Forum Post: Noam Chomsky on Neoliberalism
Posted 10 years ago on April 11, 2014, 12:02 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80
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Neoliberalism is not liberal, according to Chomsky. Early capitalist nations in the West such as the U.S. and England and Germany developed by radically violating what are now called neoliberal principals, strong states, direct intervention of the economy, etc. The third world, including China and India, was devastated by the forced imposition of market principals that resulted, he says.
"Every element of the neoliberal package is specifically designed to undercut democracy." Chomsky.
The truth is that neoliberal policies hurt on a macro and micro level, masses and masses of people. Profit becomes the only goal, and profit hoarded at the top, with a very small percentage of people benefiting leaves the rest to struggle.
What flavour of neo-liberalism? Keynesian? Orthodox? Mercantilism? Huh?
''Under the regime of neoliberalism, especially in the United States, war has become an extension of politics as almost all aspects of society have been transformed into a combat zone. Americans now live in a society in which almost everyone is spied on, considered a potential terrorist, and subject to a mode of state and corporate lawlessness in which the arrogance of power knows no limits. The state of exception has become normalized. Moreover, as society becomes increasingly militarized and political concessions become relics of a long-abandoned welfare state hollowed out to serve the interest of global markets, the collective sense of ethical imagination and social responsibility toward those who are vulnerable or in need of care is now viewed as a scourge or pathology.
'What has emerged in this new historical conjuncture is an intensification of the practice of disposability in which more and more individuals and groups are now considered excess, consigned to zones of abandonment, surveillance and incarceration. Moreover, this politics of disappearance has been strengthened by a fundamental intensification of increasing depoliticization, conducted largely through new modes of spying and the smothering, if not all-embracing, market-driven power of commodification and consumption.
''Neoliberalism’s disposability machine is relentlessly engaged in the production of an unchecked notion of individualism that both dissolves social bonds and removes any viable notion of agency from the landscape of social responsibility and ethical considerations. Absorbed in privatized orbits of consumption, commodification and display, Americans vicariously participate in the toxic pleasures of a mode of authoritarianism characterized by the reactionary presence of the corporate state, the concentration of power and money in the upper 1% of the population, the ongoing militarization of all aspects of society, and the ongoing, aggressive depoliticization of the citizenry.
''As the welfare state is hollowed out, a culture of compassion is replaced by a culture of violence, cruelty and atomization. Within the existing neoliberal historical conjuncture, there is a merging of violence and governance and the systemic disinvestment in, and breakdown of, institutions and public spheres that have provided the minimal conditions for democracy. A generalized fear now shapes American society - one that thrives on insecurity, precarity, dread of punishment, and a perception of constant lurking threats. Americans occupy a historical conjuncture in which everything that matters politically, ethically and culturally is being erased - either ignored, turned into a commodity or simply falsified.
''At stake here is more than a call for reform. The American public needs to organize around a revolutionary ideal that enables people to hold power, participate in the process of governing, and create public institutions and discourses capable of explaining and reversing chronic injustices and power relations evident everywhere in society. This is a revolution that not only calls for structural change, but for a transformation in the ways in which subjectivities are created, desires are produced, and agency itself is safeguarded as crucial to any viable notions of community and freedom. Democracy requires, at the very least, a type of education that fosters a working knowledge of citizenship and the development of individuals with the capacity to be self-reflective, passionate about the collective good, and able to defend the means by which ideas are translated into the worldly space of the public realm. It is not enough to wait for the Occupy Movement to revitalize itself.
''As Noam Chomsky has pointed out, the biggest threat to the Gilded Age autocrats is solidarity and rightly so. The time has come for a surge of opposition in the name of democracy, one designed to save the planet from destruction and for a social order in which economic justice is matched with a reverence for care for the other. Politics becomes meaningless without a vision, a willingness to develop a radical collective imagination rooted in a formative culture that nourishes a vibrant sense of critique, civic courage, and sustained collective struggle. Any struggle that matters will have to reimagine and fight for a society in which it becomes possible once again to dream the project of a substantive democracy.'' Excerpted and abridged from :
''Neoliberalism and the Machinery of Disposability'', by Henry A. Giroux : http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/22958-neoliberalism-and-the-machinery-of-disposability and also consider :
''McCutcheon took us back in time, but it might just birth the next Occupy'', by Robert B. Reich : http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/06/mccutcheon-conservative-supreme-court-next-occupy .
consilio et animis ...
Robert Reich thinks Thomas Piketty, in his trenchant new thesis re: wealth and inequity, is missing a link between economics and politics and he tries to tie the two together to make sense of things. He says: "One obvious connection is this: as wealth began to re-accumulate at the top in the 1970s, so did political power. That led to the indirect financing of political campaigns and the establishment of an army of lobbyists, researchers, denizens of think tanks and media experts – all of which eventually enabled the wealthy to lower their marginal taxes, summon bailouts and subsidies for their businesses, and remove regulations that otherwise reduced their profits.
The "conservative revolution" thereby marked a return to the politics of the late 19th century, in which dynastic fortunes were so interwoven into government that the "ruling class" could ensure that laws maintained both its wealth and its power to rule."
Reich then goes on to try to provide more hope for the future than Piketty does saying that "The supreme court's McCutcheon decision may make it easier for today's robber barons to take over American democracy in the short term. But by inviting them to do this so brazenly, McCutcheon may also fuel a popular backlash and a new era of democratic reform. It has happened before. Let's make it happen again."
Let's hope Reich is correct that the American people will rise up. Because any movement backward is pretty risky business especially with a citizenry as ignorant and apathetic as America's.
''Since the 1970s, neoliberalism or free-market fundamentalism has become not only a much-vaunted ideology that now shapes all aspects of life in the United States but also a predatory global phenomenon - that drives the practices and principles of the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and World Trade Organization, trans-national institutions which largely determine the economic policies of developing countries and the rules of international trade.
''As profits soar for corporations and the upper 1 percent, both political parties are imposing austerity measures that punish the poor and cut vital services for those who need them the most.
''Unfortunately, the US public has largely remained silent, if not also complicit in the rise of a neoliberal version of authoritarianism. While workers in Wisconsin, striking teachers in Chicago, and young people across the globe have challenged this politics and machinery of corruption, war, brutality, and social and civil death, they represent a small and marginalized part of the larger movement that will be necessary to initiate massive collective resistance to the aggressive violence being waged against all those public spheres that further the promise of democracy in the United States, the United Kingdom, France, and a host of other countries. The actions of teachers, workers, student protesters, and others have been crucial in drawing public attention to the constellation of forces that are pushing the United States and other neoliberal-driven countries into what Hannah Arendt called "dark times"or what might be described as an increasingly authoritarian public realm that constitutes a clear and present danger to democracy.
''Neoliberal governance has produced an economy and a political system almost entirely controlled by the rich and powerful—what a Citigroup report called a "plutonomy," an economy powered by the wealthy. I have referred to these plutocrats as "the new zombies": they are parasites that suck the resources out of the planet and the rest of us in order to strengthen their grasp on political and economic power and fuel their exorbitant lifestyles. Power is now global, gated, and driven by a savage disregard for human welfare, while politics resides largely in older institutions of modernity such as nation states. The new plutocrats have no allegiance to national communities, justice, or human rights, just potential markets and profits.
''One way of challenging the new authoritarianism is to reclaim the relationship between critical education and social change. The question of what kind of subjects and modes of individual and social agency are necessary for a democracy to survive appears more crucial now than ever before, and this is a question that places matters of education, pedagogy, and culture at the center of any understanding of politics. We live at a time when too few Americans appear to have an interest in democracy beyond the every-four-years ritual performance of voting, and even this act fails to attract a robust majority of citizens. The term "democracy" has been emptied of any viable meaning, hijacked by political scoundrels, corporate elites, and the advertising industry.''
