Forum Post: Obeying an immoral law is to bend a knee to tyranny.
Posted 11 years ago on March 23, 2013, 7:34 a.m. EST by factsrfun
(8342)
from Phoenix, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Laws like SB 1070, DOMA and those prohibiting cannabis are as immoral as the Jim Crow laws of the old south. People have minds of their own as well as a moral compass. I know looking around the world it might be hard to believe, but never the less people almost always know the right thing to do, sometimes they just don’t do it. The main exception to this is the 4% or so that are sociopaths, unfortunately they do seem to hold a disproportional amount of power. Most people though do not have this problem. In many cases religion serves to distort that moral compass and we end up with crap like DOMA. These laws designed to oppose the natural tendency of humans; cannabis is a better recreational intoxicant than alcohol, adults should be allowed to build a life with whomever they choose, people just trying to live their lives are not responsible for what happen when they were two. Common sense understanding yields to the will of tyrants but common morality guilds true democracy. Do our laws reflect our collective moral compass or do they reflect the will of the office holder? Here in AZ we passed medical cannabis in 2010 yet our elected officials have spent two years imposing their will over that of the voters. When imposing SB 1070 on Arizonans they espouse the opposite views they do for medical cannabis removing any thought of a principled position, other than the principle that their will should rule.
I suggest we demand Moral Laws from Washington.
This is not good news. People get third jobs or second jobs faster than getting new jobs or career jobs????
http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/episode-418-208/
20 minutes in the guest, Steve Keen, talks about Ponzi capitalism.
21:50 minutes in we see the topic is Ponzi capitalism.
There was a post here about RT being removed from the free service of Time Warner Cable. At the time I thought it might be suppression. Now... I have the 5 PM RT half hour show removed from my public television channel. But that is not all. Today, we see the rebroadcast of Coast 2 Coast AM Eliminated.. on AM Radio for news broadcasts at 5 AM ... instead of the first hour of C2C repeated at 5 AM.
Seems we are seeing a Suppression of Free Speech today under President Obama.
How exactly is Obama connected to these events?
Funny you don't remember the Pheonix Program in Vietnam. There is little difference today with our Patriotic Drone strikes in Pakistan.
I'm not a Paki. But I understand the dehumanization of people in North Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran. We have to torch these people cause they are not human, right. You are an Asshole, factsrfun. You justify the killing by Drones.
I wont attend your funeral and I won't pray for you when you die.
You think the US should subdue people around the world and damn the consequences of Drone Strikes and convert influence of their governments through the IMF, WTO, and economic support.
Congrats. You are a Republican by thought.
OK so now drone strikes and Coast2Coast broadcasting has some connection which you still haven't reveled.
Look if you want to just dump on Obama that's fine I just have bigger fish to fry so to speak.
One thing I would like to know though is why do you Obama made it rain here yesterday?
Well President Barak Obama is Right wing and keeps protecting the Banks, has given waivers to TBTF Fraud, is packing the Administration with Bankers and Insiders that Protect the Banks, I don't really think I am hard on him. All Public Executives and Private Corporate Executives are skating on real responsibility that should be going to the top.
This country has huge Ethic Problems, Business Ethic Problems, Regulatory Ethic Problems, Banking Ethics Problems, and Political ethics Problems.....
and your viable alternative would be?
More Transparency of how they spend money, more FOIA authorities, End 90% of US Secrecy to prevent empire building in DHS, CIA, NSA, State Department, International Security Agency, DOD, .... Force TBTF Banks to GAAP Accounting Rules to force them to have 99% of transactions on balance sheet so we can see what assets and liabilities they have.... End 99% of Private Banking and force them on GAAP Accounting Rules with Transparency under public banking rules....
Get money out of Politics, Get bankers out of Government, end the revolving door of Banking executives getting in bed with public officials and working in Government as Revolving door and incestuous relationships... End Corporate Lobbying. End foreign Lobbying of our Congress. Basically we have RICO Violations in that money has influence over our regulators and Regulations through our Legislators that pass laws. Some call this a Duopoly, corporations and Government running the country. It is crony capitalism.
Too many other ideas to write out.
Good ideals maybe too many to go through right now, but none of them could really be President. You seem to have a problem with Obama as President I was asking if you had an alternative.
