves for short periods of time. If you borrow money then you'd better expect to continue paying it back as you agreed to regardless of your financial situation.
6 weeks vacation and 6 hour days? We still won't have it as good as those members of the teachers unions. How well is that working out in european nations?
Of course make a company continue to pay employees when there isn't enough money coming in to pay their wages. Does it really make sense to any rational mind to allow someone to live in a house if they aren't paying for it as they agreed? What happened to personal responsibility?
$18/hour? $10 for a hamburger at McDonalds seem like a fair price. Why is it some people are so concerned about things not being fair? All this talk about 'inequity' is childish. Who will determine what is "fair"? The government? Like they've done a good job anywhere trying to do that. Everyone being equal is one of the main ideas of communism, how well is that working out? If you think "bankers" and CEOs have it so much better than everyone else, you don't demand that the government put you on the same level they are; you become a banker or CEO. If you're a secretary and you don't think it's right that a fireman makes more than you do, become a fireman. If you like having lots of leisure time, but you want to make the same money as someone who works two jobs, then you make your choice as to what you value more and you live it. if you're a teacher and think that you should be earning more do something that pays more.
What English only laws?
Open borders? By all means, we need more people to clean our toilets, wash our dishes and lay our sod for $18/hr.
Negative income tax??? No matter how you do the math even at a 90% tax rate you won't squeeze enough out of "the rich" to pay for the things you demand the government give you. Then you demand an annual 5% tax on "the rich". Who will decide who is "rich" enough to qualify to have 95% of their earnings taken from them and who will decide what that money will be used for? Everyone can't be on the same level. Some people will be born with richer parents, better looks, more athletic ability, more brains, a better environment, etc., etc. All of them won't be good at the same things and the only way to make sure they all "get a trophy" in the same areas is to make sure that everyone is equally mediocre. Smart people push for equality of opportunity and let everyone rise to his own level while liberals try to tear people down and turn them all into losers to insure equality of results.
Ban private ownership of land? How will that happen? Are you going to tell me I no longer own the house and property it sits on? The property I spent 30 years paying off the mortgage? Did anyone think what would happen to homes across the country if nobody owns the home they live in? Look at the government housing projects. If you don't own it then you don't care about keeping the property maintained. Of course in the OWS world all land will be owned by the government making them bigger and more powerful. Isn't this what you're trying to get away from?
Abolish the debt limit? This kind of goes against the whole idea of making the government fiscally responsible doesn't it?
Elect your own supervisor because we all know that the most popular person will make the most effective leader.
Abolish homeschooling because opposed to indoctrinating our children with liberal propaganda. Where did someone decide that only "religious fanatics" home school their kids? Unless you send the kids off to public boarding school how will you stop anyone from teaching their children about religion?
Ban private ownership of land?
Ban private gun ownership? That'll literally require an act of congress and all 50 states. Good luck with that.
Lower retirement AND increase S.S. benefits. Like the S.S. system being $15 trillion in the red isn't enough.
I am not 1%. Yet. Bill Gates was not born a billionaire, neither was Buffet. In fact, they both came from lower-middle class families. They worked hard and made their way to the top. I know that if I continue to work hard instead of sitting here and complaining that somebody's better off than I am, maybe you will complain about me someday.
I agree with some points and not with others. However; I would posit that consolidation of power is inevitable. Throughout history some person or group of people have always tried (and eventually succeeded) to consolidate more power for themselves and/or their affiliation/organization (for example; Abraham Lincoln, FDR, George W., Barack Obama). I posit that giving more power to the federal government (in the form of increased legislation) will have the exact opposite effect of what the poster wishes to happen (equal distribution of power). Instead, I believe that power will shift from the "rich" to the federal government (rich is in parenthesis because of the ambiguity of the term) . I also disagree with the premise that the "rich" and politicians are two different groups. Shifting power from one to the other is mere sleight of hand and will do no good for the 99%. In fact, the increased legislation will further hamper personal freedoms. Instead, I suggest letting the individual states decide on most of these issues (by majority vote). If California wants to ban guns, more power to them. I will not bring a gun into their state nor will I ever become a citizen of said state.
PS. Abolishing the debt limit is the fastest way to ensure the federal government (and their puppet masters) grows into a monster too big to control.
Gee, so these bums can smoke even more crack. Ah, please go OD on the stuff so we can clean up our country
Are the people of this country that far apart on these issues?
Arguing against whoever wrote this list would be like arguing with a crying infant. Why bother? Just make sure they are kept separate from those of us who wish to live productive and happy lives without interference from those who are incapable.
I hoped this was going to be an actual list of OWS demands. It's obviously a gag (by someone in middle or high school?). It is funny! I wanted about a third of those things when I was 14. Then you get older and realize what the consequences would be--both intended and unintended. Of course back then I also wanted McGovern to be president!
If, as you claim, that "(t)his is not an official list of demands. The user "bchang1987" who posted this speaks only for themself, not the movement. This website would never in a million years endorse a list of demands of the 1%," then pull it off the website you freaking retards!!
LOL! Tards.
I won't waste my time re-typeing all the socialism and anti constutional garbage spewed in 24 lines of change demands . I was under the asumption that OWS wanted the way wall street did business and wanted it to change . well I must be wrong . I say if one line were true , We just shut this garbge down now ! The towns and citys have been held hostage by the first amendment to allow these thugs to take over and destry the town folks take pride in and pay tax's in . In there wake is depleted city fund and a big mess to clean up . Do the protesters care ? I don't think so . My anger knows no bounds when I see how people are being thaken advantage of by these self centerd , uncareing , delusinial people .
I won't waste my time re-typeing all the socialism and anti constutional garbage spewed in 24 lines of change demands . I was under the asumption that OWS wanted the way wall street did business and wanted it to change . well I must be wrong . I say if one line were true , We just shut this garbge down now ! The towns and citys have been held hostage by the first amendment to allow these thugs to take over and destry the town folks take pride in and pay tax's in . In there wake is depleted city fund and a big mess to clean up . Do the protesters care ? I don't think so . My anger knows no bounds when I see how people are being thaken advantage of by these self centerd , uncareing , delusinial people .
This writer is an obvious victim of the American education monopoly. Solutions lie in ever more government mandate.
This is more of a public striptease by the writer than anything else. It must be somehow thrilling to fantasize about imposing one's will on everyone else.
Little Hitlers should avoid politics.
Oh si si. Muy bien. I do like this senors. This means I can continue to sleep and eat tacos while getting paid. This is Guillermo's dream ever since I ran across the border.
"not in a million years..." ??? than why is is list still posted?
The problem with having this kind of forum is that rather silly people post quite stupid lists that are not germane to the issue at hand. I received this list as the “Official” position of OWS and one would hope it does not represent a majority position. In order to be taken seriously one must make serious proposals not ridiculous fantasy. OWS has the capacity to bring about change but sadly this sort of thing does not help.
listen, i'm all for steps in this general direction, but the points you're making are extreme to the point of being unrealistic and downright idiotic. it's upsetting to me that people think that you represent this movement. do us all a favor and keep your dumb mouth shut so you can stop giving us all a bad name.
All mean people have to stop being mean immediately. All people will cease staring at other people or giving mean looks to other people. Chicks have to put out on the first date. Showing will only happen once a week. The 1% will give electric cars to the 99% immediately. Everyone gets an A on every test. And no more homework. Classes are shortened to half an hour each and we get more recess and more holidays. And every school days is a short day.
All mean people have to stop being mean immediately. All people will cease staring at other people or giving mean looks to other people. Chicks have to put out on the first date. Showing will only happen once a week. The 1% will give electric cars to the 99% immediately. Everyone gets an A on every test. And no more homework. Classes are shortened to half an hour each and we get more recess and more holidays. And every school days is a short day.
7/10 Which is the best troll attempt I've ever seen. LOL. I just want to say whoever said this. You're fucking brilliant.
Or you're a right wing tard trying to discredit an otherwise honest movement. These are pretty ridiculous demands. Just so all you country hicks no, this does not actually represent anything real. It's just a forum post on a random forum.
Why is this even up if it's just someone's idea let them put it up ont their own site if OWS doesnt endorse, condone or support these proposed ideas why is it on the site? BECAUSE they will use it against you. as they already have:: http://americanvisionnews.com/281/ows-demands-force-unionization-outlaw-homseschooling-force-communism
I'm so scared for my future.
I'm homeschooled now, and I can GUARANTEE that I am not fed propaganda. If anything, I stay more above the propaganda than children in school. I just worry that after all these hours of school I have put in, I will only make as much money as a person who failed school, or got D's.
I am sincerely worried about the future of this country. It may not be the right time to put this in, but I honestly believe that Ron Lawl is the best hope for any amount of good change in this country. I find it inspiring to watch the OWS protests, but only because it gives me hope that the government can control us, but only to a certain point. These demands are quite ridiculous though.
I wonder if there will be a “Occupy Beijing,” “Occupy Shanghai,” “Occupy Guangzhou,” “Occupy Zhongnanhai,” and “Occupy Lhasa" website opening anytime soon. I'm sure it will never exist, the Chinese government will shut it down faster then a nanosecond. What's sad about it 36 percent of the Chinese people (that’s 481 million people) live on $2 a day or less wage. Now that's something to protest about, THE REAL "Big Brother"=Chinese Gov't.
Hmmmmm....
I wonder if there will be a “Occupy Beijing,” “Occupy Shanghai,” “Occupy Guangzhou,” “Occupy Zhongnanhai,” and “Occupy Lhasa" website opening anytime soon. I'm sure it will never exist, the Chinese government will shut it down faster then a nanosecond. What's sad about it 36 percent of the Chinese people (that’s 481 million people) live on $2 a day or less wage. Now that's something to protest about, THE REAL "Big Brother"=Chinese Gov't.
Hmmmmm....
tyrany and tyranny . Communists and thugs. the occupiers must go. Should be arrested for sedition against the constitution , against the persuit of freedon and liberty for all. George soros , mike moore. obama, jimmy carter. enemies of the state.
Yep. Know just how you feel. That right there is the problem with free speech. Opinions are like assholes and everybody's got one. I personally would love to arrest every person who creates a negative campaign add and broadcasts it on TV. As well as anyone who knowingly distorts the truth on a news station. Those people, do not deserve to be heard. We should pass a law so that only our OWN speech is free- huh? are ya with me? That way you can arrest your commie enemies and I can arrest.. well, people like you.
tyrany and tyranny . Communists and thugs. the occupiers must go. Should be arrested for sedition against the constitution , against the persuit of freedon and liberty for all. George soros , mike moore. obama, jimmy carter. enemies of the state.
I disagree about opening the boarders to all immigrants. Why? I just think that the USA could not handle so many people. It would bring the worlds poverty and problems here.
The lower end of the scale is that people who live here have to compete with the low wage jobs with the illegals. That is the problem. I do understand that alot of the farming work is done by illegals because its very physically demanding. Though when I go down to the local small shops I think I find illegals behind the counters. I think where are the Americans going to work? Not everyone can get a degree or higher education. This is a difficult subject and area. I do not have clear ideas on how to resolve this. Though I do believe that the USA needs a bigger population. Id like the population of the USA to be at least 600 million. Ok everyone. get cracking on that ;)
I totally disagree with ban on private gun ownership. Gun ownership is a fundamental right and I can not see myself obeying that law. The main problem I see with it is that you are going to let the criminals have the guns but not the US law obeying citizen. I would disobey this law right off the bat if it was enforced. It would lead to armed rebellion . I would rally with like minded people and challenge any authorities.
You can take the gun from my cold dead hand.
Unions. I disagree with everyone having to be in a union. I believe in volunteer system
There needs to be special law just for unions and associations on auditing and behaviour of union officials. The constant corruption in the unions and associations is annoying. We need specific laws to deal with it.
Specifically we need a system to get three signatures on expenses to be reviewed at a later date. Why so many people? It is more likely that someone will talk or expose something if there are more people then less. These 3 people can not be related by blood or marriage.
I want all the expenses of a union to be kept safe in 3 geographically different places so its hard to lose the records. The key in the cronyism in asssociations and unions is the lost records. Its always the problem. The simple solution is to keep the records and always use a debit or credit card , no cash. If a union takes out cash, there needs to be vote on this by all members. If he can not explain why? Then he needs to be removed from the union.
Then we can follow the money. This needs to be in law. Then the next part that will take time to implement. The 3rd part is that any union member can have access to the records of the union to see what is going on. That is to have the accounts ideally open for inspection at anytime via the internet. Why? More eyeballs that can see through the expenses and incomes, the more less likely things can go undetected.
Do you want to fix America? How? CEO pay has to be regulated. I am tired of the CEO pay for failure. I want the boards that award the crazy pay have to show mathematically how its a good for the corporation to pay one person that much. I do not want the justification to be oh the other company pays the CEO that much. Thats just hooey. Its just like me saying, Hey that guy jumped in the river and drowned himself, so we do that too? Thats no excuse.
Then Id like a law, CEO and Chairman in public corporations have to be different people , not married or by blood relation.
The directors who sit on boards can only sit on one board. Why? That then forces the director to worry about losing his job. The problem right now is many directors sit on 10 boards. That means then the stockholder interest in keeping the corporation alive is not the same as the directors.
Then the other problem which i have not found a solution is the CEOs in the funds ( funds hold the 401ks) voting the boards in for the corporations. We actually have CEOs of the funds who own the stock in the corporations. They offcourse will never push down the CEO pay. Its against there own self interest. THis is the WHOLE GAME. We need to break the neck of this problem. The CEOs in pension funds and funds vote in the boards in they hold stock in. Its a circle of CEOs controlling this.
We need to fix this. Thats why there needs to be regulation.
There has been some who theorize another way to align the CEOs and top earners, anyone who earns more then 5x the US median wage. They can't be paid the money or renumeration above five times right away.
All criminality exists for the purpose of fast cash. If you can stop the fast cash. You can stop the criminality in most cases. So let them offer any pay they want but they can not collect it until 10 years after they sign on. Then at only 10 percent per annum( 10 % per year) . That locks them into the company for 20 years. They just can't take the cash and leave.
Then to make it even more interesting, That cash can only be paid from income stream, not from the sale of income producing assets. That little turkey in the end will cause alot of heard ache.
All you people that are stupid enough to actually believe this is some sort of official list of demands for the OWS movement and cannot read the header that clearly states this was a single idiots demands, are oblivious to the facts and I pity your intelligence or lack thereof. The stupidity of people astounds me.This all sounds obsurd because it was written for that very purpose. You cannot see the mis-information and propaganda for what it is, even if it walked up and waved a sign in your face stating the obvious: Its BULL@#$% mis-information
Even the link for occupy at bottom is a fake link that shows more bull@#$% anyone would find infuriating and all these comments show that its working. Don't get mad....get INFORMED!!!!. Do real research people and quit clicking and believing the first link you click and maybe theres hope for you all.
In other words, destroy the United States Constitution and turn the US into Communism. Over our dead bodies.....As someone already said...GET OUT!!!!!!! Go live in North Korea, Communism works so well there. You ignorant, spoiled brats need an attitude adjustment. Instead of destroying what has given you the FREEDOM to spout your complete and utter NONSENSE, you seek to take away all the FREEDOM. In your world, you will not have the FREEDOM to do anything! You will not have the money even own anything! You will permanently be living in those little tents George Soros bought for you, I hope you realize. For, when the borders are open, the entire Third World will be rushing in and whatever you own will be gone, along with the entire economy.
All those "rich people's income" you spout on and on about will be gone in about A DAY. After that one day, what will do all do to PAY for everything? HMMMM??? NONE OF YOU ever have an answer that! Because none of you are good at anything but repeating crap that other people say first, I guess you'll all be on some assembly line somewhere. Obviously the dollar will be worth nothing, so $18.00 an hour will be like Zimbabwe, worth about 50 cents. lolololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But you all are too stupid to know one darn thing about real economy. You probably think the bs the UC Santa Cruz Communist Econ prof taught you was correct. Hint: It wasn't.
Here's a clue: After the American Revolution which was fought, not with anarchy or mobs in the street, but rather intelligence, ideas and thought. The US Constitution was put into place, we had a working, great country.
After the French Revolution, which was fought with mobs and anarchy France had Napoleon.
So I work for a living (as opposed to protest for a living), and I don't want almost any of these things put in place. Why would we want an end to the debt limit? Or laws in foreign languages? Or a $90/hour maximum wage?
I love capitalism, because it is a promise that I can sweat and work and rise to the top on m own merits. I am also angry at elements in our country, including banking industry and politicians, who are hamstringing this country's limitless potential. None of these demands, nor erecting camps that cost thousands of MY tax dollars in police oversight and clean up, are a path to the betterment of America.
I recommend everyone here read the book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad with an open mind. It has nothing to do with parenthood, it is a book about how one's philosophy towards money determines true success.
I have found the more I have earned...the more I spend (bigger house, a nicer car or simply going out more often/to nicer places or new toys for my children). So whatever I was being paid was never enough. I think most people would fall into this trap. Perhaps, as the book suggests, schools should teach personal finance courses so that most of us do not enter adult life so clueless in regards to money and how it really works.
Wallow in self pity if you want, or learn the rules of the game and play it yourself...you have a choice.
I have major issues with several of these, but by far the strongest is so-called "homeschooling". If i were to replace that word with "full-time parenting", how many people would support that demand? We chose to give children the option of not going to school, which they took, because state schooling is clearly oriented towards turning out nice, docile, pro-capitalist consumers who don't think for themselves and looking after people's kids so they can go out to be wage slaves for the military-industrial complex.
*Immediate debt forgiveness for all. WOW sweet so does this mean I own my house now? Oh wait part of your plan is to make it so I can't own land hmm. So who owns my house, the government?? What about first time home buyers how do they buy a new house, does the government just tell them what house they get?? Ok your plan sucks...
*Ban private gun ownership. But I paid $1k dollars that I worked really hard for my P30 and I really like going to the shooting range and shooting my gun. Ok your plan sucks even more.
Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits. Wow this sounds really awesome I get to retire at 55 and get more money from Social Security! And that lady at McDonald's is going to become a US citizen!?! But wait, who's going to pay for me and the nice McDonald’s lady to sit around and watch TV when we turn 55? Oh yeah those rich evil 1% because we are going to tax them at 90%, WOOO! But wait a second there are only 14,000 people who make up the rich evil 1% and even though they make on average $31 million per year, even if we take ALL the money they make every year that is only $434 billion dollars and our country is already spending $1.3 TRILLION dollars in debt each year… Oh man your plan sucks really bad…
Here’s my plan tax everyone a little more and cut spending some so we can stop going $1.3 Trillion dollars in debt each year and start paying off the $3.6 Trillion dollars we already have in debt. Otherwise we will just end up like Greece and Italy and won’t even be able to pay our interest on our debt anymore.
Someone posted these points to disgrace the movement. Fox News would love this.
Pure Evil, Nothing but Pure Evil
This list makes OWS look ridiculous. This has little to do with the economic issues which the OWS is based upon, and is instead a broad liberal biased agenda. Enough people mock the OWS movement as they believe there is no defined purpose. If this list is used by mainstream media as a representation of the OWS purpose, it will undermine any potential positive outcome.