~
The above was excerpted with difficulty (as there's so much there) from this really very important piece :
''Neoliberalism's War On Democracy'', by Henry A. Giroux : http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/23306-neoliberalisms-war-on-democracy - and also fyi :
http://www.popularresistance.org/the-working-class-mini-revolts-of-the-twenty-first-century/
Thanx and solidarity to OWS, The Global 99% and to all those who struggle every day for a 'bw' for all.
per ardua as astra ...
"The start of the twenty-first century has seen a continuing decline in union membership and strikes. But it has also seen the emergence of unpredicted mini-revolts." From popularresistance.org.
This is a wonderful thing because if workers can overcome the shaming that the right tries to put on them, in other words, you are paid a low wage because you perform a lowly task! You are paid a low wage because you are worthless! If workers can overcome this crap and see that they are paid a low wage because those are the only jobs out there! If they can see they are paid a low wage because the greedy bastards at the top are taking all the profits their labor produces! And, see that there is, in fact, plenty of money to pay them a human living wage! Then, they'll get out in the street and fight like hell.
Let's hope that the fast food strikes this week are just the beginning of a big wave of workers standing up with pride for their basic human right of dignified pay.
“It is futile to be ‘anti-Fascist’ while attempting to preserve capitalism,” George Orwell wrote. “Fascism after all is only a development of capitalism, and the mildest democracy, so-called, is liable to turn into Fascism.” from :
Thanx for your very powerful comment ! Solidarity @ The Fast Food Workers - Worldwide !! + see :
http://www.popularresistance.org/ is indeed an excellent site for The 99%! I recommend it to a!l readers.
consilio et animis ...
I do believe that if people today continue to fail to understand that the problem is capitalism and it's inherent corporatism, and not the government, we will meet with swift decline. But that is the ultimate ruse that those in government with ties to corporations want to propagate, and so far, it's working.
From Hedges: "The goals of corporate capitalism are increasingly indistinguishable from the goals of the state. The political and economic systems are subservient to corporate profit. Debate between conventional liberals and conservatives has been replaced by empty political theater and spectacle. Corporations, no matter which politicians are in office, loot the Treasury, escape taxation, push down wages, break unions, dismantle civil society, gut regulation and legal oversight, control information, prosecute endless war and dismantle public institutions and programs that include schools, welfare and Social Security."
Wake up people! Get corporations out of your government. Demand a legitimate government that represents you and your interests, not those of the wealthy and corporations.
YES, ''Wake up people! Get corporations out of your government. Demand a legitimate government that represents you and your interests, not those of the wealthy and corporations.'' Emphatic ditto bw & fyi :
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/24243-chris-hedges-the-rules-of-revolt ;
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/22548-henry-giroux-beyond-neoliberal-miseducation & ...
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/24294-thomas-piketty-and-elizabeth-warren-discuss-why-the-rich-get-richer-and-the-rest-get-shafted [Video, 47:47]
per ardua ad astra ...
"As universities turn toward corporate management models, they increasingly use and exploit cheap faculty labor while expanding the ranks of their managerial class. Modeled after a savage neoliberal value system in which wealth and power are redistributed upward, a market-oriented class of managers largely has taken over the governing structures of most institutions of higher education in the United States."
"Political, moral and social indifference is the result, in part, of a public that is increasingly constituted within an educational landscape that reduces thinking to a burden and celebrates civic illiteracy as foundational for negotiating a society in which moral disengagement and political corruption go hand in hand."
"Right-wing appeals to austerity provide the rationale for slash-and-burn policies intended to deprive government-financed social and educational programs of the funds needed to enable them to work, if not survive."
Great quotes from the Giroux piece. Thankfully, there are some people out there who get it.
''As the latest stage of predatory capitalism, neoliberalism is part of a broader economic and political project of restoring class power and consolidating the rapid concentration of capital, particularly financial capital. As a political project, it includes “the deregulation of finance, privatization of public services, elimination and curtailment of social welfare programs, open attacks on unions, and routine violations of labor laws”. As an ideology, it casts all dimensions of life in terms of market rationality, construes profit-making as the arbiter and essence of democracy, consuming as the only operable form of citizenship, and upholds the irrational belief that the market can both solve all problems and serve as a model for structuring all social relations.'' from ...
It is going to be up to the youth bw because our generation and the one before us have dropped the ball.
at spes non fracta ~*~
"The plight of youth as disposable populations is evident in the fact that millions of them in countries such as England, Greece, and the United States have been unemployed and denied long term benefits."
"Students, in particular, found themselves in a world in which unrealized aspirations have been replaced by dashed hopes and a world of onerous debt."
"Youth in various countries need to cultivate a radical imagination capable of providing alternatives to capitalism that will offer a challenge not only to neoliberalism and its destructive austerity policies, but also a vision that speaks to people’s needs for a radical democracy, one that is capable of convincing diverse elements of a broader public that change is possible, and that existing systems of globalization and casino capitalism can be overcome."
Giroux is hopeful that the youth of today can formulate a meaningful collective plan to overcome the obstacles that face them. I hope he's right.
And:
"Proof Young Americans Are Still Hurting From The Recession"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/multigenerational-homes-pew_n_5594440.html?utm_hp_ref=college&ir=College
"The number of Americans living in multi-generational households has doubled since 1980."
"Youth in various countries need to cultivate a radical imagination"
Yes. The key to everything.
Very slow going here in America due to decades of brainwashing re: Horatio Alger myth, consumerism, etc. But, we can hope.
I think the pledge of allegiance is an interesting aspect of American schooling.
All the students standing up and reciting and oath at the beginning of each day.
Talk about conditioning...
My interests have never once been expressed through the forum we call government. Everyone Ive ever voted for lost. I am clearly not represented.
Your government is controlled by corporations. Get that through your head.
I agree with you. My above statement agrees with your position. I am not represented currently, so something must change.
Start with demanding the end of corporatism. Get corporations out of our government so that the government can get back to promoting the general welfare of the people instead.
It's easy to confuse this. It's easy to think that the government is the problem, but in fact, if you look closely it is the government controlled by corporations that is the problem. This is a very important distinction. If we rid ourselves of the government then all we'll have left are corporations in power. Things would be even worse. So, end this libertarian dreamstate and be realistic. The government is the answer, at least it can be, if left to govern, truly govern, with the influence of corporations removed.
I would like all money out of government. The government cares and deals with way to much about money. Government is about the arbitration of disputes between citizens and resolution of said problems for the betterment of society. It is not about providing anyone with any amount of wealth.
I am NOT a libertarian. I do not want arbitrary more or less government. I want BETTER government, whatever that means.
Better government is government where corporations are not in control and where the welfare of all of the people is the priority, not just the wealthy and corporations, the way it is, sadly, today.
True - corp(se)oRATion purpose ( one anyway ) = keep em dumb and hungry as this keeps wages low and keeps the volume of volunteers for our ( as in corp(se)oRAT ) armies ( as a temporary way out ) high.
True - plus healthy practices in ALL things - would be good governing.
Education is key - educating the population that is. So saying - an example of needed education of healthy possibilities ( please disregard the talk about continuing use of fossil fuels - and the rest of the program is pretty good ) : Hydrogen; Nature's Fuel - YouTube
Seeing what can be done and is even being done in a small way ( so far ) makes the possibilities for expansion of use pretty gosh darn obvious = universal applications across all industry.
Right. If we could just get corporations out of government we'd quickly see our education system improve on all fronts. Kids might learn about economics and the environment in a truthful way. But so long as corporate interests rule the day, the truth is mired in a murky swamp of greed and exploitation.
Better government is not no government. Anarchism=libertarianism.
I prefer libertarian socialism.
"Libertarian socialism (sometimes called social anarchism, left-libertarianism and socialist libertarianism) is a group of political philosophies that promote a non-hierarchical, non-bureaucratic society without private property in the means of production. Libertarian socialists believe in converting present-day private productive property into common, while retaining respect for personal property, based on occupancy and use. Libertarian socialism is opposed to coercive forms of social organization. It promotes free association in place of government and opposes the social relations of capitalism, such as wage labor. The term libertarian socialism is used by some socialists to differentiate their philosophy from state socialism, and by some as a synonym for anarchism."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
Libertarianism is all about private property and corporate tyranny. Anarchy is actually the opposite of that.
