Forum Post: Occupy Wall Street Is A Libertarian Movment
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 8, 2011, 6:53 p.m. EST by ProFreedom101
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We are not a far left movement, we are a libertarian movement. I seen a list of demands posted by another member that stated that he wanted a single payer healthcare system, an amendment for racial and gender equality, and a borderless country (yea… ok.) All of these are far left ideas that infringe on our liberty. Having an amendment that mandates gender or racial equality is no different than having an amendment that mandates racial or gender inequality. The point is to not have laws that mandate anything! Let people live and express their opinions as they please without the government mandating the people to do anything! That is what a free society is all about!
BTW, we also have to be very careful to not let the opposition control us. The drawback of having a movement without any agenda is that the opposition is going to try to control us and put these far left, or far right, ideas in our heads to misrepresent us and or to discredit us. We have to weed these people out of our movement, not let them represent us, and stick to the important issues at hand. And the # 1 most important issue is to END THE FEDERAL RESERVE AND ISSUE INTEREST FREE CURRENCY TO OURSELVES! If we stand for any one thing it should be that. Next I would say END MANDATES! However, all issues after “end the fed” are trivial but here is a great list that I seen another member had posted:
1) Abolish the Federal Reserve. 2) Allow the citizens to vote on the issues and not just on the candidates. 3) No government mandates on anything. 4) Eliminate Lobbyists. 5) Create infallible, triple redundant voting under constitutional guidance. 6) Decentralize the media and let every political ideology argue its merits on a purely intellectual level. That even means giving time to ideologies that are extreme such as communism, fascism, separatism, etc. 7) End all programs and practices that subconsciously promote socio-psychological programming for any ism or belief (movies- TV shows.) 8) Revert to the Gold and Silver standards as black letter law states in the US Constitution. 9) Give rights back to the states. 10) 10% flat tax on everyone to end this class warfare BS. 11) Reinstate tariffs on imported good and end the outsourcing of jobs. 12) End campaign financing and give every politician a set amount of money and TV time. 13) 911 Investigation.
I'm Libertarian. Occupy Wall Street IS NOT a Libertarian movement. Anyone who comes here claiming otherwise is forsaking their
values.
Libertarianism looks to minimize government involvement in our lives.
Occupy's one and only statement that everyone seems to agree on is "We the 99% will no longer tolerate the wealth and greed of the
1%"
No matter how this is interpreted or implemented, it requires depriving some people of something for the greater good of the "larger"
group. (Sound familiar? Anyone here ever taken a history class?)
To do that, requires maximizing government involvement in our lives.
This also violates the Libertarian value of Individual Property Rights.
Here are some other things that Occupy DOES NOT have in common with Libertarianism.
Privatization of Education. (And pretty much every other social function the government provides)
Abolishing Income Tax entirely (who will pay for the underclass now?)
The Rule of Law (Libertarians believe in our Constitutional Republic which protects minorities, not modern day Democracy).
Just to name a few. If 'original' OSW supporters don't consider themselves ultra liberals, or Democrats...they've certainly made it hard
to believe.
All these ideas are possible, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Imagine a Revolution To every empire the end has come. To every paper currency failure has occurred. To every society there comes a turning point; in America we turn now. I ask you to imagine a once free America. Imagine an America which promoted individual liberty and personal responsibility, not a welfare state. Imagine an America where the Constitution applied to everyone and every case, no matter how bad the crime or criminal at suspect. Imagine an America restrained by the Constitution, due process and the rule of law. Imagine an America devoid of secret watch lists, secret prisons and secret assassinations. Imagine a moral society which only engaged in just war and only as a last resort.
Imagine an America, where the decision to go to war, is actually one declared by congress. Imagine an America which never endorsed the use of preventive wars to promote peace. Imagine an America where torture was never acceptable, even if called "enhanced" interrogation techniques. Imagine an America in which a warrant was always required to search or seize persons or property. Imagine an America which respected the writ of habeas corpus and condemned indefinitely detaining individuals.
