Forum Post: Not all OWS'rs are far left, but you campaigners LOST my vote.
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 25, 2011, 7:35 a.m. EST by PandaMe73
(303)
from Oakland, CA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I have seen you RP supporters cry censorship again and again. How is it censorship to not allow a group of folks,who are in the main not supportive of a website's goals and mission (for example by calling the intended users of the site, OWS supporters and info seekers, commies, hippies, trash,etc,etc), to attempt to use that website for their own goals? For people so gung ho about respect for private property, it turns out you aren't too concerned about the rights of the group owning the domain name and paying the server costs of this website, or the OWS supportive donors who help fund it and use it, who fully have the right to ask that visitors use this site to focus on OWS and not as a campaign site. But the RP supporters here feel it is their right to use other people's property and efforts, for their own uses and without permission, which I believe is called being a freeloader, despite the fact that they level the accusation at any they disagree with.
Despite being indirectly called a commie,socialist, hippie and all around scumbag for being an OWS supporter, I am politically independent and I was actually considering voting for RP until about a week ago, and was looking into his platform, because although I am not a libertarian, I do agree with some of their arguments, albeit to a more limited extent, and also because I am not happy with any of the other options. But that was until I came here, carefully observed all the goings on, and saw how so many of his staunchest supporters were acting. The libertarian brand has some associations that have caused me some doubt in the past, but not enough to discount RP as a viable option, and not enough to take a much closer look at the parties members. Third time's a charm though, and after looking closer, third strike you're out.
The Tea Party association was a turn off for me, because the behavior and hateful speech of the tea-party faithful was very distasteful to me. But it was not enough to make me count RP out as an option because I figured that they in the main weren't really libertarian, just using the party as a front after the republican brand got so tarnished by Bush. The fact that so many claim Ann Rynd as an idol was also worrisome, for her philosophy and person were revealed to be extremely repugnant to me after doing some study. That was still not enough for me to discount the party as a whole, because I figured that every party has some nut jobs, and also that most of those claiming an affinity with her philosophy had perhaps read a book of hers, or a few passages from them, or otherwise had gained their understanding of her and her philosophy from positive secondary sources which often whitewash her history and theories and are in the main inaccurate.
After watching and reading here for only a little while, I became very turned off from the libertarian brand yet again. I was led to look closer at some of the libertarian forums I could find online and while they seem somewhat nicer there, it is easy to be nice on your own turf where no one challenges you. Even there, by somewhat, I mean only a little, for there was still much demonizing of any outsiders and name calling toward any challengers. I see now that either way, it appears that the same hate and hypocrisy can be found, either simmering below the surface or boiling over, at any of the places I've examined where people using the label libertarian gather in number. I can only conclude this hatefulness is part and parcel of too great a percentage of the present day libertarian movement for me to currently cast my vote for one of their candidates. Too many of you indeed ARE as nasty and hateful as the idol so many of you espouse, Ann Rynd.
My apologies to those libertarians who are reasonable people who don't act this way. I know a few of you in person, and have seen one or two in here respectfully debating. But to anyone closely examining and taking a head count, at least among the vocal libertarians in the media and online, who are the only ones I can use to evaluate the situation, you are much smaller in number than the unreasonable and "can't play nice" element among you.
To the libertarians here acting so hypocritically and being so aggressively nasty, I thank you for revealing your true colors-- a quick look at RP's campaign literature and platform may not have been enough to reveal the real nature of so many of the followers of the libertarian movement, but in your behavior here, and by making me take a closer look, you have. Consider it one vote lost, for your campaign efforts here (and that's at least, I posted my observations in my social networks and I know at least 3 others who told me they are reassessing their likelihood of voting for RP as well). Since those in my networks and I are not the only ones who believes character counts, I hardly think we can be the only ones.
"For people so gung ho about respect for private property, it turns out you aren't too concerned about the rights of the group owning the domain name and paying the server costs of this website, or the OWS supportive donors who help fund it and use it, who fully have the right to ask that visitors use this site to focus on OWS and not as a campaign site."