And, somewhere in these threads I saw DKA explain this all to you very well.
There is no government like no government.
Of course Reich is a hard core Democrat who always votes are you also beginning to realize that voting Democratic is an essential part of addressing wealth inequality?
No. Not at all. I voted for Jill Stein. I will continue to vote left of the Democrats if I have the opportunity to do so. Have a nice day.
https://twitter.com/CheriHonkala/status/443186807404904448/photo/1
Keep up your commendable work, following television personalities is the path to hell.
Nice, and here's a link to "The Green New Deal" Platform:
http://www.jillstein.org/summary_green_new_deal
It provides a nice way forward for a nation that has lost it's way on so many levels.
I saw Jill in the debates, I thought she was well below what I needed to see in a Presdent. Voters like you gave us GW Bush and the Iraq War, hope you're happy with your choicies, I do defend you're right to choose no matter how foolish they are or harmful to the country.
You can't see the emergency we're in can you?
From today's (April 30, 2014) New York Times:
"Nearly Half of New Yorkers Are Struggling to Get By, Study Finds" by Sam Roberts
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/30/nyregion/nearly-half-of-new-yorkers-are-struggling-to-get-by-study-finds.html
"New York City’s share of poor people appears to have plateaued since the recession, at 21.4 percent, with more people working in 2012 than the year before, but at lower wages, according to a new city study."
"But under a broader definition of poverty that the city applies, the picture remains grim for a far larger number of New Yorkers."
"As in 2011, 46 percent, or nearly half of New Yorkers, were making less than 150 percent of the poverty threshold, a figure that describes people who are struggling to get by."
"Fully 17 percent of families with a full-time worker lived in poverty, and even among families with two full-time workers, the rate was 5.2 percent."
"the most striking detail remained the 46 percent at or near poverty" !!!
46 percent at or near poverty in NYC. Outrageous and people like you want the status quo. What a joke.
Look I would love to get the money out of politics i would love for people to not do what is done for the money, I hate that people in office can't upset rich folks too much if they want the money to run, I want public funding of elections, check my profile it's been there a long time, but I am not willing to give over every public office to the GOP who are more than willing to take the money whose voters believe that is how it should be, because nothing will ever get better that way, only worse and the power of money will become ever more entrenched.
How exactly do you think helping the GOP win the Senate in 2014 will help these things? How do you think raising MW to $10.10 will hurt? Things are way past hoping and waiting for perfect, the GOP must be defeated NOW, before it is entirely too late...you quote Riech without understanding that he is in the fight not on the sidelines casting stones
The Democrats must be pulled to the left. It is imperative. We need a strong left to get these idiots to start standing up for something. If libertarians and the Tea Party are calling for things like "end the Education Department," for example, then we need a left calling for "free education for all to the university level." Screw it. I'm not supporting the Dems who have not supported me or the 46% of New Yorkers living in poverty. I'm supporting those to the left of them.
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Not only does it make sense, it's the job of the Democrats to counter Republican and libertarian conservatism and fascism. They need to do a much better job of it. They are failing us miserably as things stand right now.
True - and still:
https://occupywallst.org/forum/flame-wars-bad-blood-such-a-waste-of-time-talent-a/
LOL, I was just answering boxes here. Nice post, DKA, but sometimes people have to defend themselves and their positions.
Defend the facts of good and ill - YES a MUST
On an aside - progressives and conservatives are both being played off of each-other as suckers.
Consider being conservative does not necessitate being anti progressive - consider - there is nothing wrong with being conservative ( cautious ) when going forward ( progressing ) - it is not and never has been antithema ( spelling likely wrong - but I think you all get it ). Also conservative does not mean a halt to all forward ( new ) movement - it is and has always been meant to be cautious in going forward - to look at the details ( all of em ) and look for possibility of oversight ( non consideration ) of all possible hazards - while being progressive is not and never has been meant to be stomping the accelerator to the floor and blindly racing forward. Both - conservatism & Progressiveness are supposed to be with foresight/planning review/study.
Those who want the control ( and currently have it ) - want us at each-others throats - we do not have to go there - "WE" can be complimentary.
I laugh at myself all the time ( crazy bastard that I am - sorry mom - no offense intended - I know you and dad were legally married ) - so that is cool. Helps to keep it real.
Also - "when someone is called names, like "republican" and "libertarian," who is the farthest thing from those things, they will and must defend themselves."
AGREE and so my attempt to once again get past the crap.
I want people to take a moment and recognize the fact that none of our best interests for ALL are being addressed - and it is this targeted and successful attack/division on meaningless differences that is screwing us - ALL - while the chess playing assholes behind the curtain are doing what they want "in" oposition to ALL of our best interests.
To the site sensor - no need to have removed the comment from the Judas Goat - doing such - while leaving my comment in place - is - just - confusing to those looking in.
BTW - in case U were wondering - this comment and my view of U has nothing to do with what I have been saying about conservatives and progressives - nope - just a sad but true commentary on U.
EDIT -> U pathetic child and your equally sad followers.
After all this time - do you really think that I care about your down votes? Bring it on Judas Goat.
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B-dub Ummmm was the laughter due to my note to the site about the capital ( type ) hang-up/fetish or perhaps it was more general as to my post's rant? {:-])
Both. As I typed LOL I thought of the caps lock business and just in general, your rant is fine, :). Not much to disagree with there, except to say that when someone is called names, like "republican" and "libertarian," who is the farthest thing from those things, they will and must defend themselves.
Don't be foolish it makes no sense at all, the effective way to accomplish this is to be active in the primaries, these people do not promote this, they are filled with love of thier own egos, people so blinded by thier own perfection that they can't even see that the house is on fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g42Xg-mAkGg
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I see where OWS is thinking about running people and splitting vote, thus helping more GOP gain more power, I will of course become a whole hearted oppenent of OWS should they do that just as I spit on Nader's name whenever he is mentioned.
These ego driven babies gave us Bush and failed to support Gore the most envirmentally friendly predsident we never had when we really needed one, now the world is pretty much doomed and OWS talks of doing it all over again to help the next Bush get in office, this shit is real and these people are killing us more so than any R, yeah I hear that being at war and doing stuff can be "hard" like supporting people that are not perfect, if OWS doesn't want to do hard stuff like supporting inperfect Ds then they won't get much done.
So OWS is 'the enemy' now, is it ?! Being an Arizona Dem may be a lonely business but you need to get out more dude !! On your prescription, The 99% should write the Neoliberal Corporate Bankster Co-opted, Corrupted and Controlled, Dem-Pols-On-The-Hill a blank cheque in blind faith and exhortation !!!
OWS is about trying to inform, inspire, mobilise & organise The 99% as ... We Are Our Only Hope ~*~
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/23423-the-working-class-mini-revolts-of-the-twenty-first-century + also see :
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/23419-may-day-while-the-world-celebrates-workers-the-us-celebrates-loyalty-and-law &
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/23395-on-the-news-with-thom-hartmann-the-super-rich-dont-make-money-by-hard-work-and-more !!!
dum spiro, spero ...
" I will of course become a whole hearted oppenent of OWS should they do that"
The movement does not people like this, forget about them for they will never lead to actions of change, only harm.
any who assit the GOP in gaining power, like yourself and flip are the enemy, if OWS begins to help the GOP win they too will become the enemy, I get it that you may just be a blind fool that knows nothiong of how evil the GOP is, but it matters not your actions make you the enemy, you help the GOP win
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The only thing you fkn ''nailed'' was your reactionary fat ass - to the wall of deep, seated conservatism !!!
ad iudicium ...
shadz and flip are exactly what the 1% depend on to keep them in power, ego driven childern,,,
Keep in mind when the Tea Party runs they run as GOP, they don't split votes in elections like Nader did they vote for the R, so when you vote for Jill you are doing just as the 1% hopes you will, keep the left devided so the right can rule.
