Forum Post: OWS - What would Jesus do?
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 4, 2011, 1:54 a.m. EST by sunbird1
(10)
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Although many involved in this movement have issues with organized religion, a huge percentage of the American population identifies with Christian teachings. Much of Christianity in this country has been mesmerized by capitalistic materialism to the point where some conservative fundamentalists act as if it were a religious doctrine. In fact nothing could be further from the truth.
It should be constantly pointed out that the teachings of Jesus are clearly in line with the objectives of the Occupy movement. Anyone who honestly reads the words of Jesus would be hard pressed to deny that he was a non materialistic pacifist who disapproved of the excessive accumulation of wealth ( i.e. the 1%) and believed that those with more have an obligation to help those with less. He pointed out that one cannot serve both God and “Mammon” ( material wealth, riches) and advised the rich man to give his money to the poor. He despised economic corruption driving out the "money changers" from the temple . (Who do you think the "money changers" would be in today's society ? ) see this amazing painting that says it all: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CiY7m2yuxvI/TsDF9lJ3NTI/AAAAAAAAHFk/26pwQFnGSSI/s1600/boris-olshansky-jesus-and-the-money-changers-2006.jpg
Bottom line is that Christians (especially fundamentalists) need a reality check on what Jesus really taught about these things. They need to stop twisting his teachings to rationalize their own inconsistencies and protect their comfort zones. They need to face the economic, political and militaristic injustices in this world and ask themselves "What would Jesus REALLY do?"
Perhaps the Occupy movement (if it stays true to it’s peaceful and moral principles) can act as the “conscience” of all religious and ethical people, reminding them of what they know is right. If a movement of moral integrity can awaken the conscience of the majority to action, then it will change the world.
I care less what Jesus would do (and I will tell you why) but I think this story below from Mark 12 would illustrate what Jesus would do:
They came to him and said, "Teacher, we know you are a man of integrity. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?Should we pay or shouldn't we?" But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. "Why are you trying to trap me?" he asked. "Bring me a denarius and let me look at it."They brought the coin, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" "Caesar's," they replied. And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.
Jesus really did not care about money or property. He was concerned with the spirit and eternal things. The apostle Paul preached you must expect to suffer here on earth as Jesus did, and even if wrong things were done to you, you must turn the other cheek. In short Jesus would not care about OWS.
I disagree with Jesus on this... more below...
Now here is my humble opinion as a former follower of Jesus. I think it is probable that a charismatic leader and wise teacher named Jesus lived in Israel about 2000 years ago, was regarded as the messiah by a few Jews (likely thousands but definitely dozens) according to old testament tradition of the Jewish religion. He probably did get crucified on a cross, as that was a common Roman death sentence, and it probably was for an uprising that was perceived as threatening to the Romans or else some powerful Jews who did not beleive in him as messiah (or both.)
But I do not believe that he was son of a real supernatural god that currently exists, I do not believe in his miracles, I do not believe that he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, or that he died for our salvation. I am agnostic. I do not KNOW whether these things are true or false. They are possible but highly improbable, and as an agnostic and skeptic I would not believe something so improbable without indisputable proof, and therein lies the problem, because followers need to believe by faith.
The main reason I will not believe by faith, and that I need proof, is because the whole story (or very important parts of it) could be made up just to control the masses. As soon as you open yourself up to believing ANYTHING by faith (I mean religious faith, not faith in yourself) then you have adopted a mindset where others can easily manipulate you (i.e. cults, group think.) I believe Christianity and many other large organized religions are cults used to control massive amounts of people, and get them all thinking in a similar way, so that these large amounts of people can be controlled with the same messages and reasoning. Because large religions like christaianity are very old and very widespread cults, they escape the jujudgement of upstart cults even though the practice the VERY SAME methods of control and manipulation.
As soon as you have a large group of people who can think and reason for themselves you have a lage amount of divergent ideas and it is extremely tough to craft a message that will appeal to the majority. If you look at the group in any large church, the pastor and the religion has a huge amount of control and influence over his flock by design. And this power is very easily corrupted. Even though I think some pastors genuinely believe what they preach, even a majority of them, I cannot endorse this opening up of the mind for blind 'faithful' control.
Leaders love religion, because now they have a way to convince large groups of people who have engaged in group think. A candidate can think of one clear message to win over a large swath of religious people of the same religion, regardless of his true beliefs or the intentions he intends to truly take (Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich both flip flop multiple times even in the same week based on who they are talking to about abortion and other topics of religious importance... and the republicans are not the only ones guilty of it, but most politicians.)
