Forum Post: On Sept 17 I Was Stymied....How Do We Fix The System?
Posted 10 years ago on Sept. 20, 2014, 12:43 p.m. EST by pigeonlady
(284)
from Brooklyn, NY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I was interviewed twice. Essentially, the interviewers wanted to know why I was there. Wow, such an easy question! Between the various background noises and a dispute or two, my concentration faltered; all I could do was to apply the failures of the system in my situation and those around me, what I see and have heard from others. The student interviewer asked what can we do about it? Platitudes aside, I thought it a good question and wanted to give a good answer. I could not. At the last I made a synopsis of what needs to be done but not how. It occurred to me that HOW involves a plan, a detailed outline, and an absolute. Not the vagueness of the demand but an actual method with SUSTAINABLE replacement of components of the system building to the complete restructuring of government. If you want to have a revolution, you got do it right. Serious discussion group needed here. Not long boring essays. Not people pissed because of their pot bust. Not a casual meet at Barney's. Let's make a real group.
Massive decentralization giving the power back to the community. The community will figure out what is best for them.
Start at the beginning-what's Job One.If we can agree perhaps on the top 5 most pressing problems,in no particular order,we could then proceed to HOW one at a time.
Yes, and how needs clear delineation, but one a time displaces a set of interrelated functions as well, so more than one needs to be shifted at once.
Job 1 is to figure out how will people be organized,IMHO.Shall we start with a group of however many people live in the US right now? Is that toO large a group? How about state by state? Is that to small and unequal by population? What about regionalism as the Cascadia movement advocates? IMHO,the US is too large by area and population and the states are too small and unequal by area and population.Therefore I would advocate for volontary associations among the states to create administrative regions that are larger than the individual states-like Cascadia-but of a more manageable size in area and population than the entire US.
Separation of wealth and state or wealth lying in state.
I would try to visit that wake - as long as it was to celebrate the death of corrupt and corrupting wealth.
Wealth lying in state = wealth lying in state. Tautology, isn't it?
How so? What are you seeing? - as it has slipped past me at the moment. ( corrupt and corrupting ? )
Definition:
(1) A redundancy (sense #3)--in particular the needless repetition of an idea using different words. (Repetition of the same sense is tautology. Repetition of the same sound is tautophony.)
(2) In logic, a statement that is unconditionally true by virtue of its form alone; for example, "Socrates is either mortal or he's not." Adjective: tautologous or tautological.
"Wealth lying in state" may mean "Koch Industries not speaking the truth in political discourse of governance."
[ edit ] I can't imagine - the Koch's lying? Shirley you jest.
edit-> Next I suppose you will be telling me that fracking is "not" good for me "or" the environment.
"Wealth lying in state" may mean "Marcellus Shale oil and gas treasure lying in New York State."
Many interpretations can be made - so - I guess your point in = Tautology
The tautology is a Rorschach test. What you see says a lot about what your inclinations are. Maybe all that oil and gas treasure under Marcellus Shale will go respectably buried. Maybe money not separated from politics will lead to the death of wealth, accorded due respect.
https://occupywallst.org/forum/ukraine-erupts-in-flames-as-protest-against-the-go/#comment-1048077
Supporting substantive thought: https://occupywallst.org/forum/do-you-want-or-need-good-food-for-thought/
Marching for climate action, against money in poltics, & all other non violent tactics will be required.
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/09/20/3570075/shaun-donovan-costs-of-climate-denial/
great post.
hmmm... I have big list of imo's .... I jot down in few hrs... still at work
Cool. Pease post it when you're ready!
Just one idea.... an old draft .....
(more include.... A People's Veto, A Social Wealth Bank, Organized Political Independent non-Party... Consensus Building Polling & Voting ,,, Tax Greed & Corruption (America's Biggest Resource) ... etc :)
On the Edge of Prosperity…
We have many problems that not only led us to this state… but also lie further ahead… Changing our government will help no doubt… but we still have much more to do…
Why is it that much of today’s corporations, government bodies, court systems, etc. so in-festered with illegal and selfish activities? Is it simply greed? Or could some survival be involved?
We have many problems ahead, and the primary one is job opportunity.. Do we really need 10′s of 1000′s of Health care managers telling our doctors and medical staff what they can or cannot do?… adding trillions to our healthcare costs? … When the Democrats held Congress, they wanted to centralize Healthcare, they had the votes, Obama stopped it… why?… He implied.. I am not going to put another 14% of the population out of work in this recession…
We have also intentionally created a disposable economy… we design built-in failure… so demand replenishes itself… creating mountains of trash… Is that solely for big profits… or can it also be for survival?