So you feel that the actions of GW Bush including the Iraq War are just nessceray costs in "pulling the Democrats left", I dfisagree I do not believe we can afford to have the GOP setting policy while we wait for the Democrats to meet our standard of leftness.
No, frf. GW Bush and the Iraq War happened because the Democrats were not pulled far enough to the left in the first place. They voted for it, too, along with the Republicans, remember?
Yep - if only for fear of not representing the public's anger - did they vote for war/repurcussions - damn f'n unprincipled people.
Think of our politics as having a linear spectrum from left to right. Both the Republicans and the Democrats have been moving to the right. This is the absolute huge and vital emergency facing the American people, whether they know it or not.
The Republicans are now on the far right, near the libertarians who are the farthest right, and the Democrats are somewhere near the middle of the spectrum. This is not a good way to run a country. The voters do not have good options on the left, where their interests are met. This is a huge freaking problem. So, I will fight for the positions of the far left because that is where I believe the 99% are helped the most.
Think of it this way - left right - progressive conservative - neither is to the detriment of health - they are just handily played off of each other as an easy to make division/battleground - in the meantime issues = the good of & the bad of - get no attention - just a polarized presentation to the public = public distraction in fights ( meaningless ) of orientation and total loss of directing thought to the issue (s) and their benefits or defects.
The problem is people get confused when it's really simple the GOP fight to make rich people richer if you support that, support them if not then oppose them and work to keep the GOP from power. It really is that simple if people would simply tell the truth we could fix this.
Think of an election as a contest where there is one winner, that winner gets to influence public policy, now imagine a world where public policy matters.
You could of course work within the primaries to push the Ds to left as the Tea Party does to push the Rs right, but that might not fullfill your ego driven goals, that would just change America.
There are plenty of people and groups that have been trying to do just that to no avail for the past 40 years. If you want to post on the Occupy forum then you should have some basic understanding of what Occupy is all about. Occupy is seeking much bigger watershed change, a change to the nation's ethos and a change to the economic system that overrides all political decisions in the first place.
You can attempt to rewirte history all you want to, the only thing that matters is did you do ALL you could to keep Bush from office? If not you are to blame for the Iraq War just as much as he is.
The truth is so clear now you, flip shadz and others like you are the only hope the 1% have left, they hope that you can split the vote and keep the GOP in power, because if people learn the truth the GOP will lose and so will the 1%.
You really don't get it do you? The Republicans have the Tea Party, and the Democrats have nothing to counter it.
It is very foolish to fight the hard right from a middling position. Very foolish. It's killing this country.
Exactly - Also - due to the fact that the "most openly" operating corp(se)oRAT assholes are in the party designated as republican - sorry all innocent conservatives - BUT - "IT IS WHAT IT IS"
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and because of Nader and the 200 election the far left cannot be supported or trusted not to run in the general, the Tea Party may push far right people in the primaries but never run on their own and split the vote as Nader did. Elizabeth Warren works from the left, I wouldn't say far left, but within the party to keep the GOP from taking over, if more would follow her example we could get a lot more done.
You don't get it, you split the vote and put the GOP in power.
OWS is about bringing attention to wealth inequality and the power of money, the GOP push policies that make both of these things worst on a very consistent basis, anyone wishing to have a real impact on crerating change will do all they can to keep the GOP from power. Your vote splitting efforts help the GOP win power. We must stand together on election day or the 1% will win.
How about providing a candidate that the left can believe in? A candidate who will truly stand for the interests of the 99%, the masses of people who toil everyday in an effort to merely survive? How about that? Then we won't need to split the vote.
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I see that you still haven't lost your offensive edge !!! An ongoing Neocon Coup d'Etat gave the world The Illegal Iraq War and all that followed it & t'was not by accident either !! How'd Hitlary be much different ?!
spero meliora ...
I see you haven't lost your blind support of the GOP
Uh Oh !!! Loon Alert Again !! Are you still too trapped in your 'D & R Binary' to see past your nose ?!
http://www.popularresistance.org/rally-to-raise-minimum-wage-cut-corporate-tax-breaks/ and -
http://www.popularresistance.org/40-of-us-workers-now-earn-less-than-1968-minimum-wage/ .
Again 'How'd Hitlary be much different'' .. at home or abroad ? You get that she's a total 1%er right ?
ad iudicium ...
you are too in love with the smell of your own waste to see any of the harm done by cons, but you are keen as hell on that done by libs, you are a lying asshole plain and simple...
You get that The Dem Party Machine in Congress is 'conservative'' by any known political standards, right ?!!! It doesn't even have room for people like Cynthia McKinney or Dennis Kucinich these days !! So, are you just a dyed-in-the-wool, loyal Democratic Party voter or another DNC operative here too ?!
Trust me frf - you really need to read this excellent article & try to see past 'The Binary' for The US 99%.
fiat lux ...
I am a die in wool hater of the GOP, I believe America can no longer sit around and allow the GOP to rule, I believe those who give a damn about the country more so than thier own egos are doing all they can to keep the GOP from office and most oif all I believe people like you help to elect the GOP by splitting votes in order to build your own importance, like Nader did in 2000.
What do you think OWS was all about factsy ?!!! Just keeping the GOP out ?!! OR - was it always way bigger and deeper than that, as Dems are totally co-opted & controlled by Corporations & Banksters ?!
''Public opinion polls regularly reflect left/right concurrence. From 70 to 80 percent of the people support a restoration of the minimum wage to reflect the erosions of inflation. Higher percentages want the "too big to fail" big banks to be broken up. Even higher numbers object to the non-prosecution of corporate crooks, especially those responsible for the Wall Street crash of 2008-2009 that drove the economy into a severe recession, cost savers trillions of dollars and led to a huge taxpayer bailout.
''Called crony capitalism by the right and corporate welfare by the left, there is a rising tide of revulsion against the rich and powerful freeloading on the backs of ordinary taxpayers.''
Cantankerous as ever facsty, there's still no need to be offensive unless my language warrants it right ?
ne quid nimis ...
OWS was about attacking the wealth inequality, on election day the only way to do that is to keep the GOP from power, if you would like to engage in a real disscussion on how wealth inequality at the voting booth I am more than happy to do so, but I have tried to get you to many times and I know you will not. Your only purpose is to infalate your own importance you care nothing for creating real change.
You parDisan imbecile !!! So OWS, flip and I are potentially ''the enemy'' here are we ?!! I'll discuss just about anything and try to learn what I can from any sane person but can I consider you that after this :
Try to get a fkn grip there factsy & watch this video in its entirety but minutes 23 - 28 in particular pls :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSp13JgajCo and an alternate link ..
http://rt.com/shows/big-picture/156576-us-supreme-court-corporations/
Forget me, you oaf ! I'm just a vowel, four consonants and one number twice !! Listen to what Thom Hartmann, Mike Papantonio, Brad Friedman & the others there have to say in the great video above.
With reference to ''wealth inequality'', try to see Bill Moyers talking to Paul Krugman about Thomas Piketty's seminal new book - ''Capital - In the 21st Century'' :
ad iudicium ...
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If and when you reference me, on an open forum - then I get to and will say what I want and where I want to say it !!! You seem to think it is ok to come looking for me and trying to provoke me & guess what ?!! It worked - lololol ! You are a graceless oaf and if you can .. you should now come back and try to finish what you started, amongst other places - here :
spero meliora ...
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Such hysteria and darkness only really hexes your own karma but IF you had any clue about 'Zen', you'd get that and anyone else would be banned or censured for your poisonously offensive drivel !!!
I did not say anything about not ''pestering'' you and you are the one doing the ''pestering'' lolol !!
Now you've bitten off more than you can chew and are regurgitating your own crap - mainly because your head is so far up your ass these days ... that talking shit is an anatomical inevitability !
You had better start trying to work out wtf is important here on this 99% OWS forum. Eg. :
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/23434-the-neoliberal-turn-in-american-health-care & also see :
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/23395-on-the-news-with-thom-hartmann-the-super-rich-dont-make-money-by-hard-work-and-more
ad iudicium ...
