Forum Post: My questions to Republicans and Conservatives?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 11, 2011, 8:03 p.m. EST by cubedemon
(185)
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You believe in the philosophy of merit and that no one is owed anything. How does one earn when one has no idea how to earn in life and is not entitled to the detailed knowledge of how to earn?
Places like walmart require you take their personality tests. What personality are employers looking for? What if you do not have this personality and do not have the ability to gain this personality?
Out of our inalienable rights which are life, liberty and pursuit of happiness what if one right contradicts another? Do people's property rights end where other people's lives begin? Should 400 families be allowed to own 60% of the nation's wealth and affect people's lives in a very negative way? What if one person managed to buy all of the land and oceans of the Earth? Should this be allowed to happen? This means this person has dictorial powers over the earth and these 400 families have dictorial powers over 60% of the nation's wealth, am I correct? If I am wrong why am I wrong?
What are the detailed and intricate instructions for taking responsibility?
I went to college and this was promoted to me by the media, the press, the educational system and society itself. I was told that the college degree was the bottom. I never knew until I graduated college that I had to have intricate social skills and experience to obtain a job? I was told that the degree was the only requirement. My questions to you all are this.
There are those who say we have a sense of entitlement. Why is this? I am confused as to what the employment standards were. I still am. Did I misunderstand and misperceive what I was told or was I defrauded? Why did the goal posts change and why is it my fault and others who did not obtain a college degree when it was told that the degree was the bottom?
Without certain detailed instructions and major help I cannot get a job at all. I have already tried things like voc rehab. I get the run-around. I have gaps in my understanding of how this society works and functions. Am I entitled to these details? If I am not then does this not violate my right to pursue happiness and my right to life since I cannot obtain a job and provide myself a living without this knowledge?
If some inalienable rights can seem to contradict others then how are they truly inalienable at all? I do not logically understand.
My anthropological report
After 131 posts my study has concluded. In America, a person must only depend upon him or herself. A person is ostrasized if they try to ask for help or explanation. America was a country that is built upon one of its foundations which is self-reliance. In America, a child is given a fantasy world until he or she graduates high school. This fantasy is used to shield them from the true horrors. The honest truth is the people in America are not fair at all. They say life is not fair. It is true by their own creation. Sophistries and dishonesties are abound. Those who know how to use sophistries well can deceive another person and make it seem like they were not responsible at all.
In America, in order for the American people to have their affluent life style others must suffer. This is what I have learned by my questions.
What you are telling me is that some will be rich, some will be middle class, some will be poor and some will live in squalor. I'm sorry but I cannot accept that. It goes against every fiber of my being and my concience. I know I can't fight it and I know I will never win in a debate about it. There is no logic I can put forth to show that this is wrong in every fundamental way because it doesn't matter what logic I use.
Some walk away from Omelas. I choose to be one of the ones who walk out of Omelas.
Republicans or Democrat Conservatives or whatever is not real question. The issue is How can Americans even have a choice if most (almost all) her politician are Aipac lackeys?
They have a choice because they elect them. As such they can fire them through what we call "the Democratic process". Civics 101.
No, the dont - no matter who they keep choosing, they end up with the different face of the same coin...it runs too deep in the system, too long already. This is what ows is must achieve, to ensure no lobbyist traitor lackeys are allowed near politics.
Everyone in this country has the ability to organize, raise funds, and lobby. This very organization is an example of that. I suppose Occupy Wall Street should not be allowed to try to influence our political leaders then?
1) Good point. I have argued for a long time that the number one priority of our K-12 system should be to produce good CITIZENS. This requires perhaps an extra year on Government, Civics, Personal Finance, etc.
2) Each employer looks for different characteristics. At Wallmart, they are looking for the people best suited to be in customer service. Other companies look for the traits that produce a good accountant, engineer, etc, as appropriate. As a leader in my company, I assure you there is a place for everyone, and one of the key leadership traits is knowing where to assign people so they're happy and productive. The only difference between a plant and a weed is the context in which they are placed, and there is a place for everyone. Look-up Meyers-Briggs, take the test, then start researching the fields that align with your personality. You will find these fields make you the most happy and productive employee possible.
3) Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose. Insofar as the actions of one prevent another from pursuing (not BEING.. it's not an entitlement) happiness, their fist has contacted someone's nose. In abstract cases based on statistics, we have to be careful not to reduce one man's liberty simply because he's done better than others. People are not statistics, and we should be careful in limiting freedom based on statistical generalizations alone.
4) I spoke of personal responsibility as consumers at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ and responsibility in choosing majors at http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-do-students-choose-poor-majors/ . Consider the mortgage crisis. Everyone who bought a house as a home presumably thought that house was "worth it." It is still the same beautiful home as it was when bought. Why then abrogate on the responsibility to pay? The only people who needed to walk away were those 'investing' to play the "flip that house" game and gain a quick buck. They gambled and lost. Why should anyone bail them out?
5) People do not take responsibility for their own decisions in selecting majors. See my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-do-students-choose-poor-majors/ . Whether discussing housing or tulips ( see the Dutch Tulip Panic ), peole get in trouble when they do what "everyone says." People need to use their MINDS and THINK about what they're doing, maybe even do some RESEARCH <gasp!>. Our Founding Fathers assumed we would be willing to DO the hard work required to self govern, and modern trends suggest their faith may have been misplaced. Being a citizen of a Democratic Capitalist society is HARD, but that's the price of freedom.
6) The goal posts have NEVER moved except when the government intervenes to create some new focus (i.e. hire the vets [note I AM one], hire minorities [I am NOT one], etc). The standard for a successful career has always been whether you deliver slightly more value than you cost to your employer. It's that old profit motive again. I will go further to say your POWER and COMPENSATION as an employee grow as you become better at contributing to the profit stream using skills that are in high demand (a given if you increase profits), and SCARCE. I define "entitlement" as people expecting to receive things they have not earned by rights of their own mind and hands and by defining the value they provide in terms of what they THINK it should be rather than what it really IS in the job market.
7) The details were never hidden. Understand business, and you will understand what they value. Do your research, align to profit streams, deliver VALUE using skills that are comparatively SCARCE, and you will do well.
8) Again, your right to swing your fist stops at my nose. In addition, any swing of your fist that is NOT striking someone else's nose is between you and God, not you and your fellow man or his government. Government has no right to legislate or show preferential treatment based on religion, morality, sexuality, etc, and swinging CLOSE to someone's nose or "corrupting of our youth with blasphemous statements or actions" is NOT the same as STRIKING our nose.
All the above being said, I DO support this movement in a few specific areas. The biggest one is money in politics. See my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-percenter-ready-to-join-if/ and my proposal at http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-the-people-in-order-to-a-proposal/ .
All of the
"I have argued for a long time that the number one priority of our K-12 system should be to produce good CITIZENS"
Right - but good citizenship doesn't just require knowledge of what our founding fathers did or what it means to be involved in our communities. Our students aren't capable of critical thinking or writing that goes beyond description to address a problem and advance a thesis. Simply giving students information is not enough. They need to know how to put that information to use and communicate it to others.
Sure. I favor debate, demonstrations, and so forth over rote memorization.
I'll never forget the classroom exercise I experienced in 6th grade (I'm 54, so that's a while back ;o). Our teacher gave half of us red cards and half green first thing in the morning. She then proceeded to discriminate against the red cards all day long with no explanation... no playground breaks, special rules to go to the bathroom, etc, etc. It was only at the end of the day that she brought it all home with discussion about civil rights, prejudice, and discrimination. It was VERY effective.
I think similar exercises with a little mini-government could be just as effective. We could even let some students be "capitalists" and give money to elected officials. I dunno, just a thought.
1) Good upbringing. I learned the idea of hard, honest work from my father. Unfortunately, there are too many parents in this country neglecting their jobs of raising their children, or they are incapable of doing so.
2) Some people are simply not fit for certain positions. I would conjecture those personality tests search for people with good "people skills".
3) The right to life means your core life. Your soul. Your existence on this planet. That should never be taken from you, unless you have taken a life yourself. The right to liberty means that certain freedoms must be protected. The right to the pursuit of happiness means that you should be able to start out in life at a point where you are capable of achieving happiness. Whether this happiness should be guaranteed or offered is where the debate lies.
4) Own. Your. Life. Make your success your mission, and do not blame others for your failure. Work as hard as you can and give everything your 110%.
5) You were told flat-out lies. It's a popular misconception that a degree is the sole factor that determines your success. It is the foundation for success, but it is not the entire structure. A bit of research however, may have lit your way and you may have learned the truth. Always do your own homework, don't just take what's spoon-fed to you. People omit critical details both intentionally and not all the time. It's your responsibility to discover the root truth for yourself. It's called the Socratic method.
6) The people who have a sense of entitlement are those that are calling for the 1% to fork over further chunks of their earnings to people who have not worked for it. That's entitlement.
7) Search for job markets that are open. Manual labor jobs like plumbing and home maintenance are wide open because NOBODY wants to do those jobs anymore. And they pay EXTREMELY well. You'd have to go to school to learn these trades, but the time spent there will more than likely yield reward. It costs $110 or so just to have your average plumber walk through your FRONT DOOR. You can imagine the actual work costs.
8) They do not contradict each other at all. You just have to understand the meaning of each right.
The thing is I have always been the type to ask a lot of questions. I don't blame anyone else. I blame me and my nature. I just want to know the reasoning behind everything. For example, people say life is unfair. I ask, why is life unfair? Are people saying humanity can't do any better? If yes, why can't humanity do any better?
What exactly is the definition of fairness? How do we tell what truly is fair or not? Why do people seek 100% absolute fairness in everything? How much fairness should there be in life? Why? Why is wanting to seek fairness a vice now instead of a virtue? What exactly should be virtues and what should be vices? What is the reasoning? If things were 100% fair would mercy exist? If not why wouldn't mercy exist and if yes why would mercy exist? Is mercy a better virtue to have than fairness? If yes, why? If no, why not?
I am not really a conservative or a liberal. But, I will tell you what has helped me in the past:
Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever GIVE UP. Either succeed or accept the failure and learn from it. If you have not succeeded or if you have not learned something, you must persist.
Going on interview, after interview and being turned down, SUCKS. Period. Realize this and then see number 1.
How does one learn from a failure when one hasn't the slightest clue as to what he or she did wrong? Sometimes survival and living isn't the only way to win. Sometimes you can win in Death. Case in Point is our great philospher Socrates. This autistic man tried to succeed for over 30 years. He had problems after problems after problems. He thinks he should be in the guiness book of world records for most job losses. http://autismgadfly.blogspot.com/ My question is when does the costs of continuing outweigh the benefits? When does one hit the point of diminishing returns? If I continue to try and succeed will I end up like this man? When does my attempt to try and succeed costs me and anyone else too much?
Please see my question to number 1.
Maybe you're correct and I should leave society completely. I feel the best life for me is a very routinized life? Where can I get that in society?
Actually I agree with this.
I think I get your metaphor.
lol, yes compared to the vastness of our universe and infinity itself you're correct.
What if my seat is similar to Socrates?
After reading your report, One last comment for you, one last thing to think about. People are taught to live in squallier, to be poor, to be middle class or rich. It is not thrust upon them. There are those that are mentally ill, disabled that are born or fall into a specific situation, yet for most, they can, if given the right knowledge, come out of their situation.
People that are poor are taught that by their parents, their neighbors, their friends. Their parents are on welfare, along with everyone else they are surrounded by, except maybe their teachers. They are taught that the man is holding them down, keeping them poor, Not letting the succeed. There is no way out of their situation.
The middle class are taught if they get a good education, they can get a good job and they will be happy. Their parents are middle class, their teachers are middle class, and this is what they know and are taught. Yes, some learn how to be rich, or work hard enough to save enough to be rich.
