Forum Post: OWS is just the beginning
Posted 13 years ago on Dec. 1, 2011, 8:02 p.m. EST by sampson
(34)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Here's the thing people...
This has been an organic grass roots movement, that started with us being disenfranchised with the way things are ran in this country... on multiple levels. This wasn't started by electing a leader, and telling them to change things for us in the current system... we've tried that, the system is broken. This was us standing up together and shouting, "Things need to Change". Most of us can't get jobs, and those of us that have jobs, we're worked to death, for pocket change... Overworked & underpaid.
We've spoken up, we've made our concerns known. That was stage 1.
Stage 2 will involve us determining how to more efficiently make change. Will it be deciding on a leader? Will it be working within our current system? Or will we defy the current system and set up our own?
This is the very tip of the iceberg. Things are going to change.
Frankly, I think we are still in the very, very, very early stages of stage 1 (whatever that is) we need to organize, organize, organize until we have 10 or 20 million people in the streets. That will be time enough to talk about what to do next.
a set of specific demands need to be agreed on. With out demands how can they change anything? to suit us? OWS demands need to be made public so the public can decide weather to join the group or form a new one that represents their goals, and thus further splintering the possible power.
No set of demands is likely to be agreed upon any time soon by the NYC GA. What I mean by any time soon is the next several years. The Demands Working Group can't even agree among itself on a common set of demands, much less convince a much more skeptical GA.
Frankly, that's fine with me. The very fact that the Demands Working group is having such a problem coming up with a common set of demands demonstrates it's difficulties. That is, the divisive nature of demands themselves. For me also, there is a broader problem, which is why, even if a common set of demands were presented, it would have difficulty passing the GA.
My problem with demands is embodied in one slogan I saw: "Demands Put Somebody Else In Charge Of Your Happiness." In other words, its up to us, not a matter of asking somebody else or some other insittution to help us.
More militantly the same perspective was put: "Occupy Everything, Demand Nothing."
Most recently the one demand I saw which really appealed to me was: "We Demand That You Stop Asking Us What Our Demands Are!"
This is no joke. It is as serious as a heart attack.
OWS HAS a program which is as public as it can make it given its present resources. That is the Declarartion of the Occupation of New York City, available at this website, elsewhere on the web and as a hard copy in several places.
occupy everything and demand nothing will get you....wait for it.....nothing. IF OWS wants the total public support that it needs they need to stop being silly and begin to chart a course to where we should be(i think a lot of people think the OWS people are silly and smelly). If they refuse to do that, they will just be problems with no solutions, people need to hear the solution when they first hear about the problem then they can quickly decide what side they will be on. If they make demands then the demands can be worked towards. If OWS doesn't want demands met then what the shirt are they doing? Is it just a get together? a happening? a fun camp out? OWS will fall away from public view as winter comes. If it can emerge in spring with a "plan" then it will or will not draw the rest of the people it needs for success. If the "hidden" non - leaders are not good leaders all this effort will be lost. There are people waiting to jump in and help when the time is right, and the cause is just, but if the leadership is silly with all this public time then all the time will be wasted and a new group may form with a set of demands to be met, that is how things change. Look at what it took to begin prohibition for a example. A group of "dry's" had a demand, they wanted alcohol illegal, they had a plan they had goals, and they steam rolled everyone to get what they wanted and they were only a small % of the people, but they were ORGANIZED and DETERMINED. Take note OWS, I want to know if I should jump in or walk away and bad mouth the efforts. I want to know if OWS is worth supporting or not. I am trying to decide right now to join or not, many others are also standing at the door, deciding
Why in the world should we make any demands on the very institutions that are responsible for creating the crisis to begin with?
I don't think OWS is at all silly and in the matter of only a few weeks it has managed to mobilized tens of thousands of people. Organizations dedicated to mobilizing people, with huge staffs of professional organizers, haven't been able to do anything like that in decades.
The solution, which you hear from OWS at at GAs all the time, is in the mirror.
It is most certainly no fun to sleep on concrete for several weeks, go without a shower, struggle every day just to find a place to urinate or deficate and then after all that get beaten up by police and jailed. Nothing fun in that.
You are looking at a process that will at least take years, probably decades and perhaps several lifetimes, from the perspective of a mere few weeks.
