Forum Post: Occupy Detroit
Posted 11 years ago on July 26, 2013, 11:28 a.m. EST by Phanya2011
(908)
from Tucson, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
How many of us are able to move to a new place -- not working, no reason to stay where you are? If enough people contribute, Occupy could probably buy up an entire neighborhood of distressed homes in Detroit -- some are listed as foreclosures under 5,000. This could be a chance to pool some funds and show what cooperation can do in one neighborhood, and ultimately, perhaps the whole city. Check out the listings on Zillow.
Has anyone used crowdfunding before? How about a project to raise the money needed for the people of Occupy to buy the assets that the city is selling off or some other means of renewing Detroit without turning it over to private companies
I don't see any private companies rushing in....
Indeed it has. The precipitous fall of the so-called “arsenal of democracy” has been stunning in both its scope and duration. In 1960, Detroit had the highest per-capita income in the nation. Now, in 2013, it is the nation’s poorest city, besieged by the inevitable dysfunction that attends such a dubious distinction. The current unemployment rate, which has tripled since 2000, remains double the national average. The murder rate has reached a 40-year high, making it home to the three most dangerous neighborhoods in America. More than 78,000 properties have been abandoned, and there are no buyers for houses on sale literally for a single dollar. The population has declined from 1.8 million in 1950, to 700,000 today—47 percent of whom are functionally illiterate.
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/56695
That is dreadful. Perhaps Detroit will become a poster child for a "sustainable city" per U.N. Agenda 21. As soon as enough of the residents kill each other, that is.
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How about this. Buy a house, convert it into a half greenhouse half dwelling. Rent it and pay the renter to operate the greenhouse.
Create a perception of increased property value.
Borrow against the new "asset" and use the money for a down payment on the next property.
Repeat.
Each renter should be a worker-owner of the corporation. Hey, bet you didn't see this coming... Subsidiary. Maybe the second Franchise Subsidiary. Call it PHoldings.
Profit comes from rent and, produce/products, and supply of system equipment/supplies/etc. which creates more employment.
What do we need? How can we acquire/produce everything in the supply chain?
Could this be profitable?
There should be plenty of empty ruins in Detroit to occupy. Go for it.
How about this: a two-fold non-profit organization called "Rebuild America One Neighborhood at a Time. John, as a member, contributes $10,000 to the non-profit, as do Jean and Mary and Ed. That is 40,000 that is not taxed. The organization in turn gives each contributor a tax-free gift from one of the other contributors of $10,000 -- which is also tax free. That is the part that cuts our income taxes by around $1000 each a year (at the lowest bracket). Other contributions would go toward buying up homes in a chosen Detroit neighborhood and help those who lost their homes to the banking bunch by providing housing in exchange only for improving the neighborhood and paying costs.
The other donations to the cause: if 1000 people contribute 100.00, that is enough to buy 10 homes or more in Detroit -- depending on the neighborhood. The non-profit would have to be totally transparent and structured in a way that everyone can see what is happening with the money at any time. We need to build trust as well. The rich got that way by using the laws in place that favor them. We need to pool our combined resources to do that same thing.
McDonald's exists to acquire real estate using the burger business.
Robert Kiyosaki acquires real estate by being in the rental business.
You should only buy real estate if you plan to make money with it. If it's not bringing money in, it is not in your asset column. Your dream property could be your biggest liability.
If we can create a system that works and looks solid to a banker, and acquiring property is a component of the system, property will naturally be acquired.
Someone must expect it to come back -- they approved a multi-million dollar stadium.
That's a hell of a coincidence because I was just checking Detroit homes for sale on Zillow last night. No lie. I was curious to see what they had as far as old Victorians but was having trouble with pages loading and only looked at the first page. After that I gave up and came back here.
But there's no reason to do what you suggest if there aren't jobs to be had. One site says Detroit's unemployment rate is 17.5% as of March of this year. And if that's the 'official' rate, then the actual rate is an easy five or ten points higher.
Did you see this ad -- if you like Victorians:
http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/reo/3939985707.html
I don't do much Craigslist, but that's a beautiful Queen Anne.
Now you're killing me girl, because that home's about a half-hour drive from a very dear friend of mine. Someone I'd like to see so we could catch up on "old times."