Imagine an America where prosperity wasn't derived from private printing presses, but from true wealth. Imagine an America not ravished by endlessly spending a fiat currency in pursuit of economic growth; all the while promoting the welfare and warfare state. Imagine an America which encouraged savings while destroying that very possibility by devaluing the currency through the deceitful act of controlled monetary inflation. Imagine an America where coins were still worth their weight. Imagine an American in which gold and silver were actually legal tender. Imagine an America where children are not arrested for front yard lemonade stands. Imagine an America where you couldn’t be arrested and jailed for gardening on your property. Imagine an America without checkpoints where blood could be drawn without warrant, against one's will. I ask you to imagine an America where citizens could make the simple decision to drink raw milk. Imagine an America which valued personal choice and responsibility above dictating morality through law. Imagine an America which allowed companies to actually protect their property and customers. Imagine an America where individuals actually had the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as long as they didn’t endanger others. Imagine if rights were derived from creation, and not from government. Imagine now an America in which citizens understood and respected the experiment of liberty began by their forefathers. Imagine now an America which still embraces the tired, the poor, and the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Imagine now an America where the wretched refuse, the homeless, those searching for the New Colossus could venture to experience liberty. Imagine America no longer safeguarded the liberty they sought, but only the security and secrecy of the state. Imagine an America where ignorance isn’t sold as wisdom and tolerance not delivered by force. Imagine an America where politicians stood behind American principles. Imagine an America where oath to the Constitution was taken seriously and always upheld. Imagine an America of resounding liberty; not one of ever incrementally increasing tyranny. Imagine America as she once was: free and prosperous. Now try to imagine an idea. Imagine an idea so powerful, so strong in it conviction, no army or government could stop it. Imagine a return of the respect of the Constitution. Imagine a return to due process and the rule of law. Imagine a return to sound currency and sound monetary policy. Imagine the abolishment of our partaking down the dangerous path of legislating morality. Imagine a return to a foreign policy of freedom and not of preemptive wars and nation building. Imagine the return to the ideals of extending friendship to all, and having entangling alliances with no one. Above all else, Imagine liberty and understand the responsibility having it demands from each of us. Imagine America not as an Empire but as a Republic if we could keep it. Imagine if we had the chance to Restore America Now. Imagine a Revolution.
RONPAULFLIX.com
I see Libertarians are trying to co-opt the Movement.
You're welcome to join, but you can leave your dogmas at the door.
This is a LIVING, THINKING movement, which didn't find its program in a chinese cookie or a bubblegum machine.
I see it the same way, and the Libertarians are the ones i see destroying this movement. I am not a Libertarian and i do not support their economic views in anyway shape or form. If this turns into a left, right, libertarian, Republican, Progressive or Democrat movement. i won't support this movement and i think most people supporting the OWS movement feel the same way. This is not about a political point of view.
I agree, this is BEYOND left, right, Republican or Democrat. It's like motherhood or human rights, such BASIC COMMON SENSE values that any sane human being should be in favor.
The problem in America is that over the past few decades, the lunatics have taken control of the asylum... Have you seen "Inside Job"? Many of the principal players are clearly sociopaths. Greed is a very human foible, but at that degree it becomes pathological and a menace to the very survival of civilized society. These people must be charged and the system which gave them free rein must be changed.
Either we move decisively in that direction... or do nothing and let America self-destruct. As you say, this is not about political stripe, it is about basic SANITY and collective SELF-PRESERVATION!
Very well said my friend ! =)
"I see Libertarians are trying to co-opt the Movement"
Me too. It's scary.
Oh, so you are the official spokesperson for the movement? Your comment is hypocritical. It is akin to saying, "we can exercise our free speech, as long as you abide by our rules." Sounds like GWBII and those that OWS is protesting. Everyone has a right to voice their opinions. A truly enlightened individual would not respond in the way that you have done.
No, I am NOT the "official spokesperson" for the Movement, but I have been studying it closely from Day 1 and I can hear these brave young people at Liberty Plaza tell the world: "We are a living, thinking movement... At this stage, we have no program, no "quick fixes", no magic solutions. That is why we hold General Assemblies every day: to discuss amongst ourselves America's future". That is why I wrote: "Please leave your dogmas at the door".
If you like to think that my comment is "hypocritical" or that I sound like Dubya "and those that OWS is protesting", then what can I say, O Truly Enlightened One?
Your emotional response betrays you. How can you think clearly when self-criticism is absent? Dogma is dogma, and until you accept the failings of your own thoughts, you will be unable to perceive those of those you fear.
My response is not emotional... it is simply ironic. Or can't you tell the difference?
Who is in fear, o Enlightened One? Who is dogmatic and incapable of self-criticism?
I am a left libertarian. I see myself agreeing with a lot of the points in the original post. My problem comes with point. 3, 7, 8(which effects #1), 10, 13.
I guess I'll run through why I don't thing those steps are necessary in fixing our current problems.
Point 3. If you are going to have step 2 where normal people can vote on issues and not only candidates drastically reducing the power of the commons to effect the state in effect crippling their power from the start so I can't see myself supporting that.
