Forum Post: OWS Logo Fist; Real Nice and Friendly: The Socialist Logo
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 11, 2011, 11:52 p.m. EST by weeicemon
(15)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Fist images, in some form, were used in numerous political graphic genres, including the French and Soviet revolutions, the United States Communist Party, and the Black Panther Party for Self-defense.
And they say that OWS is not a socialist group
Your point?
Canada--I have a Canadian asking me 'your point?' Not known for having the sharpest tools in the shed. My point, eh, is that OWS claims no party affiliation so why the fist. Look, back bacon head, it's a gag--OWS is a socialist group everyone knows that, they put the stupid fist logo out there because they're idiots and morons and brain dead, but claim no affiliation to any party or group. They're hypocrites idiot. Go away and have a moosehead. Whew!
Yeah, poor old Canada. What with their unlocked doors, healthcare for everyone, and a murder rate that's a sliver or ours, even while that own more guns per person.
You think Americans have sharp tools? That's why we're broke, one of the most violent countries on the planet, increasingly under-educated, and killed more people in illegal wars than all the terrorism combined over the past 50 years? And Canadians are stupid? Um, yeah.
You sound like you're working on your advanced degree, pal. You know, what with epithets like "bacon head" and "morons" and "brain dead" to back up your razor sharp polemic. Yeah.
Speaking of going away, why don't you go hang out at a place that thinks like you do, you know, over at one of the Koch Astroturf front organizations, mmkay? Or maybe drunk dial that ex again? Just sayin'....
Peace.
ah-the ubiquitous 'Koch brothers" comment from the oh so nonpartisan OWSers. What, Georgy Soros was a real 'nice' billionaire while he bankrupted economies, huh? Like I always say to the OWSers you have such 'selective Wall Street hate"--I guess all of WS is not equal,right? Just the conservatives are bad. Well the Koch brothers didn't bankrupt countries, but your buddy Soros did so where is the outrage? Huh? none because he funds you loser, poser, hypocrite, zombie, greedy, hate America, socialist, rapist slobs.
When are you moving to Toronto? Or is it Quebec or Montreal? Please, respond back as to when you are moving. I want to know. And people ask me why I refer to the OWS as a hate-America group. Well the FBI agrees with me because you're in their crosshairs.
Dude, you don't want to know about anything your narrow view of the world doesn't already reveal to you. Cognitive dissonance on the far right is like a national past time. I live in Vermont, and I'm fighting to help improve my country. The people who argue that things are just fine or that if we'd only get out of the way and the let corporations run everything are the main threat to the viability of this country.
As for the Koch brothers, no, they just bought your astroturfed movement (well done!) and made secret sales to Iran! Nice.
But again, why are you here? What is the point? Why aren't you over at one of the myriad "We're the real tea party" sites. Seriously, you can go be Mr. #1 with all the rest of the "We're #1" crowd. You can be #1 together.
Doesn't that sound nice? Yes it does...
VT--ah the land of Maple and the only socialist Senator--why am I not surprised by your rant--did you vote for Mr. Saunders? Rhetorical question. BTW I don't think you understand what cognitive dissonance is because there are no conflicts between the conservative movement and what works--you, the lemming and devotee of the fatally flawed throughout history socialism have the dissonance.
Attacking the 'right'-whew. I thought OWS was above such partisanship, but gee all I see is attacks on the right from the OWSers but none against the left. Attacks on Koch; none on the WS baron thief Soros. HMMM, gee, do y'think the zombie, braindead, loser, lazy, leftists, socialsit, rapist, criminal, greedy, hate-America OWSers are really just a front for the hate America, socialist left Obama crowd? If it is shhhhhh it'll be our little secret.
Yeah, it's all about geographic location and innuendo--not actual data, isn't it? It never is for the far right. Lots of huffing and puffing, but not a lot of real data thrown around. You use ad hominem attacks as if that actually makes for a real argument.
As for cognitive dissonance, well, this is an easy one: Bush ran up the national debt and spent trillions on illegal wars. Where was your outrage then? Oh. Wait. There was none.
