Forum Post: Moderate Members: HELP!!!!
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 30, 2011, 10:30 a.m. EST by Banjarama
(242)
from Little Elm, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Can I please hear from anyone who feels like all the talk of anarchism and other fringe ideologies is turning people off. In my opinion these are useless pipe dreams if we try to implement them in pure form.
What happened to trying to get the money out of politics, regulating criminal corporations, protecting the environment.
Can I get some practical solutions for reforming the goverment we have and plans to make a better future for our country and planet?
You just said it. Get the money out of politics. We can talk about the rest when we have a real democracy.
Can we engage in discussion that is more productive perhaps? How about reading my post about Blue Coat Systems Inc.or some other issue, rather than talking about talking or protesting protesters.
Do a search of occupywallst plus Blue Coat Systems on google and it comes right up
we will have real democracy when an internet voting system
that is publicly verifiable is created
where people can represent themselves
Teacher, the Am Fed of Teachers was one of the top contributors of campaign funding.
http://209.190.229.100/orgs/list.php?order=A
So? Get money out of politics. No exception. A union is supposed to negotiate contracts, not play electoral politics.
oh well, this is ok then because they are teachers right? lol
I'm a teacher too and had no idea that AFT sunk so much money into campaigns. No idea. I quit the union years ago because I realized they were protecting the guy who slept everyday in his class right next to me. But on the other hand, I fear getting fired if I let someone know our principal is sexist now that I am in a charter school that can fire at will.
you are protected under the same laws that everyone else is for that stuff. i don't know what they all are, but you can sue for wrongful dismissal, harassment, etc.
you are protected under the same laws that everyone else is for that stuff. i don't know what they all are, but you can sue for wrongful dismissal, harassment, etc.
Thanks Teach:)
Real democracy? You do realize that this country has never been a democracy, correct? You do realize the endless problems that come with a democracy and why the founders decided on a constitutional republic? Considering your name is "teacher, I would assume you knew this.
There is a certain element in our society that has a freak-out every time America and democracy is mentioned in the same breath. I understand that we do not have direct democracy and that the United States is a republic. There have been many “republics” throughout history. The specific type of republic that is America is defined in the Constitution of the United States. This type of republic is often referred to as a democratic republic and there are democratic principles woven through our republic. For example, open and free elections, all citizens being equal before the law and having equal access to legislative processes are generally considered elements of democracy. The Republic of the United States, as defined in the Constitution, is considered a representative democracy.
In any case, even in a republic, multinational corporations should not have more influence on the political process than the citizens of that republic. When billion dollar corporations and multi-millionaires have disproportionate influence on the political process, the democratic republic is transformed into a plutocratic republic or plutocracy. I am opposed to multinational corporations having greater influence on our political process that the citizens of the United States of America!
Meaningful Reform:
Corporations are not human beings and the distinction, surprisingly, must be defined in statute. I would recommend that, if necessary, Congress consider expert testimony from medical doctors as well as museum curators that study systematics–kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus and species; Corporations cannot contribute to the political process, including but not limited to political campaigns and individual politicians, since they are not human beings and therefore not citizens of the United States. The human beings who work for corporations are afforded the same rights as other citizens; and There shall be 100% transparency with respect to financial contributions to the political process. http://outlierideas.com
Way to go Outlier. Good post.
Does anyone really think we can run a country with GA's. Direct Democracy may work for certain communities but our representative gov could work if we demand it actually reflect our collective interest, not just those of it's elite.
^^^^^No GA has said we should run the country with GA's. I see on this site, people suggesting Direct Democracy. I'm sorry if that was misleading. Are you happy eidos?
Direct democracy worked fine in ancient Athens, when 2/3 of the population couldn't vote and all the work was done by slaves.
We have a republic for a reason. We just need a better one.
Wonderful. lol I hope we don't marginalize ourselve into oblivion. I really want this movement to change the status quo. Pie in the sky ideas are sweetand cute, but will change nothing and give ammunition to our detractors.
Stop hand wringing. It is already having an affect. Watch congressional hearings on C span and you will see it has become impossible to ignore. Nothing marginal about occupations in dozens of cities across the country and polling numbers showing substantial support. Stop worrying it so much and looking for some ultimate cresendo. It is working, right now.
This was a better post. I really kinda needed a pep talk. lol When you speak this way it does give me resolve. Thanks
I am truly sorry
Thank you eidos:) I really do think every point of view is vital to this thing.
Hey teach, take brake and let me take over the class.
