Forum Post: Occupy will die if it is focused on rhetoric
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 26, 2011, 12:58 a.m. EST by dcosts
(69)
from St Petersburg, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Occupy will die if it is focused on rhetoric. We demand real change. For example, Constitutional Amendments, through evoking article 5 (constitutional convention method), that will remove money from politics and assert the peoples authority over all the institutions we create, business or government. Put the discredited oil & gas industry out of business. We can create our own energy – right here and now. We can create a new collaborative lateral energy regime owned and created by the people.
The Legal System is 100% fraud based on admiralty. Citizen "ship" = the waters of birth representing a vessel's maiden voyage. Illegitimate nautical law. Just say “With all due respect, your honor, motion to dismiss for lack of subject matter jurisdiction. I AM A SOVEREIGN. I am not a legal person. I am the holder in due course of the trade name you have called. If you are using this trade name you must pay me. And I would like a copy of your notarized oath of office, your honor. We can handle all of this at the administrative level."
Best to color code your documents. Think of your self as a SOVERIEGN and act as a soveriegn. Act with nobility. Use the administrative level to deal with court proceedings BEFORE ever setting foot in a court of law. Try to avoid going into the court room. Notarize ALL documents and ask that they all be placed into the file when you visit the clerk. The clerk is there FOR YOU.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uliLfykURYo
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page we have to get to the work of a paradigm shift, or eventually we run out of steam.
There is a book and website that discusses and lays out the new paradigm quite thoroughly. See ascentofhumanity.com. It's a book by Charles Eisenstein and can be read at the site.
Also see pangaia.sf.net for the tool which will create the new economy and self-organizing governance.
Cheers,
Mark
somehow..i think you are missing the point. Neat site, but whats needed is right action now on the wiki, not informational sites which have materials which are in essence echoes of stuff I'm already juggling.
ascentofhumanity.com.
http://ascentofhumanity.com/the-ubiquitous-matrix-of-lies.php
i will certainly include the site in the network page... thanks for the hot tip... please don't brush me off with a "go check this out" when in fact the immediacy and import of the wiki are crucial.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Network
Although I share your sense of urgency, I fear it may be too late. I'm just giving you tips so that during the Dark Age, you don't re-invent it all.
I would suggest not to brush off the book. It is quite detailed, advanced, and probably includes everything you would want to include in your wiki. Browse the Table of Contents and you'll see.
I'm not brushing anything off, I'm asking for immediate action on the wiki.
i feel brushed off, because all you have for me is a web site. However good it may be, We need immediate action now, not a brush off to some website.
Fraud
now that i have ruined your little con scam, you figure you can run around and troll me to get even. have fun little troll, eventually your kind is the garbage that gets flushed out.
you seek to consolidate efforts in one place so they are easily controlled. you are a fraud. the movement is decentralized and it's going to stay that way, Bud.
right, thats why my network page lists 8 other wikis.
you are the fraud, and you are merely accusing me of what i have already shown you to be guilty of.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Network
lol, you have a link to my project on there. so why do you keep trying to run me off again? and why did you try to run off occupynews?
maybe you should pay closer attention to what i am actually saying.
You guys are promoting BLOGS. BLOGS limit the energy for conversation and hem people in to walled gardens.
Blogs won't give us an information revolution, they can't organize the workload.
Blogs won't facilitate a revolution, and they won't get us past the rhetoric and noise and disorganization problems we face. BLOGS are part of the problem.
Initially, this was my point. When i encountered resistance to this, i'm reality testing what that resistance is about.
It becomes quickly clear where the integrity is, as i push a few buttons.
That in turn changes the issue.
175 people on a blog site is 175 people whos contribution to the revolution has been shuffled into a closet.
I'm objecting on objective systemic grounds to people being sucked into blogs.
Its not personal, until you guys make it so.
I'm not promoting MY wiki exclusively, i am promoting the absolutely needed and critical solution of wikis and an information centered paradigm shift; in general.
Whats going on? People are promoting themselves. Promoting their sites. And I'm pointing out that those sites create extra drag, extra problems for the network to solve.
"Occupy will die if it is focused on rhetoric. "
I'm 5 tickets deep and working on workshops for my local occupy. Of course i am aware that many people are doing many different things.
My argument makes no assumption, it simply states as is factually true that blogs have assorted informational limitations. This movement is frankly hanging on the line and losing it, because of all the people that have decided they can afford to not pay attention to the few of us who really do know what a revolution would consist of. Blogs won't facilitate a revolution.