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Recovering Republican Voter that you are, your now apparent conversion to 'liberalism', is still hugely tinged with your reactionary, conservative past - irrespective of your pseudo-progressive affectations !!!
You're ''pretty sure'' of sweet fuk all and I am not ''barely concealed'' fool, as anyone who knows me well and is politically acquainted with me, knows me as 'shadz' & you calling me a - ''libertarian repelican'' or ''koch whore'' is really very funny to those who know me - as they tell me by 'personal message' on this forum, as well as on the telephone and by texts and e-mails !!
It is so easy to see how and why you think that someone can't quote Chomsky and Buchanan, when it comes to The 99% because you are so very trapped in your shizoid binary not to mention, your bi-polar and disordered mind !
Read that IF you dare. I've got to go and get on with my day here Dog but you know me - I'll be back ;-)
vale ...
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Were you in Vietnam ZenDork ?! Did 'Victor Charlie' leave you with nightmares ?!! 'Cause you have got a touch of the reactionary / racist in you it seems ... so I was wondering how and why and is that why you couldn't relate to the Burlington Bus Strike or other recent 99% actions in Vermont ?!!!
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/23280-why-passengers-cheered-a-vermont-bus-strike ;
http://truth-out.org/news/item/22510-vermont-bus-drivers-striking-over-dangerous-conditions &
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/23424-in-spite-of-corporate-lobbyists-vermont-residents-organize-to-raise-the-wage
In any case, calling me a ''libertarian liar and koch whore'' has no basis in fact but is totally from the fictions of your paranoid and self-hating psychosis !!! This entire thread .. amongst quite a few now - speaks for itself really !! Maybe it's time to grow a pair and come and finish what you started here :
Or you can even address the Ralph Nader piece above or you could just choose to STFU if you want !
bonitas non est pessimis esse meliorum ...
(it is not goodness to be better than the worst)
and your evidence for that assertion - let's see - 8 yrs of Clinton - inequality increases - 6 yrs of Obama - inequality increases. it seems that while facts may be fun you don't really like them
Oh and your Facts are wrong about the Clinton years, avg, wages increased for the first time under Clinton.
My evidence is the years that Riech worked in the Clinton admin and the FACT that he supports Ds publicly all the time, I see you do have troble with FACTS, not surprising seeing how you are just a hack for the GOP
and the FACT that - 8 yrs of Clinton - inequality increases - 6 yrs of Obama - inequality increases. - can you address that or is it too painful for you
My comment referrs to the FACT that Riech is a "D" how does your questions affect that FACT? you are the one expericing too much pain when faced with truth, the truth that the Ds are the only sane choice for those wishing to have a real impact on wealth inequality, but you would rather see the GOP take over the Senate so they can get rid of the death tax...
you should check on those 8 years of Clinton and i suppose you prefer the 8 of Reaganand 12 of Bush? You are either an idoit or a GOP supporter simple truth.
reagan was for sure a shit but do you remember nafta? the only legislation Clinton really fought for - with secrecy and arm twisting. and how about the sanctions of Iraq - 500,000 dead children. how about the bombing of Kosovo - remember that? how about the bombing of sudan - down the memory hole. here you have noam on Clinton -
" Actually, al-Qaeda, if you look back, was barely mentioned in U.S. intelligence reports until 1998. Clinton put it on the map. Clinton’s bombing of Sudan and Afghanistan in 1998 effectively created al-Qaeda, both as a known entity in the intelligence world and also in the Muslim world. It was an enormous boost for them. It also put bin Laden on the map. Before that, he was regarded as a kind of minor financier of some kind. But that created him as a major symbol, it led to an increase in recruitment, financing and general support for al-Qaeda-style networks, and it also tightened relations between bin Laden and the Taliban, which had been quite hostile before but they became close after the bombing.
The bombing of Sudan, in particular, infuriated people throughout the Arab world. It’s another one of those things that didn’t happen because we did it. The Clinton administration knew perfectly well that the target was the major producer of pharmaceutical and veterinary supplies for a poor African country. They may have believed it was producing chemical weapons or maybe not–that’s what people discuss–but it doesn’t matter. They knew they were bombing a core part of the pharmaceutical industry. Of course, that’s going to have devastating effects. It was known instantly. We don’t know how much, because, again, we don’t investigate or care about the results of our crimes, which didn’t exist. But the few credible estimates that are available from the German ambassador–in a paper published in the ultra-left Harvard International Review–and another in the Boston Globe by the regional director of the Near East Foundation, who had field experience in Sudan–both estimate several tens of thousands of deaths, which is plausible, maybe more, maybe less...............................and just a bit more from my boy noam -
"Summarizing, the new vision is that in the international economy, we will no longer be satisfied by a "level playing field" for US corporations, but will construct a proper tilt by violating free trade rules even more thoroughly than before. And with the deterrent gone, we will intervene where and how we choose, though only when there is something in it for us. The technical term for this stance is "the Politics of Meaning," to which the Clintons are said to be sincerely devoted.
Actually, there is nothing new in the new vision, apart from tactical adjustments reflecting new realities of global power. The mood of despair in the Third World is easy to understand, quite apart from the catastrophe of global capitalism that has ravaged the traditional colonies. It is captured by a leading Brazilian theologian, Cardinal Paulo Evaristo Arns of Sao Paulo, Brazil, who observes that throughout the Third World "there is hatred and fear: When will they decide to invade us," and on what pretext? And by Egypt's leading newspaper, the quasi-governmental Al-Ahram, which describes the new world order as "codified international piracy."
Another component of the new vision was leaked to the press as its basic features were being presented in public: a draft report on government secrecy sent to the National Security Council by Clinton's Information Security Oversight Office. The report recommends that classified documents be held for longer than was the practice during the Cold War, apart from the rule of the Reaganite reactionaries, whose commitment to state power and secrecy went far beyond the norm. Their 1982 decision to keep "virtually all [secret government] documents classifed indefinitely" is to be relaxed, AP reported, with restrictions of only up to 40 years, as compared to Nixon's "hold period" of 30 years and Carter's of 20 years. The Clinton task force also recommended slow and extremely costly document-by-document review instead of declassification en masse, and called for "balancing public interest and national security concerns," as determined by "agency officials." The procedure for automatic declassification of certain top secret documents, set at 10 years by Nixon and 6 by Carter, is should be extended to 15 years, the task force proposed.12
Is there anywhere in this load of crap do you try to make the point that Reich is not a D? of course not you igone what i said to cast a bunch of gabbage at the Ds because tearing down the Ds is the only way you know to puff your ego, you doon't give a damn that Nader put Bush in the White house and gave us the Iraq War, the daed people don't matter to you as long as you got your soapbox.
still can't respond to this simple question - "and your evidence for that assertion - let's see - 8 yrs of Clinton - inequality increases - 6 yrs of Obama - inequality increases. it seems that while facts may be fun you don't really like them" - what a shock! and as to dead Iraqis i can only assume that the dead from democratic administrations don't count - I give you ms Albright - Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.
--60 Minutes (5/12/96)
You replied to my pointing out the fact the Riech was a D. Why exactky should i be compled to answer YOUR question? Who ARE you?
I was just pointing out An Inconventant Fact you want to run away from the issue at hand by throwing smoke in the air.
once again - this is what you wrote -"Of course Reich is a hard core Democrat who always votes are you also beginning to realize that voting Democratic is an essential part of addressing wealth inequality?" - the fact that riech is a d is not in question. it may be the one you want to pose but it is not the one I asked after you wrote that little piece of silliness. I asked you for evidence of your assertion "that voting democrat is the way to address inequality." my question was about your evidence for that point since the simple fact is that inequality has risen in the 14 years of democratic administrations. - now how about this - yes reich is a democrat - your turn! I am pretty sure you will not answer the question since your whole points blows up - there is no answer you can give except to say that the dems are not as bad as the gop in that regard. I agree here but that is not good enough for me. I guess it is for you!
you may be too embrassed to outright declare your love for the GOP, but your actions to split the vote keep them in power so they love you back no doubt
i do not expect you to say -"i was wrong - or i misspoke" or anything of the sort but can you just say that " i refuse to try to counter your point" - can you say that instead of going off on tangents. that would be the adult way of handling this situation. as to the rest of it - you seem to think that there are 3 kinds of political people in this country - gop supporters - dem supporters and the rest are all working for the gop even though they may not know it. history shows something quite different - have you read any?
