Forum Post: Not "demands", steps, goals and issues
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 5, 2011, 2:04 p.m. EST by ConcernedPhDstudents
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I think the way people talk to the media (and to each other) about these protests is important. Giving a list of "demands" risks, on the one hand, being too focused (and eliminating some interesting/interested protesters), and on the other hand, risks being too amorphous, unachievable and untenable (reverse corporate personhood and give everyone money and save the animals, etc). So, I suggest we all start speaking in terms of issues and goals or "steps" the government could take right now that would address some "issues." This might be more productive. I compiled a few steps here, but this list is not intended to reflect the desires of any single group: http://actnowplan.wordpress.com
I think part of what you are saying is correct. We can't alienate from each other by going after a particular demand, although if we don't list a particular demand we won't be getting anything. I think pro-democracy reforms of getting corporations influence out of government is something that everyone, right or left, should be able to agree on. Once the government is back in the hands of the people, then we can settle the other issues by democratic means.
I think your list is nice, but I don't think it addresses the fundamental problem: that corporations are in charge of our government. Unless we get them out everything that is given to us will simply be a temporary concession. We need to reform our "democracy" into being a democracy.
I agree with you completely, GammaPoint. As I posted elsewhere: My suggestion is that the movement have a laser focus on one and only one issue: Restoring the government to the people. Right now, we don't have a democracy, we have a corporate oligarchy. If this is changed and true democracy restored, all of the policy issues can be settled later, as they should be via the democratic process. Unless and until corporate influence is removed from government, the movement has no chance of changing anything--you are asking the corrupt 1% that is in power to change themselves. That's not going to happen. Forget about all the policy issues (taxation, student loans etc). Returning government to the people is the means by which you accomplish everything else, and it is the ONLY way it will be accomplished. Moreover, picking sides on policies will only alienate people. The 99% are never going to agree on policy. Strength in numbers is the only power the movement has--don't diminish that by creating policy divides. Get corporations out of government, return the power to the people and then move on with democracy to settle everything else.
Totally agreed! What we need right now is a single message to focus the movement. I actually think that it's too early for a specific list of demands. I think specific demands at this point would only serve to divide us. If demands weren't divisive we would have an agreed upon list by now. Also, there are not enough people involved in the movement yet to decide on our demands democratically.
"Restore Government to the People!" Is something that we can all agree on. It rings true for people of all different political leanings. What we need to do now is to get this message all over the news. We need overwhelming signage on the ground. We need people to center their talking points around this idea when talking to the media.
Occupy Everything, what do we want? To restore government to the people!!! Let's grow this movement and get more people talking about how best to make this happen.
I would add to this that each of the city's should continue having talks about specific policy changes that should be made. Perhaps then we can have a nation wide discussion and eventually democratically decide on specific demands. I'm excited to participate in such a process!!!
And as I replied elsewhere:
Agreed, it should be one person - one vote, and not $1 - one vote.
Another thing - we have to educate ourselves about what sovereign government can do in fiat monetary system with flexible exchange rate regime.
government sector balance + non-government sector balance = 0
which means that government deficit = non-government surplus
and pubic "debt" = non-government sector's wealth $-for-$
Stop the crazy fiscal austerity ! Active fiscal policy to constantly maintain big enough (but not bigger) aggregate demand necessary to put everybody back to work.
http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf
Hasn't the utter failure of every single solitary inflationary rip-off scheme since the fall of the Roman Empire made ANY impression on you??
You can never get something for nothing. When someone can debase the currency, all the power gets concentrated and freedom is lost. Every time!
Agreed, though I might add that the movement has a secondary goal, which is to achieve it's primary goal through peaceful demonstration, through discussion, and through openness. A medicine for the disease of hate rhetoric that has completely infected American politics and media. This is, of course, not a political demand because it is not something you could legislate, but it is so important that people say "enough, let's really talk".