The rich kids have rich parents and are taught to leverage money to make more money. they do not buy into the middle class life style taught by their teachers, or go to private school that teaches differently.
So if the mentality of the class can be changed, the person can change. there is NOTHING, short of physical/mental disability keeping a person in their class, except themselves.
Take for example, the person born into squallier. Their parents are poor, they are taught to be poor, they grow up poor. The buy into it so much that the live it up through their teens, even drop out of high school. At 21 they think that things could be different. They join the military, use the GI bill to go to college afterward, get any job they can. They save a little until they can borrow enough to buy a smoothy king. They dont work at the smoothy king, yet they hire people to work. Then they buy another one, and another one. Just one way out of squallier. It starts with the change in mentality.
So with the above mentality, you can see that people do not have to be poor or live in squallier. They have been taught it.
Everything you say may be right. Honestly, I personally think we're all the man.
that is pretty philosophical. We are all our own man. We are the ones holding ourselves back, or we are all holding each other back.... hhhmmmm... something to ponder.
Either way, take care.
Why can't it be both?
I have been told to start at the bottom. I do not perceive a clearly delinated bottom. All I can say is the more I truly understand reality the more stranger it is than fiction.
Excellent post!
its not republicans and cons that we should be fighting...
obama is just as bad and many "liberals" are just as bad...
we need a unifying movement. not another movement that divides us.
the system wants us divided into left and right, con and lib, dem and rep... but its not real...
your questions should be directed at those that do not support ows. not at cons and reps... some cons and reps support us.
I did not know that robes. I will keep that in mind.
Some have admitted they can't answer my questions. If they can't answer my questions then how can I take personal responsibility like they say I should? How can I truthfully obtain a job at all? Even mandodsdod admitted what these personality tests were used for. They are used to keep folks like me out. If this is true I can't pursue happiness and sustain my life whatsoever. Should I not be provided a way to work and if this is not possible be provided a living since I can't interpret the personality tests correctly and research would be useless to me because I could inadvertently misinterpret the words I read since I am very concrete and literal. I have demonstrated this has happend. Why am I not entitled to either of these two things if I am a proven retard and a poor critical thinker like one person says I am and I have no way to become better without any fundamental help whatsoever?
All I want to do is to be able to sustain my life and to cure me of my ignorance and retardedness. This is why I ask many questions. I do not know what belief systems are correct or not? I want to know what is truly correct and why it is correct? I want to know what the correct way is to go and why?
The question I have for conservatives is how can they consider themselves to be true Americans and patriots? America is a liberal nation founded on the liberal philosophies of the 18th Century. Conservative philosophy favored preserving the monarchy and the social institutions of a state run religion.
Liberals wrote the Declaration of Independence, conservatives called it treason!
There is a big difference between the liberal philosophies of the 18th century and the ones of today. Today's Liberals do not believe in the same things as those of the 18th century. Modern liberals should not call themselves liberals at all. They should call themselves Socialist's.
Cubedemon -- reading your post I'm really not sure what to say to you. Did your parents not teach you anything growing up? Did they just drop you off at school with no social interaction at all? I left home at 18 because I wanted to, thought I knew everything in the world. My parents didn't try and stop me and I'm glad they didn't. I made a lot of mistakes, but I learned with each mistake. I found an occupation that I enjoy (legal assistant) and decided not to go to college but to work my way up, which I have. My most important job, that of a mother, has been to instill in my children independence. Both have taken different roads but they are instilled with belief in themselves, first and foremost. the belief in hard work and to pursue their dreams. And yes, there will always be rich, poor and somewhere in between. That's human nature and impossible to change. People, individuals, must make of their lives what they will. I am a conservative, and I do believe in individual rights. I believe that people have inalienable rights, but with those rights do come responsibilities, those responsibilities include taking care of one's self and those around you. I feel sorry for you, I really do and I wish your parents would have made you believe in yourself and teach you how to go out into the world and take care of yourself. I hope you find whatever it is your looking for.
melbel61, I have a form of autism called aspergers which means I am very concrete and literal in my thoughts. My version of it is severe. I My parents did the best they could for me. When I was growing up aspergers was not in the DSM. The doctors who attempted to diagnois me said I had a passive form of ADD with a very narrowed focus. Because of a lack of information and because I do not think like you I did not receive appropriate treatment. Due to these circumstances my parents went by what the facts were at the time. My parents taught me the normal way but I completely misunderstand it due to my concrete and literal thinking.
From my point of view some of the things you say make no sense. They are very abstract. My parents did the best that they could.
I will ask you this liked another person. You said "yes, there will always be rich, poor and somewhere in between. " I am going to take this its logical conclusion. Does this mean there will be those who can never succeed and hold a job in america in any way, shape or form? By what we can entail from your premises I believe this is a valid conclusion that is entailable from the premises. Is this conclusion sound? If it is sound what should be done with those folks who can never obtain or work at a job? What about those who can work but due to their disability and neurology can't obtain work? Can we entail this from your premise as well?
The answer is yes! In a free society there will always be those that fail. You should actually read what the lady said " I believe that people have inalienable rights, but with those rights do come responsibilities, those responsibilities include taking care of one's self and those around you". The question is not whether we should help people like yourself. It is whether we should be compelled to do so by the government. People have a right to decide whether or not to help based on their own beliefs and abilities, not by some government mandate.
I did read what the lady said. notentitled, I do understand what you are saying. Should one be compelled to do so? This is a very good question indeed. I am going to attempt to play devil's advocate.
You see that as a form of slavery. Am I correct? I have thought of this and there is a connumdrum to this. I have thought of this with the Americans with Disabilities act. The employers just go around the law and make their processes fit the law.
I have already discussed this with those like myself. I have noticed one thing that takes place on ebay. I believe there is a law or rule that says you are not allowed to sell coupons. How are coupons sold anyway? People just sell the service of cutting the coupons.
If people do not want to follow a rule or be compelled they will work around. I think this is one rule human nature. Am I correct? If what I say here is correct then government laws and rules will do nothing for those like myself. In the end it is up to other people if they even want to be around us and/or hire us.
This means by how those on here think and what their beliefs truly are the top-down way will fail in the end. Even if I am correct fundamentally about being entitled to anything from anyone practicality derived from other people's thoughts says no.
I did have a strange dream one time. I do not know if it was undigested food or my own inner thoughts but what was the core of it was this. Maybe it was from God. I don't know. Most people will not accept me and those like me. It told me that we need to leave and form our own mini-society. The strange thing is the things that were said in it are coming true. You guys just comfirmed that.
This does make me wonder. How much capital was procured to start and maintain Occupy Wall Street. If it is a lot could this same amount have been used to buy land, building materials, and food and build new communities. If there is no opportunity for certain groups then maybe it is time to build opportunity from the ground up. Maybe these groups could try this approach. One group goes one way and another group goes another way.
Not quite sure you have fully understood but it does seem like you are starting to so let me clarify. The act of being charitable actually takes a bit of effort. That effort tends to keep one evolved in the cause. That kind of personal envolvement tends to make for succesful outcomes. That is why the federal government has rarely been successful at the charity business. To your other point I would say that are things we want to do collectively and things we don't. The hard part is trying to decide what we should and what we shouldn't. In my experience it is always best to keep government envolvement to a minimum and let people figure out things for themselves. The private sector is almost always better at it than the government.
1) One goes out and figures it out. The victim mentality gets you no where in life. Somebody will always have more than you, have more advantages, better luck. Nothing anybody will ever do will change that. So you can sit around and complain about it, or do something to improve yourself.
2) There are almost 30 million companies in the US. I've sure you can find quite a few run by people whom you can get along with working for.
3) I'd stick with the Constitutional life, liberty and property instead. Much better defined than Jefferson's three. As for 400 people owning 60% of the wealth. Wealth isn't static. It is constantly created. For one person to have more, another doesn't have to have less. It's not a unchanging pie that can only be sliced certain ways, it is an ever growing pie.
4) There aren't any. If you require everything in life to be handed to you on a silver platter all served up and ready to go, you're going to be continually disappointed.
5) At what point do you start taking responsibly for yourself? You complaint seems to be you have question nothing told to you, were led along by everybody else, and now you are upset that it didn't get you where you thought it would. Take some responsibly.
6) Why? Because camping out in a park complaining about how everything didn't work out how you were promised, and that things change, instead of going out and doing something to improve yourself is exactly trying to be entitled. Guess what, everybody has to face those problems.
7) You don't have a right to anything that requires somebody else to provide it for you. You'll notice the things about life, liberty and property is that to have them you merely need people to respect your rights to them and not try to take them from you. At the moment you need to take from somebody else's life, liberty and property, your rights have ended.
8) I would suggest you learn more about them then.
Truth be told, this is going nowhere. You all are providing answers but I do not understand the answers. I am sorry.
All of us in life have to "learn" along the way. Stuff just comes with time. I am old but I have learned how to do an interview. It is a skill. Not everyone has it. I learned it. I have also learned that I can always get a job. I just know how to do it. I have a gift of gab. I am old and I still got a job after II retired. The way you hold onto a job is by doing the very best you can. Most of the younf folks I work with call in sick all the time. I have not called in sick in 4 years. I like my job and I aim to keep it. All of the older folks at my job are just like me. We all come to work and work. We do not hide and play and call in sick because of a party the night before.
"Not everyone has it. " What does this mean then? Are they capable of functioning in society at all then? I do not have the gift of gab whatsoever because of my autism spectrum disorder.
What do you consider "the best?"
What do you mean by "learn" along the way? What methods and procedures did you take exactly? Again I am not following.
What I mean is that not everybody will have what other folks have in this world because of talent or a gift of gab or whatever. Not everyone is ment to make a lot of money. Some people were ment to be a bus driver or janiter and there is nothing wrong with that. But you cannot expect to have what other people have if they are a success or have handled their money well. It is just life.
I think you just said what America is about in a nutshell. I appreciate that.
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If you do not mind I would like to take this to its logical conclusion.
You said "Not everyone is ment to make a lot of money. Some people were ment to be a bus driver or janiter and there is nothing wrong with that. What I mean is that not everybody will have what other folks have in this world because of talent or a gift of gab or whatever. Not everyone is ment to make a lot of money. Some people were ment to be a bus driver or janiter and there is nothing wrong with that. But you cannot expect to have what other people have if they are a success or have handled their money well. It is just life."
The logical conclusion that I believe we can derive is that not everyone will succeed and is capable of succeeding in America at all. Is this correct? If this is correct what should be done with those who cannot succeed in anyway shape or form?
My Brother worked in a large city Hall and was in a dept that relocated poor folks in other parts of the city. In other words, he was a social worker. He told me after doing that job and working with many kinds of people that there will always be a part of our society that does nothing. Many will never work and always suck off the system. Many are just no good slime dogs. Just no good folk. I say put them on work farms. Make it real hard to live. Stop giving them everything. Try to change them by giving them nothing. By giving them food and shelter forever, all we have is never ending crap.
This was a nice dodge on your part. Telling me the story of your brother is irrelevant. Is my conclusion correct? Yes or No. I will ask again. Can I derive the conclusion that some people are incapable of succeeding at all in the United States of America. Are there those incapable of being in the workplace whatsoever? Is this a valid and sound conclusion? Yes or No. Why or why not?
Read all of what I have said here. It probably comes across as though I'm an idiot am I correct? Now if I am an idiot and a true retard then how am I capable of researching like you all suggest I do and interpret these things the way they're supposed to be interpreted? If I am not interpreting the reading material in the way they are supposed to be interpreted then how can I fill out the job applications correctly and interpret the personality test questions in the way they are supposed to be interpreted? You all are telling me to go to places like walmart am I correct? How do I obtain the job there? How do I truly know when I'm supposed to figure something out on my own at the workplace or ask for help? From my perception what the employer's demand are vague, nebulous, and ambigious. If I can interpret what they say and want in many ways how can I truly do what they want 100% of the time? How can one who is a true idiot and ignorant like myself obtain a job without clarification to things and fear of reprisal for asking for clarification?