Ten years of Bush tax cuts have resulted in: oh, wait, endless stagnation!
Democrats are the big spenders? No. In fact, Reagan was the first president to run up hundred billion dollar deficits, and Bush was the first president to submit a $1 trillion deficit.
Okay, cognitive dissonance thang sorted.
The rest of that first paragraph has no substance; it's just adjectival ranting.
Let's see about your second paragraph:
"Attacking the right...etc." Well, this really isn't about "right/left." It's about priorities, facts, and logic. Hey, let me make it easy on you: Other countries aren't mired in ideological fervor. They just have priorities and execute. Take Finland. They're one of the most educated countries on the planet. They're well off. They're always at the top of the happiness index. Education is inexpensive. Housing is widely available. They're not wild eyed socialists (ever heard of "Nokia"?). They just have priorities--lots of human priorities--and they decide how to allocate their resources. They, put simply, advocate the greater good over the exalting the individual. We do the opposite here.
But hey, keep using ephithets like zombie, braindead, loser...etc. or try to avoid vilifying those you disagree with and use actual facts to make your case.
Click on the NYCGA button at the top of this page to read the minutes, the interactions among the groups, etc. But I'm guessing you won't.
Educate thyself. And if you can prove any of your delusional madness, then people will listen. Otherwise, you're just a crank...
Obama spent $5 trillion in 3 years? 9.1% unemployment? Bush, spent $4 trillion in 8 years, avg unemployment 5.5%. Obama, America credit rating downgraded. Obama, no national budget in over 900 days. Obama-signs Dodd/Frank bailout bill. Obama-ObamaCare costing over trillion dollars and stagnating business growth.
Obama would be doing cartwheels up & down PA Avenue if he had G.W. Bush's economic record.
I mean Jr. do I need to go on. Listen I traipse these FACTS out all the time with you socialists and your all in denial contending with your 'cognitive dissonance'. Finland. Finland? Effective tax rates of 70%? Well socialist then where will you be moving to Helsinki or Espoo-be my guest. If it's so great then move there--who's stopping you? What oh the greatest country on the face of the earth built by Judeo-Christian conservative founding fathers who believed in hard work is stopping you? Can’t beg for money in Finland? Oh, then you'll stay and like a good parasitic socialist stink up a public park and sit around on your fat, lazy hate-America, loser, parasitic, criminal, socialist ass begging for other’s hard earned money just like a bum, huh?
Listen loser just because you preach a bunch of self-serving arrogant BS that no one believes doesn’t make you any different than some lazy bum asking for other people’s money. Socialists like you have been around for hundreds of years like roaches and God-fearing decent people like most Americans will always have to eradicate you.
Oh, btw, I thought OWS was so non-partisan. Where are your attacks on Soros and Obama, Pelosi & Reid? ROFL. Such BS you are. Such major BS.
Bush doubled the national debt in his term in office. Obama inherited it, and continued to spend on illegal wars. Revenue receipts decreased because the economy crashed on Bush's watch, as the policies started under Reagan for deregulation continued their course to disaster.
"Obama would be doing cartwheels up & down PA Avenue if he had G.W. Bush's economic record."
That's hilarious--actually saying that Bush's record is good. Very funny stuff. You're wrong about the deficit (and national debt), because you don't understand the process:
The fiscal year begins October 1 of every year. The fiscal policies from the previous year "run through" the following year.
Obama wasn't responsible for the $1.3 trillion in accumulated debt from October 1, 2008 through September 30, 2009--George W. Bush was responsible for it. Here's how it works:
Bush "inherited" a national debt from Clinton starting at about October 1, 2001, of $5.8 trillion. The national debt increased under Bush to $11.9 trillion--more than double the inherited debt.
Obama's "inherited" national debt from Bush--again, assuming the previous president's budget continued through September 30, 2009--was $11.9 trillion. The debt increased to $14.6 trillion by the end of August 2011.