If you want to know if OWS is worth supporting look in a mirror. The answer is there.
your process might take 300 years if you have no direction how can you get anywhere? the mirror says see if you can join and help. So I came to see if I could fit in. A good organization would have a welcome committee to get people in the right places where they can help the most. OWS has only limited time to make this happen while a core of people could spend the rest of their life trying to change things their way. Many people will lend a hand only for so long as as long as there is progress of some kind. With no real progress you willk see your ranks shrink, slow at first them a full on bleed out.
Start immediately to define the possible planks and throw them out there for "people" to vote on so to determine the direction OWS is going to go. If you do not start soon many will tune out and drop out of the group.
I can not see OWS in my mirror, I see me and I know what I am willing to do if the conditions allow it. If conditions are staying wrong I will stay away. Can you afford to lose groups of people as you claim to represent 99% of the people?
If you support OWS and think that what it needs most is a welcoming committee, organize one. That is what is meant by looking in the mirror to find leadership. Don't look to somebody else in the movement to do what you think needs to be done. If you support the movement, join it and start doing what you think it needs to be doing. That's what everybody else in the movement is doing. Take responsibility for yourself, for your own ideas, for your own world view.
Why not just start my own group then? I would feel like I owned it then, and would feel free to lead like a leader with a vision and a destination in mind. You don't build a house on rented land do you? quote : If you support the movement, join it and start doing what you think it needs to be doing. : How do I know if I support it or not? no one has defined what they stand for yet and I don't want to join a group that might be totally against some of my core beliefs. And what is stopping the banks from hiring people to infiltrate OWS and turn it into a "lap dog" of current power and get OWS to do the dirty work of the banks and wall street. Boy would they laugh in the board rooms at that.?. I know when i look in the mirror I see a leader but I would lead in my direction, my way, and everyone would want to snipe at ideas and then it descends into madness, and it becomes a waste of time and energy. I am not power hungry so that "draw" won't work.
Precisely. That is exactly what OWS is all about. If there is not an occupation or a GA sufficiently close to you that you can participate in on at least a part time basis, then start one in your community or in your neigborhood or on your block or at whatever level is convenient to you and which you feel comfortable organizing. Don't worry about your organizing skills or lack thereof. "Professional" labor organizers have not been able in several decades to do what OWS amateurs have done in a matter of weeks.
Do you think giant corporations are screwing the American public? Do you think the banks got bailed out while the American public got sold out (a major chant of the movement)? If so you support the movement. That's all there is to it. You might not agree with this or that decision that this or that GA makes, or the decision of a particular Working Group or for that matter the decision of a particular individual who also supports OWS, but if you feel the distresses stated above, you support OWS. How much you support it and what you do with that support is up to you.
If you want more detail go to the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City available on this website and elsewhere on the web. It's only 600 words or so. It lists about 20 or so grievances. If you share those grievances, or most of them, then you support OWS. Again, what you choose to do with that support is entirely up to you.
What makes OWS very difficult to take over is its very decentralization and lack of an identifiable leadership. It would be extremely difficult to guide it in any particular direction. The decision making body is the GA and the principle of consensus makes decision making extremely difficult, but it also inhibits any kind of take over.
Few people active in OWS are power hungry and those who are don't tend to be taken very seriously by the group. Just because there is no centralized identifiable leadership doesn't mean that there is no leadership, but it tends to be fluid, passing from person to person depending on the issue and the context.
it is very hard to kill a multi headed snake that grows 2 new heads for every one you cut off. In some ways OWS is using this non-leadership to escape the direct scrutiny from the existing Government that wants this OWS group to become history. The problem with multi-headed snakes is that all the heads need to agree before the body of the snake can go in any direction except to strike at nearby objects, and that is slow and not time efficient. The movement needs a head that decides for the rest of the heads which way the body will slither. Rule by committee, might well be like "design by committee" no one gets what they want and the item is not as useful as if a inspired inventor did the whole project, and it takes a lot longer to get where you are going. I'll call you the welcoming committee for now, thanks for the direction "Declaration of the Occupation of New York City available on this website" I'll go read, ty ty ty
Most OWS activists are firmly committed to its horizontal style of organization. That being the case how do you propose to win over a consensus in OWS (its current decision making model) that would go on to adopt a vertical model and a singular leader? It's not a matter of what OWS should or should not do. It's a matter of how you think one could go about getting OWS to do what you think it ought to do or needs to do.