How do they obtain the jobs to work on these farms? Are the employers going to provide the jobs? Let's say the employers won't hire them for that. What then? What if some of them have major problems working on the farms and they can't work to the pace employers demand they work because of motor coordination problems. Let's say it doesn't change them and they die of starvation. It doesn't change them because they can't obtain a job not won't. What then?
All you are doing is saying hackneyed phrases that mean nothing. You want people to get a job and to work and quit crying and complaining. Show them how to obtain work with their current situations. All you guys do is whine and complain about how people are whining and complaining. So, do something about it. Have a positive attitude. Start teaching folks the way they ought to go. Gee Golly, here is some cheese with your whine.
Employers require social skills as part of their stratta am I correct? Let's say I eventually run out of money. If I can't afford social skills training then I can't obtain the social skills employers require am I correct? If there is no way I can obtain them and the employers require social skills then how I obtain a job whatsoever?
In order to pay for social skills training I need a job. In order to obtain a job I need social skills.
Due to my neurology and the lack of information in the DSM how could my parents have known what I truly needed? You all say its my parents fault, I ask what could they have done and what should they have done when I misinterpreted things they said because of my brain wiring just like I do here?
My question is due to the severity of my aspergers why do you believe my parents are to blame and what are your premises that lead any of you to believe that I am capable of obtaining and keeping a job at all without fundamental help? When I read some of the things you all say it is like reading Greek. If my logic is invalid and unsound please show me?
Im really did not whine. I just said that there are always going to be people who do nothing. And never will. Let me take back the part about work farms. They will just continue to suck off the Government because they are worthless. Just the way it is. Sorry you cannot figure out the Wal-Mart quiz. You see, that is the reason they have it.
This means I can't even work at wal-mart at all am I correct? My question is where am I capable of working at all? Where do I fit? If you can't think of anything then will you agree that I am mentally unfit to work whatsoever and function in society at all? If this is the true case then how can I truly pursue happiness and live my life?
I do not know what your limits are. I'm sure there are olaces you can work.. Companys do interviews for a reason. They want to see what kind of person you are. They want to know if you are honest. They want to know how you are with people. It is nothing new. I think it's a good thing. Every job is not for everybody. The little test at Wal Mart is not new. Many places do it along with a drug test. Also, they check if you have any money problems at all. That alone will sink you in a job. And if you have to have a clearence, it will sink you in a hurry. I mean no dis respect to you. I wish you luck.
I have major communication problems. I speak in a very monotone way and stilted. I have major problems with non-verbal language. I have problems with the neuances of the english language. For me, it is very painful to make eye contact. I am very concrete and take things very literally.
It has been suggested I do my own research. My brain wiring is completely different than the norms. This means I am filtering it through my neurology especially if it is very abstract.
In order for me to succeed and be able to work at all I would need major help to do so. I don't want a handout I want a handup.
You are not representitive of the typical person in this movement. The typical person in this movement is capable of all the things that have been suggested here. They are choosing not to.
my terse answers as a practical libertarian:
parents teach their kids, as does our public education system until they are adults. the latter i support via taxes but would like to see a voucher system used for delivery, which i think would improve the quality of education. you can very often find school choice in 'socialist' countries even, by the way. a minimum wage that does not price unskilled people out of the market could go towards employing those unskilled people, giving them an opportunity to learn more employable skills and climb their way up the ladder.
i don't know what they look for. i don't really care, it's for them to decide how to run their business. if they don't hire you then you look for employment elsewhere.
i don't see how those rights contradict eachother. 400 families owning 60% of the wealth does not mean that they took the wealth from the rest of the people. there is not a static amount of wealth. just because someone is richer than you, it doesn't mean they've reduced your standard of living. steve jobs made an ipad and got rich - i am less wealthy because he developed and executed that idea in the world? if i paid him $400 for one, am i not more wealthy as a result? i valued the creation of his mind more than the $400 so i bought the ipad. he sold many and made a lot of money. he's got a lot of money now, i don't have nearly as much - does that mean my standard of living has somehow been reduced though?
i'm not sure exactly what you're asking. reword?
that was not a question. for general comments - there is too much of a stigma around needing a degree to succeed else you will be a loser in life. you also need to be intelligent about what you do choose to study. additionally, the way the student loan system is set up, it inevitably creates mountains of debt and an ever rising cost of education well beyond inflation or its actual value. there is a bubble in education. too many people are being pushed to go, and too much money is being too easily made available for it. the government made the bubble through its intervention. it was well intended, as is often the case, but had the unforseen consequences of making a huge bubble. which should have been forseen because it's very obvious how this market is broken. here's an infographic with the highlights: http://manvsdebt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Student-Loans.jpg
i don't know what you mean by "told that degree was the bottom." i think the part of OWS (and the tea party) that makes sense is the part that criticizes crony capitalism/corporatism. outside of that i don't think either have great ideas. on student loans in particular, rather than investigating and fixing the issue in #5, many OWS supporters seem to simply be saying college should be "free", or others got bailouts so they should too, or taxing the 1% should be done to pay for their debt. i equivalate this to taxing the 1% to pay for fantasy housing bubble prices at the top of the market. but the solution wasn't for the home with a real value of 250k and bubble value of 500k, to be partly paid for by "rich people" - the solution was to let the bubble burst. in any case, any time someone says that another person owes them some money, good or service, conservatives are going to point to them and say they have a whiney sense of entitlement to the product of other people's labor.
i don't know what your background or challenges are so i don't know what advice to give you. your right to life has nothing to do with getting a job, it's about someone not killing you. your right to pursue happiness is exactly that - a right to pursue it, not a guarantee you will get it.
i'm sure you could come up with a contradictory situation? but i don't see one above yet.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what wealth is then. What is wealth? I've always thought resources were scarce. We have a finite amount of resources on this planet. I do not understand.
I've always been told to start at the bottom. I've always thought that you obtain a degree and then obtain a job at the bottom and this bottom of the hierarchy had jobs that required no experience. Where exactly is the bottom? What exactly is the job hierarchical structure? In the army there is a hierarchy. http://www.militaryfactory.com/ranks/army_ranks.asp
What is the correct definition and the correct usage to the phrase "personal responsibility?"
Typhoid Mary Case
wealth is resources we have and create. you can have nothing and come up with an idea for a new widget and that idea/resource expands wealth of the economy. well not by much until you execute on it, but the point is you have human capital and the ability to create wealth yourself.
there's nothing stopping you from creating the new facebook or next big thing and starting "at the top." if you just graduated you have the unfortunate luck to graduate into a recession (i did in 2001 as well, though nothing near as bad as this.) so general economic demand is low. also, less people are retiring as they normally might - they saw a lot of their savings in the market reduced, so they are staying at their jobs longer than retiring - not opening spots for new people to come in. in any case i wouldn't be so rigid in your expectations of the job market or how you start things.
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My realization:
To conservatives, I hope I am not making to much of a hasty generalization. I think I know what is happening. I don't think you have any intent of offense with anyone with what you say. I think most of you are straight shooters and shoot straight from the hip. You will tell the facts as you see them and you don't sugar coat them. All you guys are trying to do is to help folks out by showing the truth. Am I correct? I try to look at objective facts as well.
Read Rolling stone Magazine's article by Matt Taibbi " Obama's Big Sellout " Wall Street owns Obama & Obama has more Wall Streeters in his administration than any other president. http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/matt-taibbi-obamas-big-sellout-wall-street
As a registered Republican I will answer:
I don't understand this question. How can anyone not know how to earn? One gets a job and from there learns what is required of them for the job and one either can meet those obligations or not. If not they pursue a different job. This is entry labor designed to build skills and demonstrate skills for later.
Ever job I've had requires personality tests. It is usually so that your strengths and weaknesses are known both for what positions you may be suitable for and so managers know how to relate to you and your preferences. I am analytical for example so I may have trouble taking people issues into account.
The only just action if two rights are in conflict is for the law to do nothing for anything the law does then must necessarily infringe on a right which is the antithesis of a just law. We can deal with those kind of situations if they every come up (which is realistically impossible).
Do what you say you will do. If you cause a problem you are responsible for fixing it. Acknowledge and take care of the consequences of your actions.
Life lesson to not trust the media or what everyone else is saying. Find out yourself and do your research or be subject to the ability of others to think.
The goalposts didn't change - you were lied to. Having a degree is not an automatic anything. Majoring in what you like with no regard for the ability to use it to get a job is idiotic. Remember the people telling you these things were likely teachers (one of the easiest majors) and in academia where the goal is to not fail long enough to get tenure and then be hard to fire by being protected by unions. None of that is the real world where results matter. Don't be mad at those telling you the truth for the first time - be mad at those who lied to you.
Ask what questions you have about society - I am currently a mentor to several friends who are struggling in the world and I have no problem giving my advice and observations out. These details should have been a part and parcel of growing up - the responsibility of your parents and teachers to instill in you.
There is only one instance I can possibly think of where rights conflict. I have seen people mention other situations but when examined in detail there were no conflicts (though there were lots of assumptions).
"1.Ever job I've had requires personality tests. It is usually so that your strengths and weaknesses are known both for what positions you may be suitable for and so managers know how to relate to you and your preferences. I am analytical for example so I may have trouble taking people issues into account."
I am analytical as well probably to an extreme.
I could be misinterpreting.
Even if something crops up and I am forced to break a promise I need to make sure I apologize to this person and remedy it as quickly as possible, am I correct?
You're correct about this. I 100% agree.
Thank you my friend. I will do my research to comfirm this. If this is true, then we need to be suing academia and the unions. I need to help get this message out to other would be college students about what they are getting themselves into.
6 and 7. "Ask what questions you have about society - I am currently a mentor to several friends who are struggling in the world and I have no problem giving my advice and observations out. These details should have been a part and parcel of growing up - the responsibility of your parents and teachers to instill in you."
Yes, my question is Typhoid Mary had to be forced to give up her liberties to for other people's lives. How are rights truly inalienable if situations like this can crop up? I may have misconceptions. I have to assume that as part of any analysis I make of anything.
Another question is this. Is it ever acceptable to blame any external entities for whatever happens to you? If it is not why not?
Yes if you're forced to break a promise you owe it to apologize and explain and attempt restitution (such as hey can we meet next Friday instead)? Expect lots of crying if the promise is to a child.
Well I don't know if suing them would help - they are telling you what worked for them. If your parents never went to college then they would just be telling you what everyone has told them. It always pays to do your own research and make up your own mind. A degree can help but usually not nearly so much as experience and good references. Of course this depends on the job. I don't have a degree and am doing very well in my career (IT) where experience counts more than paper.
Rights can be infringed but they don't go away. Just because someone was beaten does not mean they did not have the right to liberty or life. Typhoid Mary posed a lethal risk to others thus she could not go about placing others at extreme risk. (How could they have the right of association to not associate with infected people if she were going into shops and on the street.) For the time it was the best solution to the problem - people who still wished to associate with her were free to. Imperfect solution as it was.
Sure if a tree falls on me in the woods I can blame the tree or the wind all I want. It isn't going to do anything except maybe relieve some stress when I curse but its up to me to seek my own repairs. If I get mugged its right to blame the mugger because they made a decision to cause you harm (a willful action) and thus are responsible for the consequences not me.
As person on the autism spectrum, in your humble opinion what is my best bet? What exactly should I do? Others such as myself are in a similar boat to I am. What should I take back to them as well? What should we all do in your opinion to obtain employment and better our lives or are those on the autism spectrum capable of employment and being in society at all no matter their level of functioning? I am on the autism spectrum by the way. In your opinion am I and others such as myself too disabled to be in employment? If we truly are what should we adults on the spectrum do?