Thats 175 or between both of you some X number of hundreds of people who won't make critical collaborative connections, because they are using a primitive and limiting software system instead of a wiki. Thats hundreds of people who could have and should have been walked to a wiki that were walked to a blog instead.
There are only two possibilities in this. Either you guys don't understand the systemic and game problems, or, you do, and thats the point. Blog softwares assorted limitations creates walled gardens inside of the network, does not allow for collaborative re-editing, does not allow for dynamic organization, and etc. I am repeating myself over and over again here. This is not my personal objection, this is what objective science and objective understanding of how a revolution has to work online has to say about it.
When i am still waiting for the revolution to even start, and i come and find that hundreds of people are being shuffled away to blogs, and understand that this is WHY the revolution still has yet to start- that is the core problem of problems. Everyones having their energy dispersed, instead of actually bringing it all together.
Thats a fatal error if we want anything real to happen. Its a fatal error if we want a revolution. And its exactly how the elites want this to play out and why this elite created and controlled forum is such a big fat mess, instead of 1001 sub forums and a wiki.
The entire idea is to make us talk past each other, miss each other, and lose all the content in a signal to noise ratio shit storm.
And operating blogs plays into that, makes the problems worse, and makes the chances of a real revolution less and less likely.
If one of your writers is looking to make such awesome documents, they should obviously be on a wiki, not a blog, so that others can add and edit and work with him on those documents.
Competing with mainstream media is a key point here. 1001 blogs can;t compete with mainstream media, but one wiki can.
I don't need to confer with or ask experts. While I am not an IT guy, I studied systems and game theory and paradigmology and sociology and etc, So I have a very good working knowledge of what is going on well over the heads of most people.
when the only thing that can truly save us is a new way of relating, we need to be looking for software which supports that new way of relating, not software which in essence cages us in the old way of relating.
There is a nuts and bolts scientific and pragmatic understanding here, about how revolutions must work, which those who work on blogs are entirely missing. Chit chat won't get us a revolution. Emit and respond won't get us a revolution. Questions and Answers won't get us a revolution. Only collaborative and cooperative cocreation is going to give us a revolution, and so while it may seem harsh from a subjective pov, It is my responsibility in this to put a foot down.
I'm all for those people, and all for everyone having their freedom of speech. What i am not for is losing the chance we had to have a revolution because everyone gets sucked into blogging instead of collaborating.
With the survival of the human species hanging in the balance, I can't just walk away and shrug my shoulders and wait another twenty years to be able to say "i told you so."
I predicted the second great depression twenty years ago. I predicted the continental heat dome which we just had as a new form of weather- 20 years ago. And I can promise you, this movement will fail if it can;t get off the blogs, and onto the wikis.
well it's a good thing we have a smart guy like you to tell us all what to do then. i could care less what you and all of your anthropology buddies have to say about it. we can see the problems first hand, we live it every day. we don't need some ass hat that has only experienced the type of live we lead via text books and research. to me, you are no different than rich people that give handouts simply because the idea of poverty and poor people intrigues them like some twisted fetish.
You seem to miss intentionally yet again and on purpose the simple fact that I was born into poverty, and a dysfunctional family, and have been thus fighting the battle of intelligent poor people against corporate oligarchy my entire life.
You also seem, as many people do, to reflexively hate intellectual knowledge or truth, way to go, thats exactly how the oligarchs control you.
I for one appreciate the power of knowledge and thats why i took the time to get some.
Anti intellectualism is a disease, and its particularly pathetic as an ego defense when you don't have that knowledge yourself.
you're not an IT guy, you even admit. yet you pretend to tell me, an IT guy, how to compete on the web? yeah, that isn't a huge head on your shoulders. I scored 172. fk off.
all of the IT knowledge in the world means nothing if you don't understand psychology, sociology, game theory... etc. Mechanistic utility means nothing where its a sociology and information problem.
IT tech guys seem to think that everything revolves around the technology. No, everything revolves around human beings and their complexities, and lacking an understanding of those complexities, it won't matter how IT tech smart you are.
Much like any other science. A physics problem doesn't solve with the knowledge gained by an english major. A 12 year law degree does not prepare you to do surgery.
And being IT tech smart in and of itself does not prepare you to facilitate a revolution.
you run people off instead of networking with them and try to say you understand how people work? it's not just me, i can post many examples of you running people off.
right, like we didn't see that coming from miles off.
i submit to you thats pretty silly, because first, thats a projection, on your part, second, I'm the one doing the work, third, I'm right and this is just another ad hom because you can't manage to make an argument, and fourth, My psyche is quite resolved, I am also an expert in psychonautics and have done THAT work as well.
lastly, he who has no argument content and ad homs proves... hes got no argument.