I can lead but I do not want to. It is a LOT of work to lead correctly. Correctly being a SERPENT to those that you lead. Your desires would come last. Your focus would be to find out what "we the people" want and find a way to give it to them. Leadership is supposed to be a service to those lead, not a way of making yourself bigger than life and enjoying the POWER that comes from leading. I used to own and run a Corp. so I probably would be viewed as the enemy, another loss for OWS. And another reason why the only way I would lead is to be forced to do so. Anyone seeking leadership is not qualified because they were SEEKING to become the leader. Feminists can get mad at this now, the leader of the family also has a very hard job to do. That is a very hard job to do. To lead a group and make sure their needs are being met and that they are happy and feel content is no easy thing to do, and it can NOT be done from the top by a power hungry person (the kind of leader we are most aware of). When I ran my corp. I was in the position of SERVENT of my employees, and their needs came before my needs. There was profit sharing that paid monthly, and business bought lunch for everyone every day. If they had special needs I would find ways to serve them so they could serve the Corp. My wages were close to the wages of my employees. Most of my employees were very loyal and would go the extra mile without hesitation if needed. When both sides serve the other this is the best way I know how to proceed. Singular leaders....there were kings of old that also treated their "subjects" good and fair, these were beloved leaders and they were singular. Keep a open mind so better ideas can get in.
If one does not have the time, energy, inclination, talent or skills to lead in the traditional sense, one kind of leadership is to find people who can lead in your stead, who can do the sort of things that you yourself would want to do if you had the time, energy, inclination talent or skills.
We seem to be having a lot of difficulty in communicating here. There is a lot of leadership in OWS, tremendous skill sets. But very little ego, less than I have seen in nearly 50 years of left activism. Few people in OWS "seek" leadership. Those who do tend not to be taken seriously. Leadership tends to fall to people on a temporary and contingent basis depending on the context and the issue.
Leadership tends to fall to people on a temporary and contingent basis depending on the context and the issue. I will be watching to see how that goes. I'll hang around for a while and see if I fit in or not. I would hope that there would be a way for 99% of us to fit in and participate.
I am not near any big city. I am way way out in the north woods. In a area of very low population density, gotta love it here.
Where exactly are you going to hang around? What occupation are you near? Are you closer to a GA that does not have an occupation?
Great thread!
Stage 2 is right here.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-only-issue-the-only-issue-get-money-out-of-pol/
EXACTLY! Money out of politics
Help spread the word. And don't forget to sign the petition.
As much as I would like to see OWS succeed in it's initial reason for forming (ridding corruption from Wall St) and support it for that reason alone... I don't see how OWS can achieve anything in it's current state.
After going over everything I possibly can in at the GA's website (minutes of the GA, Working Groups and Spokes Council, as well as forums of the same) the movement in NYC seems to be in a constant state of contention over what should be done about anything.
There is an enormous amount of skepticism regarding the Finance Group, there is a feeling that the GA's are no longer representing a major portion of the people of the movement. It's hard to tell what the movement is really about, there are so many factions to it and they all are clamoring to have their own agendas realized.
While the movement has morphed into much more than I think anyone ever expected it to it now needs to have some more cohesive organization or it will eventually collapse under it's own weight.
The only way to advance the desires of OWS and improve life for the 99% in America is via the voting booth. Everything else is just footage for the news. If we are really going to change the path America is on we need to occupy the voting both. I won't sit here and tell you who to vote for but I will say this... if we as a movement can gain a foot hold in DC and in our local legislative bodies we will lay the ground work for real change in our society.
I heard the things need to change but what do you want to change? I suggest we change the way banks work. Let the government run them and let them print the money. If there is interest moneys earned it can go into the general fund for every US citizen, rather into fat bankers pocket. Why should a banker get rich over loaning money to the government? The government should run on a cash basis, if you know what that is... and be prohibited from borrowing money. We would have 40% more money immediately as we would not owe interest any more.
Change of tactics: time to stop camping and start informing. Getting rid of campsites does not mean going home. It means having booths in parks etc where information is distributed, a Kisok type system, tied by computers across the nation. Then a printer that can be used to print out the names of public officials that are deeply invested in special interests...keep it local but have that network set up.
An excellent post. Succinct and to the point.
Why reinvent the wheel when OWS has the tactical advantage over Wall Street corruption today? Wall Street has the dollars and the guns. But OWS has the creative inspiration and motivation needed to neutralize the dollars. And OWS has the sympathies of the masses needed to overwhelm the guns in the voting booth. Tens of millions of Americans agree with OWS that the government and Wall Street did America great harm by causing the financial collapse of America. These are all potential OWS voters.
