Forum Post: Money comes into existence out of DEBT created by deposits in commercial banks! I say Occupy starts trading in it's own Legal Tender
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 19, 2011, 12:22 a.m. EST by exmachina
(94)
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Occupy Legal Tender!
Guys no matter what we achieve with this movement this issue needs to be addressed and all people should understand that debt created under the system can NEVER be paid off.
Do private banks issue money today? Yes. Although banks no longer have the right to issue bank notes, they create money in the form of bank deposits when they lend money at a ratio. The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is the most astounding sleight of hand ever invented.
Fractional reserve banking involves the creation of money by the commercial bank system, increasing the money supply. According to the quantity theory of money, this larger money supply leads to more money 'chasing' the same amount of goods, which leads to a higher price level.
Fractional reserve banking is a cancer. We need to abolish it (it has been done before). This is PARAMOUNT!
Occupy Legal Tender!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_fractional-reserve_banking
Thank you you are correct. The ows is still part of the Arab Spring...this is a technical global revolution. Nonsovereign currency is the answer. Bitcoin is already in place and would displace fractional banking. Further it is a technical answer to the technical revolution. This would redestribute as a rush to bitcoin will devalue those who hold the most currency but would eventually aid those with hard assets.
Thank you for your comment. Yes. With the devaluation and without the enslavement through debt the power will return to the people which is exactly why guys like Ron Paul (I'm not pro or against him) are being silenced. I hope he wins the Republican primary just to witness the madness that is sure to follow.
I agree. Repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and give the printing of sound debt-free money back to the Treasury as mandated in the Constitution. No more debt creation out of nothing, it is how the 1% has confiscated all the real wealth. If you can print phoney baloney money out of thin air and buy stuff with it, why work? THEY DON'T but WE DO, because WE THE PEOPLE DON'T OWN THE BANKS! Who owns the Federal Reserve and all the other private banks? They get money for nuthin'! 99% has to work for their money and that's where the pain is, my friends. Remember that scene in the Matrix, where you see acres of towers covered with human batteries? That's us the 99%. We work our asses off, put our money in the bank, they inflate it with the fractional banking, go to Wall Street and gamble, go to war and plop another toxic pipeline down, go to Congress and pay for deregulation, and on and on. Off the backs of our labor. We have funded our own demise. Time to stop the bleeding.
Thank you for your comment. I totally agree with everything you said. We are inches away with having the "New Economic Order" placed on us through the magic of fractional reserve lending. I believe that with a return to debt-free money the balance of power will again even out. However I also realise that for this to actually happen an overthrow of governments world wide would have to happen. I guess the question is, what is the price of freedom? Myself, I would fight the machine for my kids not to be enslaved.
There are many options....
www.energybackedmoney.com
or
http://bitcoin.org/
Or what ever is usefull for trading goods, service, etc. so you can not just take out money from politics, instead you cuold take money from goverment directly.
Jct: The best currency Occupy Warriors can trade is IOUs for their time and I'm not waiting. I've set up my own P2P UNILETS timebank account at my facebook info page http://facebook.com/john.turmel?sk=info listing my Offers, Wants, Hours given, Hours received. Find UNILETS UNISET to see how I set mine and how you can set up yours. Get off their Gold Stanrdard of Money onto the Pauper's underground Time Standard of Money. Youtube for "Occupy Toronto" "Argentine Solution"
(1) You cannot create "Legal Tender" you can only create alternative currency, complementary or local currency that works alongside national currency/legal tender. You, as an American, can make the choice to use an alternative currency instead of the dollar(that's legal). You as a merchant can make the choice to accept an alternative payment method(no laws broken there). Legal tender is forced use by the government. You can't force anyone to accept an alt payment method. (2) An OWS currency is already being created/planned, I believe they have a design already. See https://99designs.com/other-design-tasks/contests/help-occupy-wall-street-design-101429 (3) Also see http://www.occupythebanks.com/ https://groups.google.com/group/occupythebanks/subscribe
If you want to know what currency to use(there are about a dozen to choose from) which will enable your group, there are many selections, such as LETS, Local paper currency, Hours and more. One group working on this is CommunityForge http://communityforge.net/ Matthew Slater is helping lead the charge.