Well, I felt you were pushing it on me that I didn't like Obama. But I voted for him once and he turned out to be a typical politician and a Right winger. I don't really have a problem with His First Presidential Promises or his first Presidential Platform. But ... aside from his forgetting all of his people after elected, putting bankers and conservatives in his cabinet, and taking all cost controls out of his Health Care Act and giving Big Pharmacy a Total Free Pass.... And of course he escalated and continued all the Right Wing War and Terror Policies and the Police State..... And of course he has used his Law Degree to take a way US Rights and Commit Crimes against Humanity.
But I have to admit he took office with the Biggest Crooks in history in the Senate and House... He took over from Bush a mess 3 times bigger than Bush Got when Bush was first Elected.
Like I said who is a viable alternative i have no desire to see a Republican in the WH, so given the real world I work within the Democrat primaries trying to get the best i can, and no Obama was not the person i supported in the primaries, I researched his voting record and he was too friendly with bankers for my taste, turns out I think i was right about that. I wanted Hilary I figured she was already pissed off and that's a good place to start with the GOP.
I suggest 1 or 2 year recess for congress due to incompetence. The President can run the country by himself for a while and earn his salary. No Money contributions. No money Lobbies. No Gifts to federal politicians.
Congressmen and women should learn shame by being sent home from Washington DC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD3xfT0c99g
careful there, I like to be, but I know it's not a good ideal really
Yes, the President would find he made a lot of enemies when congress came back. Therefore, the US President could face, censor, impeachment, and possibly crimes for ignoring the US Constitution and violating Human Rights.
A congress that comes back from Recess after 2 years would be shamed and feeling guilty. They might very well be feeling out of control and angry for not having served their lobbyist and for abusing the system they way it was from 2001 - 2013.
Sure, could be all congressmen are on the take (expect for 10-20 maybe) ... so maybe in Washington DC, the President and the GOP & Dems are all on the same side. Maybe congress would not go after a president that abused his power. But a 1-2 year recess would change the dynamic and put pressure on congress.
But yeah. Bush & Obama could face war crimes trials if we lived in a different world.
After all Economic Sanctions, Oil Embargo, Trade embargo for 50 years like against Cube - these are acts of War. And the US has been violating sovereignty in foreign countries for over 120 years. Assassinations across border in Pakistan - that is a crime. CIA Regime change actions in foreign countries - that is a crime.
All I want is sanity restored to Washington DC. Some of your ideas, some of OWS ideas, and some of my ideas. TBTF has to be broken up and money has to be out of politics.
Oh, dear god, I love you.
I'm guessing this is where my nerd problem comes in. I really don't know how to respond or act. I haven't had relationships for over 20 years. Thanks for your positive remarks.
never to late ;)
Social interactions have been greatly affected by the adaptation of smartphones but I don't think railing against them will have much affect. Drones are probably here to stay too, best I can hope for is that another Bush don't gain control of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD3xfT0c99g
Yes, the trend lines on privacy and personal rights are going in the wrong direction. The power of the Executive Office is going in the wrong directions since congress no longer recognized it's constitutional War Powers or budget Powers ... and Congress is one of the key watchdogs of our Agencies and Regulators.
The Trend is the US never learns from it's wars and aggressive foreign policy. The US Doesn't mind spending billions or Trillions on Wars. Even now the US won't recognize it's failure in Iraq and Afghanistan... but the Defense Contractors and Defense Lobbyist are very happy. In effect Bush and Obama are Transferring over $300 Billion a year in taxes to contractors as a result of this Decade of War.
I'd be somewhat caution speaking of Congress use of its budget powers, remember the only reason Gitmo is still open is Congress used its budget power to stop Obama from closing it.
In general the US never learns from anything, I blame the media really, has any Republican been asked about what happens if we do balance the budget, does that mean we slash taxes again like we did in 2001, memory problems are killing us.
Those are good points. Seems we always get more problems when GOP takes over House or Senate and passing something.
I really feel there was a Coup take over of the Media, Chris Hedges has short interview making this point.
http://rt.com/op-edge/chris-hedges-corporate-media-896/
If we want to Reduce Global Warming - Stop going to war.
If we want to Reduce Carbon Emissions - Stop going to war.
If we want to cut the Federal Budget - Stop going to war.
If we want to reduce the Total Federal Account Deficit - Stop going to war.
If we need to find money to stop the Sequester - Stop going to war, stop sending Troops overseas, Cut DOD by $100 Billion, and stop giving Foreign Aid to Dictators....
Seems like lots of simple options if we can leave the GOP out of the Negotiations. Oh, but all of congress takes money from Defense Contractors now, so ... maybe we have to get money out of congress first.
