Forum Post: On Conspiracy Theories and Their Great Danger
Posted 12 years ago on June 8, 2012, 4:52 a.m. EST by treasure
(-81)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Barack Obama wasn't born in the U.S. (And even if he was, no matter: He's still fixing to impose socialist tyranny on America); Osama bin Laden is still alive, or died long ago. 9/11 was an inside job. In case you hadn't noticed, conspiracy theories are big these days. Of course, they've always been big – for which, see Freemasons, Satanic cults, the JFK assassination, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Paul McCartney's death, and on and on. But it's hard to shake the feeling that conspiracy theories are getting out of hand. Cass Sunstein, a Harvard legal thinker now in the Obama administration, wrote an influential paper in 2008 arguing that conspiracism poses a threat to democracy and government needs to start taking it very seriously. And more recently, Canadian journalist Jonathan Kay, who has a new book out about conspiracism, has written Internet-fueled conspiracy theories have caused "nothing less than a rift in the fabric of consensual American reality" – meaning, we don't agree anymore on what reality is.
Below, posts looking at at conspiracy theories in America today. Check back here for updates.
Top 10 conspiracy theories
Jews run the world; 9/11 was an inside job; Obama is a radical socialist; fluoride is sapping our national strength – and other paranoid fantasies believed by millions
Book excerpt: Among the Truthers
Journalist Jonathan Kay spent two years two journeying in America's "vast conspiracist subculture." He came back with a warning: conspiracy theories are tearing our society apart
Q&A: Jonathan Kay on America's vast conspiracist subculture
The author on on why conspiracists aren't crazy (or dumb), what they get out of believing, and why "birtherism" isn't about race
Photo Gallery: Eight Types of Conspiracy Theorist
Conspiracy theories are spreading faster than ever and causing real damage to America, says journalist Jonathan Kay. His new book, Among the Truthers, describes' his two-year "journey through America's growing conspiracist underground." Part of the book explains conspiracism historically – as a reaction, in part, to big national traumas, like wars or assassinations; but the heart of the book, a section titled "Why They Believe," looks into the psychology of conspiracism – that is, what makes individuals believe seemingly nutjob theories. He comes up with a field guide that breaks conspiracy theorists down into eight distinct types, as you'll see in the following slides.
The last bit, the 8 types of conspiracy theorists in interesting. Worth a look. As for our 3 in-house conspiracy theorists, I would classify shadz66 as the The Cosmic Voyager, arturo as The Evangelical Doomsayer, and Renneye as The Clinical Conspiracist.
A great comment from the article comments:
"Isn't a conspiracy theory just an alternative narrative?
No, it isn't. By definition, a conspiracy theory contains some element of belief or, at best, missing evidence. Historians can (and usually do) argue over alternative narratives. But that's because historians use a discipline that distinguishes between fact and supposition. Without that discipline, the debate is powerless.
"Do we really need to suppress all narratives except for the official ones?
Definitely not! Debate is the foundation of all good human interaction - personal, social, scientific and political. So just as we should question what politicians say, we should question what the questioners say.
The real danger comes not from conspiring politicians or free-speaking citizens, but from people who don't think critically. A theory may be attractive, because it fits our world view. But that doesn't make it true. Many facts of life are inconvenient. The world (as the evidence now shows us) is not flat.
If you act out on belief rather than on evidence, you will at best achieve little and at worst do harm to those around you.
What happened? Your anarchist/black bloc and Dem co-optation angles weren't working so you're back to the conspiracy theory angle? Good grief.
This is my bread and butter babe.
zzzzzzzz. Please find something else to talk about. You're a smart guy.
Would you like an in depth analysis of Woody Allen's Zelig? Give me a break, I'm sick this week. Just pumping the usual material so I don't have to think.
Take a look at the 8 types of conspiracy theorists. You'll laugh.
I have zero interest in conspiracy theories. You are highlighting them more than anyone else on the forum.
Now, what would be an interesting discussion would be one about the root of why some Americans believe in these types of things in the first place. And, why do they allow their government to be bought by the wealthy while their wages and workers' rights are eroding, etc. etc. In a nutshell, why aren't they out in the streets the way they were in your hometown of Montreal? Why do Americans have blind nationalism that causes them to refuse to see the problems their nation faces? Why do they cheerlead for politicians who are clearly not looking out for their interests?
that information is on a need to now basis
LOL. I need to know.
I wish everyone would vote publicly
Why?
then we'd know what they want
You ask some tough questions. I'll think about it and answer you in a few hours.