Time for a visit :)
Heheh, that's what I was thinking. Hell, I'd probably have to stay. ;-)
One never knows what might get started because of one little thread.
Sounds like the voice of experience, Phannya, heheheh
It can also unravel, of course. :)
Absolutely.
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No work now; there will be when they start building the stadium. Plus, if people live in the same neighborhood and have the nonprofit helping the process along, it could be done. You know ... renew it and they will come :)
Hmmm, that's a good question. How many jobs will be generated by the new stadium, I wonder? How many affiliated businesses, if any? It's something to think about.
No work??
The auto industry has been hiring again for a few months now, in spite of our teabagge(R) governors efforts to hold it off, so he can claim he did it..
He didn't.
Support industries are coming around too, as result.
Most people think that cars don't matter anymore, but their manufacture is still very much a bellweather of the economy in general.
The fledgeling movie industry, that he quashed, is still doing at least some major motion picture work, although because of the governor, much the ancillary work is still being done in Hollywood.
What is happening in Detroit was a planned attack, there should be no doubt.
Did you see they are still approving building a big stadium?
I didn't know that. What the hell? How can they afford to do that if they just filed for bankruptcy? This place is seeming more and more like Bizzaro World with each passing day.
That was the headline: "Bankrupt? WTF" or words to that effect
I Googled that before I went shopping and see it's true. That says a lot, doesn't it? The city's bankrupt but they can afford to build a stadium for rich sports stars. That only people in the counties of Detroit can afford to go to.
But then think too about the unemployABLE rate. That's even scarier to think about.
In a place like that, a huge chunk of the potential workforce is self-disqualifed by either being an unskilled drop out, having a criminal record, having kids they can't handle and leave for a job, being an addict, lacking the basic socialization required to function in a job, or not being able to speak standard English. Wowza, they have problems!
All those problems exist in every job market. There's also various forms of discrimination, although technically they're supposed to be against the law. Not only color, but age and 'look' discrimination. Age discrimination is so commonplace that even social services workers admit it's a big problem. And how you look makes a difference too. If you made the mistake of getting your face tatted like Mike Tyson one drunken night, your chances of employment just took a nosedive.
And they show in every job market, like East St. Louis. Thing is, Detroit specializes in that sort of dysfunction. Of course, if someone did a study like this it would be career death, but it would be interesting to see just what share of the "workforce" there really isn't employable. Then the depth of the social disaster would become clearer.
Seriously, I'd like to see that kind of study done nationwide. I imagine it would be an enlightening piece of work. I don't know enough about Detroit to single them out, but East St. Louis and it's environs is another good example. There are neighborhoods over there, like Washington Park, that literally look like war zones. In some of those places, the only thing keeping them alive are strip clubs and convenience/liquor stores.
AH I see you are a pedlar of BS propaganda - about the UN-educated - unskilled American.
Tell ya what .................. Go Fuck Yourself.
I'll do that and you can wait on Detroit. LOL.
Detroit is an epicenter of dysfunction. Truth hurts. Maybe if more had been willing to speak the truth earlier, things wouldn't have gotten so bad.
Sorry to disturb. You can put your head back in the sand now. LOL
Talking to yourself..............hmmmmmmmmm..............off your meds?
MANUFACTURED. Deliberately - MANUFACTURED
I know the tax avoidance scheme indicated below is too direct to be allowed under the non-profit laws; however, according to Stephen Colbert's attorney, you can put all of the money you collect into another tax exempt organization and not have to account for it at all, ever. Plus, if one does not have to disclose one's donors, how would the IRS know if money gifted to an individual was a "return" or not.
Haha, I had the exact same thought recently. I'd go with massive indoor farming projects with the latest technologies. I'd also try to attract anyone trying to develop new technologies/systems and partner with them. Vertical, aquaculture, anything to do with food production. I imagine this would employ many fields/disciplines and could be organized Wolff style.
Another idea was to level the whole thing and install a Venus Project city, but there are better places for that.
I heard a year or two ago that the median price for a house there was $7K.