Public Funding for Public Elections.
Yes, I have written about that. I call it Nationalized Cable, TV, and radio for all levels of Politicians. Like 15 minutes per station to force a platform to be described. I like the requirement of Quarterly Reports from elected Officials, and 3 Point papers per elected official per year to describe positions and report some research to the people. So in a national election for House, 15 minutes per station per 3 weeks or 4 weeks then additional air time for free. I figure they can be on many stations in the same weeks.
I'm not sure how it works but I hear that Germany doesn't allow any political ads, but they have debates instead, I guess at all levels, I think that would have merit too, i try not to get too detailed in planning here, it seems a bit premature.
I might enjoy that if the debate agenda was chosen democratically, and if the moderator was truly independent. Thanks for the info. I might have to try to look into that a little.
Really? This is the sort of discussion you want to encourage? I post about immoral laws this guy jumps in with some cryptic slam on Obama and you say Great Job?
Well I almost want to talk about a myth about US Presidents. Once a upon a time ... there was a boy named George. George had a life that was sort of protected from authority and he really didn't have to learn about plays, musicals, and humanities..... Life was good.
Really George was a good guy but he always ended up in positions where he could not respond to workers or others questions. Well this wasn't a problem since he was an big manager or executive.
President Obama ... as the ruler ... has continued the practice of censoring NPR Radio ... and it is getting worse. There is no question of the fact that Reporters on NPR don't ask the hard questions any more.
The fact is the callers on telephones ask harder questions of our corporate or government representatives ... than our NPR Reporters.
As you know much of the money that supports our Educational Institutions like universities is crucial for stability. In this case .... Radio and TV need the dollars of the Federal Government to continue and to be the voice that they are.
I read what you wrote but I still don't see the connection, seems you might be more interested in slamming Obama than increasing the flow of communication, but that's your right I guess.
Well perhaps you support a killer or a dictator. Doesn't matter, most of the USA does. That is what makes you a Right Wing Fascist.
I don't say that lightly. I am not known to say things off the top of my head. The fact is that Obama is a Right Wing-War monger. Many people have seen this in this Forum and have left as a result. It is devastating to a hard core democratic supporter ... to realize that their president is kind of killer.
I'm not sure why you pretend not to know this as you have been here in this forum longer than I have.
It is not about democrat or republican. Today you have a mix. Joe Bidden is with Barak Obama the 1st, ... they mix with John McCain, Lindsey Graham, John Boehner, Nancy Pelosie, Reid, ... but they don't work on world peace or ... the highest goals.
Washington is not about solving anything or fixing anything. Washington is only politics. you know this.
And you know that democrats are useless.
So, I don't know what you are asking in your 32 word response to me.
I suspect you are very political and you only care about outcomes. You seem like a political operative for Barak Obama (even if you are not smart enough to know it). You are still a small person even after 1 year in the OWS forum and your hard work.
The fact is that US Politics are controlled and you are part of the problem.
I understand your main purpose posting here is to hate Obama, i post because I think wealth inequality is a huge problem, to each their own.
I've been here a year, you never read one of my articles.? Asshole.
So now I'm an asshole? Like I made you come here and say stupid shit, you want another chance to connect Obama to this Time Warner crap?
You are out in front of me about time Warner ... not sure what I am missing here. But I have written a lot of stuff for like a year now. How is it you don't know shit?
Click on my profile and read some of my stuff. I know I'm not an expert on economics, Social Program, or being a humanitarian.
But I do have some expertise. And I will learn your ass.
Do you read your own comments?
2 points by Middleaged (3692) 22 hours ago There was a post here about RT being removed from the free service of Time Warner Cable. At the time I thought it might be suppression. Now... I have the 5 PM RT half hour show removed from my public television channel. But that is not all. Today, we see the rebroadcast of Coast 2 Coast AM Eliminated.. on AM Radio for news broadcasts at 5 AM ... instead of the first hour of C2C repeated at 5 AM. Seems we are seeing a Suppression of Free Speech today under President Obama.
Here's story about how the private prison system in AZ is costing the taxpayers more than state ran prisons.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/06/641971/private-prisons-cost-arizona-35-million-more-per-year-than-state-run-prisons/
If you question the morality of SB 1070 you should watch this:
http://www.upworthy.com/can-you-imagine-going-through-something-like-this-when-you-were-in-high-school
Work within the system, get consensus, have the laws changed.
