Forum Post: Occupy the TROLLS
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 3:42 p.m. EST by Toddtjs
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0 comments 5 days ago by agkaiser
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I think it's sad that everyone just tries to cut down anyone that posts anything on here, it's all i ever read. Never any positive messages or support for ideas. Nothing will get accomplished like this. We're on the same side. We all want to see some changes.
i support this idea http://www.radiokazoo.net/OPV/
These "other" people are simply unhappy with themselves and need to blame the outside world. We are the perfect target right now.
Seriously, respect the posters as intelligent humans, and you will be respected in return. If you can't protest, you can learn, reach out, respond to people's questions in an intelligent manner. Sure there are trolls and infiltrators, but there will always be, and you can't let them make you paranoid and reactionary.
I do, but there is so much internal bickering and fighting. It makes most people I try to turn onto OCCUPY turn away because they feel like it's pointless.
Welcome to the internet. You must be new here...
It is really hard to get, takes a lot of love for the cause. I also don't mean to direct that post at you, but in general. I've been on these forums for the past 2 weeks and seen them change in format, seen automated, computerized trolling, and had some real discussions. I'm not into protesting, but I am very much into results, even if it's convincing one person at a time.
Also it is much easier to hate than to like. As the movement grows, it gains a certain amount of authority, and we all hate authority. Haters are often lazy and often looking for attention.
All you need is <3
Please read: http://occupywallst.org/forum/can-we-end-the-fed/
This isn't an attack on the rich. There is nothing wrong with being rich. There is a problem with being rich and stealing from the poor. There is a problem with few people controlling the wealth, and to that end there is a problem when those who control the wealth are not helping their country and society progress.
How do the rich steal from the poor?
Think about it like this. Rich people put extra money in the banking system in order to earn more money without doing anything productive. On the other hand, poor people borrow money from the bank which they then pay interest on, so that they can grow the bank account of rich people. Much of the middle class inevitably become enslaved to their debt. Is that the free market? An endless cycle of debt? An economy which utilizes war to sustain itself. Fuck naw. That aint right. That aint American.
Whether you'd like to believe it or not, we are all enslaved to the mass debt that America has accrued over the years. What will we do? How can we break free?
End the Federal Reserve. It's unconstitutional and damn-fucking immoral.
Some say real free-market economics is the best system, although we've never really seen what that looks like. The Federal Reserve squashed any hopes of a free-market economy. In my opinion the most innovative, necessary, and implementable solution is a resource based economy.
Project Earth: A Resource Based Economy Explained http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
If you love capitalism, but hate the Federal Reserve, ask yourself this: if the current market is a failure, how can you erase the world's debt? We in the US owe the world everything. Not only are we indebted to the world literally, but we, the leaders of the free world, have been leading the destruction of the environment for how long? Do we not owe it to the world to fix it? We have much of the world's resources, we have the greatest education system in the world, what are we doing wrong?!?! Why do we not take it upon ourselves to construct a sustainable global economy that is based on the natural resources of the planet and use this global economy the repay our debt to the world? I know people love to fantasize about the wealthy and powerful America, but listen, we're indebted to the world! Time to grow a pair and pay the world back. And I know, a resource based economy is “Communist” and “Utopian” STOP ASSIGNING MEAINGLESS WORDS TO IDEAS. The system is a resource based economy, and it is neither communist nor utopian.
The ticket is to be positive and do not repeat negative crap people will think you’re a troll. Try to cooperate rather than to disseminate antagonism. Be part of this historical moment and embrace the revolution because real change will soon become a reality. No one will be able to stop this roaring hurricane.
In the 'hunter-gatherer' sense of the word survival, actual, physical interaction is required.
Social-media is a good tool to disseminate a message, but there is no compareable semblance of checks and balances that exist there , that exists with actual interaction.
Go find your local GA, and decide for yourself.
What are trolls in the context of the 99? Are they part of the 99? What now, are we going to occupy each other's territory. Nothing the 1% would like more...
Demographically, they're part of the 99% too. This is for their rights too, whether they like it or not, the same as it is for those who don't even know about the movement. The 99% is NOT restricted to those who have internet and are taking part in the protests. It's bigger than that...which means it includes some unsavoury elements.
"Monsieur l'abbé, je déteste ce que vous écrivez, mais je donnerai ma vie pour que vous puissiez continuer à écrire."
If OWS is going to be 'the 99' - they're going to need to do some amazing and sacrificial outreach to people that they don't agree with on many subjects - and that in order to oppose our common enemies. Does no good to infight!
Yeah. Here in ATX we've been discovering firsthand that democracy is not always a smooth matter of consensus. We WILL come to loggerheads, and we're going to have to make compromises – as well as continue outreach. The people who disagree with us the most stridently should be the ones we most strongly want to bring into the discussion. The trick there is mutual respect. The internet likely isn't where we're going to win that particular battle; at least not on largely-anonymised forums.
Still, the more we can react to trolling and other forms of opposition with a welcoming attitude the more minds we can open.
Great points - well said. It will need to happen for the movement to truly sink roots and thrive.