Okay.
that must be some step up or down in all the steps we take
this link will be soon destroyed. So if you curious enough, you'll take a watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jUByL6LRj2I#!
That was in interesting video.
They started getting into numerology for like 10mins or so. That almost ruined it for me.
i believe more in astrology rather than numerology. seems like the illuminati likes numerology. hehe
Who's going to destroy your link? The big bad boogie man?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iDq0Tdja4A
Clever man!
Trash is always someone else's treasure.
Ask yourself why you posted this, and again, why you posted it here.
If both answers equal self=agrandisement, then you need a web master.
I posted this for one reason: It is important! The future or our world depends on it. We can't make a better society if everyone has lost touch with reality. We must prone logical thinking, critical thinking!
Why are you afraid of clear and crispy thought?
http://nomormonpresidentnomittromney2012.blogspot.com/
It's hard to stay on topic isn't it.
I don't owe you any respect, Thrash.
Nothing you posted is nooz.
The future of your world does not depend on it.
I'm not afraid of any kind of thought.
What I'm concerned about is misinformation clouding the true path.
Is that why you are here?
Conspiracy theories is misinformation of the worst kind.
It's twisting facts and evidence to explain the world in a false way.
It's the most dangerous thing for critical thought since Stalin and friends.
have there ever been any actual conspiracies?
Of course there have! Those are called conspiracies, which is entirely different than the English expression "conspiracy theories". To find out about real conspiracies you need to use the scientific method and investigative journalism. Conspiracy theorists fail because they don't know the first thing about proper research methods.
can you name a few
Google and Wikipedia are your friends. i believe you are old enough to do your own research.
can't think of one huh - and can you tell me scientifically why the back of jfk's head was blown off?
I can tell you. Oswald tried to shoot Edwin Walker but he missed. The Birchers retaliated by killing Kennedy. The Birchers changed their name to the Tea Party and the rest is history. The Tea Party is taking over America all because Oswald was a bad shot.
more grist for the greeks mill - i do not believe the warren commission on much of anything. and how about oswald in russia and mexico? know anything about that?
Ya, I know about it. Oswald was starting to lighten up on Communism but he definitely leaned that way when he was a bit younger. His wife told the police he bragged about trying to shoot Walker. The Warren Commission didn't want to deal with the fact Oswald leaned far to the left and Walker was so far right he was considered to be insane. Kennedy leaned somewhat left. This is a stretch but maybe the cops wanted to pick up Oswald for questioning and then let him go. He probably killed the cop Tippett so Oswald was no victim. I'm speculating on this part of it but Bircher retaliation is the simplest explanation I can think of. Oliver Stone's movie "JFK" is a great piece of art but it's the biggest bunch of dem baloney imaginable. And the mafia theory is stupid too. Ruby was a nut who just wanted to be famous. He was taking some medication that was banned shortly after the whole thing and he couldn't even remember shooting Oswald later on. Dems and repubs are the biggest conspiracy theorists of all and now it's coming back to them. They pick a truther to become the green czar? Truthers and birthers are nuts. On the other hand, I could be wrong about everything. I still blame everything on the baggers though.
Oh no! We have a conspiracy theorist in this thread! I hope you'll be a good example of the dangers of conspiracy theories. I'll try to figure out why type you are after a few more comments.
so am i to assume that you believe the warren commission did a proper investigation?
More ad hominem and logical fallacies from one of the site's most "profound" conspiracy theorists.
Whether it did or didn't has nothing do to with whether conspiracy theories are dangerous and unhealthy. It has only to do with that particular commission and the methods used.
I'm always open to others who wish to do investigative journalism to come closer to the full truth. I'm not open to lamos who want to try to find the truth using the flawed method of conspiracy theorists.
not sure why but what comes to my mind is rumsfeld statement about logical illogicality. you should go back and play with your thai maids
Unless you believe the democrat version... JFK messed with big business!! Or, the republican version....It was the mafia!! I'm right, they're wrong and that's all there is to it.
why you people keep trying to understand? Im not american born, but american history reveals much smoothly for me. take this video clip for instance, (one of the dozens you can find about JFK) http://www.youtube.com/v/kvS669fNZpM?version=3&f=videos&app=youtube_gdata And tell me that assassination of A. Lincoln and JFK were just terrible contingencies
what?