I think I understand what you are saying about the tree. You're dealing in practicality am I correct?
With rights, this is still difficult for me to fundamentally grasp. In my mind, if these rights can conflict like this then why are they absolutely inalienable if at different moments one can supercede another and sometimes they must be infringed? Am I misunderstanding the concept of these rights and what they truly are? I will assume that I am and some of my thoughts may be skewed? Where are my thoughts skewed on this?
I know a guy who has Aspergers and gets by. Not super well but hes made personal decisions to spend his energies elsewhere and I don't believe his current modest situation is due to his condition.
I would suggest you gravitate to fields which are analytical in nature. Play to your strengths and minimize exposure to your weaknesses. Also at the same time try to get some books or simply talk to people and learn how to mimic social norms. As a rule of thumb mimicry will get you buy in about 80% of the time. Laugh when others do, become more tense when others do, relax and joke when others do.
If you can carry on such a respectable and inquisitive conversation there is no way you would be unemployable. You might find a good deal of enjoyment in music, math, programming, accounting and other activities dealing mostly with figures.
Yes, practical solutions are usually the best ones - at least when one is dealing with issues only involving the self.
Rights can conflict but usually only in situations where one part was involuntarily placed (such as disease with Typhoid Mary or abortion and the fetus). That is just a factor of reality we have to work with. At the moral core rights are the best way to keep a peaceful and productive society while creating the minimum of harm and maximum respect. They are a philosophy and not easy to understand for most people, sadly.
Remember all rights are connected in some way. If I infringe on your right to property by stealing your wallet - I've also infringed on your right of association because you can't pay for gas to get to your friends house - your right to life - that doctor's copay, and your right to pursue happiness, as well as liberty (I've in effect forced you to work as my slave in proportion to the amount I've stolen).
I have a degree in Information Techology with an emphasis in Software Development. I wanted to obtain a programming job. I encountered the lack of experience problem. I did not know how to resolve it and still really do not. Do you have any suggestions?
You are correct about rights being connected in someway. Any action a person takes can lead to positive and negative outcomes for others. It is an intricate system we seem to have. It all has a ripple effect.
I do have another question. Why am I always encouraged to "be myself?" By this belief a pedphile can claim they are being themselves. How is it possible for me to be myself when it could possibly contradict moral standards? This is where part of my confusion. We are all told to do this and to me it makes no sense in objective reality.
The best thing I can think for software development is try to help out some non-profits by volunteering time helping to write some things to make their business smoother. Even if its simple scripts you can put it on your resume and get some references who can relate in work environment. You could also get together with some other people in a similar situation - develop a simple web flash game or game for android and publish it and point to it as work (and collaborative projects look good).
It is usually said by people who imagine the person they are talking to is shy or nervous or otherwise holding back. Its more of an encouragement to let your personality out.
Febs, I think this is a wonderful set of ideas. Maybe I can get together with others with aspergers and maybe we can all come up with something?
Would this work with employers and make them salivate? What if I told them that if they gave me a chance they can lower my salary to minimum wage and not even give me any benefits whatsoever? In fact, I would work for free for 1 month as a trial period. What do you think?
What is it? Is my my thoughts skewed, are there truly inconsistencies to American beliefs or is it a combination of both? If my thoughts are skewed in any fundamental way will someone show me how and why they are skewed and why my logic could be off?
All that I know is that I am the most ignorant man on this planet. I know nothing and I know that I know nothing. This is the true extent of my knowledge and understanding. Literally, I do not understand the belief system of the USA as most people interpret it as their interpretations seem inconsistent and contradictory to me. I just want to know where I am wrong and why I am wrong.
Sounds like your parents or guardians failed you big time.
Dantes it's not their fault in my opinion. My condition was not in the DSM manual at the time. At that time the shrinks could not truly figure out what was fundamentally my issue. In fact, I had to figure out my own diagnosis and get it confirmed by my autism center.
At the time, information was limited. My parents raised me the best way that they could with the information they did have. My parents made their decisions based upon information they had. So did I. I, like Gottfried Leibniz, believe that we live in the best of all possible worlds. I believe we all made decisions by the knowledge we had or lack of, our neurologies, our thoughts, and our beliefs.
I believe, My parents and I made the best possible decisions we could've made in our entire lives as you dantes and those who are occupying wall street.
Well, if you're telling the truth about your condition then I have no answers for you. So, good luck I guess. I hope you're getting therapy now at least.
Thanks
Yes, our inalienable rights can contradict at times. One case is the Typhoid Mary Case. She felt her liberties were being violated. The public officials at that time was trying to protect people's lives. This is one example.
I will ask again, should one person be allowed to buy up the whole earth including air and water? Let's say yes, should they be allowed to have dictorial powers with this. This is why I do believe our rights our inalienable but some are more inalienable than others. I believe we have property rights but only to a certain extent. We do have liberties but only to a certain extent. I believe people's right to life supercedes both liberty and people's property. This is because of the limited amount of space we have on the planet. I do not believe that absolute liberty and absolute property rights is practical in today's world because of the dwindling planetary space and other conditions like the morality of the people. If we start colonizing other planets and people become better in their morals I believe property rights and liberty could become more absolute again because people who did not like an area could just leave.
Did you ever have to work in your life or were you spoon fed? The whole time you spent in college, did you live in your room and do your studies on line? If you didnt makes me wonder why you have NO social skills. Sorry nobody took you by the hand and explained the whole world to you.
The world was explained to me. If what you say is true then those who did explain know nothing either. When you mean the world do you mean literally the whole world? Each part of the world has different cultures which require different social skills. What kind of social skills do we mean here? I apologize for my offense but your vernacular and the way you speak comes across as gibberish and non-sensical. It is not your fault it is how my brain is naturally wired.
I was sent to elementary, middle, and high school to learn social skills from the other children. I do not understand this theory at all and what I was supposed to learn from them.
What was I supposed to learn by students saying these various phrases?
It was a simple question - have you ever worked a day in your life?
Sounds like you are from the "I'm special and unique" generation where everyone is equal. Welcome to the real world. You have some growing up to do, quickly.
Actually, yes I have worked. It depends upon your usage to the definition of the word work. I have mowed the lawn before so I have worked. I need more specifics as the question you ask comes across to me as very ambigious and vague. dantes, again your logic makes no sense. You disagree with this phrase in the declaration of independence "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
They said we were created equal. Again, I do not follow and I do not understand this inconsistency to the conservative and the traditionalist mantra. Are we all created equal or are we not? If we are not then have found a flaw in the founding father's logic have we not and our declaration of independence has flaws. Am I correct? If I'm wrong then why I'm wrong? You're giving me logic I do not follow.
By what some of what you say about college it's caveat emptor am I correct? By this standard I should learn how to test my own meat for salmonella am I correct? If I am poisoned by Salmonella then it is my own fault because I did not learn how to test my own meat, am I correct? Am I am incorrect with my thinking why am I wrong?
This is another thing I do not understand at all. Why is it always wrong to blame external circumstances that occur to a specific person? Is this actually true? Are there cases in which blaming external circumstances outside of a particular person is acceptable?
By the logic of this standard a woman should take responsibility and should've taken self-defense classes and used them to fight off the offender. If I am wrong and more than likely I could be wrong will someone please walk me through the logic and show me why I am wrong?
No one said it was always wrong to blame external circumstances. It is only wrong when external circumstances are not to blame. The people in this group are not victims of external circumstances like the woman in your example. They are victims of their own ignorance. My mother told me a long time ago that when you point a finger at someone or something, there are three pointing back at you. Your group could learn from that simple statement.
I disagree. I believe certain things may have been misrepresented. My disagreement does not matter though. You're going to believe what you believe and I believe a good chunk of the population believes what you believe as well. I may be wrong about what I said.
If I am right we are wasting our time either way. I believe we all need to walk away from your insanity. You can have your society ran in your insane and boondoggle way in which it is expected that children figure things out themselves. Children need to be trained thouroghly in the way they ought to go. This comes from the bible. I'm sorry but I do not buy this figure things out yourself way that you believe and employers believe as well.
Please be specific in your response. What is it exactly that you think thses people are victims of? I agree that children need to be trained. I never said they should be left to their own devices. They should, however, be trained to think for themselves and be allowed to make some of their own decisions. When they make a bad one they also need to be trained to take personal responsibility for them. Does this sound at all familiar?
I do not know to be honest. I'm trying to figure all of this out. I am trying to retrace the sequence of my whole life.
I feel like reality somehow just flipped upon me. Others seem to perceive the same thing. The best way I can describe it is I feel like I'm in a parallel universe and somehow I came here during a certain event in my life. I do not know what is going on. The best way I can describe my feelings is this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallels_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)
The next thing I'm going to do is to look for unusual anomolies that took place from the date of my birth until now.
It isn't wrong.
Simple thinking doesn't result in solving complex problems.
Though it is best to understand that phenomena are complex and interdependent, the fact of poverty is not inherently caused by flaws of character any more than they are caused by flaws of society. Both are interdependent. It is insufficient to think that social programs will solve the problems of power inequity, they may change economic inequality, but without altering the individual, the small social network, the large, the states and nation, the problem of power inequity will always occur on and on forever.
It sounds like your are socially retarded. Your Parents are the first to blame, maybe you should occupy their front lawn. Next your extended family; aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, Most likely you were advised not to get those tatoos or certain body art, that you should bathe on a regular basis. If you include school councilers, teachers, professors, well meaning friends, etc. you may have enough people to sue for the rest of your life.
I am taking for granted you have a family, tatoos, body art, that you truly did go to school and you are as stupid as your writing makes you sound. Seeing the caliber of those participating in the occupy movement, But if you didn't have a family or the rest, sue the government, they are most likely the ones that raised you.
"It sounds like your are socially retarded. Your Parents are the first to blame, maybe you should occupy their front lawn. Next your extended family; aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, Most likely you were advised not to get those tatoos or certain body art, that you should bathe on a regular basis. If you include school councilers, teachers, professors, well meaning friends, etc. you may have enough people to sue for the rest of your life."
First, I don't wear tatoos. I do not believe in them. Actually, you're correct, I am socially retarded by today's societial standards. This is because of my aspergers disorder which is an autism spectrum disorder. I am seeking help for it by the way. My parents did try to help me though. My disorder was not in the DSM when I was a child. It was only put in I believe 1994. Even then, most psychologists were not using the DSM-IV so my parents had no way of knowing or giving me what they needed. Please, I am asking don't hate them or blame them.
By the way, you can call me anything you want except late for supper :D
You need to make up your mind. It seems you want to blame everything you are on someone or something else. I am glad your parents tryed and that you don't hate them. It's great you are seeking help for your disorder. You see you wanted to make people believe it was society that caused all of the problems in your life but it isn't society but you have an actual disorder.
Hope everything works out.
I'm not trying to make people believe anything. I'm just trying to obtain objective truth and objective facts as to whether it is my disorder, my own neglience, or if it was society's fault or a combo of all. If it came out that way kenny I humbly apologize. The thing is the more people I speak to the more data I can collate together. After I collate the data I can then look for patterns to our societial system.
Speaking of fault and society I do have a question about that.
Is society ever at fault for whatever happens to one person or a group of people? Are there cases in which it is acceptable to blame a given society that is in the set of all societies that exist and possibly can exist? What are these acceptable cases if there are any?
By the way, thanks.
Kids for a number of years are told abortion is nothing but removing useless tissue, that it's not a life not a baby, it has no soul no special purpose. Bringing their life to be the same since they come from useless tissue, with no purpose. Then we send them to self esteem classes because they have no sence of purpose.
Society does have a responsibility to help those in need. The differance is that help has become a lifestyle. Dollars and cents in this country means we are going to loose some social services. Those who will come out of it well are those who believe in self responsibility. This is not a good explanation of how I feel, because I believe religious organizations have a responsibility also, but are being pushed out of society eventhough many really want to be there for those who need help.