So I believe that organized religion is mind control, and the most powerful people in this world (I mean above but including the president, the ones really pulling the strings) probably claim that they believe in the same religion as the majority, but really they don't. It is just a convenient way of control. As for christians, the powerful probably laugh at all the stupid sheep that they can take advantage of, because Christians are supposed to turn the cheek and care about things eternal. Christians are not supposed to be greedy and are supposed to forgive those that are. Christians are supposed to not kill, be violent, or lie, but are supposed to forgive those that are. Man if Jesus is not real, then the powerful really have the christians by the balls.
People who can think for themselves and have highly divergent ideas are very dangerous to the established powers that be, for several reasons. They are much harder to convince and control as a group, and they are more likely to react in unpredictable threatening ways to the establishment. The establishment is much less certain about what they can get away with regarding people who are TOO independent or too FREE (thus the attacks on our bill of rights.) The powerful have become paranoid about all the wrong they have done, and rightfully so, and that is why their is this huge crackdown on our freddoms and civil rights, and why anyone who doesn't fall in line or is just too different from the masses is suspected of being a threat.
I am not anti freedom of religion though I think the religious are utter fools (I believe in my freedom to think that.) I am anti religious dogma and browbeating (no pressure religion hardly exists but it's the only way of practicing that I am ok with,) and I definitely am anti mandated religion which we appear to not have in the US in a MAJORITY of places.
And thus "man" has succeeded in dominating and controlling your mind!
Religion represses the reason and logic portions of the brains of the faithful. Making them susceptible to a religious/political message from the Tea Party Republicans.
If Jesus did not care about money why would he say this: "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god." .....hmmm?
he didn't care about money for him or his followers but he realized that money corrupted. I don't think he would fight for OWS against the corruption, he would spend time trying to convert OWSers to follow him instead. This is all of course based on a story that could be made up, but what I say is in line with the many years of brainwashing i got while growing up. I am not saying i am the authority, because I care not to be the authority on what i regard as a fairytale, but the people who taught me were pretty convincing for awhile, until I learned to think for myself.
Dirty hippie anarchist. Always hanging around whores, too. No kind of role model for the OWS kids.
Very thoughtful post below, Joe, didn't mean to pee on it. Forgive me!
no problem.
Rotunda689 - A few comments - Jesus said to the moneychangers "you have made it a den of thieves" indicating he did not have a high regard for their activities. I think creating economic justice in our society is something Jesus would support as it is an expression of compassion for others. Also, I think Christians ARE in serious trouble regarding following their conscience and should be glad for any reminders, reality checks and wake up calls wherever they may come from-- even OWS. God sometimes works in mysterious ways.
On one hand, I'm an atheist. On the other hand, Jesus was a real person and he would be right here in the midst of us, standing in solidarity. Jesus was executed by the state because his message was not welcome and was a danger to those in power. He was killed because he thought the rich should give money to the poor.
i would refer you to the Woody Guthrie song; Jesus Christ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDS00Pnhkqk
neweartnorder....Matthew 25:29 ............Jesus will give to those who already have and take from those who have nothing. He must've been a Republican.
Thanks Sunbird1 for taking the time to write this.
what would jesus do . . . .
well i dunno but according to the literature he's coming back, and when he does,
boy
is he gonna be pissed.
All I know is that when I did a Google image search for "Metapolitik" (the name of my website), I found this instead:
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/metapolitik/
...I'm not a religious man. But somebody out there certainly is.
http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse
sunbird1........Matthew 5:17 ................Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament.................................Matthew 10:34-36 ...........................Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword."
I thought Jesus wants us to sent all our money to the TV priest?
Jail the Banksters!
Jesus was against fighting the Roman tax collectors.
Jesus would have cast down these devils, these money changers, this criminal garbage they call the banksters. We need to do Jesus's work. To hell with them - every single bank criminal.
If Jesus were here, he'd be Occupying the churches.
My sister just sent me an email, forwarded rather, that preached the "correct" way to live and enumerated several characteristics of living as a true "american". I can't believe my own blood would be so misguided. I've got some family talking to do but I fear it will fall on deaf ears. Why are people so afraid of peace?
AMEN Jesus is misunderstood by "the church" because he was anti-organized religion. His only sermon given inside a building was his last and it was the last supper. Yes, the money changers killed him and co-opted his movement into organized religion. "Saint" Peter was spreading the word, not building a church. Jesus' words build my church has been misused and misquoted. When I see fancy church buildings, I know the congregation is NOT taking care of their community.
Give everyone free health insurance
yeaaaaa. that word "Free" bothers me.
nothing is free.
like the UK? best talk to them about how "Great" it is.
Probably better than having to pay a month's rent on a few inhalers
call me pessimistic. but trying to model OUR health care system based on what SOUNDS GREAT!! but turned out worse than what we have now doesn't sound appealing.