I LOVE THIS!
ALL the self righteous trolls should read it! Very nicely said, I haven't been able to come up with anything better than "quite whining, moderation happens all over the internet".
On behalf of my fellow Ron Paul supporters I sincerely apologize. A lot of us are very passionate about what he stands for and some people show their passion the wrong way. Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. Don't back down from something you believe in out of spite. Ron Paul can help all of us. Please reconsider.
Thanks, no apology needed, I know there are libertarians with integrity, and I always ultimately will do what I think is best, including vote for the best man or woman....RP can still get my vote.
I just wanted to point out the terrible impression this site gives an undecided observer who cares about character as well as ideas.
Besides RP has a distinct advantage this primary, as all the other Republicans this run appear to be ill-informed, W on steroids, batshit crazy, or some combination of the three. I HAVE to vote for him in the primaries or withhold my vote, I can't in good conscience vote for any of those other idiots even as a tactical move if I wanted O to win, which until he does something to prove he isn't just same old crap as W but in blue this time, I don't. And if RP wins the primaries he has plenty of time to win the country over :)
First off, anyone crying free speech or censorship for being kicked off a private website, isn't much of a libertarian. A true libertarian understands their rights and what that entails.
Secondly, libertarians, as a group, have been so shut out of the national debate for so long that when we get a voice we tend to speak loudly.
Thirdly, as a libertarian I have been called ALL kinds of names on here by the same movement I support. I have been called racist, crazy, a kook, an idiot, etc etc etc. So don't get all high and mighty as there are bad apples in every bunch. Lets all focus on what the message is, how we fix it is the debate, but don't let the debate get in the way of the goal.
..Here Here ! Well Stated!
I am glad for the libertarians here taking part in constructive debate, my point was more rhetorical than not, though it still reflects how I feel about the nastyness I've seen -- still considering the field I hope to heaven he wins over his opponents, as O has angered so many he stands a good chance of losing-- see my post below concerning RP in the primaries, it's him or stay home at this point. But every person driven away is precious, if he wins it'll be a slim margin.
I do understand your second point. I just think they need to lighten up on the free speech complaints and on the "dirty hippie" name calling. Berkley is one town over from me, I absolutely can't stand hippies, it's a sore point ;) And telling people who either A. Bust ass at a job like anyone else or even worse B. would LOVE a job, any job, and are among those who have sent out thousands of resumes over the past two years and are still about to lose their shirt because there aren't enough to go around, is just about the worst PR anyone could muster. Same with telling someone who busts ass at a minimum wage job but still lands below the poverty line that they are looking for a "hand-out" when they oppose the the same banks that were bailed out, earning record profits.
My advice here, if any take it to heart and alter their behavior to stick to courteous debating, will help the RP campaign :)
@Panda...being a libertarian means that you agree with some right wing positions and some left wing positions. I see a lot of people confused, and probably rightfully so, about the libertarian message. Some people confuse conservative ideals with libertarianism. I have even heard some people label Reagan as a libertarian! YIKES!
All I ask of OWS is to not shut anyone out of the debate. Stick to the message of the system is broken and needs fixed. We all agree on that.
We can all agree on that, I just think it is gonna take everyone pitching in to fix this, which means I want, no we all will need, you guys at the table, but everybody needs to play nice and try to stay civil in the meantime. We're only in the sandbox now, and we won't even get to the table if we already make each other think there is no point by bickering here. I am not a libertarian, but like you I hold both conservative and liberal views, and am convinced that this is the best chance for both sides to get some of what they want, and create something that's damn sure more viable than what we have now. But if both sides, or either, refuse to compromise based on some delusion that by holding out they'll get the whole pie, we will all lose. If the libertarians, other brands of centrists, moderate conservatives, and the left can't compromise, we get the same old shit no matter who is elected, there will be no return of ANY form of autonomy to the states for the RP folks, there will be no kumbaya social justice on any level for the left of center, and we can all go back to hoarding for the apocalypse.