Listen up gang. Don't let this kind of talk discourage you from direct democracy. It is the purest and best form of democracy. A republic and a democracy are two different things. We had the technology to implement a direct democracy as long as there have been telephones. We don't have real government by the people. If you want the best ideas on this subject and a real transition plan, you must check out osixs. It brilliant.
Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org ) FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM
We don't have be slaves to our government, big business and the banks anymore. Damn that's a good feeling when before we didn't have a choice. Now all we have to do is let the rest of the world know it.
How would a "direct democracy" have reacted on 9/11? Not that our government did anything positive, but direct democracy would have been disaterous. A true republic would have been better than either.
That's always the argument they use. As if the people are not smart enough to think for themselves. You have to have faith in the People. We will make our mistakes and learn from them. Most people are not interested in revenge, killing, being killed or sending their most prized possessions (their children) to war. I understand change is different, scary and unpredictable and so is life. But that is no reason to shrink from it. But teach, If I have the choice between freedom and slavery. I don't care what the consequences are, I'll take freedom every time. As Dan Thomas said, no one chooses to be a slave when given a choice. I choose freedom and liberty at all cost.
Thomas Jefferson said it best:
“The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history - whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by the small elite."
exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.”
You posted quotes from a person who rejected direct democracy in favor of a republic.
If you think that there are not enough crazy people who would steal, beat and kill for profit and amusement to make life difficult, you don't get out enough. I have looked a sociopath in the eye, argued with it, and feared for my safety. Have you?
It certainly isn't reflected in the quotes because it would be a direct contradiction of himself and the quotes. I showed you mine, now show me yours. And most importantly, direct democracy wasn't possible or probable on a large scale at the time. At best, especially in his time it would've been a moot point that would never come up. Why would it?
so, on the one hand the left quantifies elections that don't go their way by arguing that the electorate is not smart enough to vote for the people who are looking out for their best interest...but on the other hand, the left questions their own ideology by claiming "people are smart enough to think for themselves"
Repeat the question please?
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)
But if you believe in freedom you should be against direct democracy. Direct democracy could result in a law that makes people slaves because the majority voted for it. I think you're confused.
Let's see, the world is on fire, you propose sleeping outside in the cold is going to change anything. I'm no genius, but I no smart when I see it. These guys have it and you guys don't.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)
ROFL "I no smart when I see it" ? I know smart when I see it too.
Is that the best you can do? After that whooping I just gave you. I don't think you were laughing - try "embarrassed". You got owned and you didn't bother to defend your ridiculous statement. One day you'll have to stand for something. Find it!
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (The Nuclear Option)
You mean whipping? You can't be serious. "But if you believe in freedom you should be against direct democracy. Direct democracy could result in a law that makes people slaves because the majority voted for it. I think you're confused." is a statement of fact my friend whether you choose to accept it or not. I find it interesting that you speak in slave master speech. "After that whooping I just gave you." "You got owned" . You come off kind of racist actually. Are you one of the "jew haters" too?
Are you back again. Direct Democracy doesn't give control over other peoples lives. That's what we have today, political and judicial corruption. DD gives you more control over your own life. You can't vote to make people slaves. That's what advancements like our bill of rights and constitution are all about. DD is about freedom. You would have to be foolish to reject it. Are you saying that it's better if a politician tells you how to live. Or are you saying you can't handle thinking for yourself and making your own decisions. The end result is the same. You are a slave, so you really don't have much right to complain. Because you are saying that you want to be a slave by choice. I hope it is just a misunderstanding. I choose not to be a slave. I'm more than cable of making the decision to say I don't want to fight in your stinking wars. I'm more than cable of making the decision to bail out the people and not the banks and wall street. There very few advantages of being a slave. I'm sorry you can't see that but you feel it or you wouldn't be here. But don't stand in my way to freedom. If you want to be told how to live by others, I wouldn't deny you that satisfaction.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (More Power and Technology to the People!)
What you advocate is "mob rule" with no protections for individual rights. Under your DD you could make it law that all white people must leave the country. All it would take is a majority vote. You may say that will never happen but it surely could under direct democracy. There's a reason our country is a Republic.
Wow! Has it come to this. What are you really afraid of. Because I can guarantee, you have bigger problems on the way and they are going intensify and multiply while we fight among ourselves over nonsense. That's like saying, I don't want the to be free because I'm scared of what I might do or what others might want to do to me. That's why you have justice system, a bill of rights and a constitution as a safeguard against idiots. Unfortunately our justice system and government is corrupt and broken also. That's what I like about R2. You have to clean up the whole mess and stop trying to tweak the big problems because we're too lazy and ignorant to deal with them.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Democracy 2.0)
democracy is fundamentally stupid because humans are fundamentally stupid. i would support direct democracy rule but only if there were a minimum iq requirement of, say, 140.