I did not mean to suggest people break the law, though I can see how you could read it that way, I am more suggesting that there really are two Laws, just as their two Americas, some laws make sense to all or at least most of us, theft, murder assault of all types even speeding but others make no sense to most, some of those like sitting at the back of the buss have been changed but others still remain.
We need awareness of natural law and how our constitution uses it to run with this concept. When the OP says "immoral law" what is really indicated is an unconstitutional law.
"OP"? damn must be talking to a vet, you do know that I am the "op" right? did you mean "ruin" instead of "run"? not sure you're meaning, but if you're interested my desire here is to begin the work to distinguish "moral law" from "biblical law". I have often heard people claim that our laws are based on the bible because murder is illegal and the bible says thou shall not kill, I know it's sounds crazy when I write it down, but people do say that. Then they go on to use that to justify hating gays. Anyway I understand it wasn't all on the paper so to speak, wasn't meant to be.
To run with the concept of "judging laws" we must remain with the constitution to make legally valid judgements. "Moral" and "bible" do not have legal meaning on their own.
As citizens it is our responsibility to judge laws and decide on how we feel about them every few years in the voting booth. This of course is not the only judging of laws that goes on, the courts do this as well, in the case of civil rights the courts have led the way in most cases. When we speak of the Constitution being a living document, (as evidenced in the original intent via the amendment process), we are speaking of our collective moral compass, it is that compass that led to interracial marriage and over the long haul will address these other issues as well.
I like the spirit of your post. We don't really get an opportunity to judge the laws when we vote. The courts can interpret the constitution, so can congress.
IF we were to simply realize constitutional intent, then we would legally be the ONLY group that can define constitutional intent and it is our FIRST right to alter or abolish abusive government..
I believe the DOMA will go by the wayside eventually. But things change at a pace, and just because it isn't happening at the pace one might want is no reason to disobey it.
What laws make no sense to more than say 60% of the people?
Pretty much all three of the ones I mention here and I suspect more if we took a look, some laws are supported as the Jim Crow laws were in the south, yet even those who supported the law did not hold it to be "moral" so much as necessary; an argument we often hear regarding cannabis today.
Cannabis laws have that " I am protecting people from themselves" ring to them. I am conservative, if you want to smoke pot, be my guest, but i aint losing sleep whether pot is banned or made to be like chewing gum, accessible to all. Not a big enough issue to get excited about.
I understand what you're saying only a few hundred thousand in jail because of pot, but their are tens of millions that are affected by drug testing and other problems brought on by it's being illegal. You're attitude is not at all unlike that of whites in the south in the 50's, sure laws that say some have to sit at the back of bus may be wrong, but it's not that big a deal.
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Teh key word in there is "Demand". We really dont demand too much at all. And when its time to give out grades (votes) we give them an A (90% re-election rate).
People are so afraid to take a stand, even here few recognize the danger that is the GOP. A few weeks ago OWS organized a protest against the House action to water down the violence against women act, yet that was being done by the Republican leadership the unwillingness to identified people within the system that are working against America's interest has hampered OWS greatly.
For every example of a Republican screwing the people, theres an example of a Democrat screwing one. They just do it from a different angle, and each one's base media doesnt address the relationship.
No one in occupy is ignoring the Republicans. They are included in "fuck the system".... trying to keep this from turning into DailyKos doesnt mean its ignoring something. It means people are trying to maintain a balanced approach of unity against the entire system, not just certain arms of it.
People are frustrated and the majority dont want to be associated with either party. So we give them what they want. Direct democracy in action.
I know they’re all the same, all is lost, all is lost, same old Green Party bullshit lie the worst and most political of lies.
Fortunately as OWS wanders into third party disasterland their numbers reflect that move, did you catch Nader’s show on MSNBC, no? me neither. While others take up the mission:
A Place at the Table
Hunger in America
Ample Harvest
Is it possible that we need a system outside of the normal political system to sustain laws that have already been established and are supported ... such as the antipollution laws, EPA laws, but also the freedom of farming that allowed farming of hemp and herbs and selling of raw milk, and selling of yogurt????
If you think about our system:
1) Revolving door to industry, our regulators are recruited to Industry to make bigger wages, get bonuses, and to enter the network of jobs as an executive.
2) Regulation Capture, corporate control over our regulators like the EPA, SEC, FDA, USDA, and Congress of course...