Why did we create the biggest building boom in the history of the country when we knew it would eventually collapse? All for jobs… Now granted, Greed plays a big part… as does crime…
How do we fix it?
Change the government?.. yes I agree… replace them all… but then what? We need to advance… We need to be the government….We need to change what we consider valuable… And when we have done that we need to expand it such that there is no need…
Personally I agree with the ideology of the benefits of capitalistic free-enterprise… how-ever I also see the failures of it…
I also agree the ideology of the benefits of common and shared property and resources… and also see the failures of it…
Do we compromise? …Seems a bit unworthy of a People who put men on the moon… I know we can do better…
Let’s think of the opposing Ideologies… the dreams… One reaches for Individual Freedom & Economic Opportunity … while the other reaches for Economic Freedom & Individual Opportunity …
Why do they need to be different, why one or the other? I think we should reach for it all…
Up to this point in time… most everything in a capitalistic system evolves around “economic wealth”….
Is Art not a wealth? Is Knowledge not wealth? Is Health not wealth?..
It is argued that wealth is created when we do labor to transform something worthless into something useful, into something that can be later traded…
Teaching a child to read is also preforming labor… is also useful… is worth something… it is wealth… how-ever it cannot be traded as a commodity… not an economic wealth… but it is still wealth…
Why do we need to evaluate these non-economic Wealth’s to economic realm ? Seriously, Economic Wealth is merely economic… the buying, selling, trading of crap….
Designed to turn into trash once paid for… Designed to fill our Seas with Garbage… Can we not do better than this? …
Our concept of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) does not measure health, happiness, education, or civic participation.* Where is Gross Domestic Wealth (GDW) ?… We need an advancement…
We have an opportunity to expand wealth beyond mere economic terms, and therefore we have an opportunity to expand currency. Why is revenue contribution based solely on economic income? What does one’s economic income have to do with cost or contribution to society?
Or a corporation’s cost or contribution to society?
Would not it be more accurate to base revenue contribution or incentives on provided jobs? That’s what we really need…
Would not it be more accurate to base revenue contribution or incentives on provided good health? That’s what we really need…
Why do we all need to work in factories? Soon robots will do that all anyway…
Why can’t we paint pictures, write books, invent and discover new vaccines, research and learn whatever we want to..?
In simpler times… everyone had a slot they could fill… there was a need for everyone to participate… everyone had opportunity & purpose…
technology & efficency is changing the old ways…. as new technology is doing our work for us… it is also forcing us to evolve … we need to learn to share, to be benevolent…. to demand equal opportunity, participation and health for all…
a poor consumer makes a poor consumer…
why are even the wealthiest companies worried ? .. because their customer base is disappearing … and they know it… we need to evolve, we need to advance… we need to get enlightened…
the war machine continues to advance… why ?… I can not think of a better business model… build products that blow up… products that immediately need to be replaced… is that too far fetched ? … I mean really.. how many different ways do we need to invent to kill each-other ? … it’s all about cashflow.. economic exchange …
Is it simply greed ? … or is it survival…. trying anything to keep the system going ?
Expansion of governmental positions… Expansion of Legal positions and new Laws on top of new Laws… visits to multiple Medical Specialists, simply to treat a common cold… All for survivial… trying anything to keep the system going… trying anything to keep people employeed…
the answer is truly simple… we need a larger consumer base…. we need a healthy consumer base…. we need to create new opportunity… we need to create new resource… we need to invest in people…we need to invest in culture… we need to invest in that what machines cannot replace ….
We need to reach beyond mere economic wealth… we need a Renaissance…
Is Articulation not wealth?.. Is Integrity & Pride not wealth?.. Is Spare time not wealth?..
If an enterprise creates new jobs… creates new consumers… how is that not as “importent” as providing revenue ? … how is that not as “valuble” as providing revenue ? how is that not adding wealth to the society?
If an enterprise destroys jobs… how is that not removing wealth from society?
Free enterprise and competition does work… and works very well to keep economic exchange moving… however, in our modern world it is not enough… We need not replace it.. We need to build on it..
If we are going to solve these things… we need it all … why dismantle or replace anything that works ?