OWS could scare the politicians and Wall Street into change quickly and effectively by simply activating politically. OWS is disaffected Americans incited by the two party corruption by Wall Street, the betrayal of Barack Obama and his false promises in 2008 and the incitement of seeing the minority Tea Party this past summer bring the nation and economy to its knees for their political gain.
OWS people were a major component of Barack Obama winning in 2008. OWS already has the winning political power. OWS simply needs to focus it. Not allow itself to be disenfranchised by its own disaffection.
The economy is collapsing. OWS number one enemy is father time.
Better put the decision making skills in a time warp..
It's sufficient to combat Wall Street and their propaganda outlet FOX News.
You won't change a damn thing by camping out in public parks and pissing and shitting all over the place.
You also can't set up your own system.
There is never going to be jobs and prosperity again as long as Obama remains president.
The problem is, most OWS people are leftists and will vote for Obama again. They have a complete disconnect from the fact that an ever increasing government is crushing and destroying jobs, opportunity, and prosperity in this country.
Dont be disillusioned... This site sensors any political preference, but there are a lot of RP supporters that are also OWS supporters.
BUT is RP or BO the answer?
No.
Both are too extreme.
One wants government to control everything and all aspects of life .... crowding out everything else including individual freedoms and private property in favor of a crony capitalist/crony socialist/authoritarian type system.
The other wants to revert this country to a 19th century type foreign policy and an equally insane 19th century domestic policy where financial and banking collapse was virtually guaranteed every 15 to 20 years.
Neither are acceptable.
Adbusters in Canada planted this in your heads.......sheep following sheep
You can get jobs. You just don't want them
If you are at a job where you are "worked to death for pocket change"....whose fault is that??????? It's YOURS. Go get an education or learn a trade. For crying out loud. Get a license and become a truck driver. You will always have work for the rest of your life.
Get your heads out of the "entitlement" hole. You are not entitled to anything. You work for what you want. Geeesh.
You have spoken nothing but noise. There isn't a person out there that even knows what your demands are. You keep changing them. The open borders? You're nuts. Getting $20/hour minimum wage? Why are you entitled to that? This country should forgive all debts? That is just plain dumb. I'm not paying for YOU to lose your debts that you brought upon yourselves.
Things are not going to change because of Occupy Wall Street. The way things will change is to vote the people in who care about US and the USA and not their fat pockets.
Stop crying and go get a job.....
I have a job.. Infact I have a "dream job". I'm doing exactly what I went to school for and got my degree in. I'm making a decent amount of money compared to others... BUT is it worth it? Is it worth the time? Is it fair that our system is set up that a full time job means 40+ hours a week. Who did the negotiating for this system? Is it fair that we give 5 of 7 days to our jobs without even questioning it? Why isn't it 3.5 days of work for 3.5 days off? Why should we spend our whole lives working, chasing that carrot? Shouldn't we be LIVING? Why is Americas working class working more hours than any other country? why do we have the least amount of holidays and vacations? These are things that need to be discussed.
Then work half the time and make half the money. I believe you will find the answer if you do the research.I know what the answer is.
It's all about choice.What you choose to do in your life is your decision. That's why this country is so beautiful. We aren't told what we have to do or how to do it.Try other countries.Many work twice the hours for half the pay.Don't hear them complaining.
That's up to you how much you work. Money vs your time. I am a public school teacher who left the computer industry making plenty of money because my free time was more important than money.
I just think the definition of a full time job should be revised...
no matter how you cut it, giving 5 days of labor for 2 days off is not fair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
It isn't a movement, it isn't the tip of the iceberg. It's a flailing bunch of nothing that can't even figure out why it's camping in a park before it's camping in a park. Iceberg? Ice cube and most of it already melted.
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The news media doesn't seem to be paying much attention to OWS any more. After all, michal Jacksons doctor is much more interesting.
I do not think OWS is the path to change. Occupying Lincoln Center and defacating in parks will not bring forth change. The time for compromise is over. It has been 146 years since the last civil war. Perhaps it is time for another shake-up. Instead of North vs South, perhaps it will be makers vs takers. Or bathers vs non-bathers. Or dopeheads vs the level-headed. Whatever, I think compromise is running out of steam.
So you're suggesting a loss of patience?
No, a change in tone, a change in approach. More raw, less accomodating
well there have been quite a few protesters who refused to leave when asked to, how would you suggest things be different?