Housing costs are very, very low. Cash is diminishing in value, whether anyone says so or not -- grocery bill is more every time, buying same things -- so if we could crowd fund a non-profit to rebuild Detroit one neighborhood at a time, it would be an example of cooperative growth and governance. I am too far away to look into it directly, but surely someone on this forum could figure out where to begin.
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Mic Check
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Yes...by all means ..occupy that cesspool of FAILED liberalism. You'll fit right in.
no jobs...no rent...no food...rampant crime...murders.....and of course..fucking BROKE!
In fact..may I suggest you wall yourselves in...and secede from the union.
You suppose living there might change their minds on gun control?
First you will need to thwart the drive towards libe(R)topia.
As Detroit officials discuss a “fire sale” of public assets and services to private interests in the wake of the city's $18 billion Chapter 9 bankruptcy last Thursday, some conservative politicians and business leaders may realize their dreams of “running government more like a business” after all.
Detroit became the largest metropolis to file for Chapter 9 bankruptcy in US history, and the city's troubles have been largely framed in the mainstream media in terms of high tax rates and pension shortfalls.
The city lost much of its manufacturing in an era of massive off shoring and suffered greatly from trade policies like NAFTA and corporate welfare policies in the form of subsidies and tax loopholes for corporations. Yet it is municipal retirees, with an average $19,000-a-year pension benefit, who find themselves shouldering a disproportionate amount of the blame.
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/17785-the-future-of-detroit-donald-cohen-warns-of-the-dangers-of-looming-privatization
Vultures -- worse, really; vultures don't create their own carrion.
The libe(R)tarians have been drooling since it was a gleam in a Koch brothers eye.
The offshoring thing falls far short of the true story, but I posted this to show the $19,000 pension benefit, before someone starts whining about how they're living high on the hog.
They've been storing pet coke on the river front, ever since their crony, Mulroun, lost his bid for a new international bridge over the Detroit River.
They're vindictive bastards too.
This just seems like an opportunity to defeat them with numbers, if we could get together and really so something. I was tempted to buy an rv and just go there and see what's what. Several of us all thought of it at the same time.
Fine idea. I'm sure we'd love to have you.
http://www.occupy-detroit.us/
If not? I'm also sure Kalamazoo will be the place to be in August.
"The city lost much of its manufacturing in an era of massive off shoring and suffered greatly from trade policies like NAFTA"
Here ya go, theres your beloved party teaming with the Republicans once again to shove it up your behind as usual:
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=103&session=1&vote=00395
At least Levin voted against this one. Too bad the rest of the party screwed you.
Party rules rule, the individual is useless in this monster.
If you don't know what Engler did and is still doing?
You don't know shit.
here's some comforting words from your friend at the NRA. http://samuel-warde.com/2013/07/the-real-ted-nugent-in-his-own-obscene-racist-words/
Engler did the same thing Levin did- sell your ass down the river for their own personal gain.
The NRA depends on people like you more than me. I could care less about em. I dont feed their enemies or their supporters.
How do you fix that?
No, he didn't.
You don't know,
Don't pretend you do.
I can't fix your bullshit for you.
You have to do that yourself.
Starting now, would actually be a bit late, so you should get started.
http://occupydemocrats.com/are-you-forced-to-work-sick-thank-rick-scott-alec-co/
The thread here, that you didn't comment on, is #2 on google.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/county-in-florida-tries-to-help-citizens-alec-post/
You should be ashamed to have ignored such a travesty against the working 99%.
HEre's his go ahead on slave labor in China:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1994/roll507.xml
He's not alone in all of this, they are ALL useless.
Repealing Glass Steagall one of your to-do lists, like it was Levin's?
How on earth do you defend these people?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6716539
He told Bernie to shove it when it came to not poisoning the general population too:
http://eatlocalgrown.com/article/11524-the-monsanto-71-senators-who-betrayed-constituents-in-favor-of-biotech-dollars.html
You can't handle this, its why you wont address it. Very stubborn of you. Keep them checks comin, right?
This has to do with the damage that Engler did to Michigan, and really the nation, in what way?
Besides disruption?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
Forum Post: Occupy Detroit
You brough up Engler to deflect from the fact that you support the maniac Ive listed, in your own state.
I dont support Engler or Levin. Only a fool would.
Engler.
That's where we were first.
Multiple posts in multiple threads as a matter of fact.