Dates are important. Facts are important. The numbers from the treasury don't lie:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Px-2L2o5HCQ/ToE06g9CVII/AAAAAAAAAZo/WRV0ouAxvrA/s400/national+debt+-+2000+-+2011.png
Obama did sign TARP into law, that's true. That was also begun under Bush, but Obama continued the policy. In fact, aside from the healthcare bill, Obama has basically continued Bush's policies--including the tax cuts he signed into law last December.
Well, you do know that the highest tax rates were under a republican president, right? And people were doing fine. Finland is one of the happiest countries on earth--and they're happy because they have flattened out the distribution of wealth. It's not about moving to Finland, xenophobe, it's about learning what works in other countries, instead of shouting empty phrases about being "The greatest judeo-christian...etc." on the planet.
One last thing, "Junior." I'm 52. I own a very nice home and probably have more money than you--not that it matters. I worked for everything I got. And as for "eradicating" people like me? I don't think so. You'd be surprised how many of us "godless liberals" can fend for ourselves. We certainly have you "outgunned" intellectually.
Peace and good luck with your angry, violent, inability to interact with others who aren't like you.
So socialism is a party now and not an ideology? And please, spare me your insults, that's no way to engage in civil discourse.
Fatass.
http://www.sp-usa.org/
Ok- My promise to myself--I have enough braindead, zombie, mushead, lead paint chip eating OWSers I have to deal with, but I refuse to respond any longer to known Canadians.
I didn't say that there was no socialist party. I guess you can't read or something.
And believe me, if I never had to talk to another American again I would be more than pleased. So do me a favor and don't respond to this.
yes you did write sarcastically that "So socialism is a party now...?" trying to get me because you thought that there was no socialist party, right? Look don't walk it back it's too late. There is something called 'google' on your computer- learn about that before responding OK? Bobs your uncle moron.
Are you dense? You thought I was trying to trick you into thinking that there was no socialist party by pointing out that you don't seem to know the difference between an ideology and a political party?
Hint: And ideology is a system of beliefs, in this case political beliefs. A political party is a group formed around a political ideology.
you know what the only thing worse than a Canadian is right?
i'll bite, what?
A French Canadian
hahahahahahhahahha--get that ConEd?? ROFL
Ahaha, yeah, Quebecois are pretty awful. I've got a joke too.
An American walks into a bar. He gets drunk and unruly and starts yelling and throwing shit. He pisses in some guy's beer, gropes someone's girlfriend, picks a fight with the smallest guy in the bar and then brags about it, claiming that he was "totally comin' at me." He then gets judgmental about everyone's morality and scolds a man for cheating on his wife even though he does the same thing almost nightly. He then slips in a puddle of beer and hits his head on a table, and everyone laughs, causing him to get really angry and he yells at everyone about how he's the coolest and strongest guy in the bar and that everyone's just jealous.
The raised fist is a symbol of solidarity. See my comment above for its origins. As to the Soros connection read this:
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/10/13/on-george-soros-occupy-wall-street-and-reuters/
http://anarchitext.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/soros-ows/
Nice try--Soros got to Reuters and they tried to walk it back. Read my link and weep.
And I'm sure I won't convince you but I still want to hear your outrage against Soros? Soros is an int;. trader who bankrupts countries. Where's your outrage and what are you afraid of? OWS certainly has no reservations about attacking the Koch brothers and they're not even WS traders --they actually make something. You attack republican politicians and conservative commentators, but where is your attack on Obama, Pelosi, Reid and MSNBC?
Where are your attacks on hate-America Soros, Obama and the lying lefty media.? They voted for and supported bailouts and produced Dodd/Frank.!! Where is your outrage? Why aren't you marching on the White House? BS--you're a bunch of zombie. loser, lemming, braindead, stupid pawns for the left. You're democrats--posers. Nobody buys your bs.
COINTELPRO was the FBI acronym for 'Counter Intelligence Program'. COINTELPRO not only infiltrated domestic antiwar and civil rights protest groups, it also created them. By 1968, the largest leading 'counterculture' groups were entirely FBI/CIA controlled.
In fact the leading 'Anti-Establishment' figures of the late 60's early 70's were outed years later as having been double agents for the CIA.