I am knowledgeable on this subject, I can help. It is legal to use your own currency alongside the dollar but you can't try to replace the dollar or force anyone to use an alternative. Local businesses that support OWS, can put a sign up, "we accept OWS currency". They can pay workers in part with it, the organizers can pay for printing, food, legal services.....anything from a local company that would accept it and reuse it.
One additional smart move for the OWS movement NOW would be to organize everyone involved to close their accounts at big national banks and move to local credit unions in their local city. How many protestors still have a Wells Fargo or BoA debit card in their wallet? Move your money today. I suggest publishing a list of larger local credit unions in each large American city and telling people to get out of the big banks. That's a good start.
Mark Herpel editor@dgcmagazine.com Twitter @dgcmagazine Skype "digitalcurrency"
Jct: If you want to know what currency to use(there are about a dozen to choose from) which will enable your group, there are many selections, such as LETS, Local paper currency, Hours... Jct: I'm proud to boast I financed Michael Linton's first LETS freeware and it was its success that got me invited to speak at the UN Millennium Assembly on the Millennium Declaration C6 to restructure the global financial architecture with a UNILETS interest-free alternative timebased currency! Now we're into P2P online timebanking so the banks should start to wither as we get off theirs and get on our underground pauper's gold nugget IOUs of time.
You are correct about the loan-to-reserves "ratio" issue (it can even cause excess inflation); However, I don't agree with your solution. Too complex of a subject for me to discuss here; However, your post does show some good "thinking". I just wish more people in the OWS movement would "think" more.
It really is a double edged sword. You are correct in that the debt will never be paid off, however every other nation is in the same predicament as us. The whole world is based on inflationary fiat currency. Everything about the world financial system is a giant bubble based upon permanent growth. The thing is, it has worked and will continue to work as long as nobody poke a hole in it. Going back to a hard currency will cause every economy in the world to fail and a huge loss of wealth (as imagined as that wealth is.) What the end result would be a reversal to an agricultural society where the only true value is food and shelter, everything else is imagined. The only people with any wealth is still the 1% who own all the property and have access to legalized violence (police and military)
I kind of like having a society free to create art, study history, and create new tech doodads. We don't need to rewrite the entire system, we need to discourage, prohibit and punish those who are gaming the system to no benefit of humanity.
Thanks for commenting Bannik311. Unfortunately I don't think it can continue simply because debt/GDO gap can only go one way and that's to get larger not smaller. Sooner or later the government will have to default on the debt. If money was created only through surplus cost of living would remain the same allowing wages to cover costs. I'm no expert by any means but it just makes logical sense that it cannot be overlooked.
This is where human ingenuity comes in, as long as there is inflation the bubble can grow. GDP to debt doesn't matter, nearly the entire word has far worse ratios than us. Inflation can continue was long as we create new things to spend money on. The tech boom of the 90's was a great example, the whole world economy was doing amazing.
We've stagnated as a nation, there has been very little innovation to spur any new growth, and nobody else in the world has stepped in to pick up our place.
The reason we've failed is mega-corps have created major barriers to entry for the average businessman or innovator. Our intellectual property and patent law needs some serious revision. American's need to make a living wage again so we can start giving these mega-corps real competition and force them to start innovating. The whole world will be better off for it..
Explain this to me, please. Because I am confused. Debt is basically me borrowing from my future work, plus intrest. Inflation is created by this future labor being spent now, instead of later. This decreases the value of labor, because eventually today's labor is only producing yesterday's value. Since intrest is attached, one Dan never get out of debt because theirvearnings never beat out their intrest payments do to inflation. I understand your perpetual inflation theory, but eventually your credit has no value because you have borrowed all the future work you can do. I think that point of critical mass is where we are at today. It is no longer sustainable. Can you please explain to me how I might be looking at this wrong?
You are totally understanding it. When wages are not increasing with inflation, you're absolutely right. Growth becomes unsustainable. That is why there are so many protesters. The inflationary system is still going on, the average individual has a higher debt burden and their wages are stagnant The economic growth that would normally be going to the working class has been rerouted by those up top. The end result is that individuals have more debt and their pay has not scaled proportionately to pay for it..