Did anyone here realize that this website and its demands are being used against the movement? People are being linked here and believe that the OWS movement is actually proclaiming these demands as the legitimate list of the movement. I wish you would delete this webpage.....Check this out!
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/11/what_does_occupy_wall_street_want.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/11/what_does_occupy_wall_street_want.html
lol, you anti American punks need to wake up take a shower and get a job.
Now I'm known to be quite liberal, but some of these things are not at all realistic, and I'm hoping that this being posted does not detract from the Occupy movement. First of all, I am already fighting with my family about homeschooling my child. I do not believe that public schools are a positive or even productive experience for children, and essentially public "education" is brainwashing people. I may concede to her going to preschool and maybe kindergarten, for my husband's sake, But no further than that. Besides, I actually WANT my kid. I wouldn't have had her if I didn't and I'm not about to push her off on the system or anyone else. I would be more in support of banning ANY nuclear activity globally, instead of banning guns, and I am in favor of extending the death penalty to things like child molestation, killing a wanted unborn child, and DUI's resulting in death. Also I think that financing campaigns should be done away with all together. I want money out of politics completely... and I don't like the 6 hour work day or the lowered retirement age... I think the list posted by Anonymous is a better starting place
This is not an official statement. Some clown posted it.. anonymously, no less.
If the media posted these demands, the movement would die overnight.
We live in a republic, not a democracy. It was "democracy" that resulted in the Wars. Bush buffaloed over 70 percent into believing it was the right thing to do. Most people have forgotten that and just want to blame Bush but the vast majority of Americans believed his lies. It's what democratic mob mentality leads to do.
The Greeks proved that pure democracy is the vilest form of government and our founding fathers knew that. It's why we have a representative form of government modeled after the Romans.
That said, all members of Congress are liars and crooks with only a few exceptions, but the name of the best one cannot be posted here.
If you want to make true change, then vote out all of the dirty rotten scoundrels.
For the record, I am a strict Constitutionalist and am not allied with either mainstream party .
This is not an official statement. Some clown posted it.. anonymously, no less.
If the media posted these demands, the movement would die overnight.
We live in a republic, not a democracy. It was "democracy" that resulted in the Wars. Bush buffaloed over 70 percent into believing it was the right thing to do. Most people have forgotten that. It's what mob mentality leads to do.
The Greeks proved that pure democracy is the vilest form of government and our founding fathers knew that. It's why we have a representative form of government similar to the Romans.
That said, all members of Congress are liars and crooks with only a few exceptions, most notably RP.
The board will not allow me post his full name. It changes his last name to Lawl. Interesting.
If you want to make true change, then vote out the dirty rotten scoundrels.
I will never agree with banning homeschooling, gun ownership, land ownership, or opening the borders to any and all. There are plenty of non-religious homeschoolers, there's this thing called the 2nd Amendment, banning land ownership would put family farms out of business, and frankly? Not a single nation on this freaking planet allows unlimited immigration.
Come on--I agree with raising the minimum wage, single-payer healthcare, and modifying Taft-Hartley to bar "right to work" regulations that allow employers to fuck their workers over. But the rest? You're on crack, dude.
You guys are so fucking high it's no wonder you want the war on drugs to end. In reality you only represent about 5% of America so quit with this 99% nonsense. The vast majority of us know that in the game of life there will be winners and losers. Some people are talented and some are not. Some people are very smart and some are very stupid (see OWS) and the vast majority of us are secure in the knowledge that if we ditched the unions, work hard or take a gamble and start our own enterprise that may or may not succeed, get the government out of our personal lives and shrink them to a manageable size and arm our selves to the teeth so that nitwits like you can't tear down our Constitution and try to bully defenseless (unarmed) citizens into falling into lockstep with your twisted agenda. Hitler tried your game once and he failed just as you will fail. So go home, commit to becoming a strong, self sustaining citizen who doesn't rely on anyone for their daily bread but themselves and plan on working hard for your piece of the pie. Sure, there are some silver spoons, many are amongst you and feel guilty, but if you don't wan't mommy and daddys money tell em to stuff it where the sun don't shine and do your own thing. Other silver spoons will no doubt go on through life as spoiled shit heads pushing folks around. Kind of like you are trying to do now. And if you don't think there will be winners and losers in your utopian bullshit above... think again or just get into the chronically stupid line and stay put.
The Fed and money creation need to be put back under government control instead of big bank control.
Currently the Fed which is owned by the banks creates money deposits it in the big banks which lend it out increasing it by 10 times, then the government borrows the money back with interest and spends it.
This leads of ever increasing interest costs because of compounding and is one factor wrecking our economy.
Under a bill and a plan http://monetary.org money creation would be returned to the government which is where the Constitution says its should be, the debt could be paid off without causing recessions and we would no longer have to pay interest on money creation, also the Fed is limited to controlling interest rates.
The Fed and money creation need to be put back under government control instead of big bank control.
Currently the Fed which is owned by the banks creates money deposits it in the big banks which lend it out increasing it by 10 times, then the government borrows the money back with interest and spends it.
This leads of ever increasing interest costs because of compounding and is one factor wrecking our economy.
Under a bill and a plan http://monetary.org money creation would be returned to the government which is where the Constitution says its should be, the debt could be paid off without causing recessions and we would no longer have to pay interest on money creation, also the Fed is limited to controlling interest rates.
It would be nice to be able to vote on individual items and add moderated items.
Im confused by the demand to ban Homeschooling. Homeschooling is not only undertaken by those who are religous but also by families who feel it is the best interest of their child because the local school may be too far away, is of poor standard, wholly unsuitable to meet the needs of their child or for a whole host of other reasons. The rest of the list...I can agree with some but others seem a bit "pie in the sky". Or maybe pigs really will fly...?
These aren't the requests of OWS, they are the requests of the globalists, the UN and Soros. If that was the actual demands I'd be helping the police bash their heads in~ not really I don't fight non-violent peaceful Americans exercising their rights.... I went to the protests in Dallas and the folks there wanted the foreign owned Federal Reserve audited and abolished. Government accountability and transparency, end the wars over seas and on drugs which are both unConstitutional, etc.. point is not everyone at the OWS are dumb fascist idiots. Anyone wanting to do away with the Constitution has obviously never read it or they'd know most of our rights, liberties and freedoms have already been stripped away thanks to executive orders and the "un"-patriot act.
I just returned from lower Manhattan speaking to many of the people involved in the OWS protests. I went there tonight with the intention of personally understanding what the people involved would like to see as a resolve. I have been excited to see this movement progress and would like to see positive change as a result of this american action. I met many people who had realistic, positive goals. I also met a few who would like to see our country rot into anarchy. Reading this list of demands has now completely turned me off to the movement. I do agree with a few of the demands listed, but as a whole is completely unrealistic and discredits the movement in the eyes of most americans. I do not deny that our system is flawed, perhaps even broken, but america is not a wash and this movement is bound to loose momentum if the demands are not put into terms that america as a whole can agree to move forward with.
I propose the following list of demands:
End all corporate contributions to political campaigns at the local to national level.
Restrict private contributions to political campaigns to $1000 per individual.
Restrict elected officials from holding private positions, and investing during their time in office and for the following 5 years after leaving office.
All communications between lobbyist and elected officials must be through predetermined communication platform and made available to the public.
Create criminal laws that carry loss of elected position and large jail terms for breaking any of the above laws.
If the above changes would be made to our election process and these addition restrictions placed on those in office, any of the origional demands could be reached in time by fairly electing representatives who are best suited to serve the people and will honorable serve the people while in office The immediate benefit to altering these demands is that the only people who would object to these 5 demands are those who currently abuse and corrupt our system. 250,000,000 people will march to see these demands met....and they will be met.
roll over on your back and submit! - grow some balls and backbone weaklings!
This is insane... I call troll.
I just can't figure out why people who are so concerned with the safety and freedom insist on bullshit like "ban private gun ownership". Who the fuck do these people think they are? How dare you demand to that my basic rights be stripped away from me? It's assholes like this that cause so much pain and suffering for private citizens. Idiots who refuse to acknowledge empirical evidence that proves that violent crimes REDUCE with private gun ownership. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
I just can't figure out why people who are so concerned with the safety and freedom insist on bullshit like "ban private gun ownership". Who the fuck do these people think they are? How dare you demand to that my basic rights be stripped away from me? It's assholes like this that cause so much pain and suffering for private citizens. Idiots who refuse to acknowledge empirical evidence that proves that violent crimes REDUCE with private gun ownership. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
This is the dumbest thing i have ever read. Whoever wrote this sounds like a real winner to me. No wonder why the OWS group looks the way they do, all trashy. I'm wondering how are they paying their bills. Are they homeless...how many use a cell phone or are wearing cloths made by a big corporation. I suggest they really look at themselves and their future. If they took a student loan out...they should pay it back or go to jail for theft. They need to wake up and stop becoming dumber. They are making society worse.
Holy cow, what a bag of ignorant in that list of demands.
Unionize even the workers who, like myself, HATE unions? Where's the liberty in that?
Raise the minimum wage to levels that will GUARANTEE the dismissal of the lowest-skilled workers? Awesome idea! Never mind that EVERY minimum wage hike in HISTORY has been followed by a recession as companies shed workers they can no longer afford.
"Immediate debt forgiveness for all"? Who even THINKS like this?
"Make homeschooling illegal" because it can be used by nutbags to feed propaganda? What about propaganda lists like this? Can we make idiot protesters illegal too? WHERE IS THE LIBERTY IN ABOLISHING ANYTHING?
"Create a single-payer, universal health care system." Where is the freedom of choice? Do you even know what LIBERTY means?
"Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws." There is nothing racist or xenophobic about policies that strive to promote SOCIAL UNITY. It's what ALL societies do. Learn history and anthropology, please.
"Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation." Oh, I get it now. You want to be like Europe! Fantastic job they're doing, by the way.
Why don't you just MOVE TO EUROPE?
"Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US." WHY??? What would be the point of this? To "be nice"?
"Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality." Sorry, bozo, but you cannot "eliminate inequality." Inequality is NATURAL. It is built-in to the human condition.
Try reading the Constitution. We are guaranteed LIBERTY...NOT equality. "Social justice" is not part of this nation's charter. Period.
"Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%." What a tool. With this statement, you reveal the fact that you simply hate successful people.
Well, guess what, bozo: we could tax EVERYBODY at 100% and that would still not be enough to cover the national debt.
The problem is not capitalism, people; the problem is CORPORATISM. And that problem is the result of REGULATION. Liberals and the Democratic Party have created the conditions that you are blaming on capitalists. It's priceless just how clueless you are.
The problem that I find in almost all of these is yes, sure, they sound great, or at least they do now (some, not all). However where will the money come from? and dont say the 1%. The 1% are not going to immediately give up all of their wealth, its just not feasible. when you make demands while protesting they need to be something realistic. This just isn't. The other problem that I have is many of these are hypercritical: "open the borders" and "Raise minimum wage" as well as "Unionize all workers" just doesn't work. there are then too many people and not enough money. Money does not grow on trees, and contrary to popular belief there really just is not enough to do everything you want. There is no stipulation as to where those ridiculous taxes go, such as into social security that you have now made 100s of times more expensive to the tax payer by lowering the age and upping the benefits, though if you are now making more per hour there is no need to up the benefits, especially with that "wonderful" universal health care system you'd like. What benefit does releasing all political prisoners have? they have committed crimes, political crimes, and therefore should face the consequences. Banning the private ownership of land, how does that help anyone? id like ot be able to own my house, and Im sure Joe would like to own his farm, Kelly wants to own her store, that does nothing to help anyone, besides, if not privately owned, who would own it? Electing your supervisor.... Im just going to let you think about all the ways that is wrong, if you cant figure it out then there is a reason you are unemployed and protesting on the streets.
To close this, I am 21, I am in college, it is expensive yes, but I work while I do it. I make almost $11/hr and have since high school. My parents worked hard from the day the graduted high school to help support their kids, They lived within their means and all of us are perfectly happy, no, we are not the 1% but we dont care because we understand how the system works, and it does work. If you would stop feeling as though you deserve something, as though you are owed money from people who have it, that you should be able to have something for nothing; and you would start earning your own way in this world and living within you means, perhaps that means that you cant live in that house in the suburbs, that you cant afford a huge TV or the newest Laptop; then perhaps when you are able to do that you would begin to understand why everyone laughs at you and your utterly ridiculous "demands". None of this will ever happen, it cant. If you would like to be successful then perhaps start with something smaller, something you can accomplish and work from there, after all, that is how capitalism and the free market works, you have to start small to get big.
Corporations own the government? Corporations control the government? Government serves corporations? True!! Thou dost protest in the wrong place. Move your protest from Wall Street to the front of the Capitol and front of the White House. Move your protest to the ballot box. In the government = corporations equation YOU own 1/2 of the equation. Fix it!!
I guess I don't understand why you would want to ban homeschooling. I am a huge fan of the ows movement but not so much now that I see a ban on homeschooling. I was homeschooled because my dad took contract jobs and we moved every 6 months. It was just easier to homeschool me until we got more settled rather then to move me in and out of schools all the time. My parents aren't religious at all and I was always very involved with lots of arts programs and sports to meet other kids. Can someone please explain why it would be so bad to be homeschooled, especially if someone was in a situation like my parents were?
This is the absolute dumbest thing I've ever heard! And the only way you'd be able to pull it off is with violent suppression. Because nobody is going to give up all those rights without a fight.
"Unionize ALL workers immediately." Really... Because we just bailed out the auto industry that unions were a cause of failing. 1930 style unions don't work anymore. "Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18". And watch cost of living increase so your $18 is worth $7. "Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation." You do realize to pay your $18 an hour something has to be created, i.e. goods or services. With all this time off when will it get done. And OBTW no law stops a company from doing this now. "Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately.". RIght because everything is free why do we need to make $18 hour? "Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.". Really we have those now? Where? "Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal." Seriously? We want the worlds criminals coming here? "Create a single-payer, universal health care system." Who pays for it? Oh the inflated dollar your earning... "Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws." Almost with you on this one. "Allow workers to elect their supervisors." Hell NO. I don't want the dumbasses electing dumbasses. Then nothing will get done at all during your 6 hour work day. "Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%." And how do we pay for roads, schools, social security, police, etc.? "Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws." I with you on the first half of this one. On the second half, your on your own. "Lower the retirement age to 55." Because your previous demands will allow you to do this. "Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich." Hmmm... because taxing them already at 90% works well...? "Ban the private ownership of land." Ok, this is just stupid. "Make homeschooling illegal. " Seriously, this too is stupid. "Reduce the age of majority to 16." Almost.. 18 "Abolish the death penalty and life in prison." Again your on your own. This is real dumb. "Release all political prisoners immediately." We still have these? "Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan." Debatable. "Abolish the debt limit." Right, because the previous demands will have money so inflated it will take a wheelbarrow full to buy bread. Google Pre-war Germany. "Ban private gun ownership." WTF, because all the prisoners you released will be so happy to get out they will never commit another crime? Are you serious. Hell No! "Strengthen the separation of church and state." Hmm... thought were doing a pretty good job of that now. "Immediate debt forgiveness for all." Sure... because you chose some stupid underwater basket weaving degree instead of something you can actually use. "End the 'War on Drugs'." I'm with you on this one.
@NormalThinker2011, Where they need to go is China. They can't own land there. They are fed from Gov't school. Not a lot of thought went into these demands. Obviously they took the list from my 9 year olds room and posted it here. Why don't they just demand the same thing my daughter does..."Dad why can't we make everything cost a penny, then we would be rich.". These are obviously the same demands that are causing the France and Greece problems now. Does anyone realize what the cost of living would become if minimum wage went to $18 an hour? I guess not. These kids live in a vacuum... sorry a bong.
Some of this is ridiculous. Tax the rich at rates up to 90%.. This kind of nonsense goes against the very grain, the very fiber of what this country has been about for the last 200 years. Penalize someone who had a dream, an idea, a product and as a result of hard work and dedication was able to become a success.
Many self made millionaires and billionaires are immigrants who started with nothing and made something of themselves; and you want to punish that? So the rich should be forced to bail out a failed government who can't manage money. Why don't you turn your focus to organized religion? The catholic church has enough money between land, material things, and money from donations to bail this country out. Or the baptist churches that have installed ATM's for "easier tithe giving". Hey.. When there isn't enough to "give what you have", just hit your ATM. Besides... It's only right.. America has seen enough of these religious leaders backing political candidates..
If OWS was gonna make demands, they should have made a legit demand to their cause.. Support politicians - lose your tax exemption. They shouldn't be doing that anyways since according to religion, followers of God aren't supposed to support any form of government except GOD's government.. I'm tired of people making excuses and crying over the state of their financial status when they're more concerned with owning massive gas guzzling vehicles, HD tv's, video game systems, and cell phones instead of living within their means. Human greed is equally prevalent in society as it is in wall street.
This is a start. I think people should have not have to work at all. They should spend their life tying to find themselves. This can be done if the government would fund their basic needed.
This is Not a real list of demands!!! this is somebody's desperate attempt to get the middle class to oppose Occupy Wall Street. Darn how can you get played so easily, "Open the borders", "unionize all workers" nobody would seriously see that as a way to restore America. Time to start flagging these decoy lists of demands.
and eliminate all ugly chicks and free beer for all...
and eliminate all ugly chicks and free beer for all...
and eliminate all ugly chicks and free beer for all...
Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.
What if they don't want to be unionized?
Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality. What if a business owner can't afford to pay that, so she is forced out of business and she can't pay food and shelter for her family?
Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation. If you owned a business, would you want someone telling you what kind of deal you had to make with your employees?
Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately. If you were a bank, would you ever give someone a mortgage if you couldn't have collatoral on the property? With layoffs, again--you act as if business owners are rich scum who lay people off because they're mean. Usually it's because they are barely keeping their business afloat and can't AFFORD to pay an employee any longer.
Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws. agreed. Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US. Agreed, as long as we don't give them handouts.
Create a single-payer, universal health care system. Will it pay for me to buy herbs and homeopathic remedies to treat myself? WIll it pay for whoever I want to use for my healthcare, even if I want to use an unlicensed Amish midwife, an unlicensed homeopath or accupuncturist?
Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers. I agree there are some issues there, but I don't agree with your solution entirely.
Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%. So what's my motivation for trying to make my business successful and becoming very rich? I might as well just stay poor and collect money from the people who are stupid enough to work hard and make themselves rich.
Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws. depends.
Allow workers to elect their supervisors. Ummm...
Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits. I'm in my 30's and have pretty much accepted there will be no social security for me. We've run out of money because we've spent too much.
Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich.
Ban the private ownership of land.
Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda. How about instead, we give CHILDREN the FREEDOM to choose whether or not they want to go to school? Schools are essentially a prison that children aren't given much choice about attending...they can't escape their sentence until they're adults.
Reduce the age of majority to 16. Agreed. I'd even go lower. I believe children should have equal rights to adults. That's why I believe school should be optional for all children. Give children the choice, not the parents. Remember, there is another end to the homeschooling spectrum. At the left end of the spectrum are unschoolers and hippies, giving their kids freedom to explore all kinds of wonderful things.
Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons. I'm undecided about this. I have a tendency to agree, but wonder how I'd feel if someone murdered someone I love.
Release all political prisoners immediately. I don't know...there are cases where someone genuinely threatens the security of our country. The word "all" there gives me some trouble.
Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. AGREED!
Abolish the debt limit.
Ban private gun ownership. How will we protect ourselves then? Cross our fingers and hope the police get there in time when we're in the middle of being attacked?
Strengthen the separation of church and state. Absolutely. And I would add to that, fight for the separation of school and state.
Immediate debt forgiveness for all. Would that put credit card companies out of business? I guess that would pretty much end any company's willingness to loan anyone anything. If you're a plumbing and heating guy, and someone can't afford to put in a new furnace, would you lend them the money if you knew they didn't have to pay you back?
End the 'War on Drugs'. Agreed.
Release all convicts into mostly rich neighborhoods after confiscating everyone's guns
Institute 1 hour work days 9 months paid vacation 3 months unpaid vacation (but employee will be allowed to use unemployment benefits at that time)
Lower the retirement age to 12
Raise the minimum wage to $1000 a minute
Unlimited unemployement benefits
Obama, supreme ruler of the world immediately
All children should attend one school in one classroom taught by nancy pelosi
Anyone caught saying the word "God" or "Jesus" within a 3000 mile radius of any american citizen, will be sent to antarctica in nothing but their socks
Destroy all religions and churches
Ban English as the language, anywhere. Force all to learn the glorious mother language: русский!
OWS, you guys are weak. The real list of demands should be as follows:
Release all convicts into mostly rich neighborhoods after confiscating everyone's guns
Institute 1 hour work days 9 months paid vacation 3 months unpaid vacation (but employee will be allowed to use unemployment benefits at that time)
Lower the retirement age to 12
Raise the minimum wage to $1000 a minute
Unlimited unemployement benefits
Obama, supreme ruler of the world immediately
All children should attend one school in one classroom taught by nancy pelosi
Anyone caught saying the word "God" or "Jesus" within a 3000 mile radius of any american citizen, will be sent to antarctica in nothing but their socks
Destroy all religions and churches
Ban English as the language, anywhere. Force all to learn the glorious mother language: русский!
This people are the drudges of society and want everything for free. they are overgrown children and absolute idiots their list of demands is hysterical! Should be written in crayon. They should add " every person gets a snack pack and milk after lunch" God those demands are absolutely retarded, like them! They all dont deserve to even be in this country for their pure stupidity. "Immediate debt forgiveness for all." AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. A.K.A I AM LAZY , WHAT LOSERS ! and anyone that sides with them is a complete idiot too!
Looks like you guys have been drinkin' the koolaid...! Sure, let's raise the min wage to $18/hr...even for first time workers! 6 weeks pd vacation? Open immigration? Fabulous ideas, kids! Because that will REALLY improve the state of this country. What's that sound I hear? The rest of the jobs moving overseas? Score. Please someone take an econ course - and tack on a sociology class while you're at it. And STOP drinking the koolaid and do some real investigating here before publishing such an inane list of 'demands'. We all know "End the War on Drugs" would have been listed much higher had you not been trying to be ows correct, btw.
If you want to really accomplish something, rent (yes, I said RENT) one of those abandoned buildings and set up a job skills training center to help people prepare themselves for better jobs. Add a food bank, clothes closet, community gathering spot, shelter, etc. Anyone can carry a sign and party in a tent - it's much harder to actually DO something that will help people. Contribute something!
Just a couple reasons why everyone in Occupy should either get a job or go to class...
"Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately" that is the definition of communism.
"Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality." Yeah lets just throw 20 bucks per hour at people who clean toilets. bullshit.
"Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation." This isn't 19th century utopian literature, this is the real world.
"Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately." Award people for not paying their mortgages or sucking at their jobs? Nay.
"Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws." See Civil Rights Act of 1964. Maybe if you all went to your social movement or history class, you would've heard about this as the result of the civil rights movement, a successful movement with a PURPOSE.
"Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US." This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. We should adopt New Zealand's immigration policy.
"Create a single-payer, universal health care system." This is the only not-stupid thing I've read so far.
"Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers." The reason why campaigns don't already have equal funding is because they don't have equal support. equal funding by the taxpayers means that some taxpayers might end up indirectly funding a candidate they don't support.
"Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%, (and) Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich." These both add up to a 95% tax on the rich. Morons.
"Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws." I agree completely.
"Allow workers to elect their supervisors." Not a bad idea.
"Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits." Social Security now no longer works. Too many of our citizens are old. It may have worked in the depression with FDR, but this isnt the 40's. Our population then wasn't 300 million, it was more like 160 million. And having everyone retire at an earlier age means the younger generation will have to take care of them longer.
"Ban the private ownership of land." This country was founded on the principles of "life, liberty, and PROPERTY". Suggesting to change that is like suggesting to redefine what it means to be an American.
"Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda." Oh really? This claim is entirely outrageous. Unless you can prove that Venus and Serena Williams are religious fanatics...
"Reduce the age of majority to 16." Yup, just add more uninformed and rebellious teens to the voting population. That'll make everything better.
"Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons." Definitely. Let's just let Ted Bundy live with his family. After all, what did he do wrong? Murder and rape like 30 women? If I was the parents of one of those women, I'd definitely want that guy to live comfortably in a nice prison. #sarcasm
"Release all political prisoners immediately." Name one other than the Cuban Five. Oh and it's funny, isn't Cuba a Communist country...?
"Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan." Agreed.
"Abolish the debt limit." Isn't one of Occupy's million goals to REDUCE government spending?
"Ban private gun ownership." ...So that when a criminal has stolen a gun and comes into your house and threatens your family, you can't do anything.
"Strengthen the separation of church and state." ...Or eliminate the church. The only time Catholicism makes the news is when ones of its priests diddles an altar boy.
"Immediate debt forgiveness for all." So all the homeless people and those who are unemployed can go out and buy anything and everything they want, like houses, cars, clothing, and luxury items, accumulate thousands in debt, and then have it all washed away? What a great way to destroy the already crippled economy.
"End the 'War on Drugs'." By bringing it within our boundary lines? Opening the border to illegal immigrants will bring that war onto our own turf even more. Great idea."
Socialism doesn't work! #falloftheussr
I generally support OWS, but you will NOT take away my right to homeschool my children. I will not have my children socialized into this bastardized world's standards.
OWS is mostly an urban movement right now. I think it is time to include some rural voices. Many working poor live well outside urban/suburban areas. Banning homeschooling and gun ownership is a major hurdle for them. Restoring some sort of commons instead of massive land holdings might be a point to make when we talk about banning private ownership of land. I'd like to add that critique instead of criticism is a lot more productive, friends. Contribute to the discussion rather than criticize.
There is already a country that meets many of these demands above. It is the workers paradise known as the DPRK. I would advise going there and setting up shop. You will soon realize that what you're asking for leads to total and complete government control.
You guys are smoking too much dope up there. Or someone is being funny. This is so totally over the top that I think some conservative thinker must have posted this to make the OWS'ers look like idiots.
You will NEVER cause the change I believe you are trying to affect unless you define your premise in ways that everyone can support you and in a way that revolutionary change can occur. Tackle TRUE CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM. Demand laws that state that a politician CANNOT accept or spend ANY contribution that does not come from a citizen that he or she would represent. Even push for a Constitutional Amendment. Everyone would join you on this.
I'm glad this is not and official statement. It's pretty funny though.
Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%. AND Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich. WTH??? Which is 90% or 5%. Heck why not just tax them at 95%???
The most heartening portion of the list above is that its propagated by individuals who have no ability to affect social change. God help us all if anyone with any power did this. I earned my spot in society. At 22, I have a house, a car, a good paying job, a top college education, and a firearm. I was homeschooled, am not religious, and have moderate political beliefs. This list is communist redistribution and socialism at its finest. It removes any semblance of a citizens personal responsibility, and encourages irrational and dangerous behavior by forgiving debt. Not to mention, it would certainly destroy our economy. The occupy wall street movement had some small chance to make a difference by reaching out to young, successful moderates who will are the leaders of the future. Certainly the government is inept and needs some reforms. These reforms should reduce the size of government, promote transparency, and create a legal system which promotes entrepreneurialship, business development, higher education, scientific research, while reducing the wealth disparity. Mandating wage caps and using the government to steal from the rich accomplish NONE of these goals. Unfortunately, the movement has banished itself to the outskirts of reasonable thought by proposing an asinine, illogical, and dangerous set of reforms. The educated, middle class, politically moderate section of society which you need in order to enact any reforms are generally alienated by this sort of ideological extremism. Unfortunately, we are also the very people you need to win over to make any meaningful changes.
this sounds like communism to me. Apparently it didn't work out too well. If you think business is cozy with Gov't now, just wait until you give a bunch of numbnut politicians as much power as you are proposing. That's how we ended up with a bunch of people who shouldn't have ever been allowed to borrow money to buy a house. How are you going to fuel ambition with policies like this? how are you going to fuel innovation? vill ze stadt do it? I don't think so. Who gets to judge, who is very rich? If this is what you want, I suggest you treat the computer you just wrote this on very well, because it will likely be the end of the couldesac for innovation.
Actually, the vast majority of these propositions will destroy individual rights. What should actually happen is this:
Constitutional Amendment to remove the commerce clause (Which is the incentive for corporate control of government)
Constitutional amendment explicitly recognized the right to life in the bill of rights (which is the right which ALL other individual rights are derived from. Without it the others cannot stand).
Constitutional Amendment to explicitly state the purpose of government as the protection of Individual Rights.
Recycled Leftist/Marxist Post.....woomp woomp! Recycled Leftist/Marxist Post...woomp woomp!
Reduce the age of majority to 16 for what reason? You got a thing for young kids?
While reforms need to be made in the justice system, there is a need to keep certain people in prison or to execute them. Ted Bundy for example... If he was still alive, and a numbskull like you nade the rules, he'd be back on the street killing all of the 16 year olds you wish you could shag because they were legal... (like they'd have anything to do with a no job loser...)
Please identify the political prisoners you wish to be released. We don't have any.
Abolish the debt limit? As soon as you abolish mine... Heck... we don't need money anyway. We can trade pebbles or shells... How many shells equal $18/hr? Maybe barter for trade. Right? What useful items do you produce, or service can you provide in order to procure the services you require in everyday life? None? Darn... That'll suck for you... If we had standard currency and a functioning government, we could give you some cash till you developed some ability to be a productive member of society. Until then, you'll just have to hang out in the park and rely on the kindness of strangers...
How much stronger can the seperation of church and state be? Maybe we can just ban all religion... Yea... Taht'll make everyone more free...
Debt frogiveness for all. Serious? Are you that stupid? What do you think would happen if no one had to pay their debts? No Banks. No loans. That would mean no student loans. For you that would be wasted money anyway, but for others, a student loan would be a good investment. That would mean businesses would fail. Your parents would lose thei income, then who's basement would you live in? Businesses wouldn't be able to sell products, like the computer you types this idiocy on. That may actually benefit our society.
Make home schooling illegal? If you got your education from public schools, then you are a poster boy for why home schooling is needed. Without educated people to earn a living and provide for morons like you, you would have to hang out in a park and depend on the kindness of strangers... OH you do that now... Yea...
Far stricter env and animal rights laws? There are no "Laws". They are regulations under the executive branch. Go back to school.
Allow worker to elect suprevisors? If you enact half of the ideas you have, their will be no businesses, therefore, no labor. We'll be back to hunting and gathering, which will be illegal under you stricter animal rights "laws".
Lower retiement age to 55 and increase SS benefits? If you reduce the work day to 6 hrs a day, and reduce the working weeks to 46 per year, the you have reduced production. Plus you've increased the cost of labor to $18/hr, so most 55 year olds won't even have a job. Who's gonna pay the money to cover the increased SS benfits?
If there are no private land owners, then who owns the land? The government? if the government owns the land, manufactures and has the guns, and controls who runs for office, and who gets health care, what does that make you? A powerless slave.
Some of your post, I agree with. Some make me believe that you need to go take Govt 101 and Econ 101 and Business 101...
Lets see...
Unionize all workers immediately... This will accomplish what? Wouldn't this give ultimate power to a group of unelected people, who would control the future of those who are the labor force? I thought that was what we have now...
Minimum wage to $18/hr? I used to run a small business. We delivered pizza. Labor costs for my business was approx 13%. Do you really want to pay $27 for a small pizza? No you wouldn't, so the small businesses will go out of business. Then what? More unemployed... I'm not even going to touch the $90/hr maximum wage... Unenforcable.
6 hour work day and 6 weeks off paid vacation. Who pays for this? Where will the money come from? Does this mean four shifts?
moratorium on all foreclosure and layoffs. I like it on the surface, but who's gonna pay for it? If businesses can't pay folks and can't lay off folks, then businesses go out of business... Then everyone doesn't have a job. if banks stop foreclosures, then folks live in homes they don't pay for. Then banks don't get paid. Banks don't have money to loan and/or go out of business. Others can't borrow to buy homes. Homes can't sell. Homes don't get built. Houses don't get built. Construction workers lose jobs. Landscapers lose jobs. I could go on, but why.
Open borders... If there are no businesses, because they went out of business when they couldn't lay people off, and couldn't get loans because the banks went out of business, and there is no construction work... Why would they want to be here anyway... Heck... We may go to Mexico, where illegal immigration will cost you 10 years in prison if they don't shoot you.
Single Payer universal health Care... That's working great for Britain, Canada, and the rest of Europe... Where does the money come from?
While I like the idea of campaign reform, banning private donations restricts MY freedom of speech. I don't think I want to give my free speech to the government. Government that controls campaign $ controls who can run... That means the governmwnt decides who controls you.
Tax the rich 90%? I thought you'd limit everyone to $90/hr max... What the heck is your definition of rich?
While this list is raw and I disagree with some of these suggestions, it is necessary to start thinking of plausible demands.
Everyone is encouraged to formulate their own list, preferably also with a rationale to explain the concept, and in that manner good ideas will show up and the best ideas can be selected for development.
Is this the official list?
Why was my previous comment removed? All I want to know is if this list is for real? And if it isn't, is there a list anywhere that shows the demands that these protesters are making? I find this list to be rather unbelievable.
There is a great deal of DIALOGUE needed on these thread!!! Calling someone a socialist is meaningless and it says that you probably do not read or have been watching Fox news too often.
A human being can NEVER be free by owning a gun. WHEN a human being lives in poverty or scarcity or without a proper PUBLIC safety Net, then you become vulnerable to be exploited and abused! This is what Neoliberalism loves, to exploit workers and accumulate wealth at the top. THEREFORE, it is essential to have a hefty PUBLIC safety Net as MOST industrialized countries have! This prevents people from being exploited and abused.
WHEN the US became a world power, the US started charging a 76% Marginal Tax rate and during Eisenhower it charged up to 91% ...QUESTION: Were we a communist nation then??? Of course NOT! The state needs funding for social programs. Otherwise and how we are today, there are no civil or social program protections that can shield human beings from being exploited, this is also known as pathological masochism!
NOW, please ask yourself: WHERE would we go for a redress of grievances if we continue privatizing??? Goldman Sachs? BP or any of the other Corporations not paying taxes for the past ten years???
BTW, WHAT do I do with a gun if I am poor and I can't find a job??? Rob a bank and go to prison??? Put salt & pepper and eat my gun??? Stick it where the sun don't shine???
DIALOGUE means to grab any issue and ask WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHEN, HOW, and every other imaginable and unimaginable question int he pursuit of TRUTH...instead of perpetuating what one already believes...ONE should always and ONLY pursuit truth! WHAT is truth? Truth is that very thin line between one's limited perceptions and the world and reality!
The US spends 100 times more than any other industrialized nations and we have NOTHING to show our expenses for because we have wasted money bailing failed corporations and war and tax breaks to wealthy individuals who do not need any breaks instead of investing in our own people!
http://www.unnaturalcauses.org/interactivities_04-7.php
While I appreciate your ability to formulate an argument, your premise is crap. I have been on every continent, and the US is by far the greatest nation. We have our problems, but the poorest here are rich by the standards of many in most other countries. I may not be free by owning a gun, but I definitely will never be a slave. Together with other like minded believers in freedom, I will remain free, while people who follow the precepts of this list of demands will be slaves to a government that owns and controls all.
Your response is ludicrous...you have been to every country? You do not even sound like you passed third grade with that freedom Fox news argument..." US is by far the greatest nation" no need to go to far to see that you ignored 100% of my arguments. Whenever you engage some form of dialogue, respond, I will gladly answer...spare me the right wing gun ownership propaganda for now! We have enough masochists and ignorant people in the US by far and I do not think we do not need anymore! You can't dialogue! WHERE is your argument and comparison beyond SHORT bites of ignorance??? Nowhere to be found in that microscopic response!!!
Is this list legit? If not, is there anywhere I can find a real list of what the protesters are demanding?
"Sweepers, Sweepers, man your brooms. Give the ship a clean sweep down both fore and aft! Sweep down all lower decks, ladder wells and passageways! Dump all garbage clear of the fantail! Sweepers." Most ships actually discourage throwing of trash over the side but instead use mulch/pulp rooms. In port, "Dump all garbage clear of the fantail" is replaced with "Dump all garbage in dumpsters provided for on the pier."
Here is my list of equally ridiculous demands:
kill all the homeless, enslave those earning minimum wage, Colonize Iraq, Remove all foreign aid, Remove Social Security, Halt all medicaid, and Make gun ownership mandatory
The reason why the majority of wall street is incredibly wealthy is the fact that they are working 120 hour weeks while you spend your time bitching for 6 hour work weeks
Hmm..Wait this sounds familiar...Yes ok I remember that book...The Communist Manifesto yes that it...I know you people didn't learn anything in school cause you have been brainwashed by the establishment but communism has murdered more people in history than all the wars of the 20th century. Perhaps you do not know that Stalin (he was a communist in charge of the the Soviet Union) killed over 20 MILLION of his own people..Mao Zedongs regime killed over 40 MILLION people in communist China..And how about modern day communism??? Check out Lisa Ling's documentary on North Korea if you don't believe me #http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxLBywKrTf4 I hope you will consider and become educated to the extreme dangers of communism. Whatever shortfalls capitalism has it pales in comparison to communism.
Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately. --> because what exactly do unions do, anyway? Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality. --> i'll get this one below. Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation. --> cause those lazy ass hobos don't want to work. Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately. --> banks go bankrupt. brilliant! Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws. --> cause the english language is a race. and do you even know what xenophobia is, or is that your attempt at using a multisyllabic word, OWS? Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US. --> who will then go and take your $18/hour job. Create a single-payer, universal health care system. --> i'll do this, if OWS is the single payer Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers. --> sorry, i'm not paying for something i don't support. that's part of the whole "freedom" thing that our constitution supports. Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%. --> negative income tax? do we mean give money to the poor? isn't that socialism? Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws. --> that i can be okay with, depending on what they are Allow workers to elect their supervisors. --> will their elections and campaigns be publically funded as well? i have an idea, let's go to school for 6 years to be able to hold supervisory positions, only to lose them in a popularity race. nice job, five-year-olds. Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits. --> and how are we going to pay for these? so basically, you want to work fewer hours, less time of the year, for less of your life. Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich. --> is this on top of the 90% tax rate, cause that's 95%... and of their $90/hr job, they're really making now...hmm... 5% of $90... uh... $4.50/hr. that's lower than the current minimum wage. morons. basically, the poor become rich and the rich become poor? that'll fix our society Ban the private ownership of land. --> DEFINITION OF SOCIALISM, RIGHT? everyone shares everything. idiots Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda. --> cause the girl who's constantly being bullied because she's not the size of a stick needs to stay in the school where the bullying occurs, instead of using the PUBLIC, SECULAR HOMESCHOOLING OPTION THAT ALREADY EXISTS. Reduce the age of majority to 16. --> only if the draft is enacted again, and all of you morons can be shipped overseas to know what the world is really like Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons. --> cause, you know, you didn't really mean to murder that guy, did you? Release all political prisoners immediately. --> cause, you know, death-to-america doesn't still happen. Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. --> we did that before. it's called VIETNAM Abolish the debt limit. --> that's what a 16 year old does, right. spends money they don't have to get whatever they want, not even thinking about the repercussions. Ban private gun ownership. --> cause the people who use guns to shoot others really take the steps to own the guns they use... Strengthen the separation of church and state. --> the only thing "separation of church and state" actually means is that there is no official state religion of the USA. Immediate debt forgiveness for all. --> so that you can go and run up the credit cards all over again End the 'War on Drugs'. --> so that you can use the cards you're going to run up on the drugs that you want.
No wonder you lazy fucking idiots can't get a goddamned job.
Additionally, whoever authored this document is only aware of short term gains. Let us for an instance imagine that all of these absurd dreams were granted. Corporations would move ALL of their employees oversees. Wealthy individuals would leave the country for greener pastures, thereby also removing jobs. No high school aged student or kid would hired because they cannot possible justify earning $18 an hour. Political prisons would be free to roam the country, with lax boarder patrol as if that didn't invite additional acts of terrorism. 16 year old, uneducated individuals would have the right to smoke, drink and more importantly vote, which is less than insightful. And then there are things like campaign finance reform and foreclosure regulation? I'm going to be a lot of money that the person who wished to institute these rules knows nothing about either topic. If we are looking forward to a communistic, socialist society, then by all means, Occupy Wall Street should go occupy Cuba, or China, or Russia or a Eastern European nation. Educate yourselves prior to saying things which jeopardize and discount your purpose, because with posts like this, your cause becomes laughable.
Lets allow our debt to spiral out of control by giving benefits to lazy workers and terrorists. Fuck you socialist pig move somewhere else if you can't cope with the fact that some people make way more money than you. Oh wait, you would rather live in America anyways.
You people are idiots. You really are. And you should be ashamed of yourselves. What you are seeking is the suspension of reality. Your list of "demands" would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic (and frightening). Where did you come from? Go back there, and take a shower.
My guess is that you are around 16 years old. Otherwise, I'm sorry for you. Please take a course in economics and realize that your demands would bankrupt this country. The "Utopia" you describe is unattainable now and perhaps forever. Furthermore, the immature categorization of the "wealthy" and homeschoolers is offensive and intolerant. There are corrupt and greedy wealthy people, just as there are corrupt and greedy poor people. Many people homeschool because the public school system is a joke in this country. Perhaps they are just trying to keep our nation competetive? Look through the drug fueled haze and educate yourself. You'll find that your opinions change and that you may also become more successful.
Lets increase our debt by giving benefits to lazy workers and terrorists. Move somewhere else if you don't like it here you socialist pig.
You say you want a revolution Well you know We'd all want to change the world You tell me that it's evolution Well you know We'd all want to change the world But when you talk about destruction Don't you know that you can count me out Don't you know it's gonna be alright [x3]
You say you got a real solution Well you know We'd all want to see the plan You ask me for a contribution Well you know We're all doing what we can But if you want money for people with minds that hate All I can tell you is brother you'll have to wait Don't you know it's gonna be alright [x4]
You say you'll change the constitution Well you know We'd all love to change your head You tell me it's the institution Well you know You better free your mind instead But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow Don't you know know it's gonna be alright [x3] Alright [x7]
this is a joke right? who is going to pay for all of this?
99% of the protesters are unemployed by "CHOICE" or work from home and are still collecting their more than likely very high salary. That is an opinion as I do not have time to follow the circus OWS because I am WORKING! If you want something, work for it. If you don't want to work, deal with the choice you have made. If you can't play by the rules that are now in place you have no right to try to change the rules through any other means than your right to vote. If you tax the rich at 90% with an additional wealth tax of 5% then there will be nobody left to hire people at 18 to 90 dollars an hour. To the occupants, EARN YOUR KEEP like the rest of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't like it here, GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously get out of my country! Go to a socalist country you liberal/communist pigs. For goodness sake these demands are horrid. You want to make getting an education obsolete and just give every lazy person with their hand out exactly what you want.
I thought for one moment that OWS had a positive end result in ind, but honestly after reading these demands i think your all throwing shi* at a fan hoping rose petals will come out the other side. I actually only agree with one and that is debt forgivemess, but i dont think anyone should be forgiben of debt they knowingly created but i do believe that everyone should have a one in a lifetime chance to have their credit reports cleared. to get a chance to start over. as for everything else, it is unrealistic, unattainable (without full economic and socila failure nationwide), and unless you plan to alter most state constituions and the national constiution wont ever happen. Beside all that i think you underestimate the apathy of the people in this nation and of course you will overtime alienate the very people you wish to have on your side. Just my 2 cents
I thought for one moment that OWS had a positive end result in ind, but honestly after reading these demands i think your all throwing shi* at a fan hoping rose petals will come out the other side. I actually only agree with one and that is debt forgivemess, but i dont think anyone should be forgiben of debt they knowingly created but i do believe that everyone should have a one in a lifetime chance to have their credit reports cleared. to get a chance to start over. as for everything else, it is unrealistic, unattainable (without full economic and socila failure nationwide), and unless you plan to alter most state constituions and the national constiution wont ever happen. Beside all that i think you underestimate the apathy of the people in this nation and of course you will overtime alienate the very people you wish to have on your side. Just my 2 cents
Tim- Nice concept. But imagine if you employer decides that his debt to you for the wages you earned should be his one chance... debt forgiveness is a nice idea, but would destroy the economy.
I hope they start with your very last demand first and end the war on drugs. Hopefully, if you are just allowed to take your drugs, you will loose the motivation to write the rest of this nonsense.
Where is repealing the Bush Tax Cuts?
Okay, I'm for some of these things but some of it seems to be tacked on by the same people who've been trying to pass some of these laws for awhile now. such as "Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws"? really?be nice. but why? that's an opening point for the government to start taking away all thing words we can still say in America. and open the borders to ALL Immigrants. why? I thought we wanted more jobs? fast jobs now for all people willing to work. If we just open the gates and let everyone in. where are they going to work? now this one can be fixed with a little help. How about we fix the border laws in place right now? they work, well they did before we the people let the government change or "Add On" what ever they wanted with the help of The Patriot Act. trim the fat from these programs and see what happens. next the gun thing... fuck that! I like owning mine, like Chris Rock says "Make the bullets cost a shit ton more and no more wasted bullets hitting the public. and the War Of Drugs. Can't win it. they make way to much money by having it be illegal. nearly 2 million American minor drug offenders are incarcerated in the prison system of the U.S. The percentage of Americans in the prison system has doubled since 1985. wonder why? that's when the War on Drugs started. it's a money making monster that we've let happen. and I am Deeply saddened by it. It's the end of time for us. all great empires fall. mainly because of politics and bickering. by the time we have made these changes to America it will be to late.
Finally, the OWS-crowd have a list of demands. I hope everyone finds out about this list. This is the idealism of the left, the progressives, the group in power. I can't imagine any country today that would or could endorse any of these demands. But it's good to be clear about who is making those demands. Thank you OWS
Homeschooling is also used by families with gifted children and children with learning disabilities who cannot find solutions within their local, public school systems. Whoever wrote this knows nothing about homeschooling except the cliche.
Many of these demands are completely unrealistic. Who wrote this list?
Sorry, these proposals are no more ridiculous than the ones being taken by the right wing, Congress and the 1%. You have to look at it of a complete reversal of what has been done to most people in this country. Wow, chill out!
you really should remove this SHIT from the forum it tarnishes the name of this movement and makes us all look like complete idiots. this is not the message we want to be sending. that is all.
I think censorship could be a dangerous move, but it should be noted that this post has definitely garnered a lot of attention. Found a link to this post on the #OWS twitter stream from a news source reporting the document as an "official list of demands."
Though I think it would be ridiculous of them to assume that a list of demands this extreme could be birthed from a group who I assume would require unanimity (horizonalism and all)? Obviously not a very learned reporter..
I don't even think I need to address how ridiculous this is, and I'm hardly even sure I'd know where to start. One of the more shocking suggestions: Opening the borders completely. Why do you think there are borders in the first place? To keep people out who want to do us harm or conduct illegal activity. Opening up the borders would, among countless other things, allow the drug and human traffickers to run straight in and continue poisoning society with its respective vices for sale (then again, based on the last suggestion, End the 'War on Drugs', maybe that's just part of the master plan). And then there's the outlawing of homeschooling. It makes me angry enough when people tell me what I should and shouldn't do with my own money, but if I had a child and the state told me that they know what's best for my kid's education more than I do, because they're afraid I'll indoctrinate him/her with religious propaganda (a huge and false assumption), my rage would make the money issue pale in comparison. I don't even think I need to mention others like the ending of private ownership of land, which is the result of one of two kinds of rulership: communism or feudalism, neither of which have done so well historically. This list is a joke, and like I mentioned in a different comment, unless some leader emerges to actually make sense of all the random demands and complaints that I see and hear, this person will lead many to assume that he represents all of you, and who can blame them? No one else seems to want to speak up.
Give us Michigan! Its broken already. We can fix it. We can make it the workers utopia we all dream of! MICHIGAN! MICHIGAN! MICHIGAN! We can be free in Michgan!
Lets us have Michigan. Its broken and already has a fairly open minded population. We will build a workers utopia free of all the crony capatilism. We can be free in Michigan!
I was horrified when I stumbled upon this, because I thought it was an "official" agreed-upon OWS list of demands, but it's lovely to see that it's just one person's list. Make homeschooling illegal? Ban private gun ownership? Seriously? NOBODY is going to be on board with this. I'm certainly not, and I'm a very progressive person who believes in strong unions, universal health care, ending the wars, etc. Good lord, I don't want to live under your crazy version of a worker's paradise any more than I want to live under a corporatist state.
This is not an official post!
This is something a user randomly posted up!
Stop reading this, it is of no value what so ever!
These demands are complex and divisive. Instead, I’d suggest a simple demand that can garner broad support. I advocate a Constitutional Amendment to the effect that no profit making company shall contribute to a political campaign; pay for or publish advertising that seeks to persuade voters in favor of or against any candidate or political issue; or contribute to any other organization that seeks to persuade voters.
is this a spoof?
Fortunately the Occupy Wall Street movement is largely made up of ordinary people who don't give a damn about the left wing agenda. They want to see tighter regulations in place for banks and investment firms who repeatedly screw ordinary people over and over again. If these left wing schmucks want to tag along for the ride, they can, but they aren't going to do the driving. Ironically enough they make up about 1% of 99% taking a stand against greed and corruption. These ridiculous demands only serve to distract from the very real issues of greed and corruption on Wall Street and in Washington (Note the utter failure to address these issues in any meaningful way). The above non-sense ironically ultimately serves those same Wall Street interests by destroying the credibility of what this movement stands for.
Well at least someone is making some demands. All that is mentioned here is fairly innocuous though. None really address what is the real problem now with the USA and with the rest of the West, generally. The real problem is, the contradiction between the advanced state of its productive forces and the redundant form of its social relations has become critical. The productive forces have this enormous capacity that is massively under utilized because the redistribution of wealth upwards that defines capitalism has accelerated to the point where effective demand is skewed to the indulgences of the rich. When capitalism is at its best it uses the demand of the general population to develop productive forces. Where it is at its best now is in China and India. Capitalism is good for a developing economy but it has a use-by-date. It eventually becomes a retardant on economic development. It is an accelerant for a developing economy and a retardant for an advanced economy. But note, it is always oppression. An indication of how much of an oppression it is can be seen in most of the comments made to the above posted demands: so many are so addicted to the cretinism it requires to survive in capitalism they have to convince themselves thought is a waste of time. None of the above demands are revolutionary, none really threaten the system. None will cause the systemic change that is needed for the US to maintain its position in the world. They should be criticized for their innocuousness but all that came was petulance.
Communists are attempting to hijack the Occupy movement. This is purely a bogus posting.
America has many unpopulated island chains within its territorial waters. The "1 per centers" ( aka employable, sober, and showered ) among us need to ensure these archipelagos are filled with these reatarded as%^*les. I would be agreeable to allow each island occupier a ration of one pound of weed and a female goat. I pity the goat.
Don't give them a goat. Bestiality is just wrong.
America has many unpopulated island chains within its territorial waters. The "1 per centers" ( aka employable, sober, and showered ) among us need to ensure these archipelagos are filled with these reatarded as%^*les. I would be agreeable to allow each island occupier a ration of one pound of weed and a female goat. I pity the goat.
I tried to read this manifesto out loud but couldn't because of the foul taste in was putting in my mouth. This is an recipe of destruction from within.
Strengthen the separation of church and state? Where do we even have that in law now? Don't say in the first amendment because you'd be wrong! Ban on private gun ownership, you people are freakin' crazy. How 'bout stop sponging off our tax money get a skill worth more than "you want fries with that" and do something meaningful with yourselves instead of imposing this Marxist trash. Just think I supported the movement until I saw this, pitiful indeed.
I think they are all on crack I don't see any of this getting done. If you want something like this you will need to leave this country and go to china or maybe North Korea would work for you. That way when you want to protest they will just shoot you in the head.
What pipe are you people smoking?? Get out if you aren't happy! There are plenty of people that would love to live in our country and get a job!!
Why don't you stupid fucks go home or go look for a job or something. I hope you all freeze your fuckin asses off out in the cold. Stay out there and get sick and then see if OBAMA or any of those other fucks in DC give a damn about you.
I'm going to try to approach this objectively like my name says from the perspective of a "Fly on The Wall." I've numbered my answers according to the list above from top to bottem
I support Unions and I'm a Union member and am in training to become a Union Steward to repesent the employees of the State of CA. Dept. I work for. Neverthless I also support the right of any business entity to choose to not be unionized.
I'm not certain that this is feasable and I wonder if this would eliminate oportunities for High School Students and other first time worker's to obtain jobs and job training. I think that here is some good in the proposal, but it needs to be thought through more.
I don't see how a 6 hour workday is a reasonable demand. However, I'd like to see/hear/participate in further discussion on this.
4.This again I beleive needs to be discussed further as IMO there should be circumstantial exceptions.
I'm not sure that as written I agree. For instance I do not believe Government departments or even Businesses should be required to pay to have things written in other languages. I also beleive that if someone is in this country if they need an interpreter it should be on their dime. IMO there are exceptions to this such as the U.S. Immigration Sevice. However, State DMV offices should not have to pay to have documents written in the languages of every immigrant. I have no phobias about immigrants coming into this nation and nor do I beleive that to be citizens here they have to leave their culture behind to become citizens.
IMO there has to be some kind of legal immigration process that is fair and equitable to all, but open our borders to everyone who wants to come in without some type of proceedures to insure our nations security from terrorists and criminals would be foolish.
I don't agree with is comepletely. I beleive that all Americans should have access to health care. However, I also beleive in the right of individuals to choose how they are going to recieve it. There should be opportunity to opt out of Universal Health Care for a private plan.
This I'd like to read or discuss further, as I really do not want my taxes paying for political campains, however I do beleive that all donations groups of any kind whether businesses, non-profits, unions, etc. should be against the law.
This I think has some merrit, but at the same time I do not want to support dead beats who simply choose not to work. However, I'm all for helping those who cannot help themselves or for reasons beyond their control have experienced misfortune. Nevetheless sorry for using this term I just can't think of another I do not want us to become a welfare state or socialist society where there is no incentive for hard work, further education, etc.
8 This I do not beleive should be part of what we are fighting for I believe it is outside what the focus should be on. I'm all for reasonable evironmentalism and animal rights however, I think there are some things that are proposed by some groups that are over the top. Saying that I personally through the Fly Fishing Club that I belong to fight for reasonable laws and engage in clean up and restoration projects.
I believe there is some merrit for this or something like it within Government, purhaps even in some private sector settings.
I Agree!
I'm not sure that this is fair and equitable as it does seem to penalize someone for wealth.
This is not even worth dignifying for discussion. We are not communist or even worse and this could lead to some really negative things for everyone.
Just because, some fanatics use something to promote stupidity doesn't mean we should take peoples right to educate their own children away. That's like saying the internet should be outloud, because fanatics use it to promote their thoughts and ideas.
This is simply stupid it must have come from a 16-year-old or someone who has never parented children.
I beleive in the death penalty, because I do not want to pay for muders, rapists, molesters, arsenists, or pediphiles to be in prison and do not want them living next to me either.
I disagree this should be considered on a case by case basis by an independent party that has no vested interest in keeping them.
I agree!
This I would need to discuss further.
This I in no way agree with.
I'm not sure what is meant be this, however I do beleive religious organizations not qualify as non-profits.
Immediate debt forgiveness for all. Perhaps a one time deal.
End the 'War on Drugs'. I disagree, but I believe that Marijuana should be legalized nationally.
You simply can't be serious.
This is ridiculous!! I'm fifteen years old and can clearly see whats wrong with this and the damage it would cause to our country!!! This would just be a giant disaster resulting in massive inflation, the destruction of half of our constitutional rights, and a ton of really angry Americans!! I for one do not want to even think of raising my family in a country like that. Wondering why I care and know so much about politics? It's because I'm HOME SCHOOLED.
How about:
Demands?! Lower Manhattan has seen enough terrorism already. I thought you were protesters? If so, look up what the definition of a protest is.
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Look at it from a natural standpoint. Self preservation is a human right, but it is also human nature to be greedy and self-absorbed, and by no means does the wealth of the upper 1% save them from this. Although free market capitalism can be an efficient way of exchanging/distributing goods and services, and wall street & big business claim to be champions of efficiency, huge corporations are not natural. You create significant problems when you get too big, when you hoard a majority of the resources -- efficiency actually starts to decrease among other things. The environment can only sustain the big fish for so long... then it's only a matter of time before everything breaks down. This is also true of cells in the body. What happens when cells start growing out of control -- it's called cancer and it's deadly. There is another alternative to big business besides socialism -- it involves creating an atmosphere where small businesses can truly thrive and improve our overall state of life. How do we get there? I don't know. There would have to be some control on the size and scope of power of any one entity, but it would have to come from individuals and not the government. It must become part of our social/cultural DNA. If someone could document the characteristics and effects of these (financially/economically) cancerous cells (i.e. big businesses) to the point where it becomes common knowledge, and find a "cure" (i.e. preventing anyone from wanting to build such empires out of a desire not to harm the "body") -- we may be getting somewhere. Then again, in nature you always have random distributions which means there will be outliers who want to have more toys than anyone else.