Counter this point if you would like, I content that if someone doesn't get more votes than the GOP candidate then the GOP wins, would you like to counter that point?
oh god are you a sad sack. can you simply say - " I have no evidence" and we can end this nonsense. and I will answer your question when you answer mine - fair enough??
If you are so blind that you cannot see the pure evil that is the GOP then I hope no one follows you down that dead end street, because that path just leaves the 1% in power.
You are an idoit playing the exact game the GOP wants you to.
no one is arguing that the gop is good - but you seem to think that - "that voting democrat is the way to address inequality." - I disagree and was looking for you to show me why you think that. I am not surprised that you cannot do it only at your childish behavior
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You are ridiculous and boring. Say all you want but end the personal attacks.
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LeoYo's posts are often in service to the GOP, as are many who post here, either by intend, which can be seen with a bit of discussion or in very rare occasions honest misunderstanding of reality in both cases they serve to empower the powerful
is it possible that you really don't know what facts are?
I know that it is a FACT that in almost every election if the D don't win the R does, i know for a FACT that the R's work for the rich, those that hurt Ds help Rs those that attack the left and split the vote like the taitor Nader are great friends to the GOP and help to keep them in power, how are you on the FACTS
and what about the FACT that no matter which party gets elected the rich get richer and the poor get poorer - your solution to that is to keep voting for your beloved dems. and hoping they will stop taking hedge fund money and putting people like larry summers and the goldman boys into positions of power
you are a idoit supporter of the 1%, you should take five minutes and learn a bit of history, but in simple terms if you think raising the minmun wage is good you should elect people who support it and get your head out of yopur butt and DO something to change things, you just want to feed your ego...
figures - the guy with facts in his id cannot be bothered with the facts - you offer opinions with nothing to back it up and childish insults - can you try to respond to what I wrote- please - oh, you have no response except insults - then go somewhere else. you don't belong here
As I recall the "fact" in question was that people were quoting Riech a known D, while they did not want to acknowlege that painful fact. You contine to have a problem with the fact that Riech is a D, while I find it fun.
the fact that riech is a d is not in question. the problem here for you (in case you don't realize it) is that there is a written record of the discussion so I will present it. here is the question on the table. I will spell it out since I am no longer confident that you can follow a simple point counterpoint - your assertion in question is that voting democrat is the way to address inequality. my question was about your evidence for that point since the simple fact is that inequality has risen in the 14 years of democratic administrations. you said - [-] 1 points by factsrfun (10663) from Phoenix, AZ 3 days ago
Of course Reich is a hard core Democrat who always votes are you also beginning to realize that voting Democratic is an essential part of addressing wealth inequality?
↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink - I respond by asking you to defend your assertion since inequality has risen during the 8 years of Clinton and 6 years of Obama - ouch!
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[-] 1 points by factsrfun (10727) from Phoenix, AZ 1 hour ago
Of course Reich is a hard core Democrat who always votes are you also beginning to realize that voting Democratic is an essential part of addressing wealth inequality?
↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink
[-] 2 points by flip (5194) 25 minutes ago
and your evidence for that assertion - let's see - 8 yrs of Clinton - inequality increases - 6 yrs of Obama - inequality increases. it seems that while facts may be fun you don't really like them
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does that have anything to do with inequality, Clinton, Obama and the no fact boy
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there is another way to look at why things are different in Vermont. seems to me that it is the bottom up organizing not the dems in the legislature that is responsible. and what about the Vermont progressive party?? ..................................here is a political party, founded in 1999, which really does not take any corporate funds and refuses to discuss any potential health care solution but a single-payer, not-for-profit system. Here is an anti-corporate party that seeks legislation to protect small business. Here is a party that demands workers be paid a living wage. Here is a party that calls for state investment in renewable energy. Here is a party that condemns the “two brand-name parties” because they act in concert to “serve the same corporate interests” by “taking the most important issues off the table and preventing discussion of issues important to most Vermonters: health care for all, property tax reform, energy independence.” The progressive candidates, one of whom is making a credible run for governor, seek to represent the interests of the working class.
What a novel idea.
“A lot of us do not believe that working within the Democratic Party is possible,” Zuckerman, who has served 12 years in the Vermont House, told me one evening from his farm in Burlington. “On a national scale the [Democratic] party is entrenched in the same money needs as the Republicans. This is not necessarily an individual fault, but it is the reality of politics today. They can’t change. I know many, many good small-‘p’ progressive or liberal Democrats whose philosophy is very similar to mine. They do believe they can change the party from within, but I think the institutional need for hundreds of millions of dollars to compete on the national stage makes it impossible for them to turn back into a populist party.”
The rise of the Vermont Progressive Party, which has six members in the 150-member Vermont House, is another indication that Vermont, which has battled back everything from Wal-Mart to urban sprawl to billboards, may be one of the few sane states left in the nation. And the political lessons are important. If progressives want to regain political influence, we have to, like these Vermonters, think local. The corporations, through their network of oily lobbyists and infusions of cash, have a lock on most of the huge national and state offices, including, sadly, the seats in the Vermont state Senate. But Vermont now has the nation’s only independent, socialist senator, Bernie Sanders. Sanders got there by showing Vermonters that a progressive mayor could efficiently run the city of Burlington. Our hope lies in first capturing seats on city councils and town boards. Our hope lies in building a party from the bottom up. We will have to be patient. It will take time. But it might work. And that is why, in some ways, the campaign for Vermont governor, which pits the progressive candidate Anthony Pollina, a community organizer, against Democrat Gaye Symington and three-term Republican incumbent Gov. Jim Douglas, is one of the most important races in the country.....................................................................................................................................................................
“If we can show people how to do it, then other people around the country, who are grasping for real change, even if they vote for Barack Obama, will see how to do it,” the 36-year-old Zuckerman said. “The idea will catch fire quickly. The tinder is out there. It is dry and ready to burn. People only need an example. We have an opportunity this year to become a nationwide presence with Anthony’s campaign.”
Zuckerman, like many others in the party, supports Obama for the presidency. He does not believe Obama will make major progressive changes, but he argues that it is always better to have a Democrat in the White House. “He at least inspires people, especially young people, to believe in the institution, that the institution can do good,” Zuckerman said. “This is positive for the country. Ultimately, Democrats are better than Republicans. If we have a generational shift, as [there was] with Reagan, this is a net positive. Is Barack Obama a great lefty populist? No. He is not much farther to the left than Hillary, to be honest.” “When a Democrat is in power, you can say, here are the people who said they were going to do great things,” Zuckerman said. “You can say, where are the results? You can give them a threat from the left. With the Republicans in power, all the Democrats have to be is better than the Republicans. Everyone is so afraid of the Republicans. They say we can’t afford to vote for anyone but a Democrat. I’d rather have Democrats in power so we can challenge them to be better.”
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nice - we agree - but one small detail - you did not read the whole comment - like this part - “A lot of us do not believe that working within the Democratic Party is possible,” Zuckerman, who has served 12 years in the Vermont House, told me one evening from his farm in Burlington. “On a national scale the [Democratic] party is entrenched in the same money needs as the Republicans.
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Nice moniker, shame about the message ;-) Still plugging Hitlary Clinton as a fundamental solution to The 99%'s woes of Neoliberal Austerity and Neocon Imperial Adventurism ?!!! Good to see you around these parts anyway !! It's been hand to hand combat lately & The DNC Faction need some help ! + fyi :
''With the rapid concentration of wealth in a few well-manicured hands and the right-wing U.S. Supreme Court declaring money to be speech, the American surge toward oligarchy has gained what looks like an unstoppable momentum.