So you got anything yet?
Engler..
Not hard to spell, but difficult to research.
Consider it a google challenge.
Tell me what evil he did. Links and all.
"Detroit became the largest metropolis to file for Chapter 9 bankruptcy in US history, and the city's troubles have been largely framed in the mainstream media in terms of high tax rates and pension shortfalls.
The city lost much of its manufacturing in an era of massive off shoring and suffered greatly from trade policies like NAFTA and corporate welfare policies in the form of subsidies and tax loopholes for corporations. Yet it is municipal retirees, with an average $19,000-a-year pension benefit, who find themselves shouldering a disproportionate amount of the blame."
The people you elect helped ship our jobs out. Dont bitch about NAFTA and then elect those very people and then pretend they arent there.
So no, this isnt about Engler. Its about you and the slime you continue to put into positions of power election after election after election.
You are directly helping to destroy your own life. And everyone elses along with it. Stop supporting these people for crying out loud, what is wrong with you?!
That doesn't need any links because its just how it is in this mess of a country.
Engler..........it's not that hard. I was only kidding.
I never denied the part those agreements have played, so get off it.
There's no need to repeat it, and they hit the whole fucking world, not just one State
Here, I'll do a little leg work for you, since the Florida heat has gotten you a bit lazy, eh?
Engler and ALEC.
http://www.zoominfo.com/p/John-Engler/665090801
Note his employment history.
http://www.zoominfo.com/p/John-Engler/665090801
It does need links. Yes indeed, it does.
"There's no need to repeat it, and they hit the whole fucking world, not just one State"
And you still support them because?.........
Thats the million dollar answer.
"Engler did the same thing Levin did- sell your ass down the river for their own personal gain."
"No, he didn't. You don't know, Don't pretend you do."
You dont think the stuff that guy has passed could be considered selling your ass down the river.?!...
I would classify it as near criminal if not for the fact they have rigged the justice system too.
Engler.
C'mon..
Say it!!
Say out loud!!
Where did he intern and who employs him now??
Do you know who he is actively advising??
You can say it!!
I know you can.
He interned with some rich asshole, the same ones that Levin endorses through his votes.
Why dont you try not supporting either of them?
Is that too difficult for you? Does that thought make you want to go Zen and rip off heads?
He's bought and paid for by the same people that bought and paid for Levin. The underlying truth you cant accept?
Call it your pet names all you want, they all have D's and R's after their names.
Stop supporting corruption.
I'm just sad our government continues drone assassinations
so regularly that it isn't even news
ENGLER.
where did he intern?
All you have to do is actually look at the link.
Scared??
YUP. You are.
As for your other off topic comment?
Same to you.
The President, CNN and MSNBC, among others of their ilk, continue plugging away on Zimmerman-Martin promoting their twisted Hollywood-esque vision of an America where black men are gunned down by white men, and seeking to provoke a race war. Meanwhile, the leftist utopia of Detroit has called it quits in its decades-long flight from reality with liberal/socialist Democrats as pilots. It proved, yet again, the wisdom of the late great Maggie Thatcher who said, "The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."
Detroit most certainly has done that, it has even run out people. The population over past years has gone into a serious nosedive. Those who can flee have. The rest exist in a liberal hell in which overpaid public servants do less and less; public services have all but disappeared; the private sector has largely vanished; and the criminal, the insane, and the drug addled rule the streets and generate 386 murders in 2012 for a staggering homicide rate of nearly 55 per 100,000 residents, much worse than most African countries. By contrast, I would note, ethnically diverse El Paso, in "gun crazy" Texas, and across the border from murder capital Ciudad Juarez, with a population about that of Detroit's had five, yes five--as in the fingers of one hand--murders last year for a homicide rate of about 0.6 --lower than Canada, lower than the UK, lower than nearly every European country.