While I think we sort of agree on some fundamental issues, you cannot prove that people are good or bad by nature. Humans have a large amount of mental elasticity. We can, contrary to popular belief, change. We are also capable of forming peaceful, loving and co-operative relationships, usually called communities. So this at least basically negates the idea that humans are fundamentally greedy.
Humans can learn new things on purpose. This is proof that you can change your mind. Humans can also build their muscles and lose fat on purpose. This is proof that you can change not only your mind, but your entire body.
We have the capacity for both greed and generosity, and I would argue that given that generosity and co-operation are universally preferred behaviors, that we should choose generosity and co-operation. We can start by giving every human all the love and support and basic high quality necessities for life, such as good clean organic non-GMO food and clean water. Children raised by abusive families tend to make abusive parents. Children raised with love and kindness tend to be loving and kind. Even humans who are jaded and greedy can change.
It will take a lot of love, but it is possible. Just imagine.
Clearly the .009%.
You are being overly generous with your stat. This would imply over 31,000 people believe this nonsense. I would tend to believe that stat is closer to reality if that was .009% out of the number of OWS protesters there are. However, even if only one person believes this list, that is scary.
Does no one teach civics in schools? Do you realize that if you take away guns (get rid of 2nd amendment) that it is the amendment which sees to it that all other constitutional rights can't fall too far?
Ok, i see the rest of this nonsense in this post now. I am sure falling for the trolls today. Hey, It was a nice day to sit in the park and hold a sign though.
Communist trash, get out of my country.
I dare you drugged out hippies come and try take our guns and our private property.
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Everyone please get the free kindle copy of "The Communist Manifesto" by Karl Marx from Amazon.com (free kindle app needed). You'll see where these ideas come from.
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Thinking of such a large and off topic list even seeing compromise would be insane. Gotta stick to the point of OWS, not turn it into some random various liberal act
Are you trying to be stupid or does that just come naturally?
oh wait this is user submitted... NOT SERIOUS EVERYONE
I didn't think the purpose of this movement was to attach itself to EVERY left wing agenda available. I thought it was simply about restoring DEMOCRACY. Maybe two or three of your points address this... Ironically, it would probably be best for the movement if this post was CENSORED.
agreed. while I sincerely wish a large number of the demands were carried out, I have to say I'm disappointed. with a laundry list like that it'll be harder to get people to join, people will leave, no one will take the movement seriously, and nothing will come of it. i'm an idealist and a dreamer, too, but it's time to be a little more rational and realistic if this movement is actually going to make any changes.
End The Fed!!!! Band aids won't permanently solve our problems. You need to cut out the source of the infection.
This sounds like pure Rousseauean coercion to me...that was a Bible for The French Revolution...and we all know how that ended.
Good luck living in your phony, idealized anarchist world, morons.
^^^ Spoken like a true bottom feeding loser. You guys are such hypocrites. You want to steal from those that are successful and lump every rich person as a thief, but become so indignant when one of your precious gutter rats steal on of your laptops or i-Pads from your tent. LOL!
What did you expect? They are your own kind! Just bottom feeders and freeloaders just like you!
You Occupy Douche lords really need to A.) Take a shower! B.) learn the difference between being unemployed and being unemployable because you are obviously the latter. And C.) learn that opportunity and entitlement are not the same thing.
It is always the same with you 'progressive' tards. You think that freedom means never being able to fail no matter what you do. LOL! And instead of actually working to better yourselves, you want to cry like a bunch of basement brats about how life is so unfair to you. BOO HOO!!!
Hey, tardmos! Life sucks, deal with it! Choose to be a victim or a survivor. The rich guy you think owes you something obviously chose to be a survivor. Losers like you choose to be victims to avoid any responsibility. So instead, you want to hurt others the way you ultimately hurt yourselves.
Open a history book, collectivism, communism/socialism have never worked, and they never will no matter how or where you implement them. All they do is lead to death, violence and oppression.
Now get a job, and get a life, loser!
We'll club all you stupid MFrs like baby seals in the spring.
We'll club all you stupid MFrs like baby seals in the spring.
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You forgot Pay people who cannot or will not work $1500 a week Subsidize the rents of the 99% Subsidize the food of the 99% College should be free for the 99% subsidize all mortgage loans for the 99% We can do this by taxing the 1% , they need to pay their fair share.
some of those makes sense and some are completely irrational
Jefferson was a total dick. Private ownership of land is such a bad idea, and needs to be gone now! While we're at it, lets get rid of the Bill of Rights too. Then by that point, we can just get rid of the constitution as a whole. That piece of trash hasn't helped anyone.
I REALLY hope that's sarcasm.
Ban private gun ownership???
"Molon Labe" azzholes.
This is also an example of OWS trying to have it both ways on the myths of leaderlessness, not making "demands," etc. This item was originally posted three weeks ago in a subforum, then boosted now by ... SOMEBODY.
"The OWS forums are censored into oblivion, does anyone know of another popular forum discussing this issue?"
My reply to the demands posted here
http://forums.macnn.com/95/political-war-lounge/452779/ows-demands/#post4129309
I found only maybe 5 I agree with.
End the 'War on Drugs'. Strengthen the separation of church and state. Abolish the debt limit. Abolish the death penalty Allow workers to elect their supervisors. Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers. Create a single-payer, universal health care system.
And min wage at $18.00 a hour would result in $25.00 Happy Meals, no thanx.
I want to know what the person was on when they wrote this list. If it's not illegal, it should be.
Fortunately the Occupy Wall Street movement is largely made of ordinary people who don't give a damn about the left wing agenda. They want to see tighter regulatory rules in place for banks and investment firms that repeatedly screw ordinary people over and over again. If these left wing schmucks want to tag along for the ride, they can, but they aren't going to do the driving. Ironically enough they make up about 1% of 99% taking a stand against greed and corruption. These ridiculous demands (and I would say "laughable", but they aren't remotely funny) only serve to distract from the very simple issues of greed and corruption on Wall Street and in Washington. The above non-sense ironically only ultimately serves those same Wall Street interests by destroying the credibility of what this movement stands for. These children need to be seen and not heard so the rest of the grown ups can fix this broken country.
I supported this movement...till now. I cant even begin to express my feeling of dissapointment that ''occupy'' has gone this way... Come take my guns (I hope you run faster than a bullet). I cant own my home or land ?!?!?!? (see above answer). Immediate debt forgiveness for all?? I have spent months defending that no one is asking for a handout..I guess I was wrong!! Unionize all workers?!?!? NEVER!!! Im not even going to go into how stupid the minimum wage thing is. Homeschooling is a GREAT thing. It gives parents a chance to teach their kids ''real'' history and things that will actually benefit them in life. Not getting brainwashed by the crappy school system we have now. ''Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.''!?!?!?!? One of the most horrible ideas Ive ever heard. I want mexican cartel killers walking down my street..yeah RIGHT!!! I could keep going but I think we can all see that this list isnt anything like the original one that I stood up for before.
Thes damands remind of what Pol Pot demanded of his people, and look how many people died. From what I'm reading of these demands, OWS wants a Civil War, well go ahead, force more of what has already damaged us on me by the means of State Control and please try a nd take my Guns, because when you do, don't forget there are over 30 million Gun owners in the USA and we not only view owning a firearm as a right, but as a human right.
Strengthen the separation of church and state? Where do we even have that in law now, and don't. Ban on private gun ownership, you people are freekin' crazy. How 'bout stop sponging off our tax money get a skill worth more than "you want fries with that" and do something meaningful with yourselves instead of impossing this Marxist trash. Pittiful site to behold. Just think I supported the movement until I saw this, pittiful indead.
Stop censoring my voice moderators Yeah... this movement is going to fail. there are so many flaws i can barely even fathom the depth of just how unreal and ridiculous this list is. i mean really; if i had the time i would write something more meaningful to refute these ideas but im just going to settle with this, there isnt any possible way this is coming to pass. Unless you could convince economists how establishing a price floor of $18 dollars an hour isnt going to create massive unemployment and shortages.(not to mention inflation) honestly, i thought the movement was made up of mostly college-educated young people.
Yeah... this movement is going to fail. there are so many flaws i can barely even fathom the depth of just how unreal and ridiculous this list is. i mean really; if i had the time i would write something more meaningful to refute these ideas but im just going to settle with this, there isnt any possible way this is coming to pass. Unless you could convince economists how establishing a price floor of $18 dollars an hour isnt going to create massive unemployment and shortages.(not to mention inflation) honestly, i thought the movement was made up of mostly college-educated young people.
These rules need to be modified. Sounds way too socialist
Their last demand: THE MARIJUANA AND CRACK PIPES TO BE COVERED BY THE SINGLE PAYER UNIVERSAL HEALTH INSURANCE.
Very few of these occupy bums have actually seen a day's work. Most are trust fund babies who know nothing else, but to whine. Go get a haircut, a bath, and look for a job. Or expatriate them all to Greenland and have them start their own country. Without an option to return here.
ok so at the top it clearly says "This content is user submitted and not an official statement" anybody can tell this is as fake as Obamas Birth Certificate. Im A Republican but realy how nieve people can be to believe something like this : /
it's still scary to see that even one person agrees with any of these ideas even if they are not generally held by the protestors, and even then, we still don't know what exactly they're protesting about.
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This list is so asinine, it can not possibly be real.
This is ridiculous. First, for one person to post a list of demands for an entire movement (based on equality and liberty), without the consent of at least half of the group, defeats the purpose of the movement entirely. Second, this awakening is a call to action to rid the United States economic system of greed and political partnership. This "list of demands" calls for a complete re-drawing of the Constitution. By weeding the politics out of big business and by demolishing the stranglehold big business has on politics, the Constitution can be upheld in full form. Third, whoever wrote this apparently can't see the problems we have already. As of late, one thing can be made certain, the government muddles up almost everything it gets its hands in. This list would just put more power in the hands of the government and takes it away from the people. This is in no way representative of the entire movement.
LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!! This is one of the best OWS parodies yet! I Love it!
Wait, add "Force McDonald's to leave the McRib on the menu indefinitely" Then I can take this seriously.
There are a lot of Demands on here that if taken to the public would completely de-legitimize this movement and everything we've worked for. for example: The Unionization of ALL workers is completely unrealistic An immediate raise of minimum wage to $18/hr would drive up the costs of everything from food to gas to...everything! The american public wouldn't be able to handle it. and a wage cap at $90!? that sounds something straight out of marxism. Banning the private ownership of land would mean that the Government OWNS ALL THE LAND! is that really what we want? Not this guy. Make homeschooling illegal? Who cares if religious idiots are feeding their children nonsense. Aren't we arguing for more representational freedoms here? If we're going to support the rights of the GLBTQ community and of minorities than we need to protect the rights of religion too, ALL religion, equally. Banning Private Gun ownership also is completely ridiculous and will be ridiculed by not only the extreme right, but the middle and left too.
But besides those things, sounds good!
the last one gives everyone a view as to the real motivation of these losers. does anyone remember the bolshevik revolution? Lenin used the working class to protest and rise up by promising them the dispersing of wealth they were not entitled to. The working class rose up and helped seat lennin and the communist movemnet into power. Then what happened? Lenin starved the population to get rid of them and empower himself and seized all the wealth for his party. My great-Grandfather was executed by the Red Terror in front of my then 6year old Grandfather. This is what these people are like. An the way I look at it, everyone elected into office has been sworn to uphold the Constitution and Defend the United States from enemies without or within the United States. These people are enemies of the United States! look at history and realize where this is heading. I say stop wasting time and obliterate these internal terrorists.
the last one gives everyone a view as to the real motivation of these losers. does anyone remember the bolshevik revolution? Lenin used the working class to protest and rise up by promising them the dispersing of wealth they were not entitled to. The working class rose up and helped seat lennin and the communist movemnet into power. Then what happened? Lenin starved the population to get rid of them and empower himself and seized all the wealth for his party. My great-Grandfather was executed by the Red Terror in front of my then 6year old Grandfather. This is what these people are like. An the way I look at it, everyone elected into office has been sworn to uphold the Constitution and Defend the United States from enemies without or within the United States. These people are enemies of the United States! look at history and realize where this is heading. I say stop wasting time and obliterate these internal terrorists.
Some of this looks reasonable, but most is unreasonable. This is promoting socialism and this is what the gov/globalist want. Playing into their hands if this is a sincere request. Most americans would disagree with this request I can only see for myself a small minority making these ridiculous claims.
Not sure who wrote this request but, it is clearly not researched. Most demands are uneducated demands based on ignorance of how the system actually works. Though there are some issues that make perfect sense as I have noted, the majority of these demands are quite childish.
If this list of demands represents the OWS agenda, I now know exactly who is behind this. You well-meaning goyim are being played as shills by the Master Race.
From what I can gather, this is a BS post. I asked around on the Facebook OWS page, and all are claiming it's a fake post, likely made by a troll looking to stir the pot. Big surprise, right?
Every American should read these demands. This is a lunatic fringe if ever there was one. You may be part of the 99%, but so is the Tea Party, and so am I. I predict that these terribly misguided people will become violent, as soon as they realize we are all laughing at them and ridiculing them. I say bring it on, let’s roll! I look forward to mainstream Americans teaching them a very important lesson.
Izzy Weird LiberalismSucks.com
I was thinking about starting an "occupy 'occupy'" movement but then we realized it might not be safe. Holding signs up saying stuff like I'm part of the 99% too and I want you to stay away from my bank.
"And Bring Back 8 Track Tapes!!!" I am sympathetic for the cause of ending the rich from abusing their power to manipulate the middle class as well as the Politicians, but these requests are pathetic. If this is real in anyway at all, then I will have to agree that this whole movement is useless. If this is fake, then someone should quickly call it out!!!
I'm a liberal, but these demands are just ridiculous. Ban the private ownership of land?? Are you crazy?? No borders at all, just everyone coming in willy-nilly?Are you EFFING crazy? I can't get behind a good chunk of these demands, because they stink of communism. I hope that this is some sort of sick joke, and that somehow Faux News has manipulated this list. This list will make all liberals lose credibility, way to go.
The above would create a totalitarian hell.
Congratulations. You have effectively found a way to antagonize every person of voting age in this country is some way, shape or form. You have no workable agenda, plan or guide. You are morally and ethically devoid of any character whatsoever. This country is at a tipping point where it will no longer tolerate those who wish to live off the largess (willing or not) of others. I will let you guess which side will win and it is not those living in tents amid disease, crime and filth that will dictate terms and conditions.
Thrse are sure a lot of demands. Can't we start with just a few??
I've numbered my responses according to the list above from top to bottem
I support Unions and I'm a Union member and am in training to become a Union Steward to repesent the employees of the State of CA. Dept. I work for. Neverthless I also support the right of any business entity to choose to not be unionized.
I'm not certain that this is feasable and I wonder if this would eliminate oportunities for High School Students and other first time worker's to obtain jobs and job training. I think that here is some good in the proposal, but it needs to be thought through more.
I don't see how a 6 hour workday is a reasonable demand. However, I'd like to see/hear/participate in further discussion on this.
4.This again I beleive needs to be discussed further as IMO there should be circumstantial exceptions.
I'm not sure that as written I agree. For instance I do not believe Government departments or even Businesses should be required to pay to have things written in other languages. I also beleive that if someone is in this country if they need an interpreter it should be on their dime. IMO there are exceptions to this such as the U.S. Immigration Sevice. However, State DMV offices should not have to pay to have documents written in the languages of every immigrant. I have no phobias about immigrants coming into this nation and nor do I beleive that to be citizens here they have to leave their culture behind to become citizens.
IMO there has to be some kind of legal immigration process that is fair and equitable to all, but open our borders to everyone who wants to come in without some type of proceedures to insure our nations security from terrorists and criminals would be foolish.
I don't agree with is comepletely. I beleive that all Americans should have access to health care. However, I also beleive in the right of individuals to choose how they are going to recieve it. There should be opportunity to opt out of Universal Health Care for a private plan.
This I'd like to read or discuss further, as I really do not want my taxes paying for political campains, however I do beleive that all donations groups of any kind whether businesses, non-profits, unions, etc. should be against the law.
This I think has some merrit, but at the same time I do not want to support dead beats who simply choose not to work. However, I'm all for helping those who cannot help themselves or for reasons beyond their control have experienced misfortune. Nevetheless sorry for using this term I just can't think of another I do not want us to become a welfare state or socialist society where there is no incentive for hard work, further education, etc.
8 This I do not beleive should be part of what we are fighting for I believe it is outside what the focus should be on. I'm all for reasonable evironmentalism and animal rights however, I think there are some things that are proposed by some groups that are over the top. Saying that I personally through the Fly Fishing Club that I belong to fight for reasonable laws and engage in clean up and restoration projects.
I believe there is some merrit for this or something like it within Government, purhaps even in some private sector settings.
I Agree!
I'm not sure that this is fair and equitable as it does seem to penalize someone for wealth.
This is not even worth dignifying for discussion. We are not communist or even worse and this could lead to some really negative things for everyone.
Just because, some fanatics use something to promote stupidity doesn't mean we should take peoples right to educate their own children away. That's like saying the internet should be outloud, because fanatics use it to promote their thoughts and ideas.
This is simply stupid it must have come from a 16-year-old or someone who has never parented children.
I beleive in the death penalty, because I do not want to pay for muders, rapists, molesters, arsenists, or pediphiles to be in prison and do not want them living next to me either.
I disagree this should be considered on a case by case basis by an independent party that has no vested interest in keeping them.
I agree!
This I would need to discuss further.
This I in no way agree with.
I'm not sure what is meant be this, however I do beleive religious organizations not qualify as non-profits.
Immediate debt forgiveness for all. Perhaps a one time deal.
End the 'War on Drugs'. I disagree, but I believe that Marijuana should be legalized nationally.
I've numbered my responses according to the list above from top to bottom
I support Unions and I'm a Union member and am in training to become a Union Steward to repesent the employees of the State of CA. Dept. I work for. Neverthless I also support the right of any business entity to choose to not be unionized.
I'm not certain that this is feasable and I wonder if this would eliminate oportunities for High School Students and other first time worker's to obtain jobs and job training. I think that here is some good in the proposal, but it needs to be thought through more.
I don't see how a 6 hour workday is a reasonable demand. However, I'd like to see/hear/participate in further discussion on this.
4.This again I beleive needs to be discussed further as IMO there should be circumstantial exceptions.
I'm not sure that as written I agree. For instance I do not believe Government departments or even Businesses should be required to pay to have things written in other languages. I also beleive that if someone is in this country if they need an interpreter it should be on their dime. IMO there are exceptions to this such as the U.S. Immigration Sevice. However, State DMV offices should not have to pay to have documents written in the languages of every immigrant. I have no phobias about immigrants coming into this nation and nor do I beleive that to be citizens here they have to leave their culture behind to become citizens.
IMO there has to be some kind of legal immigration process that is fair and equitable to all, but open our borders to everyone who wants to come in without some type of proceedures to insure our nations security from terrorists and criminals would be foolish.