Why become distructionists ?…that leads to little gain…
The economic wealth based system works, it has worked very well for many, many years… let it continue… but let’s not allow it’s institution to deprive us of additional systems waiting for discovery…
Privatise Prisons ? … so we want to create an incentive for more unjust laws to be written… so more can be broken.. to expand the market of buying and selling people’s freedom ?…
Privatise education ?… higher education is privatised … Is it working for the masses? .. many have multiple degrees and little hope for jobs… personnaly I believe privatising education is a promising idea… but not for economic profit… we need something new…
We speak often of “sharing the wealth”… the current economic wealth based system’s do that… they have stock holders they share wealth with… and that is good… it’s bolsters the economy with healthy consumers… but it’s not enough…
Feable attempts to keep people surviving thru unenployment compensation helps… but what does it really accomplish? Is that what we want… a new social class that sits around and watches tv all day?…
We bail out the big banks, but not the once employed consumers… where will that lead?… just postponing the collapse….the banks are too frightened to invest in unsure development…
we need more… we need to invent new opportunity…
The exodus of the church from the impoverished communities…is but another example of a failing system..
The philanthropy dilema … we are losing worthy solutions because of bottom-line profits … many benevolent inventions, discoveries & research programs do not get funded because of promise of little profit margins… and in economic down-turns there is less and less charitable resource…
What if we elevate what “share the wealth” means ? What if we “share the wealth” by allowing more wealth’s into the picture ? .. providing more transactional systems… more exchange, more currency in circulation… we will see an increase of healthy consumers…
What if we had a “Social Wealth”… and we treated it differently …. not as tax payer subsidised “do good” programs… but new additional systems with capitalistic incentives and gains?
What if Social Wealth enterprises could borrow from the FED at the same rates the banks do? … or even at lessor rates…
Would new Social Wealth enterprise not create new consumers? … supporting not only the social based economy but also the economic profit based economy alike? …
How would we do it?…
Could we not have a “Gross Social Product”, a GSP … based on how much currency has been added into the economy through Social Wealth enterprise ?…
Of course we can… why mix tangible and intangible product ?… or tangible and intangible wealth ?….
Why tax the tangible wealth with the intangible needs ?…
We can make the “intangible needs” an industry.. a self-sustaining and profitable industry… we simply need to provide the venue… the resource to allow it to happen..
Why put the burden of supporting needed social programs onto the economic wealth producers when social wealth producers can create wealth also ?…
There truly is a brave and prosperous new world ahead… We simply need to open the door…
“The mechanics of the Occupation of Social Wealth” is next
I think we largely agree with the questions posited and statements between; I am most interested in the ideas you put in parentheses. A people's veto etc. I wish we could wake up to a Utopia, we have to overhaul or abolish one portion of the system or arrive at such a great plan we can push for an overnight transition for the whole, not just the portions that are faulty and controversial Care to expound on the topics in parentheses?
yes... it is interesting how simple solutions could be accepted... provided they work for all ....
another ... how do we get the money out of politics ?
maybe ... quickest way ... is to get the money out of business .... or get business to value other types of profits more than mere money ...
A question -- if we could have all our needs met, do you think people would/could be motivated to work, essentially for 'free'? With the feeling of accomplishment, there is always want for recognition; some of which is reflected in wages, bonuses, commission. Just a plaque doesn't always do it.. And how can we convince corporate bigwigs to reduce their pay to be in reasonable proportion to lower level jobs/pay? it's an ethics issue and would restore greater profit to their companies for investors and make them able to continue benefits for underlings. After all, they're not greedy, are they? (>snicker<)
I've never suggested that people should not be rewarded for good work....
In fact I am saying the opposite... People should NOT be rewarded for Bad work ...
and Bad work encompasses earning profits for doing Bad things... ie ... polluting... stealing... etc...
all those things that in the Social Wealth world would have negative value....
That's a spin on it. In some matters, how well you play with others affects perception of worth and contribution. Also how much money you already have, since it is perceived you had worth elsewhere. therefore you have money already.
that's why we need to clearly separate social & monetary wealth ... We simply need to change what our investment & banking industries consider valuable
[Removed]
This is exactly why Marx stated a prerequisite for communism: a post-scarcity society.
In socialism - "From each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds."
In communism - "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
Communism is a higher form of organization than socialism, but it can't happen until you have post-scarcity. With socialism, each person is paid according to their deeds. People who work more, are paid more. This type of encouragement is needed because post-scarcity is not yet reached. If we build robots to help us and we manage to reach a post-scarcity society, then everyone can have whatever they want. Communism, the highest form of social organization can finally be.