Are you referring to the infamous Obamacare or to the systems in other countries and states like Hawaii?
socialized healthcare?
as much as I dislike Obama I don't want to demonize the Idea of a better health care system by continuing to name them after people, hillary care, obama care whatever.
as far as I know it is the same thing. I could be wrong
unless there is some other way to get it "Free"
Yea I don't like calling it that either its just been called that so much the name kind of stuck. From what I know of it it is the opposite of what this country needs. It doesn't lower costs it just provides more people to be in the system. It is basically just throwing more money to pharmaceutical industries. It encourages more drugs and more treatment instead of trying to fix people's health problems. I have disagreed with it from the start but then I am someone who believes that the cost of healthcare should be as minimal as possible and free to those who can't afford even that. People shouldn't be spending 20%- 30% or more of their income on basic medication.
nice to meet you
You too. Nice that we can find some common ground.
correction ! give everyone health insurance that the 1% pays for.
Read my comments below about how the powerful want to use religion to control the masses.
The powerful want YOU to be moral so that you don't strike out against them, but they refuse to be held by the same morals so that they can reap the fat of the earth for their greedy selves.
If you really expect the powerful to get some morals then you are in for a rude awakening. You ever see a criminal on CSI or hear of a criminal that goes to INCREDIBLY GREAT lengths to elude his detection, and when he gets caught goes to INCREDIBLY GREAT lengths to hide or cover up the truth or hide behind some loophole. Well many of the super rich are just like this. As a matter of fact they have no problem stomping on below them (treating them as numbers) to get ahead and maintain power. Many of the filthy rich have instilled the mindset of sociopaths into their families in order to protect the family wealth... think of the Rothschild banking cartel for instance. They succeeded in taking over the world economy over a few centuries by indoctrinating their sons very well, telling them that the world is their oyster they just need to keep the masses down and controlled, and then manipulate the powerful by playing on their greed.
And you think moral preaching is going to undo this centuries of brainwashing of people who control the world's economy with their breath....
HA!
And to tell you the truth, most OWSers (myself included) have decided to join the movement because we care too much about our own personal wealth (and our childrens.) We care too much because we were raised in a culture that cares too much, and that is the whole reason the powerful are so rich. They make taking advantage of our greed into an art form. I'll be honest, even though I am aware of this in myself it will take me a lifetime to undo it. The best I can do is not teach that way to my kids... but they will go to public school and interact with other kids whose parents are not aware of the master plan. By the time they are teens they will be fully transformed into greedy parasites of the earth as i was. i can only hope to keep it in check a little bit by forming strong relationships with them and keeping their eyes open and not letting them be lulled to to a hypnotic selfish consumer me me me state.
Great post, lots to think about. It is hard to raise kids with the influences that exist in society. Hold them close and talk, share your dreams and opinions. At almost 60, I remember my father's words very well, and will be forever grateful he tried to make me a free-thinker. Thanks Papa, it worked.
That's very nice, dingy58
Maybe the powerful DO want to use religion to control the masses but that doesn't mean they're always going to. Be careful about stereotyping Christians here. There are as many varieties of us as there are OWsers. :) As for greedy parasites, I don't want my grandchildren to be that either but neither do I want them to inherit this kind of world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTLaEdGodBI
A majority of christians are genuiniely good people with good morals. Unfortunately a very very large majority of them are stupid sheep that can be taken advantage of, and some of them are. But alas, being stupid sheep is not limited to being christian. Fox news watchers like my father (definitley not a christian) are just as stupid and just as much sheep. Religion is not the only large institution that the powerful like, it's just the one that gets picked on less in this forum. I could talk all day about the media, but many other people have covered that one in depth. Religion and media, or equal mass deception for all. Pick your poison.
The arrogance of this post defies description. And you guys wonder why you are declining in popularity aong the average people...or should I say "stupid sheep."
Hey regarding religion, I would not consider myself even close to the majority of representing OWS. Many OWSers respect the sanctity of religion and I can live with that. As for me, sanctity my ass. The one thing I do agree on with OWS is that money from the wealthy and powerful needs to stop influencing the politicians that make the decisions for the 100%. Please go ahead and tell me if we can agree to disagree on my religious outlook but we can agree on that, because at this point it's what truly matters.
I have to say the "masses are asses" is the kind of elitist behavior that we should be working to resolve. It is bad enough that our government treats us as stupid sheep. We certainly don't need to take that stance with each other.
OK i'll tone it down. I see and understand your point rightaway. thanks for pointing that out.
No problem. It's easy to get frustrated with all that's going on. I might need a heads up on one of my comments back from you ;)
Amen to that! And if we remind our christian brothers( when a person is a christian, the whole of humanity is his brother- also from Jesus) of Jesus' words, they are responsive, and actually do see that OWS is more in line with their christian views, than either the GOP or DEMS
If jesus went to a protest he would be sprayed with tear gas, and told by Limbaugh to take a bath and get a job.
For 100's of years in the USA if you advocated that the poor should take un-eaten food from the rich you have been imprisoned for SEDITION.
FACT.
