Forum Post: Not wasting the movement
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 4, 2011, 8:55 a.m. EST by Nightfalcon
(11)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
This movement has a chance to be something special and should not be wasted by everyone's hard work at this. This system cannot simply be fixed. It needs to be removed and we need a new resource based economy that can actually face the coming problems of resource shortages. Capitalism and any other modern forms of economy has failed and always will. We are at the transition where we move the world away from a monetary system completely and we use a resource based economy. If you need more info go to The Venus Project or watch Zeitgeist Moving Forward. Thank you very much for reading.
It's a wonderful dream but real families and individuals on the ground are hurting right now. If you take this "the ultimate dream or nothing" approach, you'll let Wall Street and big corporations off the hook and the pain, suffering and environmental destruction will continue. If instead we gather around a set of achievable demands and take non-violent action when those demands are not met, we will get a win. Then we can move on to another set of demands. That's how this works...movements stack up wins. And momentum builds. Now you may say this list is too narrow but just look at it. It may in fact be just the right amount of narrow to actually achieve something more than just typing on a blog. This or something like it could help grow support exponentially because it's a positive list of what we're for https://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
but if everyone stopped using money and saw it for what it is a lot of the people that are hurting could easily be helped. the only reason they aren't helped now is because they are have no money an most people have bought into this system of money = something. we can easily help each other overcome these problems. i agree that small battles can change things for the better. but your solution doesn't get rid of any of the people at the top and they will continue with what they have been doing.
Are you suggesting we return to a bartering economy? There are some major problems with that proposition.
Having a currency helps ease transactions; otherwise, there may be something you need but you don't have anything of equal value to trade for it. You would be forced to give up something of greater value to obtain that item. That could be problematic. The way a government would collect revenue also seems confusing to me in that scenario.
There wouldn't essentially be a government. It is not a barter system. it simply allocated resources evenly and everyone gets the same amount they need.
Yes! Exactly! I was combing through this site all last night and I'm not sure why this is the first time I saw that link. This should be in front of everyone's eyes, especially those downtown that might be disconnected...
With regards to the computer automation in The Venus Project, who would design the algorithms, and who would ensure the machines are not tampered with?
Also, that system would not work to eliminate corruption, crime and war. In fact, unless a totalitarian police state is advocated, I would predict those three negative aspects of current society to get worse. Just because the computer makes a decision, that doesn't mean there will not be a black market / underground economy, and it doesn't mean people will stop trying to steal and take from others. Enforcement would become and issue.
Finally, the idea that a computer will always make the best choice is a arrogant overestimation of our technological capabilities. Computing power is impressive, but the problem of solving economics for 6 billion people is far greater in my estimation.
a computer would figure it out better than any of us could. and why would stealing occur if we each had the same things? and nobody said this system would be perfect. but i sincerely believe that it is far better than what we have now. and most crime and war occurs between people that have something the other wants. if we all have the same things and access to the same things why would you take something from someone that you already have?
A computer may be able to figure things out better than any particular person, but that doesn't mean they are all knowing and infallible. They can still make mistakes. But that misses a more important point. The computer, unless it is a bonafided artificial intelligence (which would raise a host of other issues), would only be as good as the people that programmed it. It is also unlikely that it would be able to last for very long and still be successful without human intervention and tweaking. After all, technology changes, situations change, in ways that cannot be anticipated well enough to have a computer make decisions indefinitely. Therefore you will end up back where you started, relying on people to improvise.
I wouldn't underestimate the innate desire people have to have more than others. You should remember that people sometimes make irrational decisions based on emotion, fear, and greed. After all, it is simply naive to assume that since the system is different, everybody in the current system that exploits, cheats, lies and steals will play nice. Some people already have more than others but yet they still endeavor to gain more. There are several reasons for this, but IMHO it will be difficult to eradicate the desire, from everybody, to gain advantage on their fellow man.
Nobody said the computer cannot upgrade or change. Emotion, fear, and greed are products of a society where you do not know if you are going to get your next meal or worry about your job. This society breeds these things. This system would require a bit more of a conscious society. But, with this movement i believe it is time for ACTUAL change. And not Barack Obama change because he is just like bush. Even if these demands of this group are met what is REALLY going to change? The federal reserve still isn't going to get audited, the EXACT same powers are going to be in office, and the rich will simply leave or find loopholes in paying taxes just like they have been.
Hey, success, just wanted to mention that the Buffet rule is a law that was basically written by Wall St. As such, it is not acceptable at all...
I agree with most of what you said, though.
really.. in the end, the Buffet rule raises the taxes on his secretary and lowers his taxes, ironically.