The other problem with your question is that it isn't very clear.
If everyone's needs are met because they work, then they aren't working for free. They are working to meet their needs.
Contrastingly, if everyone's needs are met no matter if they work or not, then who cares if they work.
That last part I exactly what I meant. Some people would want to work and contribute, presently as in volunteerism, regardless. Others would not view any obligation to king or country rationale for lifting a pinky. Those are now called CEOs.
each house keeps a daily minutes
could that be parsed public comments on the internet
The Congressional Record The Congressional Record is a substantially verbatim account of the remarks made by senators and representatives while they are on the floor of the Senate and the House of Representatives. It also includes all bills, resolutions, and motions proposed, as well as debates and roll call votes.
https://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/d_three_sections_with_teasers/congrecord.htm
also ... https://beta.congress.gov/congressional-record
hmmm ... I'm sure cspan ... records everything not behind closed doors
we could have a speculation forum for behind closed door legislation
kinda like a daily crossword
hehehe
in short... we need to first... see the system for what it really is... then instead of challenging it... we simply evolve it into something better
I don't know how well I would do with an off the cuff interview. But I would like to think that as in answer to "what can we do about it" - that hopefully I could get past the flustered factor and answer back to the query = Get involved with actions like Move To Amend the 50 state campaign to remove person-hood from corporations and their money from politics.
Well, I made some puling little comments to that effect. Just saying 'let's keep at it' isn't enough. we need substance.
Yep
Substance - OK.
OSTA ( one subject at a time legislation ) - How to get there? Right now the best approach open to the people would be an action just like Move to Amend = a 50 state campaign to push it through the Federal Government.
A peoples veto ( as Brad stated ) - an action of direct democracy by the public - to halt legislation policies actions of the government. How do we get there? At this point in time - it would need to be approached the same way as Move to Amend.
In addition to a peoples veto - there should also be - the peoples directive - to promote and drive issues that need to be addressed. Like change over to clean energy production for domestic/public use as well as for industrial use as well as for all transportation use - and/or to push forward a true universal health care program - and/or to break up the too big to fail wall street - and/or to pursue criminal charges against the criminals of the economic meltdown - and/or to end fossil fuel subsidies and fossil fuel extraction expansion and fracking and and and. Again to get it implemented - it would likely have to be approached just like the Move to Amend campaign.
To establish a system to fire representatives for cause = put teeth into the oath of office and give the people a clean and expedient method to invoke and enforce. Again - it would likely have to be approached just like the Move to Amend campaign - to get it implemented.
Alternative to move to amend? Massive publicity and politician pressure? How about criteria for a review panel for politicians, or would we make reviews and sanctions voted on by all? Go for it. What thinkest thou?
We saw that yesterday and today = climate march and flood wall street.
The constitution of the USA coupled with the oath of office " should " be criteria for a review panel for politicians.
BTW - Move To Amend was presented as an example of a grass-roots people powered movement/action to push the public's wants and needs - as it is gonna take public push/involvement/action to make the changes we need in government and in society. To push the needed changes as pointed out yesterday and today in the climate march and in flood wall street - as well as so much more.
The Constitution is dissed and disregarded, as many of the particulars of law are, therefore a solution has to, as you said, put teeth into it. Penalties no longer exist. It's all for show. The march was fantastic, a great display of public concern, now we have to watch for results and keep pushing. Is move to Amend a philosophy or has it become recognized as a legal means of by the people, for the people? As in, with procedure to introduce etc in a government format?
Check it out. Was endorsed by OWS.
http://movetoamend.org/
Didn't get o look up yet. Has anything been introduced with results using Move to Amend? What is the effectiveness of it?(will look it up later)
Currently Move to Amend - is - a single campaign to get citizens united overturned. This campaign is through the states to build support of the people and pressure through the states. It is on going - that is why I say to look it up ( http://movetoamend.org/ ) as the information you want ( are looking for ) is there.
Is there a rss fed of congressional record that could be parsed for commenting ?
check out the tools at sunlightfoundation ... http://sunlightfoundation.com/tools/
they also have an api interface support
rss fed?
You should check with Brad for his link to the congressional record tool that he is exploring.
https://occupywallst.org/forum/on-sept-17-i-was-stymiedhow-do-we-fix-the-system/#comment-1048214
thanks