[Deleted]
Nah, that was Obama, not Jesus.
If jesus were here he would certainly smoke all the dmt
^_^
"do you think if jesus comes back he ever wants to see a f@ckin cross again?? He'll probably have an oozy on him and be yelling DAD they didn't get it!"
there is no evidence that jesus even existed outside of the story fed to us through the religious outlets. on the other hand, it has been proven that the story of jesus has been recycled and rewritten, taken from the ancient egyptian myth surrounding horus and isis. so the answer to what would jesus do is he would shine brightly and light the sky. the question is irrelevant to ocw. we are trying to move away from superstition which is just another form of control.
JESUS was a pro-life Democrat.
What would Jesus do. I have to first make some observations about what is going on here. There are some days when I come on here and just marvel at the brilliance of some of you folks and the freedom to exchange ideas in this way. There are other days when it just sounds like a lot of noise, sometimes a very ugly noise. I think Jesus would want people, regardless of whatever riteous anger you might be feeling, to be more respectful of each other. Perhaps he would quote the proverb "It is not good to have zeal without knowledge." Or "Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent." In other words if you have something good to say, then say it respectfully, otherwise just be quiet and listen. I look forward to OWS forming some leadership, maybe not one person but a group, as some have suggested. Jesus had the disciples, but early Christians also recognized that different people have different gifts. I think the truly gifted members of OWS should be identified and enlisted to use their talents, take on that responsibility of leadership because then we will cut back on some of the "noise." To those who would say "no leaders at all," no offense but I think this forum is a good example of how that does not work.
I don't understand. Are you saying a forum doesn't work because there is no guiding voice? This is one of the few places of anonymity to speak one's mind. It is working as a leaderless movement evidenced by these forums. I don't want some pseudo leader to look to for an answer. I'd rather have healthy discussion with my peers than be a yes man/woman to some sock puppet Obama figure.
Dingy58, No maybe the forum by necessity has to be chaotic but the movement doesn't have to be, is all I was saying..
I TELL you real from my heath if jebus alive today he would suiicide
Perhaps the OWS crowd, who had been the antithesis of the teachings of Jesus and teachings of the Christian church should read the Bible. It is far more concerned with the freedom of the individual and the protection of those freedoms from the domination of others. Jesus "advised" a person choose to give their wealth to those less fortunate, not that groups of greedy malcontents demand that mobs should strongarm wealth away from those who have it.
@ Toonces: I'm sorry but that is a very mistaken view of the OWS. There were many instances in the bible where God either led his people to safety or helped them fight an oppressor. And I think Goliath is going to go down.
The government is the oppressor, not businesses. Business has not the power to be an oppressor.
Jesus wasn't upset because they were money-changers, He was upset because they were doing it in the House of God.
And I agree about giving to the poor, but Jesus commanded us to give to the poor, not take from the rich and then give to the poor. Do I like what the rich do with their money? Of course not, but that doesn't mean it's right to take it from them. Shoot, I hate a lot of the things that poor and middle-class people do with their money - why should they be exempt? Busting the rich would only decrease any "good" things that they do manage to do (universities, hospitals, charities, etc.). You know that we can't take that money, put it in the hands of government, and expect them to act responsibly with it.
So what would Jesus do? He'd tell us to rely on God, not the money. He would advise us on how we should act, not on how we should require others to act. And most importantly He would probably be far more concerned with how poorly most Christians are living their lives these days than what a small (1%) group is doing with their money. We'd get a lot more done by helping each other than worrying about tax dollars from the rich.
Also, I think it's pretty clear in God's Word that the Holy Spirit is to be our "conscience" about what is right. If we as Christians need a group of people (that is admittedly non-Christian for the most part) to act as our conscience then we are in serious trouble.
Rotunda689 - A few comments - Jesus said to the moneychangers "you have made it a den of thieves" indicating he did not have a high regard for their activities. I think creating economic justice in our society is something Jesus would support as it is an expression of compassion for others. Also, I think Christians ARE in serious trouble regarding following their conscience and should be glad for any reminders, reality checks and wake up calls wherever they may come from-- even OWS. God sometimes works in mysterious ways.
Yes but we do have to live on this planet. I don't think that because we are Christians we have to lie down and suffer any oppression. We are trying to make a better world for our kids and their kids so we can't afford as they say, to be so heavenly minded we're no earthly good.
Another leftist that hates Christians yet talks about how great Jesus was, man do you guys ever take a look into the mirror
Jesus is a myth. He never existed. Jesus is a carbon copy of the Egyptian god Horus. When the Romans invaded Egypt, they incorporated many elements of Egyptian culture, including their gods. Christianity is a pedophile cult. No I'm not a jew.
False. Those things were added much later. The original 'christians' were actually a magic mushroom cult and pedophilia is a modern phenomenon. The word you are looking for is pederast anyways.