The morally bankrupt Democratic Party corruptocrats who ran Detroit for the past half century or so finally killed the goose that laid the golden eggs. They stole, squandered, and mismanaged "other people's money" until there was no more. They played racial politics and drove the white working middle class out of town; they taxed and regulated and pushed industry and commerce out; and now they have left nothing but a shattered shell of what was once a great American city. Where is that famous Obama "outrage"? I guess the zombies now wandering the ruins of Detroit do not look like the son Obama might have had, or are there some talking points being developed which will blame it all on a movie? Robocop, perhaps? On gun owners? On George Bush? On Mitt Romney? On, on, on, well, on whomever walks into the Obama administration's crosshairs that day? Al "Tawana Brawley" Sharpton and Jesse "Never Had a Job in My Life" Jackson are too busy spouting nonsense about Florida and getting Eric "Fast and Furious" Holder to persecute George Zimmerman to care that Detroit has died.
Now the mess created by decades of liberal race baiting, corruption, and just idiocy falls in the lap of the Republicans who govern Michigan. This is also a typical socialist stunt we have seen throughout the world, not just in American politics. When, for example, the Spanish right won the recent elections they discovered upon taking office that their socialist predecessors had cleaned out the treasury. In Venezuela, the hideous Maduro who has taken over from the also hideous and now late Chavez is discovering that the money is gone; Venezuela, one of the world's biggest oil producers, can't afford toilet paper. I am sure that whomever takes over from Obama will "discover" that we, too, are broke, left with bills we cannot pay, and mandates we cannot honor.
So, is there hope for Detroit? I don't know. Can the city be "turned around"? I don't know. Will the bankruptcy provide a floor, as the optimists claim, on which to build a future? Perhaps. I hope so, but I don't know, and doubt that anybody else knows. Should the city be saved as a separate entity? Perhaps not. Perhaps it should be governed from somewhere else: Canada, are you interested? Think of it as our compensation for taking Justin Bieber off your hands. I am sure the taxpayers of Windsor would be delighted to annex Detroit; think of it as a West Berlin taking over East Berlin form of charity . . .
Detroit is liberalism's showcase. We should never let anybody forget that.
http://thediplomad.blogspot.com/
You don't know shit about what happened here.
WTF does the Beib have to do with anything at all?
Gov. Engler sealed Detroit's fate in the 90s.
That get's skipped over in every account so far.
But your simplistic appraisal is the lamest of all, being peppered with bullshit.
Are you a TV addict? Or just a rabid Limbaugh fan?
Former Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick was found guilty of multiple counts of racketeering and extortion, a jury decided Monday. Kilpatrick was convicted of 24 charges, including racketeering, extortion, attempted extortion, bribery, mail fraud, wire fraud and filing false tax returns. Both Kilpatrick and contractor Bobby Ferguson were found guilty on most counts. Kilpatrick's 71-year-old father, Bernard Kilpatrick, was only found guilty of one tax count.
They’ve also targeted $84 million in contracts given to Kilpatrick’s friend Bobby Ferguson. Detroit businessman Tony Soave and other businesspeople with city work say they were forced to hire Ferguson as a subcontractor if they wanted to win city deals. In court, Soave told jurors that Kilpatrick racked up $389,000 in travel on his private plane.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/11/kwame-kilpatrick-guilty-detroit-trial_n_2784873.html
He's in jail too, isn't he?
Not so the crooks on Wallstreet.
Not Engler either.
Engler went on to become some kind of manager of domestic manufacturing in the Bush administration and oversaw the removal of millions and millions of good jobs from the economy. Helping to assure the coming crash, and the fate of Detroit, no matter who might be Mayor..
Now he spends his days "advising" Gov. Snyder, in his application of tyranny.......
The failure to even bring to trial the wall st crooks, let alone convict lies squarely on the Obama DOJ's shoulders.
Most of the laws that would have allowed for that were negated during the previous administration..........
Try and pay more attention.
Now, can you please stay on topic?
I thought Lenny Breuer/Holder just declared the banks too big to jail, never heard that there weren't any laws to prosecute them on??? Shoes, you just make stuff up as you go, don't you?
Look!
Up there!!
A thread title!!
Do you know what that is?
Did you even read what this one is about?
Couldn't read it because your knee was jerking so hard at the word Detroit, that you couldn't focus?
I fear it is so.
This thread about purchasing land in Detroit.
So how much are you in for?
Or do you disdain it, because the idea was first put forth by Farrakhan?
Do you know who that is without google?