Sigh, either way, thanks to you and the others who came in here to talk with me and prove there's more to the picture than can always be seen peering in from the outside, and for doing so diplomatically-- It was honorable for you to engage on the weaknesses of my argument while not attempting to cover up the less flattering observations dishonestly, I wasn't sure there would be any of you not in a rush to rise to the bait, after watching the shit storm on here and finding the view so obscured. I figured as many times as I have seen the jobless hippie crap loosed pretty much in a metaphorical wide arcing spray here, and getting hit willynilly with more than one round, if I hadn't found a few of you able to suck it up and come talk civilly in the face of some goading, I was gonna throw in the towel here and move on to the moderated forum.
Considering it's limitations, this site isn't much use to anyone beyond entertainment value if it's nothing but true believers and an aggressive and hostile opposition. But true believers and and even a small handful of thoughtful, persistent, and patient opposing/alternative voices, now that is something unique and valuable, that can balance out into creating a much more stable foundation for change than can be built alone by any one faction. If you doubt it can happen, please let me reassure you that as easy as it was for someone like me peering in from the outside to get a distorted view of what libertarianism represents, so it is with peering into the OWS from outside, there is more that you can work with than might be obvious, but not if it appears that everyone from the libertarian wing of we the people is intransigently hostile and painting all the protesters as freeloading trash, which is what the loudest voices on here are looping.
Anyway, I'm tired, but I hope to see you around continuing to shed light on the libertarian stall in the marketplace of ideas :)
What is far left and far right?
Convenient words used to generally stand in for differing worldviews as understood within the context of this country's political system, naturally unable to precisely convey the range of political views at these ends of the spectrum, but the meaning generally agreed upon in so much as they are able to convey a limited amount of meaning. So this means you can look the terms up on the web, and most definitions you find will be close enough to what I had in mind.
"RP supporters here feel it is their right to use other people's property and efforts, for their own uses and without permission, " You mean how OWS protesters think they have a right to shit and piss in doorways of buildings, enter private property to protest, and use business' facilities without patronage? Interesting.
Ahhh, so because public bathrooms in most urban areas are not provided so that public urination can be us used to criminalize homelessness,and porta potties can't be set up either, opponents use this to act like this is something protesters would choose if given another choice.
I think you missed my point. I'm calling you, and anyone that supports your view, hypocrites. The Constitution does NOT provide you with the right to trespass and/or vandalize private property. Yet, the OWS has been doing so, repeatedly. You then come here to complain that another group is using "other people's property and efforts, for their own uses without permission", i.e. the same EXACT thing a LOT of OWS protesters are doing on a daily basis. The difference being that this is a public forum open to all, so in that sense, your statement is completely invalid anyway. At least Ron Paul and Tea Party supporters and demonstrators work within the limits of legality. The OWS is a joke.
Actually, I understood your point perfectly, it is not that complex. My point however appears to have gone completely over your head, but I didn't give your post as much attention as the others since I discuss the whole "free speech" red herring thoroughly enough there, so that's partially my fault for not spelling it out more clearly. 1-In America, direct, non-violent protest, in the form of gathering and demonstration in public spaces, has proven to be THE most effective means of demanding change, and the THE only way to get the U.S. government to listen to the will of the people, when voting, petitions, polls, etc have not worked.
2- In order to accomplish this, it requires that a great number of people gather in one place, and often demonstrations must happen over a long period of time. 3- People need to urinate and deficate a few times a day, even if they would prefer it were otherwise. 4- As a result of #2 and #3 at any protest there will be a great number of people needing to find a place to relieve biological needs, numerous times. 5- Conveniently, (for controlling the public,decidedly inconveniently for citizens) and in contrast to most 1st world nations, American cities provide a decided lack of public facilities for citizens to use, while criminalizing going wee wee in the bushes. 6-Nor do they allow porta-potties be set up without extensive permitting, since unlike the tea-party, this IS a grassroots protest of the people, this was not possible. 7- Nevertheless, even with such limitations, the vast majority of protesters have walked a good distance to find facilities, or waited in very long lines every time they had to go. However, when nature calls urgently some have had to go where they could manage, and some of course have been rude and done in public what they could have found a better place for, but both groups together still are a small minority. 8- To claim that this is anything but the fault of the officials who choose to keep public facilities scarce precisely for the purpose of providing legal means to harass the citizenry and for example shut down protest actions which are the only form of free speech with a proven track record for achieving results means YOU are the hypocrite here, and the opponent of free speech and a mouth piece for government propaganda, not I.