I don't agree with is comepletely. I beleive that all Americans should have access to health care. However, I also beleive in the right of individuals to choose how they are going to recieve it. There should be opportunity to opt out of Universal Health Care for a private plan.
This I'd like to read or discuss further, as I really do not want my taxes paying for political campains, however I do beleive that all donations groups of any kind whether businesses, non-profits, unions, etc. should be against the law.
This I think has some merrit, but at the same time I do not want to support dead beats who simply choose not to work. However, I'm all for helping those who cannot help themselves or for reasons beyond their control have experienced misfortune. Nevetheless sorry for using this term I just can't think of another I do not want us to become a welfare state or socialist society where there is no incentive for hard work, further education, etc.
8 This I do not beleive should be part of what we are fighting for I believe it is outside what the focus should be on. I'm all for reasonable evironmentalism and animal rights however, I think there are some things that are proposed by some groups that are over the top. Saying that I personally through the Fly Fishing Club that I belong to fight for reasonable laws and engage in clean up and restoration projects.
I believe there is some merrit for this or something like it within Government, purhaps even in some private sector settings.
I Agree!
I'm not sure that this is fair and equitable as it does seem to penalize someone for wealth.
This is not even worth dignifying for discussion. We are not communist or even worse and this could lead to some really negative things for everyone.
Just because, some fanatics use something to promote stupidity doesn't mean we should take peoples right to educate their own children away. That's like saying the internet should be outloud, because fanatics use it to promote their thoughts and ideas.
This is simply stupid it must have come from a 16-year-old or someone who has never parented children.
I beleive in the death penalty, because I do not want to pay for muders, rapists, molesters, arsenists, or pediphiles to be in prison and do not want them living next to me either.
I disagree this should be considered on a case by case basis by an independent party that has no vested interest in keeping them.
I agree!
This I would need to discuss further.
This I in no way agree with.
I'm not sure what is meant be this, however I do beleive religious organizations not qualify as non-profits.
Immediate debt forgiveness for all. Perhaps a one time deal.
End the 'War on Drugs'. I disagree, but I believe that Marijuana should be legalized nationally.
OWS last event. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ed0_1220618296
Pass Single Payer health care end the war on drugs in its current form but continue prevention efforts Withdraw from Iraq and Iran. Do not get drawn in to disputes in other nations, These are the items I can support.
But there's no room for negotiation for a lot of people on banning ownership of private weapons. That's a hugely divisive issue which will absolutely destroy support for the Occupy Movement amongst a lot of people who are currently a part of it, much less people who need to be attracted to it... This list is a Marxist's wet dream, the dream of authoritarians everywhere, to hold a monopoly on the ability to project force, and a monopoly on the education of children. With those two things, society may be molded as the rulers desire - that is in no way a free society.
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I assume this is a comedy list of some sort.
Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.
Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality
Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.
Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda
Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.
SERIOUSLY PEOPLE???? Who wrote these things??? If you truly want what you have requested, I would suggest investing in creating a time machine and moving to Germany circa 1938, of the USSR circa 1950...Loony Tunes All of you who created such ridiculous demands....Ban the private ownership of land?? then you may as well rebuild Cabrini Green.... Government controlled housing would be the alternative, and equally bad.......
I agree with some of your list, disagree with some, and feel others; while great goals to work toward are not acchievable in our current culture.
IN order to keep the Movement viable we need to work on something concrete that will appeal to mainstream America and that we can celebrate when we reach the goal.
I am a Liberal but have been corresponding via internet with a TeaParty member I have never met Our goal is to find common ground. Here are 4 issues we agree on and feel could be acchieved.
Demand Congress enact HB 1148. This act will bar Congress members from insider trading.
This information is from another 60 MINUTE segment. I was shocked to find out our Congressional leaders are currently exempt from insider trading laws. This exemption encourages the kind of corruption that has created the mess we are in.
Establish a limit of two consecutive terms. The politician can run again but must take a term off after working for two consecutive terms.
Make a rule that every item in a bill must be enacted by a separate recorded vote. Hopefully this would eliminate earmarks.
What are you going to do with the 30% to 40% or so that would disagree strongly with all of this, or the additional 30 to 40% that would disagree with parts of it? I guess you could put them in camps to work for the new utopia.
How about Social Security and Medicare for all from birth as a "basic income"?
http://www.basicincome.org/bien/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Income_Guarantee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit
http://www.usbig.net
http://www.livableincome.org/Intro.htm
OK you just lost all MY support with this ridiculous list of un-educated and un-ethical demands- all it takes is one stupid demand to make you look like an idiot, and you have several here...
You know not what you bring upon yourselves, once the 'powers' who are feeding you these lies have their way, you will all be killed or jailed. As no one will do this nor can they,, their will never be enough money to feed the bankers and hard core communists who are feeding you all this crap,,,union workers who asked the same in Russia cica 1915 where made to work 15 hrs a day after the Czar was killed. NO days off, NO holidays, a much lower pay than what they received before Lenin. If they did not obey JAIL or death.. or never be allowed to work again.. starvation.. read history, learn, or you all are only USEFUL IDIOTS, FOR THE POWERS YOU SAY YOU HATE remember the powers in all communist countries live as KINGS, with the SERFs=YOU Communism, your manifesto is capitalism on STEROIDS
with debts forgiven, who would ever loan money?
ok so im only twenty years old and can see clearly that half of this has nothing to do with the issues at hand this looks like i imagine a bill trying to be passed looks like in congress two or three of these things are what we care about and the rest have been thrown on to get others to vote for it which is precisely the thinking process we are trying to abolish so whoever is in charge of this you should rethink your list a ittle
To make a list complete I think we should add another point - unicorns for everyone! (It won't make this list any more ridiculous and it would be awsome to have one) But to be serious, with exception to 6 points of this list, this ideas are not only plain stupid but also very dangerous to your nation's prosperity and freedom. Wishful thinking that does not take into considoration reality, when taken seriously and implemented, can cause severe damage. My nation (I'm Polish) as the others that were unlucky enough to end up in soviet block after WWII had some experience with those type of ideas and consequences of its implementation and I can assure you - you seriously don't want to go this way.
If someone is interested in consequences of collectivism and its implementation and want to put some effort into enlarging his/her knowledge in this matter I highly recommend reading Hayek's Road to serfdom
Sorry for my english;)
These lists of "demands", such as they are, are a constant stream of ignorance and foolishness. I would wager, a great deal of rage, as well. There's clearly no understanding of any actual history, basic economics, or philosophy, and apparently no desire to really understand these things either. No desire to know what's true. Only to echo what they've heard echoed to them. What terrifies me the most, is that many of the people creating these lists are primarily headed for lives in public administration and politics. That should frighten everyone.
Wow. While I understand these 'demands' are user initiated, it does give the impression that this movement is fully of nut-jobs. Maybe this isn't real, because I can't imagine a list doing more harm to this movement than what is listed above. Complete shortsighted insanity. I promise I'll be sharing this with everyone I know.
nut jobs, is a word used by those who don't understand their opponents' world view
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Uhh I don't agree with most of what you said sorry.
Rubbish. Get your mind working. Cause you know it ain't working like it should be. It's time to think... not think like you think you think... that ain't thinking, that's just justifying your inability to accomplish the things that you're not willing to work for.
Communist China sounds just about right for these self loathing tards
The list of demands are ok but they um...need some serious work. Were they voted on?? It needs some editing and revisions. Can these be revisited and somehow voted on by the masses of Occupy's around the US to start?
Fuck you author. You want us to be brainwashed serfs? Get a clue and learn some history. State run schools and firearms regulation are two hallmarks of Hitler, Stalin and Mao's regimes.
Sounds pretty intolerant of religion. Where would you get the money to cover all this utopia? The USA is broke! I'll keep my land and my gun thank you very much. And I'll keep the Constitution that protects me from the like of you. Have you ever read Atlas Shrugged? This kind of crap never works. Ever heard of the 7 deadly sins? How about the 10th commandment? Thou Shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbors.
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I would make it simple for you. My family from Venezuela wants to live in a free country like United States and you people want a communist country like Venezuela. Why don't we start an exchange program. You can go there and be deadbeats and they can come here to work and make it.
More realistic list of demands
End all wars on the planet now! End all disease now! Everyone is entitled to unlimited free energy and resources now! Everyone should send me all there money, now! I want Ice cream, now!
I am so happy you have to be 35 to be a Senator or President. The frontal lobe isn't fully developed until your 21. Most young people are physically incapable of making a long term complex decision. And so we have Occupy Wall Street...
good luck making it through the winter
Go back to Free Republic; you're not fooling anyone
lets take 2 or 3 big companies for now and break their financial back the same way their breaking ours. how about we all not buy a television or a kitchen appliance or a new cell phone or a new car... for the next 2 years Im sure we can live with that if we really tried to, I think they'll get the message and we'll see some jobs coming home pretty quick! Hey, with 74% of the population in step with this message it'll get the support to send the message we need to send. while we're at it lets stop buying these damn toyotas and all this poison from china !
this is funny.... your crack pipe is getting cold bud!!!
What a bunch of moron losers.... My Grandparents lived through such an experiment... Stalins USSR... They managed to get out of Ukraine alive and get here thank God.... All you idiots have had it soooooo easy your entire lives... Your punk asses would last
Get the hell off my planet!
Did we forget the "Equalization of Opportunity Act"?
This is completely absurd. If you think for one minute that the entire entity and stand against corporate greed is translated through these demands, you need to leave this country. I am for OWS. I believe that this movement IS and CAN change the way our country is being run, but this, sir, is communism and against what this country should be demanding. THESE ARE NOT MY DEMANDS and further more I believe these are definitely not the demands of the majority out there peacefully demonstrating right now.
This was tried before 1776. It didn't work. Let's stick with what Franklin and the guys set up for us so we could all do, successfully what we want, when we want and how we want. God bless these folks who haven't finished 'Human Nature for Dummies'.
i mean were do u start on were most of this will not work
I can only partially agree with 6 of these proposals. And I can guarantee you have 0 chance of getting any of the others enacted. Most of these are morally repulsive to libertarians and we are intransigent on these issues.
Well, some of those make sense. 1) Single Payer universal Health care system - AGREE. For a nation who spends so much on healthcare our life expectancy is less then in Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan, Israel, and thats despite that those folks smoke like chimney. 2) End War On Drugs. Agree. War on drugs is just something that police and FBI use to get more money for themselves. 3) Immediate withdrawl from Iraq & Afghanistan - AGREE. We acomplish nothing there. 4) 6 Hour work day and 6 weeks vacation - AGREE. 5) Create 5% wealth tax - AGREE. Gommint needs money and those who make $500000+ can afford to fork over some more cash. 6) Ban private ownership of the land - Agree. Land, like air can't be owned. 7) Ban all campaign donations - Agree. The way things are right now our politicians represent not us, but those who paid them off. 8) Maximum wage $90/hour- Agree.
Everything else must go, along with illegals and those who refuse to speak english
Aah...Irony.
(I really hope so - otherwise it's just idiotic)
Not sure this post helps anyone's cause.
To have a list that is so clearly unsustainable and, as I've read it, that seeks to rile up those that lean to the right (or, if i'm feeling cynical, discredit, with lunacy, those on the left), is only going to undermine the occupy movement.
How many people do you think have googled "Occupy demands" and been linked here?
You have to 'get' irony in the first place to learn anything from it!!
The majority, already angry (due to fear and lack of understanding if nothing else) at the Occupy Movement, will read this, take it as 'fact' and simply be further angered and consequently close off further.
Not sure how that is any way helpful.
So the very rich are the ones making $90/hr being taxed at 90%? They make less than minimum of $18/hr. This list of demands was created by the very ignorant
"tax the very rich at rates up to 90%".... key phrase: "UP TO"
and actually this was the case back in the early 1900s
that doesn't mean a strict 90%... I would imagine this to be the kind of thing where people who make over some arbitrarily but easily agreed upon "very large amount of money", say 10 million per year, may be taxed at UP TO 90%... that doesn't mean a full 90% but it does mean UP TO. I don't think any one person ever needs more than a couple or few million per year in the current USD economy to be happy. In fact the recent happiness research from Harvard puts the number at approximately $75k per year as the point at which happiness from money reaches it's maximum point and beyond which it plateaus - i.e. yes money can buy happiness, but only up to a point. Maybe being filthy rich can in fact provide you a few extra kicks, but your extra stress will probably make up for it. Given this data I think a few million per year is a safe ceiling to put on how much one individual should be able to make. Obviously there will be detractors from this idea, but c'mon, really? Do you need five Lamborghinis and three Porsches?
Yes these demands are a bit at odds mathematically depending on how you prefer to skew them but they express something very simple which is the anger inherent when the little guy gets taxed at somewhere around 15%-30% but the big corporations often pay literally no tax at all. Why should the rich have to pay? Because after a certain point, you're just a douche bag if you think you NEED all that extra material stuff to make you happy, or if you think you deserved it because you worked harder.
Everyone's time is valuable, and most people could probably learn what you learned if they wanted to. You're not special because you learned economics instead of quantum physics. You're not special because you can tell little white lies about the complicated mathematical gambles you're making in the derivatives market. Every farmer on the planet is probably more hard working than a banker from the perspective of the physicist because a farmer actually moves things and creates something of value. A banker sits on his butt and makes false value out of nothing, sells that false value to others, and then when the system collapses, the tax payers sell their unborn children in to debt to bail out the bankers.
All of this is also presupposing that taxation is even legitimate in the first place - aka you must condone violently and forcefully taking someone's hard earned money at gun point. The problem is getting society to voluntarily and co-operatively agree on these basic premises of human rights. Until then, we the 99% percent claim that the 1% have stolen what is rightfully ours, and we want it back. The occupy movement IS obviously peaceful, but theoretically, just like the one last apple on a shipwreck, we WOULD be justified in using force to defend our selves from starvation by taking what belongs to the rich to feed our children.
This is obviously Not how the occupy movement feels! This pose should be removed for ignorance!!
You can't have my gun, but you can have the rounds for it if you know what I mean.
This list is a good representation of what drugs do to you... along with not paying attention in Economics class.
Come on people.... We started this with a great mindset, and these demands kind of just show we're all just as power hungry and greedy as the dudes we protest. lets go back to the root of it, when it was the seperation of money and power.... but ban private gun ownership??? welcome to a police state ladies and germs! Make homeschooling illegal?????? Like public schools are ANY better, but in fact much worse. Let people believe what they want for Christ's sake! Isn't that America??? Although some ideas mentioned sound like fun little fantasies, if they were carried out, what would the consequences be?? People please think before you demand. The only demand I feel that should be up there is "END CORPORATE GREED AND DOMINATION AND RETURN TO THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTIONAL PRACTICE OF WE THE PEOPLE!!!!!! AND NOT WE THE RICH" Thats all.
NEWSFLASH, this page ISN'T PART OF THE OCCUPY MOVEMENT. It's one user-submitted list, buried in the forum. 100% guaranteed it was written by some conservative blowhard. It's a wet-dream of things that Conservatives like to claim that liberals are trying to do (ban guns? abolish home-schooling? ban private-ownership of land?? 90% tax on the rich Seriously) This list is clearly a thinly-veiled straw-man tactic meant to discredit the movement and make us look like the kind of crazies that Fox News fears. He would have gotten away with it too, if the list weren't so clearly insane and not representative of the OWS movement.
I was homeschooled from 3rd grade to the end of high school, got into a good college, and am now working on my masters' degree. I homeschooled because we moved to SC from NC, and there was a dramatic difference in school quality. So I homeschooled, and got a better education than I could have in public school. Sure, I was a year or so late in learning what various sexual procedures were called compared to my peers, but I was well educated and not a LICK of it was for religious purposes. You know, I used to support the Occupy Wallstreet movement to a degree, but ignorance and foolishness of this caliber is absolutely sickening. Go read a book, profligates.
I was willing originally to at least partially support the occupy movements. After reading this garbage, I am no longer willing to support it at all. I hope a few more cops bust a few more of your heads.
You are obviously a communist with a pure communist agenda. I thought the occupy movement was "supposed to be" about the corrupt affiliations between our dysfunctional GOOBERnment officials and the immoral corporate leaders that have been taking our country from us.
I now have friends on Facebook posting links to this and saying, "See! This is what the Occupy people want!" ::sigh:: Mission accomplished, Troll.
polarization here. again. not the answer.
needles in the hay stack -
Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Strengthen the separation of church and state.
Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers.
I am sorry, but this is ridiculous coming from the people that don't understand how jobs work. America has money from the people that work... otherwise we are no better than a socialist country.
Don't tax the rich! They create the jobs we working people need... did you ever think about that?
Social Security? What social security? It needs reform and where's the money to do it?
Universal healthcare sounds nice, but it's no better than socialized medicine. On paper it is awesome, in real life, it sucks (ask Canada, England, Korea, etc.)
6 hour workday and 6weeks vacation? Thats just ridiculous! Why do you think we work so much? To keep the American economy moving!
I was homeschooled, my parents are not religious fanatics, I am socially rounded and well educated on life, school, and people. I get a new respect from my peers because of homeschooling, they are impressed.
Private land? This Land is MY Land this land is YOUR land... remember this song? What will that accomplish? Farmers will not be happy about this...
Ban private gun ownership... uhh 2nd amendment anyone? I reserve my right to have/own whatever guns I want. I dare you to try.
Even if the intent of this post was honest change, it's being posted throughout the Social media world by Conservatives as ACTUAL OWS DEMANDS! I just had to slap down a friend of mine who posted it as a Manifesto on Facebook.
I'm not entirely sure that wasn't the writer's actual intent. This list is ridiculous and feeds the notion that this is an Anti-Capitalist movement - which it isn't!
Well, we just lost about 99% of the 99%. I truly don't mean any offense, but this is what I would expect from an 8th grade student, i.e., someone with no understanding of how the world functions. I'm sure Wall St. will be overjoyed to see a list such as this; it means they've got absolutely nothing to worry about.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever read, and completely unsustainable. I thought this was an article from the Onion.
actually,the best way to get to the top 1 % and their stooges is to find a way to draw in Republicans to the fight. They are currently cat calling from the sidelines. This is done by limiting demands to bi-partison areas of agreement and refusing to let politicians and corporate fake grass roots fronts into important positions in hte movement
I am sorry, I have to laugh. Those demands are made either by people who haven't worked a lick in their life or have sucked off society their entire life. Let me ask you boys and girls, who is going to pay for all of this? A socialistic idea of redistribution of wealth is only good enough until those paying run out of money. If I were one of the rich if these ridiculous demands came to fruition I would be looking for a nice piece of land in another country, take my employees with me and say 'see ya'. Let's see how you would tax me now. Oh yeah you all are so brainwashed you haven't given it any individual thought - which by the way boys and girls is not allowed in the society you are proposing.
Geesch go home to your mommies and daddies
Who's the fascist now!!! Ooops, I mean who continues to be fascist party. The left where it has always been. Communism, Nazism, Fascism, all are just different colors of "RED" or Socialism! If you like it so much, move to North Korea or Cuba and get a taste of your hearts desire. Have fun!!!!