What if it were part of receiving assistance you had to pass a drug test or if using food stamps limited the foods you could purchase by fat and salt content, that cash couldn't be given as change when using food stamps. What if in order to qualify and keep section 8 housing you had to maintain the dwelling to certain standards or attend classes on how to get off public assistance. Non of these will happen, only because it requires personal responsibilty.
"Kids for a number of years are told abortion is nothing but removing useless tissue, that it's not a life not a baby, it has no soul no special purpose. Bringing their life to be the same since they come from useless tissue, with no purpose. Then we send them to self esteem classes because they have no sence of purpose."
It is very difficult for me to understand the concept of "soul." It is very abstract possibly to abstract for me. I do try to understand. With the self-esteem classes, their is no logic behind them and all they did was talked in abstract nonsense that made no logical sense to me. They did nothing to bolster my self-esteem. I've always felt I've had to accomplish something and self-esteem comes with it.
"Society does have a responsibility to help those in need. The differance is that help has become a lifestyle. Dollars and cents in this country means we are going to loose some social services. Those who will come out of it well are those who believe in self responsibility. This is not a good explanation of how I feel, because I believe religious organizations have a responsibility also, but are being pushed out of society eventhough many really want to be there for those who need help.
What if it were part of receiving assistance you had to pass a drug test or if using food stamps limited the foods you could purchase by fat and salt content, that cash couldn't be given as change when using food stamps. What if in order to qualify and keep section 8 housing you had to maintain the dwelling to certain standards or attend classes on how to get off public assistance. Non of these will happen, only because it requires personal responsibilty."
These things make logical sense to me. Why wouldn't this happen? I don't understand. I think these things would be beneficial to me as long as they were presented in concrete form and not to abstract. Who would be against that and why?
progressives cry wolf if you suggest people need to show id at a polling place, you actually think any of theses "radical" suggestions will get through.
kenny, are you serious? I do not understand. Why wouldn't they make a person show ID to prevent fraud? If they don't want people to show ID then anyone can claim to be anyone fudging the results. Kenny, I do have aspergers which is a condition on the autism spectrum. I may be lacking information. Why would a progressive be against showing ID? This makes no logical sense to me. Would a progressive be willing to answer. It seems like the more I try to understand people the more bizarre things become.
I am serious, if ID has to be shown when you go to vote, according to ACLU, NAACP, the Democrat party and other progressives, it will "disinfranchise" the poor and minority voters. The State or Oregon, where I live gives free, state ID cards to those who can not afford to pay the $15 fee. Check it out it is true.
I think I understand where they are coming from for at least the poor.. The problem is not the ID itself but the ability to afford the ID. In my opinion, One solution is the free, state cards like in Oregon or another solution is if this person elects to receive this ID they have to pay it back later either in the form of money or community service. This is for the voters who are poor. How would it disinfranchise minority voters?
I don't know, but that is the claim. You will need to ask the NAACP.
I consider myself fairly conservative in the way I view things, however I have the same concerns you have.
I'm 21 years old, still in college, doing very well I'd like to think, so maybe this movement doesn't affect me. It might in a year, when I have mountains of debt and loans to pay off and I'm unable to find a job.
The problem is, we've done exactly what you all have told a us to do. Our parents told us to go to college, they wanted us to have a better life and a good job. We've been hearing this our entire lives, that we're smart and talented and deserve a good life and good jobs.
And now it seems like something of a slap in the face for people to tell us that we are entitled, and that just because we spent ridiculous amounts of money on education for a degree doesn't mean we are beneath flipping burgers?
I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with that. It's bad enough people treat us like kids and yet tell us to act like adults.
Still, I don't think this protest is accomplishing anything. I don't think "wall-street" is to blame for the lack of jobs. But what do I know, I'm just some kid pursuing a history degree....
rlhar, they are not going to change how they deal with us at all. They will not help in anyway shape or form. Let's simply walk away. We're not changing anyone's minds. How much capital has OWS has procured. Look at what notentitled and others have said. If we we were all on fire they would not even spit on us to put the fire out.
Maybe it could be used to build new communities and walk out of mainstream society completely. We're dealing with our parents generation in which they preconceptions of us which may or may not be true. Their way of teaching and instructing in my opinion is so screwballish for some people.
With these communities, I would love them to be more conservative in nature or at least some of them. My ideal community would be victorian in nature. Our children would be taught morals and how to live properly in a very intricate and detailed way. No guessing and having to make inferences or at least reduce this as much as possible.
Those who are more liberal can form their own communities as well. We could be a mini-nation within a nation and as long as we follow all of our state's and national laws I believe we can make it. I believe good fences would make good neighbors.
I don't think you heard what I said so let me repeat. The choice of whether or not help is an individual one not a collective one. I am personally evolved in many charitable organizations but I don't expect others to do the same. Btw, the ideal community you are referring to is how most of us already live.
From my own experiences and my perceptions, I'm sorry but I do not believe it and I do not believe you.
"The choice of whether or not help is an individual one not a collective one. "
I did hear you, loud and clear. A lot of people have made their choices. They choose not to help. I accept that decision. I accept I can't force others to do what they do not want to do. My perceptions and experience help me to derive that your logic is sound. Therefore, I believe some people need to walk away and walk out of Omelas.
"Btw, the ideal community you are referring to is how most of us already live."
No you do not. You give the apperance that way. It is all appearance and show. I want to actually live by the virtures and values you promote. I've always thought it was the values that were wrong. It is not the values that are wrong it's that people act like they follow them but actually do not.
Sorry you feel that way. Not everyone can be raised the same way or in the same evironment as my children. I can only hope that your future experiences will treat you better.
You're correct notentitled. You have your perceptions and your experiences. I have mine. I see a green world and you see a red world. Who is right and who is wrong? Who knows? Maybe we're all right and we're all wrong in different ways. Again, who knows?Not everyone can be raised the same way or in the same environment. You're right. I have been thinking that maybe some people are approaching this wrong including me. If certain subsets of a given population can't succeed in a given mainstream society maybe the best answer is to walk away and go where they can succeed. I do believe certain fraudlent practices happened. I have no proof of this.
Don't blame the rest of society for the things you didn't get from your parents. No offense but it sounds like you were misinformed. If your parents told you that you deserve a good life and a good job, they led you astray. Something tells me that you may have misunderstood what they said. My guess is they said they "wanted" you to have a good life and a good job. There is a big diffence between "deserve", and "want". If they actually did say that, they were mistaken. Most parents do the best they can with what they have but occasionally we do make mistakes.
You're are correct. Parents do make mistakes. No one is perfect.
I'm trying to figure out the disconnect to it myself. It makes no logical sense. I did exactly what I was told as well. Did we both have the same perceptions here?
"I did exactly as I was told" is a reflection of the root cause here.
A bit of critical thinking rather than just doing as you were told would have saved your ass. Even before the financial crisis, the average salary for a new grad was roughly $32K. How much did you borrow to get a chance at making $32K? When the economy collapsed and the job market started going down hill, did you re-evaluate your decision or did you keep taking out loans, thinking that somehow things would magically improve?
The first step you need to take in order to be a free person is to stop acting like a slave, waiting for someone to 'tell you' what to do. Try thinking for yourself.
If people are not going to be truthful about how things work in society and it is caveat emptor then I personally can't live in a society that allows nonsense like this to occur and it is 100% acceptable.
You are correct in everything you say. My critical thinking says to walk away then and help to build a mini society that has moral values and actually follows them. Maybe mainstream America is not a good fit for me and others as well in which values and beliefs are cherry picked and discarded when it is inconvient to follow them. I say, walk away from Omelas.
You are so correct I will start thinking for myself and you know what. I am not liking what I find when I do. The more answers I obtain the more I think it's time to walk out of Omelas.
Here are my answers:
1) The merit, in my opinion, IS the ability to acquire the knowledge of how to "earn" and produce to support yourself. Even if there were some super secret knowledge required to make a living I don't think anyone owes that to you.
2) As an employer I look for someone who is emotionally balanced, a good communicator, and demonstrates an ability to solve problems. I can't speak for Wal-Mart, but I'm sure they are looking for something similar. If you are not emotionally balanced I would suggest you seek professional help -- if you are not a good communicator perhaps you should seek a job that doesn't require much communicating -- if you are not a good problem solver then perhaps you could find a position doing manual labor or something that is very highly-directed.
3) Those rights are by definition negative rights. "a free man is he that in those things which by his strength and wit he is able to do is not hindered to do what he hath the will to do" Should 400 families be allowed to control 60% of the wealth? Yes or even more. Should they be allowed to affect other people's lives in a negative way? No. If they do they need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. As far as people owning all of the land and all of the oceans: The only way to become wealthy in a society that ACTUALLY respects and enforces the freedoms of it's actors is to produce something that is of value to someone else (the creation of wealth)... Wealth is not a pie that is divvied up -- if someone gets rich it doesn't make someone else poorer and in most but not all cases it makes everyone better off. Your question is so loaded I don't know what to do with it. Additionally you seem to think that somehow someone that was rich would have "dictatorial powers" over everyone else. I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion, but that can't happen if: a) The government is limited in its powers such that the "get money out of politics" isn't even an issue because the incentive isn't there b) The government strictly enforces the negative rights that members of this nation are SUPPOSED to have
4) Taking responsibility means "owning" the consequences of your actions. In other words, if you take out $70,000 of student loans and then find out that you can't pay them back but then you expect someone else to do it for you -- that's NOT responsibility. There are no INTRICATE rules -- no one owes you anything.
5) Did someone force you to go to college or are you just searching for a scapegoat? I'm asking seriously. If you voluntarily paid for school (probably $40k +) without doing your OWN research about how it would impact your life then not only do I not have sympathy for you, but I think you got what you deserved. I don't mean this as a personal attack and I hope that if this is what happened that you learned from it.
6) Regardless of whether you misunderstood or were defrauded I still believe that it's YOUR problem and that YOU should own it. It's unfortunate, but at the same time you can take pride in solving your own problems and improving your state of life. I REALLY strongly believe that success should be measured NOT on where you end up but by what you've done with your life. This is part of the reason I have very little respect for the protesters -- if success is WHAT YOU DO, then the protesters are sitting in a park making excuses about their status in society (not a single solution in sight). I agree that some of the grievances are valid, but I'd MUCH rather see people working together to try to SOLVE the problems.
7,8) There is no secret that will get you a job. If you need assistance in writing a resume or help with interviewing or something then there are TONS of sources for this. In fact, if that's legitimately what you need then I would very sincerely be willing to help you. I should stress that the word "pursuit" in "pursuit of happiness" is extremely important to understand .Happiness isn't guaranteed, and you do, in fact, have to put a lot of work towards it to make it happen.
Mainly, I'm just trying to understand where my thinking went wrong and why. Mainly, I need answers to certain questions I have. I feel like I am rip van winkle coming up from a long sleep and I am trying to figure out what is going on. For number 6, so do I.
You say no one owes us anything am I correct? If no one owes us anything does this mean it is only constrained of what is givable?
This post is long with photos and commentaries, but it actually answers most of these questions.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/
I don't understand why these questions are addressed specifically "Republicans and Conservatives"?
What type of degree did you graduate with? What type of skills and interest do you have? Any prior work experience, perhaps summer jobs?
In your post, you paint a picture of a person as a blank slate with zero practical knowledge, by the time an individual graduates from university that is certainly not the case. New college graduates are not helpless new born infants.
Interesting.. an honest question.