Well then you probably shouldn't complain about being a slave. This is a republic not a real democracy. That's why we fight wars and die because of the decision of another idiot with less the 140. No thanks - Appreciate your comment.
yeh elected officials should definitely have an iq requirement. as it stands, the idiots just elect idiots : )
its stupid...
Yeah, and then we can practice some eugenics on the retards!!! I think the people with the money think we are stupid, so they feel justified controlling and taking advantage of us. We have to have a mindset of compassionate education and protect the least of us.
i would also support a republic if the voters and representatives also had such a rule imposed. until then, we are basically doomed...
Works fine in New Hampshire too, which is why Bush lost miserably there in 2ooo primaries
Good pt.
and how is that working out lol! Athens is in flames !
You are trying to sound smart. It isn't working. The way Athens was run thousands of years ago has no bearing on the modern nation-state of Greece. Stop and think about how this little snip of yours makes you sound, just for a second.
Not good huh?
Yes I believe we have the technology to enable this.
What GA has passed any referendum to run the country on GAs? False information, sorry. Please, try to be more responsible. I've already identified this thread as one designed to put out false info, so, it is obvious.
Direct democracy for America is all the rage on here right now and that seems to be the GA model. I am trying to get information and maintain my support for this. You have hurt my feelings by accusing me of having a design to mislead. I am a real person with real concerns and you are doing this to the detriment to the movement. Read all my posts, you will find them respectful and appreciative of all the views I see here. You have really deflated me and I dislike you very much for it.
I am sorry, I did not mean to. I didn't read your posts closely enough.
Direct democracy works in smaller groups. Every place in America that has the Town Meeting form of government uses it. That's a lot of towns in New Hampshire, for one, where the first national primaries happen every year. New Hampshirites are not clamoring for direct democracy on a national scale.
Also, discussions on forums can distort what is actually happening on the streets or in actual GA meetings.
Lots of people are looking for wedge issues. There are people in the forums who are here solely to find them. Someone decided hey, they use the GA in these small protest groups. Let's accuse them of calling for that on a national scale.
Then a few people who think that is a good idea chime in. Discussion of all things is good, but the mistake happens when someone decides hey, the GAs are calling for this. What? No they aren't. So you can see that it gets very distorted and unfair to what protesters are doing. At most, they are fostering a discussion. I get very wary when I see them then characterized as standing for things they never asserted.
I think it is great to discuss direct democracy. I am not a supporter of it on a national scale. It works best on the local community level.
Didn't mean to hurt your feelings or knock the wind out of your enthusiasm and I apologize
Thank you so much. Your words are appreciated heartily. I do not want to add to the misinformation and I am glad to exchange ideas with all these freedom fighters.
The problem is not the lack of good ideas on how to reform the government, bright people have had great ideas on this for years. The problem is that they are not favored by the establishment and are therefore silenced, excluded or ridiculed in the news media - because the establishment want to preserve itself. Do some research on what the FCC have been doing the last few years to ensure that we get quality media (google seattle fcc).
When the people are weaned off the junk media and start getting their information from independent sources, then the informing of the voters can finally begin, then change can finally start to happen.
I think there is merit to getting the excessive influence of money out of our representative government. Until that is actually done, real reforms that dont pander to the monied interests seem unlikely.
Why was Glass-Steagal 'partially repealed'? Why is there no provision in the Medicare Prescription Drug plan for the obvious price negotiations? I gotta believe its because big finance and big pharma wanted it that way and financially supported candidates and lobbied until they got it that way.
These issues are complex and the legislation that govern our modern society is dense with intricate details. There is no way 'direct democracy' with 'internet voting' on every detail could possibly work. We absolutely need representatives to do the hard full-time work of wading thru the details and putting together well-formed solutions and codifying them in legislation in the best interests of real-people constituents.
Holy practicality. Thank you so much! That's all I'm saying. I'm glad these guys are starting a long over-due conversation but scrapping the whole gov doesn't seem like the logical answer. With our numbers we could really hold their feet to the fire, in my opinion, and get real reform. Not lip service to reform.
How to make that happen is daunting. Its news how much money each candidate has raised. Its news how much money a movie makes on its opening weekend (when did that become news). Its news how much money is spent in xmas shopping the day after thanksgiving (wtf?)