I agree. The dialogue must continue. We need to find a way to talk to each other and not at each other.
meep,
I think that is absolutely right. It's important that we make this movement about really discussing things with each other. We don't have to agree with each other, but it's important that we argue in an intellectually-honest manner and respectfully.
Thank you for being a part of that.
Liberty, I think you said it better than I did.
I intend to try to persuade others that this is the most important thing (unless of course someone can argue that it's not, but I haven't seen any convincing arguments of that yet).
I share your goal, Gamma. I think there are a lot of smart, energetic young people in this movement and it is off to a great start. However, there are lots of potential traps, some of which are apparent to old farts like me ;-) Hopefully we can help the movement avoid such things.
Agreed. Keep up the good work.
It should be illegal to be a lobbyist in Washington.
Advocating a removal of corporate influence is an empty banner. What specific policy do you propose to do this?
One good would be to cut off TBTF banks access to the private Federal Reserve discount window, which is the primary means of recapitalization of bankrupt institutions.
There are many ways by which corporate influence can be removed from government, such as 1) ending corporate personhood; 2) eliminate corporate lobbying; 3) eliminate corporate campaign contributions; 4) close the revolving door between regulatory agencies and corporations. I'm sure there are many more ways in which corporate influence can be removed, however.... I would caution against advocating specific policy changes. This is where you will create division and weakness in the movement. You will not get everyone to agree on HOW to go about making a change, but you can get everyone to agree on WHAT needs to be changed. That is the first step. You must actually have the support of as much of the population as possible and you get that by agreeing on a common goal.
Specific policy actions need to be determined by democratic process, not mob rule. First get everyone to agree on the goal. Then, when the movement is too big to fail (couldn't resist), specific policy actions can be agreed to.
And let them keep on printing money in secret. Sure, that will fix everything.
Human Farming continues unabated.
I think we need buy in from more people on the ground before we make getting rid of the Fed our banner. I agree that it needs to go, or we at least need to make charging interest illegal. However, until we have more people involved in the movement we only give our opponents leverage to divide us. Remember, they can afford to pour millions of dollars into marketing against us, they already are. If we give them something too specific they have something to bite down on. Let's make our movement HUGE and then drop the Fed bomb.
I've been working on waking people up to this issue for years.
We've finally got somewhere between 15 and 20%. Once someone knows, they can never go back. The spreading of the truth is inevitable once it passes 15%. They cannot stop it now. But in the meantime, expect every possible type of chicanery, disinformation, and even violence. Watch out for false flag attacks. And don't get stampeded into some kind of public spectacle that can be used as an excuse to impose a police state.
No, the Fed needs to go. You'll get no argument from me that supports their completely irresponsibly debasement of the currency. I'm only suggesting that you can't get rid of the Fed or make any other changes until the people regain control of the government. That's all.
I understand but am worried that unlimited funding and ownership of all aspects of government might make regaining control a little difficult.
I agree. I think we're arguing chicken and egg, but have the same end goals. As I see it, the Fed has to go AND corporate influence needs to be removed from Washington. If we remove corp influence (which includes the banker's influence), we can then democratically get rid of the Fed. I think we do stand a chance of removing corporate influence via actions of the people. For example, if the people refuse to elect anyone who has taken money form any corporation, and we recall anyone who accepts money from a corp after they are elected, we will get politicians to stop accepting corporate money (and then influence). I'm sure there are more ways to affect this change that I haven't thought of. IN any case, once it's done, then we can move forward on eliminating the Fed. If we try to get rid of the Fed first, then we have to convince the elite who are benefiting from the Fed's largess and the politicians they have paid for to vote for something that is against their own interests, and I don't think they'll do it. If public outcry is loud enough, they will come up with a plan that purports to eliminate the Fed, but it will be replaced with another institution which will undoubtedly have even more power. This seems to be the way power has been concentrated in the hands of the elite for generations.
Points taken, but starting with the battle against the trusts over a century ago, it looks to me like efforts such as you describe are akin to Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football kick-off.