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Always somebody elses fault, eh? Has the Organizer-in-Chief done anything to lay claim to? ANyway.. Wall St invested heavily in his 08 election. Am sure that didn't buy anyone immunity? Wall Street is investing heavily in Barack Obama.
Although the Democratic presidential hopeful has vowed to raise capital gains and corporate taxes, financial industry bigs have contributed almost twice as much to Obama as to GOP rival John McCain, a Daily News analysis of campaign records shows. For both candidates, Wall Street's investment and banking sectors have become among their portliest cash cows, contributing $9.5 million to Obama and $5.3 million to McCain so far.
It's a haul that is already raising concerns that, as the nation's faltering economy has become issue No. 1, the two candidates may have a hard time playing tough on issues like market regulation or corporate-tax loopholes.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/barack-obama-collected-money-john-mccain-article-1.351304#ixzz2aHQIUT23
WTF does this have to do with the subject at hand??
Nothing.
Wanna talk about record obstruction?
Then start the tread, I'll join in.
As it is you're all over the map. From the Bieb, to McCain to some guy in Venezuela.
Have you been watching FLAKESnews?
Because that would explain a lot.
What it wouldn't explain is your lack of knowledge of events in South East Michigan, and Detroit in particular, while you pretend to possess such knowledge..
You don't.
Shoes, you are so transparent and hypocritical it's a hoot. Like you don't drag threads off on tangents. You just don't like my tangent...that the PeacePrizePrez has refused to prosecute wall st. Bush changed the laws....hardee harr harr harr. Is there ANYTHING that has happened during the Divider-in-Chief's reign that IS NOT Bush's fault? YAwn.
I'm sorry, but the place was divided by FLAKESnews and Limbaugh long ago.
Racism divides it today. Racism admitted by some members of the GOP, under oath.
You're so far away from the thread title that it's just silly at this point, all the while you're adding more bullshit, than a cattle ranch..
And you just cannot bring yourself to discuss why the Wall St bankers are still walking free and collecting bonuses!
Yes, yes I did.
You just missed it, and went about babbling about Bush.
So, how much of Detroit are you in for buying?.
Detroit? Oh hell no. If I wanted to throw my money away I'd go to Vegas. At least in Vedas I have some chance of winning. The hard truth is Detroit would be more valuable if it was plowed under for farm land.
No. No it wouldn't.
The corporate abandonment has left it with more superfund sites than any other metro area.
Then you have the Koch brothers dumping their bitumin refuse on the river bank.
Oh yeah!!!
the EM won't stay in the long ago paid for mayors mansion.
He staying in a penthouse suite in the most expensive hotel in town.
Free room service anyone?
Paid for by the tax payers, thanks to that lovable (by the Kochs) tyrant, Snyder.
Somehow, not so strangely, no one knows what actually happened here, and fewer still, know what's actually happening now.
How much of Detroit am I in for buying???? You HAVE TO BE kidding!!!! You couldn't pay me enough to do more than cruise by on 94..or is that 69? I will, however, pledge 1000 rounds of 9mm to anyone crazy enough to try and set up an occupy commune there....138 square miles, 1/2 empty...you young brave folks could sneak in and no one would notice for quite a while.
http://www.occupy-detroit.us/
You can keep the silly bullets, send the cash equivalent.
See you on the avenue, instead of the Eway?
Mayor Coleman Young, perhaps the most corrupt mayor in America , outside of Richard Daley in Chicago , rode Detroit down to its knees... He set the benchmark for cronyism, incompetence, and arrogance. As a black man, he said, "I am the MFIC." The IC meant "in charge." You can figure out the rest.
Detroit plummeted from 1.8 million citizens to 912,000 today. At the same time, legal and illegal immigrants converged on the city for the free government handouts, so much so, that Muslims number over 300,000. Mexicans number 400,000 throughout Michigan, but most work in Detroit . As the whites moved out, the Muslims moved in.
You can read the entire musings of a former Detroiter here: http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty873.htm
A lot of racists went running for the burbs in those years.
I don't see that mentioned though.
Except the guy falls just short of screaming that he's a racist.
Not a word about Engler and his damaging policies either.
Not a word about the pollution left behind by corporations either.
Shallow..........narrow........and mostly racist bullshit.
Nice site though with crap about the NRA and agenda 21.
Loony tunes.