1) You are not entitled to knowledge. (forgive me Yoda) You must first desire knowledge. I'm recently middle class. I was lower class and got loans to go to school while working and raising a child. Having a kid was what it took for me to straighten up. I cant say what it would take for others. I see alot of talk about choosing between two necessities (rent and food or food and medicine, ect) but I've seen far more people choose unwisely between new cell phone and food or new car and education. Plus today you can gain a world of knowledge from the internet on a number of any site about doing pretty much anything you can think up! Programming, welding, sewing, you name it. You don't get a piece of paper saying that you paid to learn this but in this day and age your determination to self instruct might be what lands you a job. " I didn't receive formal training but I'll demonstrate my abilities for you right now." In fact I'm a college drop out working as a programmer because I taught myself then showed them I could do what they were asking for and when the industry changes I'll be able to do it without them training me or paying for more schooling to keep me up to date or maybe even replacing me. One of my greatest accomplishments (besides being a dad) is that I (me, Myself) did that. I'm still paying loans for a degree that I may or may never complete but that was the obligation I made.
2) I'm not sure that's a question for conservatives exactly but I did work there for about two years. The personality test is BS. "If you see someone stealing would you a) tell a manager b)help them hide it c)get a rope..." The personality test is basically a bunch of questions regarding how you deal with people and, not to sound harsh, if you cant figure out the 'right' answers then you're either a very honest thief or a dummy.
3) So conservatives tout the free market economy. Not popular here btw. But the idea is that when supply is limited the price of a given item will increase. You picked a fairly tough one since we cant create more land, thus a finite resource. I cant imagine the resources required to buy every piece of property on earth but regardless they cant technically get you off their property if they own everything therefore they wouldn't be able to evict anyone. This is a bit extreme and my conservative handbook doesn't cover supervillans. I'll write Ron Lawl and let him know :).
4) Easy. If you promise to do something by contract then you either fulfill your end or endure the consequences. Both parties know what will happen in either case so it should be a surprise if they trash your credit, reposess whatever, etc. Additionally 'Take responsibility' might refer to within your government. Call them out on bad decisions or lying. If they dont live up to the expectations then replace them. They have made us feel powerless for so long but what OWS is doing aimed at the government (with respect to the Constitution) would be a fireball right now because there would be Tea partiers, Republicans and everyone in OWS. Some politicians would probably be resigning right now... Responsibility isn't just something that I can point at either. I'm responsible for myself. I'm responsible for my child's education, her well being, her morals, her beliefs (at least until she gets older and makes her own decisions). So it's everything.
5) I was talking to my wife a couple weeks ago about what I was seeing on youtube about OWS. I told her that when our daughter starts saying "When I grow up..." and I thought " When I was little, I wanted to be an astronaut". Today I cant. Why? I dont have the right education, but I'm in poor physical condition from smoking, and I neglected my teeth when I was younger. My parents didn't know that you have to be in peak physical performance (not even a filling), what education it would have taken but also didn't know that I would have to be prepared to wear an adult diaper for hours on end, dodge space debris etc. Today we are lucky to have resources at our fingertips. So my wife and I decided that when our kid starts wanting to be something we'll figure out as much as we can about what she needs. We're taking this on ourselves since we feel we'd treat it more seriously than a public school or ... other.
6) The sense of entitlement comes from the socialized stuff. Free education, free health care. With all respect to you as individuals it's hard to hear people say that rich people should front the rest of us since they have so much.
7) I don't know the details of your situation. If I cant get good advice with a problem I turn to family, friends and even forums online.
8) Inalienable rights don't contradict each-other. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. You are entitled to life. You are entitled to freedom and you entitled to pursue happiness. Now you are not free to deprive someone of life or freedom. Depriving someone of pursuing happiness... well.. I'm not sure that anyone can prosecute that. What did they do to interfere with your pursuit?
I shall do my own research. Thanks. To be honest, I will have major problems. I am very concrete and literal in my thoughts. I could be misunderstanding what everyone is saying to me. I have a disorder called aspergers which is on the Autism Spectrum. I have missing gaps in my understanding of what was promoted to me to what people believe, why they believe it and how they came to that belief. From my perception the degree was the bottom and it seems like the goal posts were changed. Yet those who went to college are blamed and considered whinning cry babies. I don't understand why and where my thoughts are wrong?
As a borderline aspergers personality (mental health is a continuum, not a black and white state), I will tell you that it's a curse in some cases and a blessing in others. Folks with this condition generally find empathy, communication, and social interaction difficult, but they also exhibit a unique ability to concentrate and think. There are careers where the ability to engage in deep and objective thought sans consideration for social matters is highly valued. Find them.
Rico, I will engage you if you do not mind. If you do not mind Rico will you please try to translate what the others are trying to say on here? We are having major disconnects. Where is my thought process wrong? That is what I am trying to figure out. It is fundamentally wrong but I know not why.
Wait a minute I think I may know what they're saying. I need some comfirmations. Are you all trying to say this:
Am I correct in what everyone is getting at? Do I finally grasp what everyone is saying or am I still way off course?
Read my other post (you're responding in reverse order to post order)
College does not guarantee you a job. It will allow you a broader change at jobs. Who ever told you it does was wrong.
For instance, a high school drop is very limited in their career field. They can not hold a job that requires a college degree or a HS diploma.
A high school graduate can hold all of the jobs as the one above, and all the jobs that require a HS diploma. But not ones that need a college degree.
A college graduate can hold all of the jobs above and the ones that require a college degree.
SO you should be able to go into a department store, talk to the manager and get a cashier job. You have already proven you are teachable, because of your college degree. The main problem with this is, college graduates dont want to work as a cashier, because it does not pay enough and it is a waste of their skills. I disagree, I say get that job and work at it until something better comes along.
Have you applied to Wal-Mart as a cashier?
BrianC, you are absolutely correct college does not guarantee a job. Those who engage in college-level studies in subjects that are in demand upon graduation, such as computer science, engineering, chemistry, etc. have a better chance of landing good paying jobs. Many have also attained great success in their lives without a college degree, people like Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg and the list goes on and on. Those people are examples of folks who had perception, drive, tenacity and weren't afraid of working long hard hours to achieve their goals. One thing that sets folks like the ones that I mentioned apart from others is that they didn't have the entitlement mentality.
I agree. One interesting note is, the three examples you gave, were in college at the time they started their company development.
I was giving an response to the question, I was told that the degree was the only requirement.
Do your own research then... I'm not sure you will get a better answer from a media outlet or someone who doesn't understand what we believe. Besides, you're not talking to a 1% or someone that even knows a 1%. I'm a middle-class person. I make 41k/yr. Before that I made 16k/yr and less. Bu if you had asked me at any point in my life who's fault it was that I made 16k/yr or less I would tell you "mine".
BTW "I have a disorder called aspergers which is on the Autism Spectrum. I have missing gaps in my understanding of what was promoted to me to what people believe, why they believe it and how they came to that belief." Are those two different thoughts or is the second the description of symptoms of the first? If so, that's not a disease. It's called being a person.
The people that call OWS 'whining crybabies' do so not because they went to college but because their lives didn't go exactly as they planned so they seem ready to give up. I read the prime age group of OWS supporters are 22-30. Guess what? Those aren't easy years. College isn't a 'free ride' in life. You still have to try. I'm sorry that no one told you that.
And you get back what you put out. Negative thoughts will get you negativity and positive thoughts will give you peace. I am responsible for my own destiny and my own happiness.
Negative thoughts will get you negativity and positive thoughts will give you peace.
I do not understand what you mean here. What is considered a positive thought and what is considered a negative thought? Couldn't a positve thought be considered a negative of the negative type of thought? This means positive thoughts are just one form of negative thoughts. Everyone is thinking negative thoughts by this criteria.
iDaddy, all I'm trying to do is figure out where my thoughts went wrong and why. What was promoted was the college degree was at the bottom or at least that was how I was intepreted it. It was THE requirement to get a job. It was promoted by the media, the press, the educational establishment and even my parents. Here is the truly weird thing which is causing me to question my own sanity. My parents deny it. I'm not complaining. I'm not whining. I do not feel entitled whatsoever. I'm trying to understand why the goal posts changed and why there is massive denial of this change. Either I misperceived or fraud happened and it is being denied on a massive scale and is down the memory whole like "1984." Either way, I am trying to get at the truth. I can only move on when I understand at an in depth level what occured and how this flip of reality occured and what exactly in depth went wrong? The thing is it is like a gnat that is gnawing and biting me everyday. Where did my thinking go wrong?
By my studies of non-autistics I can ascertain that there are two types of entitlements. 1. Those which are giveable. 2. Those which one already has and the only thing that can be done is to take them away.
One subset of non-autistics called "conservatives" hate the entitlements of number 1 but love the subset of number 2. Liberals want to help those who they feel are downtrodden by supplying the entitlements from number 1 while conservatives feel by doing that they take away those from number 2. Am I correct?
Maybe I need more facts and data but I may have an idea. Why can't liberals and conservatives come together and discuss what everyone needs and both sides help set up foundations and charities out of their own money to help those who need help? Eventually, we wouldn't need government programs. Everyone would get what they want and we could have a win-win or am I missing more data?
To answer your 3rd paragraph,.. These are all things your parents should have taught you. The other paragraphs in this post of your proves that your schooling has not taught you any marketable skills.
I gather from reading your questions, you're blind man, groping for answers. My best advise to you, is to read good books and educate yourself. Because no one can do it for you. School is just a piece of paper. I truly believe our Government is making it difficult to live a productive life and to save for our creative part of life. Apparently, our Government wants a citizen to be an obedient drone. Live, work, die.
If the people could keep the full benefits of their labor, we could retire earlier and enrich the community. Private property is a vital component to a life of true liberty. The founding principles of this country was the first to uphold true liberty as a reality for everyone.
Evil men have stolen our rights and liberties.
I believe the OWS sense something is wrong, but are groping for answers such as yourself. All the people must rally with our vast energies and ideas to defeat the evil that has infected our United States of America.
Don't direct your anger at the symptom, charge and attack the disease, which is the high priests of the money changers.
It is time we cast them out, and start anew.
The revolt has started in the streets, it must go to the core.
I shall follow your advice and start reading.
I'm probably the stupid one for attempting to address this rant but here goes. The way that you "earn" is to develop marketable skills, get a job, and then work hard. That piece of paper you got from school was just that, a piece of paper. There are many aspects to making yourself marketable and a valued employee. As far as Wal-Mart, they can hire whomever they want and use whatever method they like to determine if you can help their organization. Sometimes potential employees are just not a good fit for the culture of an organization, don't take it personally. As far as the information being privileged or hidden from you...really? I just gave you 90% of the equation for success. If you want to know more, get off your ass and do some research. Finally, I have a question for you. Exactly what do you mean by inalienable rights contradicting each other? I am truly puzzled by the premise of the question, so if you could provide some example I'd like to know what you are talking about.
"develop marketable skills, get a job, and then work hard."
From my perspective this is very vague and ambigious. In what way am I supposed to work hard? I could roll a giant boulder back and forth and I can say I'm working hard. What is the correct definition and the correct usage to the definition of working hard? What is the correct definition and the correct usage of the definition of "develop marketing skills." I could do the research myself. This is true. You can interpret what you read one way and I interpret it another way.
There are many aspects to making yourself marketable and a valued employee. As far as Wal-Mart, they can hire whomever they want and use whatever method they like to determine if you can help their organization. Sometimes potential employees are just not a good fit for the culture of an organization, don't take it personally"
What exactly are the fundamental differences of the philosophies and beliefs of the different corporations out there? What exactly in detail makes a good fit for an organization in 2011?
"As far as the information being privileged or hidden from you...really? I just gave you 90% of the equation for success. If you want to know more, get off your ass and do some research."
I'm sorry but I do not understand your equation for sucess. I do not believe you really told me anything. If you did I must've missed it or misunderstood" What exactly are these many aspects? What is considered "making yourself marketable?" What exactly do you mean and what is the correct usage for the word culture when it comes to organization? What are the different types of organizational cultures? I do not perceive different cultures.
I do not understand how I am supposed to get off my ass and do some research when I am not entitled to do so?