Point 7. TV shows and movies are just a reflection on society, they do not steer social consciousness, social consciousness is what steers them.
Point 8. Our economy is far to dynamic to have it crippled by a monetary policy based around a precious metal. When our economy had only say 2 major industries I could see this working out but we have grown far to much to restructure in such a devastating way. I have no problem with restructuring the federal reserve to be an arm of the commons which would abolish the current system but standards based on precious metals would be destructive.
Point 10. We would not bring in nearly enough revenue under this sort of tax system to pay for even common things.
Point 13. It has been investigated, adding this point in only serves to disenfranchise those who might join this movement. Focus on the system, which is our real problem, not the noise.
It wouldn't be the most prudent course of action to abolish the Fed in the current global economic climate for one simple reason: the US dollar is the world's currency reserve and as soon as one country drops it the rest will follow- immediately destroying what we have left of an economy.
As welcome as that may sound on many fronts, it's only going to delay a transitional recovery, not expidite it.
First of all, open borders are a libertarian idea as well. Second of all speak for yourself.
Umm, no it is not!!!!
Wall Street is not the real problem. Our government wants us to get angry with them so it will take our attention away from them. The government allows Wall Street to steal from the public. If you have not noticed Congress no longer writes nor reads legistration they vote on. What interest in Wall Street do you think those contracted to write the legistation have? Would you be surprised to find them listed on Wall Street? To top everything else the President rewards Congress's irresponibilty by signing into law legistation neither written or read by Congress. Now can you see why Wall Street does what it does.
Wall street is the puppet master, our elected officials are the puppets. I think protesting at the source of the problem is appropriate.
Wall Street is not the real problem. Our government wants us to get angry with them so it will take our attention away from them. The government allows Wall Street to steal from the public. If you have not noticed Congress no longer writes nor reads legistration they vote on. What interest in Wall Street do you think those contracted to write the legistation have? Would you be surprised to find them listed on Wall Street? To top everything else the President rewards Congress's irresponibilty by signing into law legistation neither written or read by Congress. Now can you see why Wall Street does what it does.
Wall street is the government. The idea is to have the government represent people not business. If you weaken the government and deregulate the economy then people have no protection from tyranny. If you think for two seconds you'll understand.
Um no. Libertarians are not for the initiation of force to take from one individual or entity and give to another. Sorry. Next?
I don't quite follow you, mon capitaine... Would you mind elaborating?
Well, someone has to pay for the FREE education and Universal healthcare advocated by OWS. How does one get an unwilling person to pay for it without the initiation of force?
Well, mon capitaine, have you ever heard of a faraway land called Canada? Geez, they have had universal healthcare (public system) for about 40 years and their economy is doing MUCH better in every way than America's. Hmmm...
On Wikipedia, you'll even find that Tommy Douglas, who initiated the plan, is the most admired Canadian of all time...
TOO BAD he didn't have a loooooooooong talk with you before coming up with such a monstrous idea!
I'm just saying, you can't claim to be a libertarian if you are for the initiation of force. Sorry. No one will buy it.
When universal healthcare was introduced in Canada - just as it was in the UK, in France, in Germany, etc,, there was no "initiation of force" whatsoever. Sure, the profiteers in the health insurance industry lost their golden calf, but the people AND SIMPLE COMMON SENSE prevailed and - believe it or not! - there was no civil war over it.
Quite the contrary, Canadians were extremely proud and remain very protective of their health plan and they pray that their neighbors to the south may one day enjoy the blessings of a true, single-payer public plan, far superior to the disappointing "Obamacare" compromise.
So when they TOOK the private property of individuals who had invested in one way or another in the healthcare system, NO ONE was against it? LOL! They had to use force to initiate the socialist wealth transfer scheme, otherwise people would not have gone along with it. Also, up until just recently, there was a LAW in Canada that there couldn't be a private health system, because everyone knew that people with means would jump out of the socialist system. The Canadian supreme court overturned that a few years ago. Can't remember exactly when but it was in the 2000's. What do you call it when the government BANS a legal activity that is beneficial to people? If it were the government banning pot you would call it tyranny.
Mon cher capitaine, What, pray tell, would you know about my opinions on "pot" or its legalization???
Dude. Peace out. Have a nice evening.
You're right, it's time to end this pointless EGO VERSUS EGO duel... I'm not a "dude", by the way, but a man of good will and so are you. Peace to you, have a good night, and let's all wake up tomorrow a little bit wiser and more thoughtful..