Ha. No good will come from working within a corrupt system while trying to change that system. There are unjust laws - you know that, don't you? You're also taking these forum users to characterize the entire movement. You're way off base.
See elsewhere where I note looking at a variety of examples of online communities, also where I concede some points on that.
The point still being that what's been going on here is still not cool. And how is voting for particular candidate any less "working within a corrupt system while trying to change that system" than protest? Finally, unjust laws are part of what the folks are protesting, but yeah, there are many not mentioned as part of the protesters gripes... your point being (since a statement of the obvious is not a cogent argument)?
Hmm, I think my reply was meant for VivaLaRev. Anyway, Civil disobedience, at least in the form that OWS is taking, is something that has never been done before on this scale. That is not "working within the system."
LOL sorry, I find the threading here can be confusing at times, in my haste to get to everyone trying to debate, I also took on the only person at the time helping me engage in discussion the folks replying to my points, my apologies. And you are right about the scale and scope, I guess that's why so many are excited on both sides ;)
If voting could change anything it would be outlawed. Support the General Assemblies forget the old ways of corporatism and pretend democracy..
If you're basing your vote on the words of a few people on an anonymous website you probably shouldn't vote at all.
Rather I would suggest that you attempt to look past the political bias and rhetoric (and holy shit is there a lot of it) and try to see which candidate (from whichever political party) has the ideas and goals that will help strengthen the country the most.
Hardly a few on one website, the few on this website prodded me to look further, I have been to quite a few more since then. My vote is lost for now , in as much as unless convinced I won't vote in the primaries. RP can get it back, but I do believe the behavior I have seen is a bad sign, so I will be looking more closely as time progresses.
There should be more voters as open minded and strong-willed as yourself.
Thanks. I am hopeful, many are just out of practice from limited options and limited dialogue, only time will tell :)
9/11 is invoked and broadcast daily
American people refuse to examine the evidence that was filmed at the WTC to learn what really happened. Americans are too arrogant and too ignorant to admit they were misled and manipulated by their government and media propaganda whose claims are on the level of Santa coming down the chimney to leave presents under the tree. The Santa story grooms American children to accept complete nonsense later in their lives about 9/11 and other very important criminal acts by government officials.
There are no quotas in America for the number of lies told by American officials. There is a bottomless pit of lies and weird nonsense that Americans have no problem accepting. Obama just told another whopper when he claimed that all troops will be brought home from Iraq. The troops left in Iraq are called contractors. No media reporters are reporting the contractor story. Americans now call liars "flip-floppers".
The book written by NYT reporter Philip Shenon divulges incredible first hand accounts from senior officials including the Director of the FBI Tom Pickard who had a violent confrontation with his boss, the attorney general John Ashcroft on July 12, 2001 because Ashcroft refused to listen to any evidence that America would be attacked by Al Qaeda at the direction of Osama bin Laden.
The fact that Shenon and his editors for the NYT decided to hide this story by not publishing it in the NYT when Shenon learned about it directly from Tom Pickard in 2004, but published the story in 2008 in Shenon's book THE COMMISSION is the revelation that only SCREWED AGAIN has published for its world wide audience. http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
I would suggest that you go to Daily Kos and establish an account, and then try to make conservative comments to diaries, even in a respectful way. You will find that the hate "simmering below the surface or boiling over", is not limited to people using the libertarian label. It is just a fact that a lot of people only feel comfortable in what they deem to be a "safe" group, where groupthink exists, and where they do not have to defend their ideas alone.