With the inalienable rights I will give two examples.
The Typhoid Mary Case. She had to be made to give up her liberties and freedoms in order protect other people's lives. I could be mistaken on this.
What if one person was able to earn all of the land and the oceans on the earth and declare it his or her property. If this situation occured it seems like he or she would have absolute power on the earth and this person could become a dictator. We have conquest through economics.
By the way, I am very concrete in my thoughts and I take things very literally. I'm just barely scratching the surface of things. I will give an example. By the way, I have been doing research. A few months ago I would've interpreted the phrase "you're entitled to nothing" as very literal. If I was truly entitled to nothing I could say that I am not entitled to refuse to commit murder. I could also say "I am not entitled to refuse to give to you an entitity that does not contain itself."
"What is considered "making yourself marketable?""
I'm not an expert, but I have a small business and I will give it a try. I think the main component is to look around and see if there is something that people (or organizations) want that you can provide. If you are capable of providing those services, do so. If not, learn how. Start with relatively easy things, but keep learning how to do more complicated (and lucrative) tasks.
That is just the tip of the iceberg, though. There are elements sometimes called the "soft skills" that are essential to success. That means getting up in the morning, being punctual (as Woody Allen said, "half of life is just showing up"), speaking and writing in proper English, in complete sentences. Wear appropriate clothing for the job. Look people in the eye, shake hands with a firm grip, be polite. If you have a face full of metal, get rid of it. If you have tattoos all over the place, cover them up. (If you are an NBA star or the world's best game programmer, you can ignore some of these rules). If you want to advance, do more than is required or expected. If you say you will do something, DO IT. The social skills are not that "intricate" but are mostly common sense.
I do understand eye contact on a logical level but it is difficult for me to make it and it is hard for me to fathom what anyone obtains from it. Why do people get tatoos? What is considered a firm grip? What I may consider firm you may not.
With the phrase common sense, I only recently understand the concept. What it really means is sound judgement and it also means common knowledge. If I take those and mesh them together I believe it is what most people are talking about. Most people would know not to stick their hand in a fire or a hot stove or they will be burned.
You are all teaching me a lot already. I've always thought people who were non-autistic were all similar. By the way, I have already been to other sites doing research. What is fascinating to me is how different in thoughts and beliefs non-autistics are. Consider me an anthropologist in a way.
Also, you were misled. "everyone should go to college" is a government scam. Ever try to find a good electrician or plumber when you need one? Trade school is a great choice. Art History degree? Not so much.
Besides the point that if everyone had a degree, then it becomes a moot point when looking for employment as everyone coming out of school is just as qualified and you have not demonstrated the ability to go above and beyond.
But not as qualified in ever subject. An Electrial engineer and a math teacher are both qualified, but not in the same manner
What do any of your questions have to do with Republicans and/or conservatives?
Omelas? I never tried those. What do they taste like?
Spaghetti and Meatballs
this was clearly the failing of your parents...your parents should have taught you better..not your fault, theirs
Wal Mart does this test because they want happy well rounded people working for them. In my job that I have now we just fired a kid who was very dark and said some spooky thing about killing guests. He slipped through the interview process. That is why we interview. That is why we give tests. If you work at Knotts Berry Farm, they need happy people.
How is this kid capable of functioning in society at all?
No answer huh? I think you all have painted an excellent picture of what America truly is. It sounds like we have Brave New World.
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I think these are things that you would learn from your family; by observing their successes and failures and feedback from employers. Also friends could clue you in.
This is very interesting. Wow!!! I think I may have a possibleroot as to how non-autistics think. I did not know I was supposed to observe anyone in anything at all. I did not know people learned through this observation. I was never even told I was supposed to even observe? Why was I never told this?
The extent of my knowledge comes from what I read, what I see on TV, or what others tell me. I am very unobservant and very reflective. I would not know what I was supposed to observe.
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Cubedemon.... These are all things your parents should have taught you.
Cubedemon.... These are all things your parents should have taught you.
53percenter, because of the lack of understanding of my disorder they could not have taught me in a way I could've understood. They did attempt to try and they even thought they had success. They thought they could teach me. I still do have fundamental gaps in my understanding of life in America which I am attempting to fix myself. Febs has helped me a bit. I would appreciate it and I am asking please stop with these types of comments as they do not fundamentally help me in any way, shape or form. You want me to be a productive and responsible citizen. So do I. I can only achieve that once I have certain fundamental questions answered and contradictions and inconsistencies I perceive cleared up.
Ok, I believe you DO have a problem if Walmart wont even hire you based on a personality test. have any friends? they may give you some insight on just what your malfunction is. could it be " doesn't get along well with others, doesn't work well with others"? or MAYBE, and I cap maybe because I have a strong suspicion, it could be "has issues with Authority".
true, it is funny to listen to this "Authority" who happens to be a walmart assistant manager yet that's what it takes to "get" a job. and keep it.
can't see how you can seriously blame republicans or conservatives for this but, I do wish you the best.
There are authority figures I should have issues with am I correct? Would I want to get along with Adolph Hitler and work with him to murder millions of people? Yes, I do and I think I should have problems with some authority figures. It depends upon who the authority figure was and what they were doing and wanted me to do.
let us know if you find him working for walmart
I do not understand and follow what you just said.
I think he means you keep using these extreme examples to try to make your point. The problem is most of them are not relevant.
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What degree did you graduate with from college?
Information Technology
That's rather a broad degree, what expectations did you have once you completed your education?
to obtain a programming job. What are the correct expectations I should have had?
You want me to tell you what to do?
Yes, if you do not mind.
Suck it up and start taking personal responsibility. Make yourself worth something to someone else. Treat yourself as a brand.
Do you know what to do to become a successful individual in the US?
"Do you know what to do to become a successful individual in the US?"
No sir, I do not.
"Suck it up and start taking personal responsibility. Make yourself worth something to someone else. Treat yourself as a brand."
I do not understand any of this because it comes across as very vague and ambigious.
How can I follow any of it if I'm not entitled to nothing including following any of this advice.
Let's say we have the set of all entitlements e. The definition of the word entitle is to be given permission to have or do something. Let's say we have everything in the set of entitlements that are possible to have, h and possible to do, d. Let's give the designation s to suck it up, personality responsibilty as r, worth w, and brand b. {s,r,w,b} are each members of subset d. By the rule that I'm entitled to nothing I cannot have or do any members in any of the subsets.
You're just typing to type at this point.
The reason you do no understand personal responsibility and 'what you say means something' is what got you into this predicament in the first place.
You are entitled to NOTHING. No one told you that having a college degree would guarantee a career. Being a critical thinking individual of our society involves strategic decisions based on education, locale, and cost of living.
I live in West Virginia, am good at math, and enjoy being outdoors. Shael drilling is a big thing in PA, WV, OH and multiple jobs that are required to complete this process meet all 3 of my criteria.
So now I'm a Land Surveyor. See how it works?
No, I'm not typing to just type. There is no game here. I am not being factious with you. I am not being sarcastic at all. I have a disorder called Aspergers Disorder which is on the autism spectrum. I do not understand the correct interpretations to your words. Your advice tells me absolutely nothing as the phrase "you are entitled to nothing." Yes, from my perception that is what was implied and told. It wasn't just a guarantee, it was THE BOTTOM. You say to start at the bottom. I ask, where is the bottom? I literally do not understand a word you are saying. I mean what I say here. From what my perception, the phrases you say are inconsistent and contradictory. I've shown you through set theory how it was. By your own inconsistent and illogical standards If I'm truly entitled to nothing then this statement is true.
a. I'm not entitled to commit murder and not commit murder at the same time?
By proof of contradiction your phrase "you're entitled to nothing." has to be false. You're not giving me logic that I can truthfully follow.
How do I determine the cost of living and how do I apply it in the way it is supposed to be applied?
No, I do not see how it works whatsoever. I feel like you're leaving critical details out.
He should have said "your not entitled to anything". Is that more logical?
The complete literal interpretation of my statement without critical thought is an argument that I cannot reply to.
It's been a problem that has been brewing for years...
I'm a socialist, and agnostic,..just wanted to get that out the way first.
My father had an 8th grade education and went to work in a factory making diesel engines about 1949. At the time he made 50 cents an hour. (At the time you could buy a pretty decent new home for less than $10,0000, and gas was 19 cents a gallon.
When he retired he was making $33,000 a year, in 1977. You can double that for today's dollars,...at least.
That is very upper middle class wages, the kind that sent a lot of boomer kids to college.
The world is spinning faster and faster everyday. These kinds of jobs are gone. You can't just stumble off the farm, stumble out of school in the 8th or 9th grade, and expect to make the kind of wages or salaries that your fathers and grandfathers made.
There is too much competition from labor markets elsewhere on the planet.what we need to do is organize ALL labor and make the 1% PAY $8 DOLLARS FOR A $3 DOLLAR CHEESE BURGER.
Bummer, caps lock...
It would not be that hard to do.
Your statement shows a complete lack of understanding of economics. What good would it do to make the 1% pay $8 for a $3 cheese burger? Your economic model is not new. It has been tried by many others in the past and all have eventually failed.
If I'm wrong I will accept that.
Haha... pretty funny.
"..... with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
They discarded the word "property" or have you forgotten? (#3)
"Among these" may in fact allude to other, unmentioned, inalienable rights - property is one word they had in mind - but the others are never specified for a reason.
"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" - one cannot contradict the other nor do such states ever collide with those of another.
"Logically," this is a very long story; it's hundreds of pages.
But entitlement is another issue entirely; it's another word, it's not the same as "rights."
You are not entitled to anything, not even the air you breath. To possess it, you must take it, defend it, and hold it as your own. It's falls under the Law of Nations. And it is written in the Book of Life.
Hmmmm... Interesting
Your education, parents, friends and you yourself have not prepared you. These questions are all worded as if you are a victim. I wish you well.
They prepared me under the old model. The model changed. I'm trying to figure out if I and others misunderstood and misperceived what was said and taught or was fraud committed against us. If I misunderstood and misperceived then I will have no gripes against society. I will take my lumps, shut up, and fade away into the night. If fraud was commited I wonder if I could start a class action lawsuit. I could be wrong and be making a deal of absolutely nothing. My goal is to get to the absolute truth no matter what it is. If my thoughts are wrong and I am not perceiving reality in the way it is supposed to be perceived I would love to know where my thoughts are wrong.
What did you study in college
Why is it always someone elses fault?
Actually, in my opinon it is not always someone else's fault. Why is always true that external entities are never to blame? By this logic, the immates in the concentration camps during Nazi Germany were at fault for being there. Are there not cases in which external entities are to blame for whatever happens to a person? Yet, you deny any external entities are to blame for anything that ever happens to anyone in human history. Again, I do not understand your logic whatsoever. All I, as an autistic person, is trying to do is simply understand your logical reasoning. Again, I could have misconceptions. All I want to be able to do is to correct my thoughts and be shown why am wrong and where I am wrong in my thinking.
I can related in quite a few ways -
I am currently in the last year of my computer science and applied math majors... I have social anxiety disorder, and have been a stammerer for most of my life. This last year is particularly tough because it relies heavily on group projects and public speaking. My stammer manifests itself in the form of long pauses due to not being able to speak a certain word. It feels like my neurons hit an node along my string of thought. Quite often I just decide to not express myself because usually I cant anyway, so what is the point.
It really is quite horrible to be a social animal, unable to socialize. It is even worse to be in a society that wants you to blame yourself for everything.
You chose a good field then.... one that focuses more on mind than on social skills. Kudos to you for recognizing your limitations and adapting appropriately (assuming that's what you did). Screw "society."
You misunderstand me. Your post sounds like it's always someone else's fault. Why couldn't the fault be your own?