Getting our politicians to stop hitting the money pipe is probably not going to be easy.
Where to even begin? I've sent an email to my representative about this, wonder what kind of response i'll get or if that will do any good at all... but hey... better than doing nothing.
Daunting, for sure. I think you have the right idea. I've been thinking about local and state government and how much we really can affect it. I have an teacher client who told me about her experience with her state rep. When she called to voice her opinon against a certain bill, the rep asked her if she could write a better one. She had never done anything like that before but was the author of a new bill and presented it to the legislature. I think if all that were moved would just continually reach out, we could make real change starting in our backyards. No word yet if the bill was passed , but still very inspiring to me.
Thats a cool story :) There's a lot of apathy given how remote the stupidity of DC is and how futile it feels to bother with it, I know i'm guilty of that. If enough of us start in our own backyards, who knows...
I haven't heard that much anarchistic so called 'fringe' talk. I am moderate and not in a panic about anything to do with this movement. there are those interested in tweaking and there are those interested in overhaul. none of this worries me.
Are you the same person that just attacked me as a perveyor of misleading information? I hope this is true and I would have been heartened but for how you wrote to me five minutes ago.
I've posted a lot of replies on this thread. I don't think Anarchism has much chance of gaining the upper hand in this movement or anywhere in America. America has never really gone for that.
I think your right.
Good point - I was very interested in the movement at first but feared it would be hijacked by people who see value in clashing with the police. Last time I checked, police are blue collar workers.
Why doesn't the movement focus on issues like Super Pacs, the Citizens United Case and Corporate personhood?
Trying to convert a nation of 300,000,000 to leaderless rule seems a little too ambitious.
Yes. Thank you. That's all I'm saying. We have to stop the bleeding before we could even start to change the entire world.
Try tweeting.
Corporations Do Not Have Tongues!!
Tweet that.
Good Morning.. you might want to Sign online 'The Petition' aimed just at what you are thinking... It is being supported by the ows Press, circulating around the globe, and in the Camps.. It is an opportunity to make a difference in a Civilized way... The Authors of this petition have already written one in 2009 that got GS Investigated, with Results of 4 different Fraud cases...
Thanks, i agree with your position.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/8/stop-the-corruption-on-wall-street/
Your pals are to interested going after Fox News, Koch Bros, and Israel; you know, all the usual far left wing stuff. OWS is a fraud, an operation run by Obama/Pelosi/Reid.
There is also republicanism, i.e. if we want the government to do those things we need to amend the constitution, not have them just create new laws based off the commerce clause... at least then we can stick to the republicanism ideals of a constitutional republic.
tired of the left and the right, draping themselves in the flag. http://constitutioncenter.org
the democratic party is little more than the modern incarnation of federalists. here is some information about our federalists inclinations. some of who you jokers keep trying to incorrectly invoke. your continued insult without base may piss some people off, but to the rest of us you just sound like a jack ass. http://www.ushistory.org/gov/3a.asp
LogTax recommended we switch to a logarithmic tax system. The only people who would have a raise in taxes would be those at the very top, everyone else would get a cut.
tax_rate = R log_10(income/poverty_income) Where R = desired_revenue / SUM ( log_10(income/poverty_income) income)
where income is your income, or in the SUM for R it is the income distribution for the previous year.
This would make it so that if you are at poverty level, you pay no taxes at all, and then it goes up from there. The R as calculated using 2010 data is 8.33 (approx.) and this means someone making 25 million would pay only 27 in income tax, while a corporation making 45 billion (exxon) would have a around a 45% income... and so on...
The problem with the occupy people is they do not exercise their second amendment rights. Just imagine, what will the police do when five thousand armed citizens say we are not going to be assulted by you today? Start a war? There are 300 million citizens in the U.S. and sheep as they are allow them selves to be hearded by a few sheep dogs. Pathetic!
Not feelin that, buddy.
This forum is not OWS, otherwise, OWS would be composed of 60% right-wing trolls and agitators...it's probably more like 20% out there. Not to mention the paid infiltrators and the odd FBI informant.
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. July 4, 1776.
totally agreed.
People who feel the farthest outside the process tend to shout the loudest because each of us want to be heard and recognized (very few people dont need some kind of social approval, which is what makes shunning such an effective social punishment). The more we reject their ideas, the louder they need to become. I think that is one reason the fringe ideas are so popping up so frequently...they hope for a fair hearing, they hope for validation of their ideas.