I never said that other groups of other ideologies don't engage in similar bad behavior, and in fact, I have taken other folks to task for hateful tactics and name calling, even in groups where I am part of the in group and agree with their points.
I am a woman and feminist, and the last time I took folks to task in a forum was the feminists in a public forum, for the behavior toward sincere posters identifying as male and out of ignorance making some small error in wording or viewpoint, who subsequently found themselves being torn apart like some poor lamb among lions and held up as the quintessential example of the misogynist oppressor, even though it was obvious they intended to show solidarity. I pointed out that even if the errors made did need to be pointed out and corrected, to do it so unkindly placed them more in the mode of ball busting bitches that anything the men posting did to earn the mantle laid on them for mistakes of ignorance and not malice and moreover made a potential ally into an opponent unlikely to try siding with them again. There was much more to that, but that's just a for instance.
I don't read the Daily Kos, but I know that sites both left and right censor and keep their safe little enclaves safe from opposing view points, and while I agree it sucks, it is within their legal right.
And yes, the hate simmering below the surface is everywhere, I grant you that and you are right, it's unfair to paint libertarians with a brush implying they are the only folk who defend their home turf so brusquely. Please accept my apology for not noting I find it just as distasteful elsewhere and it does indeed exist elsewhere.
But understand, this is not libertarian home turf, it is open to all who agree that our financial and political systems are not serving the people and that something must be done. This so far is one of THE only places I've found in near half a decade where people making a polite argument and not co-opting or being disruptive are NOT censored regardless of ideology (i.e. except the outer fringe such as Nazi's or the like). Not one of the folks with a rep for reasonableness on here is crying foul like that, only the trolliest of the hippie hatin' trolls.
That is why I'm so upset by the actions of a few which are having the effect of either driving OWS supporters to other moderated forums and back into the mode of all like minded answers, turning the curious off to the site immediately before they even enter the dialogue, or interrupting the productive dialogue with distractions and red herrings. THAT is all having the effect of stifling dialogue (the best kind of free speech) and dialogue is the ONLY thing that is going to get us out of this mess, agree with OWS tactics or no.
Before OWS there was almost no dialogue across ideological boundaries occurring, and the focus of public debate was dictated by media and corporate interests out of line with the concerns of the citizens. Since OWS there has been more debate and here, hallelujah, debate between people of every leaning. With the points you bring up, you must be aware of how precious that is!!! Shame on the petty people who are trying to sabotage that!!! No, not all are libertarian, but I expected more from the libertarians. Especially now that (despite some socially liberal policies) they represent one of the few sources of conservative thought that haven't become completely unhinged.
And yes many of the OWS folks are left leaning to varying degrees but many are not. And among the ones who are, many DO grant opponents their good points and argue politely, and when they've gotten too rude it's been after quite a bit of provocation. So it is not cool to come to the only site where you guys and everyone esle do get a chance to debate your points, the one rule being don't turn this into your RP campaign site, and then claim censorship-- when libertarian voices are not censored. Nor is the out of control name calling. Both are about the last thing I'd advise if you want people to think about your points and gain credibility with them.
Unfortunately, to have a site where everyone is free to participate, you have to actually keep it free to participate, and suffer the unkindness of strangers and those groups wanting to push a particular philosophy or candidate like RP. I can usually just read a few lines from a post and know whether to skip it real quick or to read further. You seem like a nice lady, my opinion of feminists has been improved today.
Thanks, as has my view of libertarians :)
Libertarians know this is a private site. It's up to the domain owner to restrict who they want. As long as this forum is open to the public and registration is easy, you can expect opposing views to keep posting until they are banned. OWS tries to come across as pure and untainted and Libertraians see it's bullshit. Of course they will call out the hypocrisy of the movement.