You keep trying to shift this conversation to make it about me.
I keep talking about deep real things like why blogs are a problem not part of the solution.
You take that personally because you are providing blogging services...ultimately... I'm saying your contribution as such is counter productive.
So whos projecting? your defensive, the issue can't really be argued, so you want to make this about me.
No, the truth of the matter is i am right, i am sane, i am lucid, and you have nothing but your impossible to defend fatal errors and a pile of shit and noise.
i suggest to you that you have a problem with your shadow that is causing you to project. stick that in your psyche and smoke it.
I'm standing up for the truth on the other side of the problem solving.
its not just about networking, its about standing up for the evolutionary truth.
I'm not running anybody off, I'm doing all the work while people like you actually suck the life out of the movement.
If you or they can't handle the truth, then firstly, thats your problem, secondly, its only a matter of time till the rest of us get lucid as the pain gets worse, and thirdly, you wouldn't have made a useful ally in the first place, and fourthly, you will be back, because you don't have solutions, just noise, and no matter whether you are a paid troll or a sincere occupy participant, civilization is on fire and its going to burn you personally- sooner or later.
Sirs, a very fruitful discussion. Part of the OWS movement is the Internet and other new technologies. Internet takes you from this point to other points and then to other points. Audio-visuals (youtube etc.) are very time consuming and their numbers like the number of people who have something to say on the Internet is immense. This is the reality on the ground. This is the reality of this new battlefield. Generals cannot enlist people, train them, organise them, give them files and ranks and uniforms and weapons and send them to combat positions. All participants are generals and all fronts are porous and enemies can easily infiltrate and crawl into your trenches. You have to solve problems of this new warfare, in the most advanced technological society.
A New Economic Paradigm
The distributed nature of renewable energies necessitates collaborative rather than hierarchical command and control mechanisms. This new lateral energy regime establishes the organizational model for the countless economic activities that multiply from it. A more distributed and collaborative industrial revolution, in turn, invariably leads to a more distributed sharing of the wealth generated.
Three of the four largest companies in the world today are oil companies — Royal Dutch Shell, Exxon Mobil, and BP. Underneath these giant energy companies are five hundred global companies representing every sector and industry — with a combined revenue of $22.5 trillion, which is the equivalent of one-third of the world’s $62 trillion GDP — that are inseparably connected to and dependent on fossil fuels for their very survival.
The oil business is one of the largest industries in the world. It’s also the most costly enterprise for collecting, processing, and distributing energy ever conceived. Virtually all of the other critical industries that emerged from the oil culture and feed off of the fossil fuel spigot — modern finance, automotive, power and utilities, and telecommunications — were, in one way or another, similarly predisposed to bigness in order to achieve their own economies of scale. And, like the oil industry, they require huge sums of capital to operate and are organized in a centralized fashion.
Sign a State Constitutional Amendment for Renewable Energy Targets!
Put the discredited oil & gas industry out of business. We can create our own energy – right here and now. We can create a new collaborative lateral energy regime owned and created by the people.
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The most important thing that has to be addressed is campaign reform. We must get corporate money out of politics.Candidates should have to disclose to the public the origins of donations.Donations should be from individuals and not groups. There should be a cap on how much any individual can donate.
Excellent idea, we also need to get thrown out the law that corporations are a person as this is how they get around the law. Also limit the time in office to 2 terms for both the senate and congress with no retirement package other then the same as anyone else and take away their authority to give themselves a raise.
in order to invoke Article V
"This convention can be assembled at the request of the legislatures of at least two-thirds of the several states. To become part of the Constitution, amendments must then be ratified either by approval of the legislatures of three-fourths of the states or ratifying conventions held in three-fourths of the states. "
we'd need to be in control to the state legislators
That's right!
Answer, someone - at least one question in this post, and this may be the beginning: http://occupywallst.org/forum/four-questions/
Occupy is not ready to make that step yet.
why not?
go to one and ask. please.
Larceny, not greed, s/b the focus of Occupy.
Corporations confiscating America’s savings are the root cause of our current financial state. I have worked the trenches. I am a retired computer financial systems analyst. A decade of looting has impoverished the middle class to subsidize corporate goals: Lavish executive pay. legions of lobbyists, profit growth exceeding GDP growth, campaign funding as of 2010, M&A frenzy, etc. The illicit transfer of funds from the masses to a few created a huge wealth gap. With fewer solvent customers, commerce slowed and the market tanked. Retirement dreams have faded. Jobs outlook is bleak.Housing is kaput. Ad nauseam. This crime wave has brought us to the brink of ruin. A democracy is being traitorously forged into a plutocracy. Greed is not illegal but larceny is. Alert the Administration, daily. Harangue your Congressmen. Enlighten your friends. If you incurred substantial losses since 2000 insist the FBI investigate your situation. Impale or hang in effigy the SEC as a poor guardian / rogue cop / gang leader.