Oh, and add "Kill the goose that lays the golden eggs."
Based upon the real, actual attempts at OWS governance, one would reasonably question why the following demands have been excluded from the above list…
Rape and Sodomy shall be encouraged, especially in park areas.
Immediate legalization of public defecation and urination. Legions of Unionized Pooper Scooper patrols shall be initiated.
Murder of humans for profit or revenge shall be legal. This does not apply to animals who now have rights.
Setting cars on fire is perfectly acceptable as long as it is done in conjunction with drum beating and the flailing of arms.
People of Jewish decent are excluded from the human race because we say so.
Individual thought is discouraged and shall be made punishable. Individual initiative is punishable by death.
You Communist scum! Do all of us hinest, hard working, FREEDOM loving Americans a favor, and LEAVE! I hear Cuba or North Korea accepts your kind.
It is these comments that turn people off to OWS.
Put the crack pipe down and move to Venezuela you communist scumbags. Oh yeah, TAKE A BATH.
This post should be deleted.
This person is obviously a troll and does not represent the occupy movement.
This is the most naive pile of crap I've ever read. It shows how bigoted you are, not racially, but your bigoted against anyone wealthy, even when you don't know how they became wealthy or anything else about them. If everything you mentioned above were implemented, YOU would not be able to achieve anything for yourself, these rules would prevent that. My God, you're stupid!
Yeah... this really gives lots of amunition to Right wing critics, so... thanx. I'm as radically "progressive" as most, and 99.9% committed to non-violence, but the Bill of Rights should not be messed with, including the 2nd Amendment. "People should not fear government; government should fear people."
So, as expected, this is basically their(your) demand for militantly enforced Communism.
Synopsis of these demands: Ban the following at any and all costs:
Intellectual Honesty , Moral Integrity , Personal Responsibility , Individual Determination , Freedom of Thought , Critical Analysis , Independent Opinion , Freedom of Speech , Personal Liberty of any kind , The right to succeed or fail based on nothing but your own efforts
This is not the demands that is with the Occupy wall street I hope. We all know that it is realistic in which the ground is rocked on.
just use the current political system to get this done.... oh wait you can't because not everyone agrees with you.
lol
This is an absolute mockery of what all are ancestors have died for since man set foot here. If you all don't remember our ancestors came here to get away from ideas and rules like these. This is an outrage, I am absolutely positive you will be crushed. Our country is not perfect nethier am I and you all sure as hell have your heads on backwards. Get out from behind your degrees and all the (BS) your clouded with and walk through a grave yard see who fought for us. It was our family's, freind's son's and daughter's. So thank you all so much for your appreciation for our country and our people.
This is an absolute mockery of what all are ancestors have died for since man set foot here. If you all don't remember our ancestors came here to get away from ideas and rules like these. This is an outrage, I am absolutely positive you will be crushed. Our country is not perfect nethier am I and you all sure as hell have your heads on backwards. Get out from behind your degrees and all the (BS) your clouded with and walk through a grave yard see who fought for us. It was our family's, freind's son's and daughter's. So thank you all so much for your appreciation for our country and our people.
Instead of responding like a furious, screeching monkey, like everyone else, I will give you a list of reasonable and calm criticisms.
No. Unions are essential and must be strongly supported and protected under the law, but people should be able to choose whether or not they want to be in a union.
Raising the minimum wage is not unreasonable considering it is supposed to be a living wage and what we have now is not at all close to that. I think this is a good goal, but not a politically sane goal; I would say aim or $12 an hour, and get rid of the last part.
I don't see anything wrong with our current work hours. The fight for the 8-hour workday was long fought and was a good victory. Six weeks of paid vacation is good; many other western countries already have things similar to this. It is something we should fight for.
I really wouldn't call these laws racist and xenophobic in all cases. That's going a bit extreme, it's just making ad hominem attacks on your opponents and it's wrong. Lots of countries have national languages, and English is overwhelmingly the most common language in the U.S.
I personally agree, but the hatred for immigrants propaganda is too strong and would kill us. Supporting something like this would be bad for us; it should be saved for after we gain more control in government. This isn't the proper stage to make such a demand.
Agree with campaign finance reform. Disagree with campaigns being funded by taxpayers. Donations from individuals are fine, just limit these donations to small amounts. I understand that they are trying to eliminate the control of the rich in politics, but donating to campaigns is one way in which people can express their support, and taking away their right to do this is wrong. The concern is not people donating to campaigns, but the wealthy having more power in politics because of their money; limiting everyone to making a small donation would eliminate this concern, and ensure everyone's right to expression is equal.
You need to calm down a little bit.
This is an extreme, culture-altering measure. It would change the very nature of our society itself. It is something we could have a discussion on, but it isn't something that belongs in such a list of demands; it's on an entirely different level.
Homeschooling is an essential right that people must have...you cannot infringe on people's freedom in this way. Most homeschooled children are also much better educated than public schooled children, because the public school system is a failure. The public school system in the US eliminates critical thinking skills and damages children with social engineering...the school system itself needs to be radically reformed, and a homeschooling option must remain.
This is the one thing that I very much disagree with most liberals on. I can offer nothing but the typical pro-gun arguments that I'm sure you have already heard here, but I do hold these arguments to be true. All banning guns does is take guns away from law-abiding citizens; criminals will still have them. All banning anything does is give power to black markets.
Everything else, I agree on....but this person really goes way too far to the socialist end of the spectrum, and eliminating people's personal rights.
Is this a bad joke???
How well is this working out in Greece? Cause almost everything here is socialism and we have seen that it does not work. It can't be communism because under that, the centralized state no longer exists and there can never be truly communism under the guise of Marxist theory because anyone or any group given nearly unlimited power under the banner of Socialism in order to bring about Communism, will never give up that power--therefore, Communism can never truly exist. Almost all of your demands are unconstitutional. With the exception of ending the war on drugs, and ending the wars. The solution IS the Constitution.
This is exactly why Greece is crashing and burning with a diminishing currency. Massive debt because of these exact kinds of "social benefits." Y'all should go live there. Or even Cuba or North Korea and see what socialism/Communism is all about.
Why is this being allowed to stay on this page? This has nothing to do with what OWS protesters actually think and it will only serve to discredit the movement as detractors attempt to use it as some sort of official list. The person who wrote this is attempting to hurt the movement by posing as a supporter and making ridiculous claims.
"Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr..." - What would this solve? All it would mean is that in order to afford paying such a high wage to their employees EVERYTHING from cars to chewing gum would be exponentially inflated in price. What good is it to get $18 an hour when a Happy Meal costs $14.99 plus tax.
"Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation; Create a single-payer, universal health care system; Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits" - Oh yeah, these policies are just working WONDERS over in the Eurozone right now, regular workers paradise in Italy and Greece...
what a joke!
These morons are smoking the drapes!!
Might as well have said "End The Corruption" LOL ! !
Everybody relax. This has to be a joke!
the O.W.S is just the type of civil unrest (economic) that the White house thugs want to use to enact marshal law through the executive orders EXECTUIVE ORDER 11051 : specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tension and ECONOMIC OR FINANCIAL CRISES .
http://occupywallst.org/forum/you-might-ask-why-america-is-so-special
I was with you until you said "provide food and shelter for the needy".
What? No food and shelter for the needy? Count me in!!
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(Pssst. OWS is above and beyond politics. Discuss politics and you've lost the plot. We're trying to solve a PROBLEM and it sure ain't a political one.)
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my ass
Goodbye America.
The patriot act already took away enough rights. I don't want my second amendment right taken away. I have a friend that almost got jumped by 3 men while he was with his family. We still live in a society where we need guns. And not to forget that hunting is still a right to all men and women. It's a means of survival and a means to feed the family.
I support OWS but I also support the constitution.
I've been following the movement and sympathise with it. But, I only agree with one of these items.
"Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers."
If we can have campaign finance reform which ensures that our representative government is truly..well..representative of the ideas of it's people, then we'll be able to tackle all other issues fairly.
Who authorized this to be the official list of demands anyway?
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Obviously the OP is a Marxist pinko commie fuckstick. Go back to Central America there Che.
This is the kind of garbage post that makes me sad for OWS. The biggest issue - banks being able to trade and gamble with FDIC insured deposits and unregulated trading of derivatives is not mentioned at all. Instead its nonsense about every gripe in the US. Ban "private ownership of land", are you serious?
Its called Occupy Wall Street for a reason. There is a huge moral hazard in this country and its called high finance. 40% of profits in the US go to finance, 44% of which is then given out in bonuses to bankers. Its a new tax on the system, and everyone is paying.
Bring up the real issues or risk being marginalized. I hope you don't speak for OWS.
[Removed]
This list does not represent the majority of OWS and is widely considered as being ridiculous and a joke
Why is this still posted here? why has this not been deleted. some media station is going to get a hold fo this. this needs to be deleted immediately
Some of this is SOoooooooooooo ridiculous. Abolish the debt limit? Er, sounds good in an ideal society, but that would be a disaster unless the Federal Reserve is abolished with it, otherwise we're just indebting ourselves to the Wall Street cartel. Seriously, how do people not understand this?
One thing in the list that did stand out, however, is the creation of a 6 hour work day.. Although something even more effective would be to implement 4 day work week, with overtime pay required after say 30 hours. Companies would be forced to hire more workers and the quality of life for many people would be instantly improved.
Are you ready to pay for the increase in prices required by this?
Digital Millennium Copyright Act. bchang may want to look that up.
ultimately, you are not in a position and nobody is to brainstorm up mere demands. demands are stupid and infantile. complaints and then problem defintions and then detailed problem solutions are great. that requires time and homework to generate, not bong hits and then a brainstormed imagine yourself as emperor of the world Scrawl. this kind of thing does not help the movement, it just gives the powers that be ammo against us and prevents meaningful conversations which have depth or open source research and problem solving because you and everyone else imagines we can just skip all the steps and churn out "demands." Listen to the other people in the movement who are wisely saying NO to demands lists. I have demands, they are to the movement itself- thats where the real game is.
"Would you rather have war in this land? Do not confront me work with me...Civil unrest could very well lead to civil war... This list will prevent civil war.... Infantile, we are all infants in conciseness, which explains your poor choice of words.... You should be telling me how to make the list better not how it will never work."
? gawdoftruth (Santa Barbara, CA) 1 points 0 seconds ago
no, you need to drop making lists of demands. period. until you do open source research and science centered problem solving with other people, you have nothing to say worth repeating. your brain storming in ignorance. it sounds really really awesome to you- but for many people your tone def. Making demands is itself a sign of infantilism. period. Take responsibility and start working the problems in a deep and real way. I should not have to run through this further with you. This is a ludicrous sense of direction, it is not helping the movement and its not useful or meaningful for long term strategy in fact all it is is a giant set of red rings to give the pundits a clear target.
I don't want war. how i stop the war is to work the problems in a deep way and address the war. Not make demands. I'm an adult, not a seven year old, not a hostage taker, not a terrorist. I don't make demands, i communicate evolutionary truths. If ten thousand people follow my example we can have an evolution. If you run around like a bunch of punk alpha dominant azzholes, i promise you, all of your demands will lead to nothing but scorn and alienation.
but i can expect that we will find good solid means to that end instead of self sabotaging means to that end. Change your communication strategy. These are main political issues which you find to be critical. Now ask people to join you in reasearching them and working on these problems open source. You think you have the end product. instead you have a starting point. remove the "demands" from "demands" and replace with "these are the issues i want to discuss which seem critical to me." There you go. Thats the real process. "Demands " is itself what big Bruddah wants precisely because that makes us the ones holding wall street hostage. Domestic terrorism even when called non violent is still in essence domestic terrorism. Terrorists issue demands. Evolutionary patriots form think tanks.
How can you go around undermining people's legitimate ideas, claiming that they're of zero worth and value yet you haven't presented anything that is worthwhile or even remotely insightful?
What is this thing that you call "open-source research" There is no such thing as "open-source research". There is, however a thing a lot of people know of, it's called academia.
"open-source" is a technological term, it was coined that way and has always been so.
It completely baffles me that you claim others' ideas as baseless and irrelevant, yet can't see the ignorance that arises out of your own.
Just a reminder, this is about the 99% and NOT your own isolated ideas as to what is right or wrong for the 99%. Or perhaps you're just another drone, bought by Wall Street to provoke dissent.
how can you go about lying about me? I have in fact presented the solutions to the problems, and am across the board evolutionary insightful.
legit ideas? which? the idea of DEMANDS is not legit- its what the oligarchs ask for in order to frame us as terrorists, but it is an abdication of our responsibility, and it is a failure to actually work or solve the problems on deeper levels.
there most certainly is such a thing as open source research.
it completely baffles me that you can't see the difference between claimnig a presentation is wrong and the ideas in the presentation. the core ideas are fine ideas. what we do after and how we phrase it and how we bother to get to the details is just as important. There is no ignorance here, sorry, i am the adult in the room and i have esoteric knowledge in 20 subjects.
yes it is about the 99 percent,. it is also about the truth. demands are a stupid and infantile temper tantrum and a self defeating tactic. that is the truth.
after 20 years of fighting against corporate oligarchy, you have some nerve accusing me of being off sides when in fact whats really going on is morons are responding to corporate medias demand for demands without thinking about what that frames them as. I am not a terrorist. And if you can't grok that we should form open source think tanks- not make demands- your being stupid and accidentally evil and playing as a dupe right into their game.
More BS Lies. There is only one demand.
Occupy Wall Street Our One Demand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI_P3pxze5w
Jct: Restrict bank computers to a pure service charge and abolish the interest charge. No more usury creating mort-gage death-gamble.
”TOCSFAE” IS TOXIC TO THE BANKERS
The declaration needs back up, a barrier, a friend! TocsFae is that.
From the beginning when our country was formed we face many challenges and many opposing views
Just like today however, the peoples voices have been silence by special interest groups as well as the over whelming power grab by the bankers. Your demands/petitions will never be heard or taken seriously unless lobbyist/corporate have bless it for greedy reasons or eventually Co-Opt it. so keeping a hard core is essential.
It is time for a fair hearing!
Whether you have protested at the gas pump or you are an Occupier give our protest the teeth it needs beyond the gas pump and over the protest lines.
Wouldn’t it be worth your time to know there is a petition list worth signing that binds all Occupiers together.
Wouldn’t it be great if you can be heard, fairly and equally?
This is were the 7’step plan an ever growing list known as “TOCSFAE” can help. These step plans, enhances your concerns.
This petition will be a notification to congress of things yet to come and to properly prepare.
As of January 2012 we the people
We will not take the abuse anymore and neither should they walk around with there heads in the sand.
We will begin the process of phase one
Your petition will go to congress, informing them you support The “TOCS FAE” plan and so should they, by making preparations for receiving and forwarding income Tax mail. Your petition will also go to the top corporations letting them know of our intentions and they too should support and act on the doctrine by sending their taxes directly to congress. They should also be informed if our demands are not met, protests will be under way the likes they have never seen.
After this is achieved and we have broken the back of a few select Corporations we will move on to Step1 Taxes which may take months or years
Step1) Send your TAXES to a trusted congressman or congresswoman which maybe hard to find in your state. Make a Petition with your neighbors. Phone, email, fax your congress your list and intentions. Prepare your taxes, made out to the I.R.S check and envelope, and a stamp. Fit it in inside of a bigger envelope, onto which you should write congress address, preferably your state congress.
Example
Washington, DC 203 Cannon House Office Building Washington, DC 20515 Phone Number: (202) 225-2831
Have congress unwrap the envelopes, state you want your taxes to be mailed to the I.R.S
If you are asking yourself, what will this achieve first it can be used as a bargain chip however, congress cannot spend it or over take the fed reserve and banks system over night, nonetheless this will indeed give teeth/meat, back to congress. You should include a sign return receipt so as to show proof you paid your taxes.
For the rest Click http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/
click http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/tocsfae
Occupy funny pix http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/apps/blog/
If you are interested in expressing this message to Occupy General feel free to do so.
do we really need to be third grade name callers? i posted a similar laundry list on other ows boards BUT my goal is not to force OWS to accept my list my goal is to get everyone in OWS to write their congressman with their own demands AND ech of us must get someone else to write - and ask them to get someone else. no matter what "our demands" are - demands are not nearly enough! have you seen the recent aarp commercials threatening congress with votes? how does the nra propigate the gun violence - with votes. how did the tp take over the rp - with votes. + Select your issues & FIND YOUR REPRESENTATIVE & SENATORs CONTACT: https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml http://www.house.gov/ http://www.senate.gov/ Then, “grass roots” it: get at least 4 of your friends to also email their congressman & get them to “grass roots” this through repeated generations–till Washington is covered in grass!
You can use www.whitepages.com/person to look up people & addresses & zip codes. Important Note: they will only pay attention to zip codes in their
<House> congressional district Or <Senate> state
+
DEMOCRACY IS FOR SALE ONLY IF YOUR
INACTION ALLOWS IT ! +
THE MESSAGE IS: VOTE THE WAY I WANT ON MY ISSUES OR I WONT VOTE FOR YOU
NO, this list is RIDICULOUS and actually it's causing real trouble for the movement. I found this list because a bunch of people on another listserve read it and were saying, "Wow, the Occupy movement is a bunch of teenage anarchists, apparently" and I checked it out. It is so damaging to sound so incredibly naive and out of touch with reality. Ban private ownership of land? Ban private gun ownership??? I mean, sure, let's just run around screaming that from the American rooftops, people will REALLY take us seriously. Jesus. I just do not want Occupy to be associated with this craziness. Are we serious about change or are we smoking dope and ranting at the moon?
I don't want no assassin drone planes flying around Pakistan
in fact
I don't want no air strikes at all
fuck you
from orbit
Idiots. Lets not margainalize this movement.
Hahahahahaha...... that's assuming you were ligitimate to begin with. Nobody but yourselves and dimocrats took you seriously. What a joke. You do NOT, under ANY circumstance, represent the 99% of America. That's not even wishful thinking, that's insanity.
Idiots. Lets not margainlize this movement.
this looks in no way serious. hell, the person who posted this joined yesterday / today depending on timezone
Regardless when this person joined, this is what he/she believes and a lot of other protestors because they can't think for themselves.
Death row demand rephrased to make more clear.
^should read:
"Death row demand taken out for sake of sounding legitimate"
This list of demands has got to be a joke. Why don't we just change our name to U.S.S.R.
The only thing that isn't totally laughable is ending the war on drugs, which is in fact long overdue.
Is this a joke? Are you trying to alienate everyone in America? Google "OWS Demands" and get this...what a disaster.
no no no no no no no no no
Imagine this scenario, a reporter walks up to someone with a microphone and a camera and says "Ok Mr OWS what are the demands of the movement?"
Then you start on this monster. Even if they let you finish you have now alienated most of the population. Good luck.
The problem is that people are too attached to capitalism.
Capitalism is fine. Name one system that has worked better.
Sorry buddy, but capitalism is what made America GREAT!!
It's the insidious creep of liberalism and socialism that has just about destroyed it. Has been for about the past 70 years.
Capialism lifts all boats, socialism/marxism/socialism, makes everybody equally miserable.