You are probably correct. I am probably misunderstanding you completely. What I am asking is is it ever acceptable for individual x to blame external entities for whatever happens to them in American Society? If the answer is no then why is it never acceptable and why is this taken as an absolute when nazi germany and the immates of the concentration camp contradict this absolute and most people would agree with the immates of the camps blaming the nazis? Why the inconsistencies to American beliefs?
External things will always affect someones life. The question is how do they deal with them. Do you complain that they did this to you and give up or do you deal with it and carry on? My contract was canceled last week so I have until the end of Dec. to work here. Sure the company is to blame for canceling it (since it was purely a money decision and nothing to do with my work.) but I am not going to whine to the world and say they ruined my life. I am looking for another job and have full confidence that I will get one. I will carry on with my life instead of wallowing in self pity. Does that answer your question?
Perspective, I think I may understand what you are saying. You are acknowledging the external circustances could happen and what happens to indvidual x is could be due to external circumstances and they have little to no blame in that. Am I correct so far?
What you are saying is it is how I go from there and carry on from there. It is how I handle myself once a negative event happens to me. I'm going to give a concrete example back to see if my understanding is solidified.
A woman is raped. One thing she could possibly do is wallow in self-pity like you say and cry out that all men are pigs and dogs and all men are victimizers.
Let's say we have the same woman. She does things differently. First, she goes to the police and files charges against her assailant. Second as she emotionally recovers she starts speaking out against rape itself. She encourages women to forgive their rapists and thousands flock to her and they are healed by her words. Eventually the assailant is imprisoned for life for what he has done. Am I correct in my analysis of what you are saying?
This means that I need to figure out these things myself and start reading some things online and in the library. If I was truly defrauded I need to check if I truly was and if I was then bring a lawsuit against those who did defraud. I need to do other beneficial actions for myself and others with this instead of just crying about it online with no action done. If nothing else another beneficial thing I could do is to warn potential college students about what truly are the inherent requirements of the workplace and to do their homework. Maybe I could somehow start seminars about it. This would be a benefical thing to do instead of coming on here and being combatitive and accomplishing nothing. For potential asperger college students they need to be especially warned. I should do stuff like teaching them which I think would be a benefical thing. Again, am I correct or at least on the right track?
I think you understand what I was trying to say very well and I liked your examples. Thank you for a good discussion.
No problem!!! Once you put it into specific and concrete terms like you did I was able to correct my thinking. It's blaming for the sake of blaming and it is self-pity for the sake of self-pity without any beneficial action truly done on your part. If this is correct, I think by jove I truly get it.
Cubedemon, I assume that you were a liberal arts major. If so, it is very unfortunate for you that today there is more demand for math and science majors. I hope that the demands will change in the future. Too many lawyers, accountants, social workers, historians and basket weavers and there is not enough demand for them.
Actually, my degree was Information Technology.
With a degree in IT you should be able market your skills and land a good paying job. To accomplish this you must first believe in yourself, you need to be assertive and tenacious. You also need to come up with a plan that suits your specific interests and execute that plan. A job won't come to you. You need to get out, market yourself and search for the specific job that suits your interests. Sure, you may be rejected a few times but don't give up. Most people that have found success have learned from failures along the way. Getting back to my original post, you have learned skills that are indeed in demand as opposed to others who have pursued liberal arts degrees in extremely competitive fields such as history, psychology, sociology, etc. You have a leg up on all of them!
I'm sorry but I literally do not understand what you are saying. I have looked at the IT jobs online. Here is the problem. Each job requires multiple skill sets. Each skill set requires of experience. How do I make plan to fit this criteria?
I go out, where exactly do I go? How exactly do I market myself? What do you mean by that? In exact detail, how do I learn from my failures if I do not know how I failed and what exactly I did wrong?
I need a concrete explanation and I need specifics. All you did was speak to me in the abstract. I do not literally understand what you are saying when you converse with me in this way.
Opposing your your statement that I am "speaking to you in the abstract", I think that you're making excuses in the abstract. I am only trying to help you out and I went as far as to commend you on your accomplishments in obtaining a degree in IT. Society owes you nothing. You have to compete for what you want in life. Some tend to be lethargic and are content to be living on the government dole collecting welfare, unemployment insurance and food stamps. Unfortunately, with a federal deficit that now exceeds $15 trillion dollars, I'm very afraid that the system of government handouts will eventually become over-burdened and is in peril of collapsing. Others choose to compete and be self-sufficient and to pay into the system that supports those who are truly in need along with those who choose to be lethargic and non-productive. This is accomplished through an ever increasing burden of taxation. Let me be more specific regarding your situation so maybe you also can become a productive element of society. Go to monster.com or dice.com and post your résumé. Search job postings that are on those sites, write letters, answer job postings and convince prospective employers that you are qualified or willing to learn whatever is required to fill a given position. Get your foot in the door, it may not be the ideal job that you want but nonetheless you will learn new skills and start building experience that will qualify you for better opportunities in the future. It's like climbing rungs on a ladder. To accomplish this, you need to be ambitious, tenacious and flexible. Again, the job won't find you, you have to find the job. Good luck!
"Opposing your your statement that I am "speaking to you in the abstract", I think that you're making excuses in the abstract."
What is your Meaning and usage to the meaning???
"I am only trying to help you out and I went as far as to commend you on your accomplishments in obtaining a degree in IT. Society owes you nothing. "
I've already heard that before. It tells me nothing.
"You have to compete for what you want in life. Some tend to be lethargic and are content to be living on the government dole collecting welfare, unemployment insurance and food stamps."
I'm sorry but when you say "You have to compete for what you want in life" to me this is to abstract, vague, and neblous or sometimes it is better to leave the system altogether.
"Unfortunately, with a federal deficit that now exceeds $15 trillion dollars, I'm very afraid that the system of government handouts will eventually become over-burdened and is in peril of collapsing. "
You may be right.
"Others choose to compete and be self-sufficient and to pay into the system that supports those who are truly in need along with those who choose to be lethargic and non-productive.
This is accomplished through an ever increasing burden of taxation. Let me be more specific regarding your situation so maybe you also can become a productive element of society. Go to monster.com or dice.com and post your résumé. Search job postings that are on those sites, write letters, answer job postings and convince prospective employers that you are qualified or willing to learn whatever is required to fill a given position."
This makes no logical sense to me. I have already have tried to apply. They already want the employee to have the experience. There is no opportunity to "willing to learn whatever is required to fill a given position." Where did you derive this from? Now I'm really confused. Employers have made that clear to me. This is black and white. They want those with experience. Unless I'm missing something and I've been missing something for all of these years and if I am wrong will you please show me where I'm wrong and why I'm wrong. You may be the one who literally saves my life. Other folks have told me I'm wasting my time by applying on these things as well as they hire only by word of mouth not by job postings. Who is right and who is wrong?
"Get your foot in the door, it may not be the ideal job that you want but nonetheless you will learn new skills and start building experience that will qualify you for better opportunities in the future. It's like climbing rungs on a ladder. "
Where is the bottom of the ladder? Where is the door? I do not understand.
"To accomplish this, you need to be ambitious, tenacious and flexible. Again, the job won't find you, you have to find the job. Good luck" I've been told this as well plenty of times by plenty of people. I will tell you like I've told others. I literally do not understand what you mean and what the usage to meanings of ambitious, tenacious, and flexible are. These things are open to my interpretation. Your advice does not help. It is vague, ambigious, nebulous, and to abstract. If you truly want to help me then please speak to me in very concrete, literal, and specific terms. In addition, please give as much detail as possible. I know what would help. Can you give three specific and concrete examples of students being able to find a job in IT. If you can you please tell me or get them to tell me in intricate, step-by-step, detailed, and in a concrete way what they did from the time they obtained their degree from the graduation ceremony to the time they had their first IT job. Tell me as much as possible even if it seems irrelevant. Even if part of what steps you took was a. your name was called b. you walk about 15 steps to the stage c. you take the degree out of the announcer's hand and shake his or her hand. d. You walk 5-6 more steps next to your graduating class or you sit back down.
Every bit of this concrete, detailed, step-by-step information will help.
If you can do this, I can continue to ask you or them my questions and if I am able to obtain a job in IT I will drop this crusade, leave this OWS movement, I will forever be grateful to you and I will shut up and fade away into the night. OWS has been challenged as to what their goals were and what their demands are. These are my demands and goals. In addition, what I want is answers to other questions to certain inconsistencies. For example, I'm always told to be myself. If I was to be myself I would be considered an asshole. If a pedophile was to be himself then if he was molesting children then he is being himself is he not? This is more abstract advice I was given when I asked for help to find a job. It tells me nothing and goes against my sound judgement. Honestly, I do not understand how your brain is wired. From my point of view, the words you speak come across as nonsensical, filled with gibberish, ambigious and vague.
First you must have a passion for your chosen field. If your passion is true then it will be easy to convince others (like prospective employers) that you are indeed passionate about the job that you seek. My son who is 24 years old did not graduate from college but he has always been passionate about anything having to do with computers. Growing up, he was always nocturnal, spending his time at night learning operating systems, programming languages and hardware. He is self-taught in website development, programming, networking, and building computers. After graduating from high school, he targeted a company named Rackspace and was very persistent until they hired him. After hiring on, he studied and obtained several certifications from Cisco, Microsoft, and in Linux through Redhat. He has been promoted several times and is now making a very decent salary, especially for a 24 year old. Oh, by the way, he is now also pursuing a degree in Computer Science, attending classes at night. This is what I've been trying to communicate to you. To be successful you need to develop that passion for what you do. You need to be ambitious, tenacious and flexible. If you are willing to relocate to Texas, you might also consider trying to get on with Rackspace because I know that they are hiring and expanding in a big way.
I'm sorry but your communication style and vernacular makes no sense to me. From my point of view, it reads as gibberish and nonsensical. It is very ambigious, vague, and nebulous. It has no logical structure I can literally follow. There are details missing and if you're trying to imply anything to me I do not perceive this implication.
Telling me to be ambitious, tenacious, and flexible tells me nothing. In what ways am I supposed to do these things? What are the correct ways to do these things? Once he obtained these certificates what concrete steps did your son do? How was he ambitious? How was he flexible? How was tenacious? May I please have this in concrete, literal, and specific form?
Please take a look at this site. http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/composition/abstract.htm
If you need me to pick up a spoon 50 times and put it back down, please tell me to pick up a spoon 50 times and put it back down. Is this a form of ambition and hard work? Don't tell me to be ambitious and work hard. I can't eat or use ambition. Working hard is to general of a phrase. In what way am I supposed to work hard. Can you please be very specific and very concrete?
Further anthropological study is needed of the american neurotypical in order to have meaningful conversation and to make progress.
I think I might be missing something. Who told you that all you needed was a college degree to succede? Who didn't tell you personal skills were important in life?
The media, the press, the educational system, society itself. Maybe I just woke up from a long dream. To be honest, I feel like I've landed on another planet and I do not know what is going on. Things do not make any sense and I am frightened.
Well I think they figured social skills were expected. Since most jobs involve working wiht people, most people who fill those jobs would need some form of social skills.
You do sound confused. Go see a shrink. Maybe he can help
I've been seeing them since I was four. They have done nothing for me.
You imply that a progressive either does not ask these fairly fundamental questions, or that he already has the answers. If the former, please explain why the progressive need not address these questions. If the latter, please provide the answers.
Otherwise you are wasting everyone's valuable time and space.
Who are you referring to? People who have absolutely no education whatsoever? People that just somehow come out of a box completely blank?
You learn how to earn early in life.
Who are you referring to? People who have absolutely no education whatsoever? People that just somehow come out of a box completely blank?
Example: A person who was shipwrecked on a deserted island since he was 6 years old. He learned how to survive on this island. When he reaches 20 years old a ship from the USA picks him up and brings him to the USA. Is this person entitled to the knowledge how to earn and function in this society when he may not even have a concept of what a society truly is? If not, why not?
LOL