We know there is something fundamentally wrong with the very way the political and economic system is set up and are beginning to search for a new economic vision that can put people back to work and establish a more responsive governing framework.
By what authority have corporations, the peoples subordinate entities, appointed and allowed to exist by the people, been, in the totality of their actions, engaged in assault upon the sovereign people of the United States of America?
The life of a corporation is less than that of the humblest citizen. Corporations that have assaulted the sovereign people of the United States and the World will have their charters revoked and assets distributed amongst the sovereign people.
Sovereign people do not wait outside the boardrooms of corporations like the subordinate entities of the robots that we created. A corporations nature is to control, to get political power, to limit competition, to rise up against their creator and recreate the conditions of their own existence.
We don’t negotiate with subordinate entities. Corporations are not people; they are born in lawyer offices, only exist on paper, have no soul and can never die.
We have to be accountable to one another and to our forebears and our posterity by asserting our authority over all the institutions we create, business or government.
We’re not being socially responsible or civically accountable when we play by corporate rules in corporate arenas. We’re not being socially responsible or civically accountable when we don’t act like sovereign people. We’re not being socially responsible or civically accountable when we permit our elected officials to bargain away our sovereignty.
Right On! I don't support the regime in China, however in the news they are dealing with corporate criminals the way we should...
I hate to say it but as for New York I think we let a 1% 5'3" tall egotistical mayor kill and boast about killing the movement. I see a great decline in participation,but I'll continue to spend my weekends getting involved.I'm quite disappointed
Like the fog which forms when conditions are right and disappears when they are not, so must the resistance to tyranny be.
END THE FED!
http://www.bilderberg.org
Peak Oil - Michael C. Rupperts Peak Oil Blog
http://www.fromthewilderness.com
http://www.china-intern.de/page/wirtschaft-hintergrund/1318019478.html
100 A staggering 48.5% of all Americans live in a household that receives some form of government benefits. Back in 1983, that number was below 30 percent.
99 During the Obama administration, the U.S. government has accumulated more debt than it did from the time that George Washington took office to the time that Bill Clinton took office.
Alternatives:
http://www.larouchepac.com
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don't forget Australia and the world too!
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Occupy is dying anyways. American citizens are getting tired of you loons
“Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.
If your not familiar with Frederick Douglass, he was a black man, most likely the first black political activist in his thinking. He was an adviser to President Lincoln. He was born a slave and later became a free man, learned to read when it was forbidden in the culture of the day for a colored person to be taught to read. Very intelligent man and worth checking out his advice.
Occupy is going down the hole because of its obsession to compare itself with other movements that are absolutely unrelated to the socio-polical-economic problems of America. Occupy needs to be focused on solutions by and for America, not solutions by Ghandi for India of half a century ago, not solutions by protesters of the Arab Springs in dictatorships, not solutions from communist China, etc...
(The latest news article on this site states Occupy is preparing a strike to support the Chinese strikers.) http://occupywallst.org/article/solidarity-striking-chinese-workers/#comments
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what you fail to realize is we have to think global. we create war and suffering around the globe. it's time we show our government that we stand with the people of the world and let them stand with us. let the powers that be take notice and be on notice.
I don't fail to realize that. I agree. But thinking global does not mean using the tactics used in specific socio-political-economic circumstances and applying them blindly to solve the problems of America, or the world today. Occupy is not using global solutions, it's using solutions developed in highly specific circumstances, from other countries, from other times. Thinking global does not mean abandoning local solutions. Both have to work in tandem.
agreed
No, just choking on ambition.....Canadian style...
Luckily, we don't have half your problems in Canada.
why even entertain the counterproductive nonsense.
I was hoping to lead her on a little further so that I could start talking about fat slob like greasy burger eating Coca-Cola bucket drinking Jerry Springer re-run watching poorly educated Americans. I always enjoy veering the discussion in that direction when people attack Canada. It's not that I care about the attack per se, she might be right and we do have a lot of problems in Canada, it's just that I like to talk about fat slob like greasy burger eating Coca-Cola bucket drinking Jerry Springer re-run watching poorly educated Americans.
see: http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-will-die-if-it-is-focused-on-rhetoric/#comment-429807
You should thank God for Juno on D-Day...........at least I respect that sacrifice you will never comprehend......................