I have one demand. A democratic world. Go big or go home.
This is from Drudge 11/16/11. I'll be honest. When OWS first started, despite some of the misguided opinions, I supported it. But today? OWS doesn't even have a core philosophy other than the all inclusiveness of every fruit and nut. It is overrun by socialists and communists and skanks. Full of freeloaders and etc. who vastly out number those who had/are trying to recreate liberty in this country and end graft in our government. Oh yoohoo we need food. Oh yoohoo we need blankets. Oh yoohoo we need shoes. Oh yoohoo we need tents. Oh yoohoo we need and need and need ... anything but liberty. Oh yoohoo ommmmmmmm... we need socialism and communism. Oh yoohoo Yoga at 5 PM. Oh yoohoo how to game the government while it is gaming you classes at 3 PM. Hello OWS? Take off the colander.
Dozens of Hypodermic Needles Found in Trash...
Protester Arrested for Child Porn at 'Occupy' Chicago...
Man arrested at LA camp for public masturbation in front of children...
Now, ringworm and scabies hit 'occupy' camps...
If you're looking for Liberty, talk to the tea party, not 'occupy'
This is just pathetic. Unfortunately, this is what OWS has become. A smorgasbord of socialists and communists. Keep pushing this junk OWS and you WILL get your civil war ... and you and I will be facing off eye to eye. Bind the government with the chains of the constitution. Restore the republic. THAT is the only message OWS should have. The all inclusiveness of the nuts will destroy OWS. Guaranteed. Clean up your act and your ranks.
This has got to be a joke. Or is there someone out there who is really this a) uneducated about what happened in history when this kind of crap was implemented, b) educated, but stupid, or c) just an idiot. I'm voting that this is a joke. But if it's serious...dude...
YES!!!!
Oh my God! Please adopt this!
Especially the Moratorium on Foreclosures, and the Minimum wage thing!
Did you guys realize that Europe and Australia has a minimum wage of $18/hr?
Holy crap! Adopt these immediately! You need a list of demands, it WILL help the movement!
Jay Leno will have a field day with this list of stupidity!
A bigger weiner!
What they folks demand is MORE GOVERNMENT. More and more and more government. They fantasize that government is their friend. It isn't. These useful idiots are helping to bring in our first dictator - who will then "eliminate" this bad element.
dude you forgot to add the other THREE wars OBAMA got us involved in,, did an Obama staffer write this? me thinks yes
Holy crap! If any of you actually believe in even half this staff, you're a bunch of delusional kooks. $18/hr minimum wage? 90% tax on the rich? Do you not understand that this will immediately drive all the wealth and job creators out of the country, leaving you to wallow in your shit like you're doing now, except the rest of the country would be doing the same.
Abolish debt limit? To see the same thing as in Greece happen here within 4-5 years? And a complete economic meltdown completely destroying the world economy.
But my favorite by far is banning the private gun ownership. It's great that you want to turn yourselves into a bunch of unarmed sheep primed for fleecing by anyone with power. Please come and take mine. Give me an excuse to put you out of your pitiful,pathetic druggie misery.
You know not what you bring upon yourselves, once the 'powers' who are feeding you these lies have their way, you will all be killed or jailed. As no one will do this nor can they,, their will never be enough money to feed the bankers and hard core communists who are feeding you all this crap,,,union workers who asked the same in Russia cica 1915 where made to work 15 hrs a day after the Czar was killed. NO days off, NO holidays, a much lower pay than what they received before Lenin. If they did not obey JAIL or death.. or never be allowed to work again.. starvation.. read history, learn, or you all are only USEFUL IDIOTS, FOR THE POWERS YOU SAY YOU HATE remember the powers in all communist countries live as KINGS, with the SERFs=YOU Communism, your manifesto is capitalism on STEROIDS
If private land ownership is banned, who will build a home, open a store, run a factory, or have an office? The tax proposal ignores findings of the 2009 Harvard study reviewing statistics, from 1970 to 2007, among all OECD countries, showing that tax reduction stimulated economic growth and employment. Banning private donations to political campaigns violates the First Amendment
What morons. I hope this idiot isn't part of the leadership of this stupid protest.
You forgot Build a Colony on the moon, dope. Hey that's a great idea. Then we could ship all you losers there. Occupy the Moon. I like it.
where the hell are you coming up with all the revenue for this? You are all marxist losers and should just go live in china or vietnam where all your rights are taken away. who the hell are you to tell me what to do with my child? i live in america because i desire freedom. if you want laws and restriction move elsewhere since you hate it so much. just because you want to be lazy and get money for it doesnt mean its right. tax people who work hard? just because you have some kind of useless liberal degree and cant get a job with it doesnt mean you should take it out on the rest of us that work hard for our money. You dont deserve 18$ an hr and paid vacation when you flip burgers for a living. and how does in make sense to tax someone 90% when they make 90$ an hr? they would make less than the min wage people! you are a highly uneducated communist and you need to go get the real taste of communism. ask the people that try and flee to live in america how much they like it,
this cant be real right
is this list a joke?
is this list here to make OWS look bad or is it for real?
you are noth the 99% you cant speek for the 99% you know the other 2 million people in America
Please do not give OWS a bad name...Not all agree with these ideals. I, for one, do not.
the people you want to release are convicted of rape and murder kind of like the person that killed one of your 25-year-old protesters
i want to keep my land
get the hell off my lawn you hippies
why say decrease the workday to 6 hours? none of you protesters work anyway, so what difference does it make to you? and just think, if you did that maybe you couldn't get a Big Mac across the street at all hours....then you'd really be in trouble
What a bunch of losers. Get off your ass and join the 1% with a little hard work.
This list is a good representation of what drugs do to you... along with not paying attention in Economics class.
the very wealthy ($90/hr) after taxes will be making $4.50/hr...just briliant
Troll.
so, in your view the very rich ($90/hr) will be taxed at 90% + a 5% annual wealthy tax. Bringing doctors, executives, other professionals to $4.50/hr, which is $13.50/hr lower than your minimum wage of $18/r...just brilliant economic strategy, I'm speechless at your level of genius.
I am the antithesis of the anti... this wasn't written by an american; there's nothing here that any of us would agree to.
Small steps grasshoppers.
Your list will require an intact and supportive government to institute the changed.
So, the first step in that direction is to Get The Money Out of politics; no corporate donations to campaigns, no 527's, no PAC's. and etc. (2) deal a blow to lobbying by requiring that all interactions with representatives be written or recorded and the information then entered into the Congressional record.
BWAAAAAHHH haa ha aha ahahahaaa!!! What a load of shit!!!!
You must all be eating those special brownies! Have you even worked out how this could possibly be implemented? No. Go back to your parents basements and think about what you've done and then apologize to the nation for your immature behaviour. This is complete poppycock!
You forgot a total ban on religion except Muslim. And the private ownership of housing. The state should own everything. Also the institution of Sharia Law and abolition of the Constitution.
This obviously is a JOKE......these are NOT the official request nor Demands....probably put out by FOX NEWS.
These ARE the Demands Fool, They will be coming for you next.
Here is how the banker's game works:
1) Get the government to issue some currency (cash -- paper or reserves at the central bank -- reserves are government issued cash central bank deposits). Government issued cash is around 5% of the currency (money) supply. The government issued currency is put into circulation by the government simply spending it.
2) The rest (95%) of the currency is issued by the private banks. Each customer loan is a new bank deposit (i.e., new currency) and increases the currency (money) supply of the economy. Note that this newly created money (currency) is put into circulation by the borrower spending it. Most currency (about 95% America's currency supply) has been borrowed into existence and when bank customer pays the loan back that amount of currency is removed from circulation. The banking system cannot go backwards (fewer net loans) as time moves on because fewer net loans means fewer currency in circulation in the economy.
Accmulation of interest charges on outstanding loans means that the currency supply must constantly increase even if it means giving out lower quality loans. Think of it like a plane flying it must fly at some minimum speed or else the plane (the banking system) will crash (i.e., banking system collapse).
3) The bankers make dam sure that the common public does not understand how the monetary system works meaning that the private banks issue 95% of the currency. This is whole another topic how they do this.
4) The system works until real economic capacity of the economy grows and debts can be serviced and interest charges paid. Most of the time the economy oscillates between boom (growth) and bust (recession) because bust is needed to clear debts and start a new lending cycle.
5) Eventually, one of these cycles goes so deep that currency supply (and demand) falls so low that too many debts become un-serviceable. The recession becomes a depression now.
6) The bankers then have to decide how to "reset" the system. One way to reset the system is to let the depression takes its course. But of course this path is very chaotic because people lose jobs and may become violent. Once most debts are cleared lending can start again and the currency supply is replenished. Wars are a good way to get initial money (currency) into an economy after a depression to get demand going again. This is the great depression scenario.
7) Another way to "reset" the system is to get the government to print too much money and spend and destroy the currency and blame it on the government. This justifies issuance of a totally new currency (note that hyperinflation clears debts) and the lending cycle can start again.
8) The banking system (as is) is setup to maximize the power and influence of the global bankers and NOT for the maximum general well being of people. By the way this is a global game. This is the only system around no matter what country you are in. The global banking cartel makes sure that no competing systems are allowed to exist (so they might be copied and global bankers will lose power).
For more details on this stuff please read the following articles in order listed below:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/209386-modern-monetary-system-there-is-another-way
http://aquinums-razor.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-is-relationship-of-money-to.html
http://aquinums-razor.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-is-deflation-and-depression.html
http://seekingalpha.com/article/210346-should-newly-created-money-be-a-private-or-a-public-asset
http://seekingalpha.com/article/192375-cause-of-today-s-economic-crises-too-much-thrift
http://seekingalpha.com/article/160269-a-radical-solution-for-america-s-insolvent-financial-system
http://seekingalpha.com/article/146658-great-banking-confusion-is-there-a-better-way
Mansoor H. Khan
http://aquinums-razor.blogspot.com/
Someone is trying to discredit the group...nice try bchang....not gonna happen.
The group needs NO help in being discredited. The FIRST DAY the media showed the protesters on Wall Street chanting "Kill the Jews." and the signs calling for socialist government. 99% of the protesters are whack jobs.
From the beginning there was only one demand
July 29th 2011 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/occupywallstreetfullpag.png/
1) Agree in part; rebuilding a union network, especially in industries like restaurant service that have the lowest wages and in any industry involving potentially dangerous working conditions. That said, I highly doubt that management and certain classes of professionals need unions to represent them...
2)I'd say go to about $10-$11 per hour and see how that works, rather than going straight to $18. As to the second part of your post, no. I'd prefer a 40x rule, in which the CEO makes no more than the lowest-paid new hire on the assembly line.
3)No. 40 hours a week has served us well enough for now and if we work to bring jobs back from overseas there should be more than enough labor to go around. Besides, there is a great deal of money in overtime and I don't want to see that go away. As for six weeks paid vacation, I don't know about that, but minimum sick leave standards do need to exist.
4)Agreed. At this point letting the demand side of the market bleed out further is only going to hurt us badly in the end.
5)What English-only laws are you talking about?
6)No. At this point I want to see our borders close for a while so that we can properly deal with the immigrants we have rather than importing new ones. I don't mind amnesty, though, because if people have to be treated and paid as American citizens and have to pay taxes, etc. like Americans do, then they don't depress the equilibrium wage and they pay their fare share then by all means let them stay.
7)Agreed. That's probably actually going to reduce the healthcare portion of the budget, given that countries with single-payer systems spend less on healthcare as a part of their GDP than America does.
8) I think that we could get everyone from Communists to Paulites on board with this.
9) Let's start with somewhat less than that, say 45% above $250,000, 55% above $500,000, 65% above $1 million, and 75% above $50 million. Also, what's a negative income tax?
10) Agreed; we do need far better environmental regulations and actual enforcement of animal welfare laws would actually help small farmers by driving factory farmers' compliance costs.
11) That might be a good idea for a new cooperative business model, but I'm not completely sure about converting everything into co-ops yet.
12) 65 is a fine retirement age, and some increase in benefits is a good idea. If you want to do that, then uncap the FICA so that it applies to all income, not just the first $106,000.
13) Define "very rich" as estates above $100 million, and I'll say yes. Also, I want to see the return of the estate tax at 75%.
14) No. Private property is not evil and there's no reason to ban it.
15) NO, just hold homeschoolers to the same national standards as everyone else. Not all homeschoolers are religious fanatics; my mom is center left and she chose to homeschool me to avoid dumping me in a dysfunctional inner-city school system. Don't take away that option for people who might otherwise need it, just make evolution a requirement for promotion to ninth grade for all students, including the homeschooled.
16) 18 works fine. Just lower drinking and firearms licensing ages to 18 as well as driving, consent, etc.
17) NO. The death penalty needs to be overhauled, and I would support a temporary moratorium on executions until each inmate's case got a full review by an independent commission. That said, there are people on this planet who do not belong there, and I support removing them from it as necessary. Ending life in prison is just plain crazy; there's also a whole class of people who don't merit execution but who can't be released into the population either.
18) We have political prisoners?
19) Iraq is winding down, but I wouldn't advise walking away from Afghanistan just yet.
20) Agreed, although we should begin paying down our debt as soon as possible using increased revenue from taxes.
21) NO. I believe that firearms should be available for private ownership, conceal and carry, etc. assuming a clean criminal record, clean mental health history, no domestic violence troubles, no active restraining orders (except in special cases), and no alcohol problems.
22) Absolutely.
23) I wouldn't go with complete debt forgiveness, but debt evaluation and options for writedowns and forgiveness on a case-by-case basis would be a good idea.
24) Legalize and tax weed and nonaddictive psychedelics, but serious stuff like PCP, MDMA, cocaine, heroin, etc. needs to stay illegal.
Jesus, this movement had more credibility and more power before this... retarded list of demands. You just sound like a bunch of retarded liberal arts majors. I thought it was actually good that the media said the movement didn't have any real direction, because then that allowed people to formulate their own opinions and made the movement more mysterious, now the cats out the bag... you took away all the doubt. Now, I think the movement was great, because it brought attention a corrupt system. I think you attacked the wrong sub-system. I think the government was more to blame for the economic woes. They are the ones that implemented the policies that created this calamity. Also, I hear a lot of you saying they are shocked no one is in jail for this, but no one in wall street (to my knowledge) did anything illegal. Though immoral, not illegal. The government created the moral hazards.
BChang1987 is a troll. He just wants us to look sooo bad.
Let's not waste any more time on him.
I think you're right. boy do i feel stupid right now
"Create a single-payer, universal health care system.
Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers.
End the 'War on Drugs'."
These are the only ones that make sense.
This would reduce the country to a state of poverty and crime. Shorter workdays = less productivity, no private debt, high taxes on the rich (but they are no more), no public debt limits. I could go on, but I'd rather just move to Mexico. The thing that is most troublesome is that this isn't an isolated thought. I've heard similar things from many people.
Some wolves are fairly clever. They mix reality in with absurdity and try to pass it off as the beliefs of a "movement". It's how they attempt to discredit "movements". Fortunately, the large majority of OWSers are too smart and see right through this kind of BS.
I've heard a lot of these claims that this is a plant by an agent provacateur on here. Thing is, I don't think anyone who has claimed as much has ever actually BEEN to Zucotti park or any other occupy encampment. I don't think they've ever read the signs, heard the chants or spoken to any of the occupiers. If they had, they'd realize that, as utterly insane as every entry on this list is, it is well within the scope of beliefs being represented there by many of the protesters. Guess what, folks? This isn't a "Fox news" plant. This is, seriously, what many occupiers want. Just talk to them, yourselves. They have no problem admitting it.
Is it the position of the majority of the occupiers? No, probably not. But it's certainly a good possibility that it's the opinion of one of them.
And the truth is... until there is one, sanctioned, "official" list of demands to trump the others, then every individual occupier's insane list is, by default, "official".
That's the price they pay for playing this game of intentionally not offering an official position- yes, it gives you the "Oh, we're just leaderless" card to play... but it also makes every nutjob in a Che tee shirt your leader at times like this.
This sounds like pure Rousseauean coercion to me...that was a Bible for The French Revolution...and we all know how that ended.
Good luck living in your phony, idealized anarchist world, morons.
A guaranteed Minimum Income for all. More importantly, an agreed MAXIMUM Income (suggested $100,000 per year). To be agreed by referendum/preferendum of all the people. Below is a text version of a flyer (written by me) which you can use/adapt as necessary.....
Politics is about power. Money is power. If democracy is to mean anything, all power, including money power, must be democratically limited by the people.
Don’t continue to be turkeys voting for Christmas. Don’t buy the drivel from the rich and their hangers-on about high incomes being necessary to attract “talent”, the lie that “If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys”. We paid fortunes, and continue to pay fortunes, and we still got monkeys. These overpaid fools are continuing to cause crisis after crisis, while ordinary people’s lives are destroyed.
!00,000 euro per year should be more than enough for anyone. It should provide more than enough incentive to set up a business. It allows for the fact that some people work harder, or smarter, or more effectively than others. It could be a temporary or a permanent measure. It could be modified/ revised/fine-tuned or repealed every five or ten years.
Many democracies already have a minimum income. It is time to evolve further, towards real democracy, where the really important decisions are taken by the people, rather than by elitist political/bureaucratic cabals in cahoots with unelected business or financial sharks.
One can understand elites and their useful idiots frowning and shaking their heads and giving fifty reasons why it could never work, but for those on low or middle income to not even consider trying the idea is truly like turkeys continuing to vote for Christmas. As George Bush tried to say "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." But to be fooled continually, again and again, year after year, all your life, even when possible alternatives are proposed, is lunacy.
Freud thought that the obsession with money was rooted in inadequate potty-training, Likewise, the famous economist Keynes said that "The love of money as a possession as distinguished from the love of money as a means to the enjoyments and realities of life will be recognized for what it is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease". Even a rich stooge like Winston Churchill could acknowledge that (the people) "will not tolerate the existing system by which wealth is acquired, shared and employed. . . . They will set their faces like flint against the money power, heir of all other powers and tyrannies overthrown, and its obvious injustices."
VOTE FOR FULL DEMOCRACY
VOTE AGAINST THE MONEY TYRANNY
[Removed]
Right-wing trolls manipulating democratic systems. Whodathunkit.
Left wing loon looking for a handout
I'm there right there with you. I had some one shoot one of my cows on my property. When I heard the shot and went to investigate, I found three people field dressing my property. First they said they thought it was a deer, then it was, "well... you don't want it to go to waste do you? When the police took them away in handcuffs, they were yelling they should have the right to hunt wherever they wanted. Then in court it was I had more cows and it wasn't that big a deal, they were just trying to feed their families. I have yet to see any compensation, but I have seen those guys around town.
Next time I just want to shoot 'em hang them on the fence next to the big sign that says NO HUNTING/PRIVATE PROPERTY.
This looks like a list of demands that was written by Rush Limpbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck to discredit the OWS movement.
Yeah, but surprise, it was written by you idiots.
Why? Because this is the stupid crap they really, really believe in, and you're shocked, because you might actually have more than one brain cell, and have just realized how stupid some of these people can be, but you can't really accept it, so you're trying to find an "out"..... blaming others for your own stupidity.