LSD promoter Harvard Dr. Timothy Leary; feminist icon and co-founder editor of MS Magazine, Gloria Steinem -- who persists today as an icon of feminism.
COINTELPRO SDS LOGO c.1969 - the closed fist
COINTELPRO never went away, it got privatized.
ORGANIZED BY A SERBIAN OUTFIT
OCCUPY WALL STREET and the OCCUPY TOGETHER MOVEMENT is the work of SERBIAN contract revolution organizers the CENTER FOR APPLIED NONVIOLENT ACTION AND STRATEGIES [C.A.N.V.A.S] in Belgrade and it's field operative organizer company, "OPTOR!"
So don't you believe it when ABC says "Everybody and nobody are in charge...." or the Guardian hints, "rumors persist the group "Anonymous" is behind the Occupy Together Movement".
http://www.henrymakow.com/occupy_wall_street_is_cointelp.html
It's funny. Being one of the very first people to start occupying back in Sept 17, to hear these weird conspiracy theories about "who is behind" OWS.
I wish we had such powerful backers. lol
but why the raised fist logo ? it is a historic logo for communism ? isn't there a better symbol ?
The raised fist logo is a symbol of solidarity, nothing more. It was first used in WW II by resistance fighters in the Balkans (I think, the Balkans) in their struggle against the Nazis.
Some marxist organizations use it. Can't let that hurt a good symbol. many other organizations use it, marxists don't have a monopoly on the raised fist. its an iconic symbol. Also, many of us involved with OWS
areanti-capitalist. Not everyone who is opposed to capitalism wants a state-controlled economy. Those aren't the only two options---- we can manage our lives without oppressive institutions like corporations or states.what we have in this country is most certainly not capitalism . . . or a free market . . . the regulations that helped to preserve some semblance of a free market and capitalism have been systematically destroyed, anarchy is not the answer. it would only empower the .01% even more. and that is my only concern . . .
Capitalism is not the same thing as laissez faire capitalism. The fact that state interventionism exists doesn't mean that an economic system shouldn't be qualified as "Capitalism". Mixed economies
arecapitalist economies. Corporatism is a form of capitalism.I agree with you the American economy (which is actually the world economy) is not characterized by by genuine "free-markets". This is because "free-markets" are a rhetorical fiction used to justify the removal of environmental and labor protections. Even the Freemarketeers like Ronald Reagen actually implemented a great deal of state-intervention, subsidy, and protectionism----- when it served the interests of multinational firms. All of the "Sink or swim" "meritocracy" stuff only applied to starving sweatshop workers, not to bankers and corporations.
As for that last part of your comment, I'm not certain how advocating for the abolition of the ruling class' standing armies is going to further "empower" them. I'm not sure i follow you.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capitalism
cap·i·tal·ism [kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] noun an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.
Mercantilism and/or fascism more accurately define the U.S. economy, in my humble opinion.
But, as to my concerns regarding anarchy . . . Preface to "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution," by Anthony Sutton
"Since the early 1920s, numerous pamphlets and articles, even a few books, have sought to forge a link between "international bankers" and "Bolshevik revolutionaries." Rarely have these attempts been supported by hard evidence, and never have such attempts been argued within the framework of a scientific methodology. Indeed, some of the "evidence" used in these efforts has been fraudulent, some has been irrelevant, much cannot be checked. Examination of the topic by academic writers has been studiously avoided; probably because the hypothesis offends the neat dichotomy of capitalists versus Communists (and everyone knows, of course, that these are bitter enemies). Moreover, because a great deal that has been written borders on the absurd, a sound academic reputation could easily be wrecked on the shoals of ridicule. Reason enough to avoid the topic.
Fortunately, the State Department Decimal File, particularly the 861.00 section, contains extensive documentation on the hypothesized link. When the evidence in these official papers is merged with nonofficial evidence from biographies, personal papers, and conventional histories, a truly fascinating story emerges.
We find there was a link between some New York international bankers and many revolutionaries, including Bolsheviks. These banking gentlemen — who are here identified — had a financial stake in, and were rooting for, the success of the Bolshevik Revolution.