Canadians did a lot in WWII. We got in from the start, not half way through like Americans. We made our own sacrifices. Read some books.
You know Juno was only possible because of a prior reconnaissance mission in Dieppe, Normandy right? That mission was mostly led by Canadians, and we lost a lot of lives.
Furthermore, I never said I wasn't grateful for America, so I have no idea why you think I'm not and why you bring this up. I said I am happy we have fewer problems in Canada. I like my free health care, and the fact that we don't have so many religious fanatics and fat slobs.
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I read more than you could ever comprehend...declaration that is symbolic versus extensive allocation of men and machinary are two different things....1939 vs 1941 means little...you want to compare true sacrifice? Please.............
What's your take on fat slob like greasy burger eating Coca-Cola bucket drinking Jerry Springer re-run watching poorly educated Americans?
Oh boy! You just clearly AVOIDED my response to your seemingly clever take 11minutes ago...what's wrong? Who or what did not love you as child? Do you feel wronged? Life not fair? YAWN!!! Come on child, try again.
read: http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-will-die-if-it-is-focused-on-rhetoric/#comment-429798
My only interest here is to talk about fat slob like greasy burger eating Coca-Cola bucket drinking Jerry Springer re-run watching poorly educated Americans. I'm using a red herring on purpose.
Is your husband/wife a fat slob like greasy burger eating Coca-Cola bucket drinking Jerry Spring re-run- watching poorly educated American?
Please, repeat the above to avoid your clear ignorance....it must make you feel good. I guess I will sum this up for you.....long live Canada....thrasymaque will show you how to retreat and surrender as good as the French. When you would like to engage in true discussion..let me know...otherwise.....enjoy your own world....
I agree with you with my whole heart. Canadians choke on ambition, and everyone on the planet should be thankful for the wars America was and is waging. You are the protectors of us all. I'm in 100% agreement with you. America #1.
So, what's your take on fat slob like greasy burger eating Coca-Cola bucket drinking Jerry Springer re-run watching poorly educated Americans?
I know...I get your slant.....America sucks...we've done ill in ww1 and ww 2.....the cold war.....when the shit hits the fan with a natural disaster, the US does nothing.....in fact, we give less to global relief than all the collective global countries together.....please,let's dance more - such an easy target....
No, I really agree with you. America is #1. I love Woody Allen, Steve Reich, Fred Astaire, Chuck Norris, and many more.
I just want to talk about fat slob like greasy burger eating Coca-Cola bucket drinking Jerry Springer re-run watching poorly educated Americans. What do you think about them?
The bait has LONG well worn several posts ago.....and meanwhile, you thought that you were intellectually cute.......wow.....feeling insignificant yet? Well, I need to now fully bask in my 1% life. A 5000 count egyptian bed and a draught of 32 y.o. Scotch.........YAWN....night Canadaian.
Here are two American tourists in Thailand. They were guests on Jerry Springer where they won free tickets for this getaway. One is fat slob-like greasy burger eating Coca-Cola bucket drinking poorly educated American, the other is a midget. I don't have information on the midget's education. I feel bad for the fatso. Look at the crests in his pants. I think he might be suffering from PUC. They're going fishing now, but they'll be in Bangkok bars later tonight for an adventure they'll never forget.
Here's a picture of American women. Which one do you prefer? I think the first one has a Baroque quality which definitely hits home. Her little feet are ballet like don't you think? I would like to see her perform an elegant arabesque.
I was wondering why you think American children want to emulate the Michelin Man?
I agree. You provided strong arguments to show why America should be considered the best country in the world. You won that debate with precision, elegance, and flair. And, yes, Canadians lack ambition. They have amorphous minds. All of them. America is #1, and probably always will be.
The following map proves your claim. I was debating some of its details with a fellow theoretician. My position was that the 'pussies' label should be in Thailand, but he was adamant that it should remain in Europe. His argument was that Thailand is about a certain type of pussy - The Child Pussy - and that the generalized label 'pussies' would therefor undermine the specificity of the American to pussy relation in this country. What is your position on this issue?
As a wholly unabashed and patriotic American I must take offense to your completely inaccurate statements and this map!
Actually that's a complete b.s. lie. I'm quite abashed, often ashamed to call myself an American and think that map is absolutely hilarious. Best laugh I've had all night. I'd like to have a copy to hang on my wall. Keep up that rapier-like wit, Thrasymaque, I for one, quite enjoy it, even if it's at our expense some times. We deserve it. By the way, it's 'Springer.' Jerry Springer, one of the biggest wastes of human flesh in the 'lower 48.' Just sayin'. ;-)
Lol....oh Fuck...lol