So to restate the proposal ... perhaps we need a forth leg of Federal Government that would be more steady and stable. A Regulatory arm of government that would prevent or be set up to prevent Annual Legislation that changes thing like the law that regulates herbs, regulates plants used in cooking, law that prevents polluting water sources, ...laws that prevent safety violations in oil drilling, .... laws that protect the USA from foods imported without proper analysis and inspection.
Obviously we have been raped in Financial Regulations (pardon the expression)
So how do we preserve or vote to preserve Safety Laws, Financial Laws, and Lobbying Laws at the Federal Government Level ... while preserving free use of herbs, growing of herbs, support of natural or organic farms or ranches...
Not sure what you are suggesting but for the record I oppose a Constitutional Convention.
I support the destruction of the Republican Party I believe it is possible, and I believe it is the only way to actually affect "the two party system" by knocking out one of it's supporting members.
The major benefit of this approach is that it avoids things like the Bush administration and instead allows for marginal improvement while the GOP slowly dies. I feel that opposition to this approach is based mostly in ego, as was the Nader Presidential run of 2000.
I approve your message. I don't see a gradual eating away of the GOP... but what ever it takes to kill the GOP is Justified and Necessary. The GOP is the ultimate illusion for people that support it.
The GOP represents bupkis. There is no reason to vote for the GOP. The GOP spend on defense, aggression, assassination, the Phoenix program, Rendition, Torture, Waterboarding, Indefinite detention, ... no lawyer for non-GOP, No Trial by Jury for non-GOP, No Jury for any crime you are prosecuted for, ... The GOP and now the Democratic party take your Rights to be ... anything ... you must conform. You must conform. You must conform. No, stop, you must conform... Now stop, you must conform...
There is no question. We must now conform. Thanks for you post....
The exit polls showed that 54% of VA voters thought that wealth inequality was a major problem, the GOP exist only to represent the interest of the rich, if OWS would put froth it's own message of wealth inequality (that's the message that brought me here) and connect that to GOP policies and do so with no mercy we could wipe them out in a few cycles, to the point that the Bernie Sanders would start popping up more and more, we got King in the last round, this is how we do it in the real world.
Hope that other "fight" we're having don't last too long.
Sounds like a valid approach - grassroots, populist movement against the people that are on the take from wealthy Interests. Bernie is probably only one of 6 congressmen that work for the people and seem to put of Truth.
There may be a few more, a central problem is the voting class and the contributor class and the two groups have different concerns, I like almost anybody who goes on record supporting public funding.
Well the war is over in Iraq, and the Afghanistan War should be Terminated. We can take $200 Billion from DOD today and fix SS and fund our safety net programs and even fund Infrastructure like Bridges and Highways... Make deeper cuts and you can fund new Alernative Energy Projects at a Plant Level. Bring troops home from Germany, Italy, Spain, Nederland Facilities, UK, South Korea, Japan, ... lease bases, air bases, and naval ports in strategic locations but keep them at mothball or minimal staffing ... sailors and airmen and soldiers restationed in the States would stimulate the US Economy instead of spending money overseas... would also require new construction of bases in the USA which further stimulates the economy.
fix SS? don't buy their lies, I know you don't just saying....If you've seen my profile you know I support Remove the Cap and Apply to All for SS tax, or First dollar to last all forms of income.
Yes, lift the cap and apply to all income earners.
The only reason Social Security has a problem is that none of our economic growth is being given out as wages. I wish someone would look at where the trust fund would be if economic growth was evenly spread across all income brackets, people talk about these things as if they were separate but they are not, they are related.
Good points. Usually CBO has some of these information comparisions. The IRS also does some analysis and pie charts, but I haven't seen them in like 4-5 years. I can't find those good ones I remember. But they weren't for SS.
This year they say our Revenues from Taxes and Payroll are up unless I am missing a detail. But yeah, payroll deductions come from wage earners. I guess there are investors, owners of businesses with income that don't pay the same way. I would guess business owners pay their own payroll deductions quarterly if they apply.
late add: Yes, GDP Growth from Lobbying or Financial Managers is not helpful to economy.
I'm waiting on the outcome of a class action taken out against those Americans who have offshored 42 trillion dollars of US currency, and have no intention of bringing it back into the country.
I love how you old party hacks think that saying screw the system means "ALL IS LOST"... Shows how desperate you are to cling to something that never existed.
I bet you gobbled Clinton's "service economy" and Bush's "ownership society" up like a guppie.
Really? Like we've never had this discussion, just thought I'd jump to the endpoint, OK go ahead lay out your plan