Libertarians have been bemoaning about the system for a long time. They predicted our current economy by observing governments actions. OWS is late to the party. OWS has hijacked Libertarian grievances as a trojan horse for Marxsim. If you want to fix the problems then listen to the Libertarians wisdom. If you want to increase our problems, then force more government on us as OWS wants.
Jesus H., I don't think you guys have any clue the difference between democratic socialism, marxism, and communism, as freely as you throw it around without the slightest worry that your arguments or insults (since your insults so often are used to stand in stead of argument) even approach accuracy. This protest includes people of many political leanings, and yes some of them are socialist, but most aren't. Regardless, neither those who desire a fairer tax code,either through a tax rate more in line with what we have traditionally had before the social contract started to be dismantled a few decades back, or asking that we close the loopholes that keep the upper income brackets from paying their fair share, are asking for anything near Marxism. Nor is asking that corporate contributions stop unfairly influencing the political process and robbing the citizenry of its only political muscle, Marxism. Neither is anger at the use of public funds to bail private business out of a financial fiasco of their own creation, only to have them literally thumb their noses at a public suffering from the results of their economic hanky panky.
Humorously enough (if absurdity is your cuppa), demanding that people halt their free speech and right to protest and go home immediately, and claiming that their desire to halt the injustice of the decidedly anti capitalist bailouts and corporate welfare state we have become is somehow anti-american ... now that IS far closer to the kinds of oppressive communist thinking that folks who throw the term Marxist around intend it to mean, while completely missing the irony of their own anti-democratic, anti-capitalist stand.
Oh and BTW, almost all forums visible to the public, are open to the public, and allow public registration, as most private forums require some key to gain access or are email based news groups. Again, to claim it gives people a right to use the forums as they please, even to the point of impeding the sites ability to function as intended is a lie, especially when those posts written in polite opposition,using argument and in line with the intent of the forums are not censored, even ones showing libertarian ideology.... opposition is not censored, attempts to co-op the intent of the forum and disrupt are. If you want to make the free speech claim yet again, not matter the logic laid out against it, please provide the ruling that says open registration forums may not be moderated or it is a violation of free speech or zip it already.... sheesh.
Fair taxation is equal taxes. It means we all pay the same rate and are bound by the same rules. What you are suggesting is discrimination. You want to oppress a 1% minority due to jealousy. Which is why our founders planted a limited republic instead of a mob rules democracy....Closing loopholes, exemptions and entitlements are Libertarian values. So is refusing to bailout corporations or citizens who took risks and refuse to take personal responsiblity for it....Marxism is assassination of the individual. You forsake his right to choose and give it to government. Government then uses force to choose it's "righteous" decision on him. OWS is a Marxist movement for the most part. They truely believe they know what is best for all of us. Have already judged who the guilty are. Have already decided they should be punished. Now it's just a matter of using government to force their terrorism on the individual.
I said nothing about limiting ones freedom of speech. On this private website, the owners can restrict speech as they wish. In a public protest on the street, freedom of speech means OWS can speak and at the same time any other citizen can tell them they are full of it. OWS is the one telling white straight males to get at the back of the line. OWS are the ones telling people when they can speak. Telling their movement to avoid certain words or stereotypes. Only letting one person speak at a time.
Again, you have no concept of freedom of speech. In my prior post I clearly stated this is a private website. It's NOT a freedom of speech issue on this board. I never said that. I said they left the forum open to the public and registration is easy. That's an open invitation. I can come here and post as I wish. If they don't like it they can remove my post or ban me. It's their right and by refusing their rules I agree to the punishment.
This is not my board and I don;'t give a shit what they remove or refuse to post. It's their right. It does however expose their hypocrisy.... Co-opt? What the fuck is that? I thought your little OWS didn't have a leader or official statement? How the fuck could it be co-opted? "Co-opt" is just a word you use to silence those who don't agree with your particular opinion. Again, on this board you have every right to limit words. On the street, I'll use your ignorance against you and shout back my opinion. That's freedom of speech.
LOL, never mind, nothing but marxist scum here, carry on.