dont be like What? take a look http://www.youtube.com/v/vftZtF0mRJI?version=3&f=videos&app=youtube_gdata
i did and i am not interested - the vietnam angle is nonsense - read chomsky on the subject - your turn - http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199209--.htm
imaginative literature. I'm sick of a virtually meaningless warfare raping. There is always has to be occult enemy. At that date it was the vietnamese communism. Now is virtual terrorism happens and constant fight with it. new regulations like ACTA NDAA wouldn't stop it. "The public is not unaware of what is happening" Do we talk about conspirasy here? Chomsky and flipped figgas trying to mislead us with irrelevant memoirs about warfare. Kennedy only was responsable as the head of the government who implement executive orders. Those on top who will ever try to change the direction of FED mashine and world banks will end up like JFK or MLK. we done talking
you are right - we done talking - go back to your smoothly history and keep smoking that ganga - it is doing you a world of good
Bull crap. Google General Edwin Walker- the real founder of the Tea Party. Oswald tried to blow his head off but missed. Walker and the Birchers killed JFK in response. They probably didn't know Oswald but they took it out on JFK. The government needs to maintain the story that you shouldn't mess with big business. Now that the Tea Party really is big business we'll see how that goes.
There are many. I was hoping you could research that yourself. It doesn't really have much to do with this thread since conspiracies uncovered by investigative journalism have nothing to do with conspiracy theories.
Here, 7 well known ones: http://www.cracked.com/article_15974_7-insane-conspiracies-that-actually-happened.html
and they were theories until proven - right? and now as to the back of kennedy's head - i notice you chose to ignore that part?
The back of Kennedy's head is of no interest to this discussion. I am not a ballistic expert and do not have the data of the particular case, so, no, of course I cannot properly explain why his head was or was not blown off. So what? So, nothing. This has nothing to do with this post which is about the dangers of conspiracy theories.
Theories and conspiracy theories are two different things. "Conspiracy theory" is an English expression which denotes a type of flawed research method. It's like "hot dog" which is also an expression but doesn't literally mean a dog that is hot. When people say conspiracy theories they mean the "theories" made by crackpots who do not use the scientific method.
Conspiracy theories are always pseudoscientific as opposed to investigative journalism or critical historical analysis which use tools from the scientific method. Please read my post again. One of the comments at the end explains this clearly. Conspiracy theories are based on beliefs, not facts.
The proven theories above were proven by using investigative journalism which uses the scientific method. They could never have been proven using the methods of conspiracy theorists. Those methods amount to nothing of value, each and every time.
of course you have no interest in the back of kennedy's head since it destroys your point - and what then should i call a conspiracy that has yet to be proven scientifically - what would the english expression for that be? a hot dog? when people say what - which people - common accepted practice - i don't think so. so we have at least one person who does not use the language in the way you describe.
Where did I rail against the JFK killing?
do you really not know what i meant by that - too bad - does anyone like you on this site - how about anyone in bali - there must be some friends among your imperial canadian ex pats
And that's how it ends. A conspiracy theorist with his customary logical fallacy, this time, an ad hominem.
nothing ad hominem here - just a simple statement of fact - you can't see the most simple connections. you want to rail against the jfk killing and those who see a conspiracy there but cannot explain how the back of his head was blown off by a shot from behind. that leads to only one conclusion - you are dumber than i thought.
It does not matter what you think the expression "conspiracy theory" means. That does not change the definition, just like it wouldn't matter if I thought that "blueberry muffins" meant "porn movies".
Conspiracy theory signifies the flawed research method conspiracy theorists use. It doesn't have much to do with the subject they are inquiring about. For example, if I were to research the events of 911 with the proper tools of investigative journalism then my work would not be called a conspiracy theory and I wouldn't call myself a Truther. You see, the word Truther means the person already thinks he has the truth or that his research will automatically bring forth the truth. He works in the opposite way of the scientific method. An investigative journalist would do his research first, then he would publish it if he had any evidence for his claims. He would never claim that his research will automatically come to some truth, and he would be well aware that his research could very well simply give credence to the original claim of the government. The reason you don't see any serious investigative journalists publishing articles stating that 911 was an inside job is because no one is able to find evidence that it was. All the "evidence" claimed by conspiracy theorists is crippled with logical fallacies of every imaginable kind.
Conspiracy theories are ALWAYS based on logical fallacies. ALWAYS.
I don't know how you plan to argue that with this one question you can rebut my claim that conspiracy theories are unhealthy and dangerous, but I sure would like to see you try. So, why do you think this destroys my point.
you are dumber than i thought
The word "truther" was a lablel created by....um.....NOT the people who question it.