''While the elite of the elites get richer and richer and, therefore, can afford to exercise more and more influence over elections, another new study shows that nearly “one-third of American households — 38 million of them — are living a paycheck-to-paycheck existence.” And a new Gallup poll shows an increasing number of households teetering on the brink of “hardship” due to a lack of savings.
''This rise in economic insecurity reinforces the plutocracy’s political strength by diminishing ability of non-plutocrats to exercise power or force their policy preferences through the machinery. Most Americans simply cannot afford to lobby lawmakers, attend rulemaking meetings or hire people away from agencies to guide them through the system.
''With millionaires increasingly taking over Congress, the representative part of America’s “representative democracy” is, like public service in regulatory agencies, all-too-often just a way station on the way to the plutocracy. And the laws it churns out are, sadly, little more than an insult to sausages.''
~
Hitlary of course is a creature of The 1% and a stooge of The 0.01% Parasites, Oligarchs and Plutocrats. Wall Street AND 'War Street' love her but ...
ad iudicium ...
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More self-referential bollocks, huh ?!!! Get over yourself already !! YAWN !
How about you better use your time by joining some of the good peeps of Burlington in a communitarian endeavour ?! Or are you too much of a misanthropic, loud-mouth & loner for that ?!! Go Get Out More !!!
So consider : ''In the aftermath, the "troublemakers wing" of the Vermont labor movement is growing. A citizens group that includes drivers, Vermonters United for Public Transportation, has started up, with a focus on both optimal working conditions for drivers and better transportation options for citizens. - The support committee has transformed itself into an ongoing Solidarity Committee and is planning a Labor Notes Troublemakers School to continue to build new leaders.'' from :
Or would you rather stay at home polishing your weapon ?!
fiat lux ...
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I did not 'cite' Goethe ZenDick - it was a real quote used by your friend and mine, LeoYo as the title of a now nearly two year old forum-post that made you wet your panties recently !!! You can create whatever the fuck you like !! I'll only batter you over the head with it later if it's more of your usual b-s these days !
vale ...
it is hard to believe but the dogboy continues to surprise with how disturbed and just plain dumb he is. HE has shown that philosophy is dead - wow - he is much more troubled than I thought. I think we should leave him alone - if he really has a weapon (which I doubt) you might drive him to some horrible rampage up there in vt. he is for sure unstable and provoking him can only lead to a bad end.
Chipmunk Armageddon & Squirrel Mass Murder in Vt. - if we 'provoke' him you mean ?!!! I do get you because : Guns + Bipolar = Bad Combination !! He's not into bows and arrows or crossbows as 'That Dog Don't Hunt' ... it's got guns & shoots 'em to kill things !
pax nunc ...
I really think he is a blowhard. if you showed up in Vermont I think he would run
The problem with ''a blowhard'' bully like him, is he'd bring a gun to a fist fight sooner than you'd take a handkerchief to a funeral. He also thinks that worker solidarity is a ''polarising issue'' btw. Also fyi, see :
Finally flip, what's up re. your 'points' number ? How come it doesn't change like for the rest of us here ?
fiat lux ...
another tough guy with a gun?? maybe but he could also be a little boy with a big problem - lots of people are brave at a distance. we will never know. as to my points - I have no idea. I don't pay attention to that but maybe I should. what do the points signify? the revenge of shooz you think?
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once again you make my point - I do not want to push you over the edge that you are obviously skating - so I would suggest to call me a few names and we let this go. go ahead - let it out - you will feel better - I hope
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I think we need to send a Rescue Party up your rectum !!! As dude you're sooo fkn full of yourself !! You're utterly lost whilst being missing in action but not maintaining radio-silence ! Start over dude.
verum ex absurdo ...
It looks as though the GOP hacks have pretty much taken over the forum from what I'm seeing, too bad people are such sheep....
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'Cause voting for Hitlary is the answer for The 99% ?! She'll be the next POTUS, ffs but OWS etc. MUST pressure her hard as she's a creature of the 1% !! Get real and go ba'aack to the drawing board factsy !!!
minima maxima sunt ...
How do you feel about the takeover of OWS by the ego driven "Green" mosters? It seems to have competly been removed from any disscussion, people do still from time to tie talk about wealth inequality but OWS as a movement has died much as Greens did choking on thier own egos.
''There are latent majorities on numerous issues that do not see the light of day because the corporatists' toadies -- the political leaders in Congress -- make sure there are no hearings, no floor debates or votes. Predictably, pollsters do not poll questions that are not on the table, such as long-time majority support for full Medicare for everybody, so the public is kept from having its voice reflected. By the same token, politicians, marinated in commercial campaign money, do not campaign on these convergences between the left and right.
''It is a neglected responsibility of the mainstream media to expand reporting on left/right concurrences, especially where they move into action around the country. It is our responsibility as citizens to more visibly surface these agreements into a new wave of political reform. Guess what? It starts with left/right conversations where we live and work. Not even corporatists can stop you from getting that train moving.'' from :
Consider : That just voting for the status quo binary 'lesser of two evils'' while only looking at the next election cycle only guarantees more of the same. You seem to be impervious to anything said or explained - but I persevere with the links that speak for themselves.
respice, adspice, prospice ...
You are so full of yourself, so you are the one that will wake the giant, meanwhile the GOP rule, cutting taxes for the rich and starting wars, while you work to split the vote and keep them in power, your ego is what is killing America.
Yet you competely ingore my question, how do you feel about the shift of OWS into third party non-exsistence?
Being amongst the Arizona Republicons has curdled your brain a bit factsy, me thinx !!! The ''GOP rule'' because Democraps think that aping them is the way to go !! Thus .. they leave 50% who don't vote and about 25% who are fkn nutters who've been imbibing MSM-BS all their lives ... whilst at the same taking their desperate voters for granted ! In future a 3rd Party has to be a way to go but for 2016, please see :
respice, adspice, prospice ...
Still splitting the vote and helping the GOP win I see, the Elizabeth Warren example offers a different path and one that doesn't help the GOP win.
Elizabeth Warren is a possible exception that actually proves the rule of the Dem-Party-Polls' Corporate Capture !!! What happened to Dennis Kucinich and to Cynthia McKinney again & where are they now ?!! Any thoughts about how to inform, inspire, mobilise and organise the ~50% of adults who do not vote ?!
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/23513-the-era-of-financialization & also try to now see ..
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/23486-chris-hedges-capitalism-not-government-is-the-problem .
fiat lux ...
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Don't ''vote repelican ever again'' ?! What - like you used to you mean ?!! WTF is that above .. other than yet another cathartic, self-exculpatory 'note to self' ?!!! Let me know where I 'lied' here, btw - u fkn clown.
respice, adspice, prospice ...
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99% Class Solidarity - seeing as though you ask .. AND to reply to your b-s for the standing record here, LoonDog & isn't it obvious even to you ?!!! WTF d'you mean ''wtf do you want'' .. when you can clearly see the b-s that I replied to ?!! Worra fkn schtoopid loon ! NB : Talk Shit ; Get Slapped, ok ?
ad iudicium ...
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Uh Oh !!! Loon Alert !! No more self-portraits or hocus-pocus please ! More relevantly, consider :
multum in parvo ...
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I'd say a past Repelican Voter, now advocating voting for Hitlary on an OWS forum counts as being The Definitive ''fukin shill'' !!! Keep on swinging, slugger !! Because you are only walking onto punches here !
veritas vos liberabit ...
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''Nimrod'' ?!!! ''The Hunter'' you mean ?!! Tho' you're more Elmer Fudd than 'Mighty Hunter' I think, so ... 'qwik - gwab it - it's a wabbit or gwab a swiwwel' !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhnMd1Jl7SA - Not Elmer but Elgar - and also fyi, consider :
http://www.popularresistance.org/story-of-hope-and-faith-government-doesnt-want-you-to-hear/ ~
Some advice for the upteenth time - watch your mouth & ''bloody violence'' is much more your forte' btw.
vale ...
as if we haven't met, I see you are working as hard as ever for the GOP
Damn factsy !!! I know how much more intelligent you are than that glib reply implies !! Is anyone who isn't a Democrap .. thus reduced to being a Republicon, in your 'zero-sum game ; binary construct' ?!