Kurt Cobain lived under a bridge for a while. He was occupying the trolls since before it was cool.
I agree, I became active during Nixon's reign, have dozens of years of experience on how to do Actions. But continue to be assailed by those the seek to do nothing but belittle.
I came to this site Friday night to offer my assistance as a non-profit organizer. I can do basic coding of web pages, accounting, and other functions.
Mainly I wanted to get some sanitation facilities out to Zucotto (sic) park.
In a matter of about 20 minutes I found over 15 contact listings, and left vmail and email on every one of them.
24 hours later, no response. They aren't even updating the site anymore.
Where did everyone, and the "tens of thousands" http://afgj.org/?p=1765#more-1765 of dollars go?
Well, the General Assembly never was in the US, they are operating out of a hotel room somewhere in Nicaragua, and the money has been deposited in a Central American bank.
How could the people do this to our citizens, how can members of our government support this?
They have to know, it only took me 20 minutes to find out, and they had days and hundreds of people on their staffs.
I'm a centrist who came here as a potential supporter to see what this was all about because I'm concerned about disproportionate influence from tea baggers who know how to organize voting drives. I've been labeled a troll, a shill, a right-winger, and a 'pawn of Halliburton', mostly for suggesting that this protest will amount to nothing if the protesters can't translate their energy into votes.
As a result, this movement has failed to win my support. There isn't even anything to support. My intent when I say that, is to provide some feedback to the protesters who theoretically are trying to capture the support of the mainstream. None of this is going to amount to anything unless the protesters can learn to convince people who don't already agree with them.
"disproportionate influence from tea baggers who know how to organize voting drives."
This makes you a centrist - wow. You certainly don't represent all of the 99 with comments like that.
Ron Paul 2012.
I don't understand your post. Are you objecting to the term "tea baggers"? I don't claim to represent 99% of the population like many of the people here do. The extremists on both sides look ridiculous from the point of view of a centrist. That includes both the Tea Party and also Occupy Wall Street.
Yes. Tea baggers is a term of disrespect for tea partiers - you know that. I'm a tea partier and also a supporter of Ron Paul 2012. You're right, my '99' comment didn't apply to you as someone who was just checking out OWS. Best to you.
I apologize. I actually started using that term yesterday as pre-emptive defense after people here kept accusing me of being a shill for the Tea Party. I'll stop, but of course that will just lead to more accusations because a lot of people here assume that anybody who isn't with them is against them.
'but of course that will just lead to more accusations because a lot of people here assume that anybody who isn't with them is against them.'
It's too bad many here can't simply have a dialogue about what really matters - opposing our common enemies!
I'm fairly sure that you won't appreciate my dialogue about the Tea Party: http://occupywallst.org/forum/vote-or-else-this-will-all-be-a-pointless-exercise/
I apologize in advance for the term "tea baggers" in what I wrote there. I wrote that last night before promising you tonight that I'll drop that divisive term.
Thanks for the link in any case - anything that can operationalize goals here makes sense to me.
There are people with views and there are people with extreme views. If you poise yourself far from the views that this organization represents then you will be considered to be a troll. We are only asking for some kind of support. 4 weeks old and we need support not criticism.
"If you poise yourself far from the views that this organization represents then you will be considered to be a troll."
What are those views? I don't think there's broad agreement on that from within OWS, nor that there should even be official views. Of course I've heard about $1 per person per campaign, and to hold the crony criminal capitalists accountable. I've heard some things about ending the FED.
What are those views, from which to distinguish 'trolls?' What happened to freedom of expression in all of this also? Anyhow...
I actually think TechJunkie is right on this. Young movements need focus, and blind support isn't the best thing for this movement. We can all throw around ideas that we support, but right now, we need to understand how to unify with one another and support a common thread of ideals. We also need to understand a legitimate way to turn that into political power, or else this movement will be illegitemized by society like all previous political movements that have existed outside party lines for the last thirty years.
As I understood, the basics of this movement were an opposition to: Excessive earnings of the upper 1 percent. Constant interest poured onto student loans. The ridiculous economic disparity caused by corporate fraud and abuse.
If this is true, we really gotta stick to these points, because as I read through this forum...we're waaaaay out of focus.
This movement has moved from wall street to every major city in the US because there is not a clear set of decisive plans. We are in the infancy. It's like when someone close to you dies. First you go through pain then anger then regret then blame and so on. Don't rush or force it. When we move into the next phase everyone will surely know. If you want some clearer ideas then the best way would be to actually go down to the event itself and start helping in organization.
Why would I support something if I don't know what it stands for? Why would I support a movement that itself doesn't know what it stands for?
I came here hoping to find a nascent movement that could congeal into substantial opposition to the Tea Party's disproportionate influence. But what I found is not that. It can't possibly ever be, if one of the only points of consensus among the protesters is that voting isn't useful. If this movement's goal isn't to effect change by participating in our democracy then it won't succeed in changing our government in any way.