You really have a poor understanding of how the media works.
So you post these theories why?
Did you read the article I link to? It does not promote conspiracy theories, it explains why they are very dangerous.
I am more concerned with total ownership of our media outlets than a couple of people posting on a website.
When you can guarantee everyone genuine news and unbiased information on everyone's TV sets and radios, get back to me.
Until then, ciao, my friend. ;-)
Don't just sit back in your armchair watch Jerry Spring and eat your BigMac while you wait for me to fix the media problem. You have to hep too!
Like this guy in a cave in Afghanistan sent these Saudis to America....
You mean a billionaire who was temporarily hiding in a cave for a few weeks before being helped to a palace in another country by high ranked officials? That guy? Ya, I think he had the resources, the will, and the hate required to setup 911.
Yeah, and call off the US Air Force, and leave the Pentagon without any defenses, and topple three buildings with two airplanes and block any investigation of the crime.
Your "facts" are wrong. There was an investigation of the case, and it found that terrorists destroyed the buildings with planes. It's by far the most consistent story. There's a lot of evidence. 911 Truthers have nothing but lies.
You need to take your pro-media talking points and go talk to New Yorkers about the investigation to find out what really happened to it.
Otherwise, you are just as bad as the rest of em.
Why don't you and your Truther friends simply bring the government to court. If you have evidence that proves it's an inside job, it should be easy. You can apply to a court in US, or even an international court. You'll be heroes. Until then, you're just a bunch of conspiracy theory lunatic nutjobs.
80,000 New York City residents petitioned for a real investigation.
http://nyccan.org/
We, the undersigned Families, First Responders and Survivors of September 11 raise our voice with those from across our country and around the world in support of NYC CAN and the establishment of an independent, impartial subpoena powered investigation into the events surrounding the September 11 attacks on our nation. We believe a new investigation is our only path forward to the answers and accountability every American deserves and our only path back to the moral high ground upon which our great nation was built. We unite with NYC CAN and the citizens of the City of New York in support of an unbiased nonpolitical rendering of evidence and fact wherever they may lead and ask every American and every concerned citizen of the world, in defense of our nation and in defense of freedom, to join with us today.
http://nyccan.org/signatories.php There follows a list of 9/11 survivors and family members of those killed too long to append here. Needless to say this effort was thwarted.
http://nyccan.org/Decision_Denied.php NYC CAN
The New York City Coalition for Accountability Now has come together to lead a disciplined and patriotic search for answers about September 11th toward one tangible goal: the creation of an independent and impartial subpoena powered investigation into the September 11th attacks on our great nation. The 9/11 Commission?
“Set Up To Fail”, in the words of its Chairmen, Governor Thomas Kean and Representative Lee Hamilton. That's why 66% of New Yorkers want a new investigation. America Deserves Better
Honor our country and all she stands for by raising your voice in support of an investigation that answers to nothing and to no one but evidence and fact wherever they may lead. Join the families, first responders and survivors of September 11th and millions of proud citizens in support of the principles and the freedom for which our forefathers fought and died.
^proves the point perfectly.
The "investigation" was a farce. Bin Laden had been declared "guilty" immediately.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_9/11_Commission#.22Set_up.22_to_fail
"Set up" to fail
The two co-chairs of the Commission, Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, believe that the government established the Commission in a way that ensured that it would fail. In their book Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission describing their experience serving, Hamilton listed a number of reasons for reaching this conclusion, including: the late establishment of the Commission and the very short deadline imposed on its work; the insufficient funds (3 million dollars), initially allocated for conducting such an extensive investigation (later the Commission requested additional funds but received only a fraction of the funds requested and the chairs still felt hamstrung); the many politicians who opposed the establishment of the Commission; the continuing resistance and opposition to the work of the Commission by many politicians, particularly those who did not wish to be blamed for any of what happened; the deception of the Commission by various key government agencies, including the Department of Defense, NORAD and the FAA; and, the denial of access by various agencies to documents and witnesses. "So there were all kinds of reasons we thought we were set up to fail."[21]
I don't see how you can defend this flawed, failed and illegitimate "investigation." Even Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, the Commission co chairs, distance themselves from their own work. They complain in public that the investigation was set up to fail. Why people like you so vigorously oppose and persecute anyone who wants the truth is a mystery to me.
I'm in Australia. Just north of Brisbane. East coast. I don't watch TV, and I cook my own bread.
I tend thirty hectares of mango trees and ten hectares of nut trees.
We also have several hectares of citrus trees and a small patch of veges, as well as a few dozen chickens for eggs.