Like a pernicious picker weed, if we want to live without the stinging nettles, we have to get the root. Otherwise we'll be constantly battling the results instead of just stopping them from happening again in the first place.
It is chicken and egg. Don't abandon either approach. As long as we keep calling attention to the source of the loss of jobs, homes, and broken families, we will get there. Already we have somewhere between 15 and 20% awareness. It's unstoppable now. Inevitable. So be wary of false flag attacks and other desperate measures.
We are in agreement. I don't hold that I know the one and only right way to bring about change. Like everyone else in this movement, I am just a patriot hoping to save my country. By sharing our ideas and perspectives we can hopefully come up with a better approach than any one of us could conceive of alone. Solidarity, bro.
That is my hope, too. Thanks.
While I support your sentiment and direction, none of this really addresses the financial influence of people who have access to unlimited funds via the printing press of the private Federal Reserve.
I'm not sure on specific policies at the moment (I'd like to see some educated discussion on this), but just off the top of my head something like public financing of elections (and only public financing), instant runoff type voting for federal offices so that third party candidates can have a chance, etc.
I think 2 goals that could be pursued are 1). Get money out of politics through campaign finance reform and 2). Get rid of the two-party system which prevents us from voting for those who represent us.
The first goal has fewer options to choose from when picking a solution, whereas there might be more choices that need to be discussed with the second option.
As long as the money is created as debt, which you owe, and which gets spent to rule over you, all the rest is window dressing.
Whether or not that is true isn't the main point I think. And if it IS true, then that makes it more important to get control of the government so that we can change it.
I know it's not the main point for most people. But it is the fount of power. It buys everything. If you don't hack the root, you are wasting your time.
Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act would be the first step. Look at history. Government has been bought and controlled by banking interests for over a century.
I'd like to know your opinion of this 13-minute video, please:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVjIR_oai-A
One more thing--when I speak of eliminating corporate influence, please don't think I am excluding the banks, who are some of the biggest corporate influencers of government.
I agree completely, HankReardon (love the name). I would go further and not just deny banks access to the discount window, but eliminate the Fed all together, as you suggest.
I just don't think there is any way to get the current powers that be--who benefit from Fed largess--to make that change. If we regain control of the government, then we can eliminate the Fed, amongst other things. The elites aren't going to throw themselves out.
They're not going to throw themselves out, and they will not let their claws loose of that free money spigot without resorting to every kind of chicanery up to and including desperate violence, either.
If we start making it look like we are a threat to the Fed, watch out for a false flag attack.
On that point we agree completely.
Don't have time to watch a 13-minute video right now as I'm at work.
But if you think repeal of the FRA would be a good idea it's something that could be worked on once we have democratic power.
You won't get the cart before the horse.
The only hope of effecting peaceful change, if you are after a restoration of liberty and prosperity, is to get the whole country clamoring for it. Otherwise, it will just be used as an excuse to exercise police state powers. Mark my words.
I agree that we need the whole country clamoring for it. But the whole country is much more likely to be behind pro-democratic measures than they are to be behind abolishing the FED.
Then the Human Farming will continue without a hiccup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVjIR_oai-A
I get the feeling you're a Ron Paul supporter who doesn't actually want democracy. You just want less Fed.
That's fine, but you need to make better arguments, at least if you're going to convince me.
Democracy? No, I'd prefer at least restoring our constitutionally limited republic, and restricting government to the confines of the constitution, for a start.
Democracy is three drunken thugs and an 11 year old girl voting on what to do for entertainment tonight.
Why should Americans be subject to the decrees of dead men? Is there a logical basis for that assertion?
Haha! Principles are timeless. I never accept any argument on the basis of legitimacy from authority or tradition.
Oh, and generally the decrees come from real live men, who stand to collect off your efforts and seek to control you.
Good thoughts, Gammapoint. Thanks.
And thank you for your contribution =)