You can't support it now and that's ok. It's not going anywhere. If you have half a brain and I know you do then you will eventually support it. Judging by your comments you seem pretty intelligent and you should just allow it time. A lot of these people on here are discussing issues for the first time in their life. The process will eventually lead itself to a coherent message and then eventually action.
I can dig it.
I don't know of any other forum like this and It's fucking incredibly exciting for me. Actually it's been kind of super addictive but i see this as history in the making. So many ideas and opinions- second after second - for the past 4 weeks. Maybe I should except the trolls as they are- makes for great conversation.
They're part of the process- just keep your cool and treat them as posters, even if their wording is strange, you can unravel their intentions and understand them, or get them to understand.
How long have you been on here?
Only two days. Tomorrow will be the first day I go down to any real protest. I wasn't even aware of the movement until the last couple days.
You in New York?
No, I'm in Sacramento- there's not a great deal going on here, but I'll still be going out.
I'm in LA. I've got to get off this site and go to demonstration downtown. Good luck man.
That's my old stomping grounds- good luck downtown.
Yes, there is definitely no focus. Something that I've been trying to point out, which apparently is an idea that's "far from the views that this organization represents" is that the legitimate way to turn a movement like this into political power is already well understood. You only have to look back as far as 2010 for an example. I did my best to explain it in this post: http://occupywallst.org/forum/vote-or-else-this-will-all-be-a-pointless-exercise/
Nonetheless, I'll give this to Toddjts- the Tea Party was a movement that was put together specifically by media conglomerates for a group of people that they targeted- giving it an artificial voice from the very beginning. What we're looking at currently is a grassroots organization of individuals who are lashing out against the misgivings of our political society. It could be helpful to allow some time for a voice to develop out of the mediation of many different views.
The problem is that the mediation of many different views appears to be producing two points of consensus:
On just about every other issue, there is nothing near consensus. For these two points to be the only thing that the protesters widely agree on is a problem, because the absolutist, us-versus-them sentiment in #1 is not going to be marketable to the mainstream. And #2 is self-defeatist. A political party with the position that voting is pointless will be doomed to obscurity. What do the protesters want to have accomplished, when they look back at all of this from the year 2014? The tea baggers were able to find points of consensus and then elect candidates to advance their agenda, and two years later they're scoring a lot of substantial legislative wins. If this movement can't translate its energy into voting, then two years from now this will all be remembered as a publicity stunt.
I agree with you on the second point- non-voting really can't be a premise of the movement, but I don't think that the first one is spot on. I think that there's a great deal of disagreement on that point as well- there's lots of people on the forums just like yourself who are pointing out that the problems being considered aren't necessarily solvable by just assuming that the problem is someone else's fault.
That's the thing that needs more time and definitely needs input by people like yourself, who are even raising the perception of this, like you are here.
Speaking of the tea party, I was interested in what our common goals really are. One thing we do have in common: our respective parties don't agree on a lot of things, even within the party. According to wikipedia, about 13% of tea partiers would vote for Palin, but about 30% are so-called independent. Tea partiers seem united on reducing the US's debt to other countries, and OWS seems united on reducing corporate ties with government. Both movements were started on the internet.
The key difference is that the tea baggers understood from the beginning that the goal was to elect candidates who would represent their concerns. The Occupy Wall Street movement is a long way from that revelation.
You are right, we need a representative. We want to be leaderless, but we need representatives if we're going to play politics instead of overthrowing the government.
I believe a leader will emerge, though. After we beat each other down enough with this "no leaders" stuff, consensus on every little decision, we will place a little trust in a representative, who is truly honest and transparent, not a politician. From what I understand, the tea party has a person to fill this respective role, and it's ron paul.
This is one of the most productive posts that I've read so far on this web site. People who think like this could win mainstream support and effect real change.
If your not a Libertarian or Ron Paul fanatic you are a troll. The OWS movement is nothing more then a political football to try and get the unelectable Ron Paul elected.
The only two possibilities are Ron Paul fanatic or troll?
its not political football, its the message of FREEDOM actually spreading, and people are starting to really like the sound of itttt
It is a political football. It's a Libertarian political football. Make a post about how a Resource based economy is a joke and you will get Paul bombed with links to loony out of work economists that believe robots should do all the work and pillage the world for resources. It's laughable. Lot's of people are beginning to see this for what it is.
FOCUS! This gathering is supposed to bring down the Wall $treet greed and corruption. Who cares whats under the bridge anyway?
Side note: Where the Wild Things Are- I preferred the book.
Yea but they really piss me off. They are so delusional. You know they are just middle class or lower and they don't have a clue. When I ask if they make a million dollars a year they reply NOT YET. And they think the economic climate will simply just go away and allow them the opportunities of the past. They have their head in the sand and are the precise ones who are standing in the way of real reform.
They're like typical schoolyard bullies- ignore them and they'll go away.
Your right. Thanks for letting me vent.
The issue here is not trolls, it's blatant ignorance of people who are acting as though they are oppressed and their life is ruined by someone higher up in the social/life chain.
9 times out 10 this is not the case, it's that persons OWN bad decisions.
TROLL!