I read here because I'm really concerned about what is going to happen to our world if unbridled consumerism consumes your nation.
What say you?
I say that I wish we were speaking face to face at your house and that you would serve me some mangos, nuts, and homemade bread. I'll bring the wine. If you're desperately looking for someone to inherit your farmland, send me a private message. Seems like you have a nice life.
You aren't looking for pickers by any chance? A trip to Australia would be a nice change, especially since Canadian winter is coming up again in 5 months time.
I'm not "desperately looking" for anything.
I am interested in what changes are possible in the governance of America.
Sounds like you're not even party to that.
Of course I am! I simply believe that there is so much conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo in America right now that people have absolutely lost touch with reality. We can't start changing things for the better if we can't identify the problems properly. The fist step is logical analysis of the situation, and that's where we are failing right now. Instead of looking at the real problems, we're caught up trying to identify the Illuminati and the culprits of 911. The first don't exist, and the later has already been explained. The real problem of America right now is not the bankers, but the fact that we have lost all touch with reality. Look on this forum, some people post the ramblings of a 12 year old girl to explain the complex economic problems of our time. We won't get far with that method.
Do you think we can change the world for the better if we rely on conspiracy theories, pseudo-sciences, and religions for our guides? I believe it's time for a better world forged with science, logic, and secular humanism. Clear and crispy thought fueled by your fresh mangos and home made bread.
Maybe your right. Young people are attracted to conspiracy theories and they are unhealthy. I still don't trust the Sunsteins. The illuminati hasn't existed for hundreds of years and it was only in Europe. They were good. They were against the tyranny of the church. Galileo was illuminati and so was Beethoven's organ teacher. Last I heard of them was about the time of the American revolution. The Bilderbergs are stupid. If 9/11 was an inside job we'll never know so why even think about it. I doubt it was. Birthers are stupid because I don't care where Obama was born.
Their greatest danger, is that some idiot will bring them up over and over and over, yet have little knowledge of what they actually are.
It's all a conspiracy theory.
What they are is pseudoscience.
By saying it's all conspiracy theory, what you are doing is mixing up science with pseudoscience. Essentially, you are saying that serious scientists are doing the same thing as pimpled faced teenagers "investigating" implausible theories of government conspiracies on the internet. Your comment is really insulting to all people who do serious research work. You're saying David Icke is like Einstein. That Alex Jones is like Feynman. Shame on you!
This is the reason the subject needs to be brought up. People don't understand! We can't build a better world if we keep confusing pseudoscience and science. A new better world will not be build upon myths and lizard diatribes, it must be built on the shoulders of science.
I'd get your point thrashy, if you weren't so obsessed.
If you actually provided cogent comment on the plethora of opinions, events and all the other stuff discussed on the forum, but you don't.
You are obsessed.
Why don't you just admit it?
Logical fallacy: ad hominem (or perhaps appeal to authority)
Whether I'm obsessed or not has nothing to do with whether my point is legit. The fact that you don't get my point because you think I'm obsessed (logical fallacy) shows us that we must keep talking about logic and the scientific method. Remember, the scientific method is the foundation for our new world. We can't start building without it!
You do reply to my comments, so I assume they are worth something to you, else you would not spend your time replying.
And when all else fail Thrash you can go back to attacking the computers of people who beat you in argument.
Nah, I never did that and never will. That's evil.
You lie like a Mormon. http://nomormonpresidentnomittromney2012.blogspot.com/
WW2 put the US in debt
the top income tax was 90% in the fifties
the top rate was over 90% at one point in the fifties
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t106/OnlyObvious/Tax_Rates/TopTaxBracket_TaxRate.jpg
The U.S. government has had outstanding debt since 1791:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt.htm
And the debt from WWII has nothing to do with our current problems.
write NO WAR
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When exactly was WWII's debt paid off? Is that counting the Manhattan Project as well? Occupation of Japan and Germany... rebuilding their infrastructure?
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I have some conspiracy theories about the Sunsteins. I can't stand these intellectual elitists. They believe in American exceptionalism in a big way and some people think that's dangerous.
The rend in the fabric of shared reality is due to the arrogance of Sunstein's ilk that they are lie masters who can determine others' reality. No. Reality is reality, truth will out.
The Propaganda Masters are losing out -- which makes them very dangerous.
Nice try 'treasure'. FAIL, too bad. Tell your bosses you should be fired for being incompetent.
You going too far, i cant reach you from there. The real danger is believes