Who, why — and for how much — is the story in this book." -- Antony C. Sutton, March 1974
http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolution/index.html
Reasonable people have suggested that the US economy is best characterized as a no-colonial mercantilism or fascism and not capitalism. Most people use the term more loosely to include mixed economies. This is more a matter of definition and semantics not really important. I agree with you that the current American financial system is not actually based on a "free market" system. But I would like to stress that genuine "free market" capitalism has never actually existed (because it is inherently unstable) and the closest historical approximations to a true laissez faire system are the US Robber Baron era or Modern day Somalia.
As for the Bolshevik question. I'm not sure how this theory relates to what we are talking about. Supposing this conspiracy theory is in fact true, what does Bolshevism have to do with this? I want to be clear: Marxists are not the only group that uses the raised fist. It was/is used by a variety of people including: Jewish defense league, Women's lib, national equality march, earth first etc. etc.
Bolshevik Ideology calls for establishing a "dictatorship of the proletariat" ruled by a "vanguard party" that will seize concentrated state-power and create and autocratic party elite. OWS explicitly opposes this ideology and calls for decentralized direct democracy and demands respect for the autonomy of individuals and voluntary association. We have actually caught a lot of criticism from Leninists who feel that our organizational model is "inefficient" and "ineffective" (i.e. is not open to being co-opted by them)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Makow complete crazy person.
personal attacks are the last stand in a debate . . .
redirection and deflection are a way of subverting a debate.
exactly - you post a link for henry makow on wikipedia and follow the link with the words "complete crazy person"
the best way to derail suspicion is to blow it out of proportion before it gets to far along, that way anyone that even touches the topic will be assumed not to be credible(conspiracy nut). fire with fire baby. by the way, your location is bs too.
that certainly fits the establishment mode of operation . . .now you attack my location ? what
LOL. Very funny stuff. Thanks for the entertainment and--wait. Shh. Did you just hear that? I thought I heard voices on the phone. Or clicking. Or, something. The neighbors are in on it, I think. No, really, they're listening. I know they're part of it. They're always treating me strangely and looking at me like there's something wrong.
But there's something wrong, alright--with everyone who doesn't get what I get, get it?
here's a new website for you: http://www.occupyparanoiddelusionalbullshit.com
Peace.
actually i hope you are correct
There's no need to hope about it or anything else. Dude, instead of espousing apocryphal bullshit, why not read the actual minutes of the General Assembly. Why not go to the groups themselves? It's all publicly available. The form of democracy used by OWS is incredibly transparent--our democracy should be half as transparent.
Do the fucking research. It's not rocket science, but it's harder than spouting meth-inspired nonsense.
Here it is: http://www.nycga.net/
Nothing shadowy or conspiratorial going on here. And if Soros was running things--or tried to--there would be an outcry heard around the world, because everything from the cleaning up the park to expenditure of funds is addressed in the General Assembly, which is recorded and transcribed--and retweeted by many people on the ground--and the facilitators are rotated so that no one person speaks for the whole.
So unless you do that homework, you really have nothing of value to add other than imaginary, fearf-mongering b.s., okay?
thanks-dead on. When does OWS see it's last days? Soon?
There is a verse in the Bible, when Joseph was sold by his brothers into slavery . . they meant it for evil but God meant it for good. - that is a rough paraphrase.
Hopefully, good may come out of it . . .
It was used in the Spanish Civil War as an anti-fascist salute.
the KKK uses The Cross as a symbol, so do all 1 billion of the world's Christians. So by your logic all Christians are owned/run by the KKK. that's really shocking. Then again the Pope was in the Hitler Youth.
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It is actually an instruction illistratration on how to properly hold your hand while fisting your fellow occupyer.
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How about using the international sign for tuberculosis,...or a guy crapping in a bucket?
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OWS is into Fisting. Big deal.
Maybe they will find Rock Hudsons wristwatch.
hahahahhahahahahahahha
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Its not socialist at all, it is entitlementism, a new form of values that requires a person just to be, and then just being allows them to demand a certain level of living.
oh you mean like the banksters ? ? ?
rofl