Come on factsy - this is OWS where we're supposed to try to think the unthinkable for The 99%, right ? Got any more videos ? Irrespective of what you think of me, I wish you well and on this important thread, append herewith, fyi - this excellent, deeply illuminating & thoroughly researched article/book synopsis :
Btw factsy, I addressed you in the previous reply like an old acquaintance & re. those links, any thorts ?
e tenebris, lux ...
your zero sight of the GOP tells all anyone needs to know about your true mission you GOP loving troll
Voting Dem is like wiping your ass factsy !!! Not really a subject for pleasant chit-chat after a dinner party but wtf is the option, right ?!! Of course voting for the Bat Shit Crazy Republicons is off the fkn scale for any reasonable 99%-centred people in The U$A ... but to just see The Corporate Bankster Controlled Democrap Party On-The-Hill .. as anything other than a tool and a voice of The Neoliberal, Neocon 1% is really a massive intellectual fail on your part & indicates a type of deep conservatism !
Democracy has got to engage the nearly 50% of people who don't vote and amount to more than turning out every 2-4 years for a bunch of bought and paid for & thoroughly co-opted Class Traitors - I and many millions believe. Shame on you & your basically conservative ass frf. You're unsure about facts & no fun.
respice, adspice, prospice ...
it is clear that OWS has become a festting pool of ego driven bullshit of the type that brought us Bush and the Iraq War, your efforts will no doubt bring us a GOP controlled Senate soon and more wealth for the wealthy and war for the rest.
Re. the Iraq War and the Bush presidency, just how come you don't blame it on the fact that G. Dubya Bush got in because of a massively gerrymandered vote and where Gore had more aggregate votes but Florida was run by Jeb Bush and lawyers from James Baker Associates intimidated Gore into folding in order to maintain the 'illusion of US democracy' ?! My reply above speaks for itself as does your inability to address yourself to it !! Your ever optimistic, blind belief in Dem Pols tho' despite the evidence of their totally treacherous behaviour .. is as ever baffling given people like Kucinich and McKinney were pushed out the party !!!
Please see Brad Friedman [ http://www.bradblog.com/ ] and Greg Palast [ http://www.gregpalast.com/ ] who have so much more but I suspect you'll continue to prefer to blame any & all non-Democrats in your mid-term-mania, as being a Dem in Arizona makes you the most raDical person for many miles around.
Happy May Day anyway [ https://occupywallst.org/forum/may-day-2014/ ] & don't be so cranky factsy !!
pax ...
Evey person every action has an affect Bush could have never started the Iraq War if Nader had whole heartly supported Gore in the election but instead Nader choose his ego.
Still fkng blaming Ralph Nader ?! What about over 6 years of Obomber and did you read what I said or what Prof. Dr. Michael Parenti wrote ?!! Of course not .. 'cause that might mean that you may have to reappraise what you think a li'l AND we can't possibly have that now - can we ?!!!
ad iudicium ...
seems to me that first of all that THINKING is not was this guy is capable of doing! gore won florida - no? i have pointed this out to mr ficton but he refuses to deal with anything that challenges his fantasy vision. secondly there is no evidence that gore would have not continued to torture the poor Iraqi people. too many of these fools here - i think it was better in the beginning when the free marketers were trying to press the point. at least that was a somewhat honest debate. lastly the obvious story is that after 8 years of bush we were able to elect a black man to the white house - one that insisted he was going to make real change. once elected he had an 80% approval rating both houses and what did he do - more business as usual. Chomsky and nader were not fooled by his talk of change - they knew before we had won the primary who he would be. i am afraid that was out last chance to really change the world without huge disruptions in our way of life. i hope i am wrong
you ego driven; vote splitting; GOP loving.... GREEN!!
there I said it, hope they don't throw me off for cussing like that
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I rarely disagree with shadz but I see no evidence for his comment - "I know how much more intelligent you are than that glib reply implies !!" - he seems to be correct that anyone who criticizes dems you label a republican - that is childish and that is what you are - too bad here at ows. shape up!
Those that only find fault with Ds and constantly support Rs in thier efforts to win office as shadz and you do are Rs and supporters of the GOP your actions and words define you not me.
you are the worst type of ego driven mad man
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Responding here to Goaten ( no reply button on your comment ) A4C is a woman not a guy. I appreciate the sentiment of your comment - but doubt your sincerity. Don't talk to me Goaten - thanks.
Those of you wondering about the given nickname - reference a Judas goat - that should be a good enough clue as to my view of the individual.
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Alan Greenspan, a big admirer of right-wing "libertarian" Ayn Rand, was one of the main contributors to the deregulation that has been going on for the last decades. For some time now, politicians and their associates have shuffled more and more cash into the hands of the financial elite and the big corporations. Thru privatization and tax cuts for the wealthy, more and more power has been transferred over to the non-elected financial elite.
Neoliberalism and right-libertarianism have a very simple solution:
welfare cuts for the 99%, tax cuts for the 1%.
Right-wing ideology is just a call for corporate tyranny, pure and simple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYW1SdQCM7s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwQEgOKEEXI
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One of the main reasons is corporate propaganda
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If you by "political process" mean party politics, then I don't find it particularly weird. Both parties are in the pockets of the financial elite. The game is rigged; the elections and the outcomes are overwhelmingly controlled by the corporations.
I don't agree with those who think we should totally ignore elections etc. Sometimes voting for the lesser of two evils (which is often the case) is necessary; and getting more people like Sanders and Kucinich into office would certainly make things better. But politics is more than voting for a guy in a suit every 2nd years. Lots of things can and should be done outside of party politcs. The system is so rotten, it must be changed from the outside. By organizing popular movements, the people can rise up and demand change, not just of the electoral system, but also eventually of the economic system (which is in many ways the root of the problems we see today). I've presented some suggestions as to what can be done here:
https://occupywallst.org/forum/how-do-we-fight-capitalism/
Don't get me started, you'll see a whole bunch of removed comments.
Sounds exactly like libe(R)tarians to me.
Wasn't it David Koch who ran for vice President on precisely that platform?
https://occupywallst.org/forum/noam-chomsky-on-neoliberalism/#comment-1027777
They can and will use ANY means at their disposal to accomplish those goals.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/11/feds-turn-from-landlords-to-warlords-koch-group/198857
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Neolibe(R)tarian.
They are libe(R)tarians, that have no issue with war.
They like it, as long as it's profitable for them.
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They have been spreading Randian libe(R)tarianism Worldwide for some time now.
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I still believe they are who actually co-opted OWS, with the intend of rendering it ineffective.
They wanted to assure that it would keep their hands off of their well orchestrated plans for ruling us.
They were successful.
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They are currently doing that.....in the opposite direction, down in Nevada.
Fully supported by the Koch "think tanks".
All those militia's that sat on their hands when imminent domain, took away normal people's land for pipelines, or fracking, are coming out to support a millionaire rancher, who doesn't want to pay his taxes.
fuck 'em.
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Bernie Sanders points out that IS precisely the libe(R)tarian platform.
From 1980.
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers
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They want to abolish everything they don't make a profit on.
What this shows is the agenda of ALEC, the SPN and to a large degree the (R)epelican'ts, and proves what I've said about libe(R)tarians all along.
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Crazy, or not, they are well on their way to accomplishing all of it.
Read through that list again and remember it was written in 1980.
They've come a long way towards their goals.
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Most of those who seem to honestly feel that way, never saw a World without the likes of Rush Limbaugh.
They never saw a World without the likes of FLAKESnews.
They never experienced the US with the Fairness Act in place.
The press, in this country, hasn't been free, since it's demise.
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I haven't watched TV news in years.
there's little there, to watch.
The days of Cronkite and Morrow, are long past.
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Chumpsky likes to mince words, which is all he's got, and charges, what?, $9 grand for a half-hour speech. Neoliberalism? Who gives a fuck. What are we all going to play the label game like the pugs. Not me. They're fuckin' Nazis. period.