If you really like to change things, please click the following link and start a campaign to get millions to sign it......Thanks.
http://www.change.org/petitions/members-of-congress-and-senators-fix-the-economy-and-balance-the-budget-now?pe=d4e
Click the following link and start a campaign to get millions of signatures.
http://www.change.org/petitions/members-of-congress-and-senators-fix-the-economy-and-balance-the-budget-now?pe=d4e
We need to establish a way for the people of this country can initiate and vote on new laws that will supersede the bought and paid for politicians.
What we need is to end the corruption that is preventing our system from addressing the fundamental problems confronting this country and humanity as a whole. That is our message, and needs to remain our message!
We already have a functioning democracy. Use it.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/vote-or-else-this-will-all-be-a-pointless-exercise/
9000 people marched in Oakland yesterday, peacefully, without incident, yet the media chose to focus a disproportionate amount of attention on 60-70 self-indulgent "anarchists" destroying property.
"Yippies", whose actions at the time seemed designed to dis-credit more than co-opt our work. They went underground and surfaced a decade later right in the middlle of the Establishment.
I won't say that Occupy is on the right road because new roads are made by the travelers, themselves.
Start a national bank. Base it on a cooperative business model. Let people vote with their deposits.
Could you expound on that.?
Start a bank. A institution other than the ones most of us use. Create a charter for that bank that isn't based on just making enormous profit. Have that bank run by Cooperative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative) business practices. Focus on making good loans to good people, and not on risky derivatives. Pay the employees living wages. And all the while, every person contributing to the bank will remove money from the institutions we are protesting. Making them much smaller, and far less powerful.
Well stated. Progressive ideology is far too utopian/negative to produce real change.
The fringe can speak for themselves... they should not be able to attach their ideologies to the movement as part of the movement. The 99% reflects many things, including the fringe. However, clearly identifying or calling out people who try to speak on the movement's behalf when they are inaccurate needs to happen at some point.
I am heavily involved in occupying the media. When I am confronted with fringe controversy I point to radical elements on the right with the understanding that America is great because we are all free to express our opinions.
$ out of politics and investigations into the fraud with the housing loans
Agreed.
I think it's fine that everyone has a voice, but ultimately, we're going to look at having a better formed republic because it makes more sense.
These "fringe" groups are a minority. A nice, loud minority. I like them. Spices things up. Gets everyone thinking. And I love thinking.
As an American from outside the country and with limited media, I can tell you, I'm getting the message and am inspired!! Keep doing what you're doing, stay peaceful, and stay vigilant!! Your inspirational message is getting out there for all of us, even across the oceans. Excited for change.
As an American from outside the country and with limited media, I can tell you, I'm getting the message and am inspired!! Keep doing what you're doing, stay peaceful, and stay vigilant!! Your inspirational message is getting out there for all of us, even across the oceans. Excited for change.
Real solutions by G. William Domhoff: http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/change/science_freshstart.html
Deeper economic change: http://knol.google.com/k/beyond-a-jobless-recovery
PIPE DREAMS ARE JUST THAT
WE MUST NOT ADOPT THE MOVEMENT AND THE PROCESS AS A RELIGION - WE ARE OUR GOALS!
I cannot overstate my admiration for the OWS growth BUT we do not need to wave the banner of any ideology. we cannot ignore the koch and murdoch machines that will twist our words into "marxist" and "communist" and "socialist" . Ask Orwell.
Three organizations – AMONG MANY- NRA and AARP and Tparty have been enormously successful and powerful – by using their votes- WE MUST TOO !
Select your issues & FIND YOUR REPRESENTATIVE & SENATORs CONTACT:
Then, “grass roots” your issues :
The key, of course, is republicans in congress
Important Note:
I agree!
Electronic Direct Democracy prototyping is my idea. All this talk about boycotts and crashing the economy is destructive. I think something productive is better. Prototype online to show how it can be done, then find some progressive communities to take it to the next step and try it in reality. It needs to build from the ground up and it needs to use technology as a tool to allow for broad participation. I think we should BUILD something.
Yes I agree these people are pissing me off really bad.
Gosh, you all are so intelligent, and every forum has the same conversations going on, working together, just as the GA's are working. Doesn't it feel good that we have come together, are working on a solution, and know we can change this system that has caused us all to be miserable, the 99%. I am starting to think we all are realizing we are smarter than those that represent us. They only know how to say no to us, and repeat their mantra, be it one side or the other, like parrots. Not a new thought in their heads. Here we are full of good ideas, working togehter, listening to one another. Almost feels like we already have democracy at work, even if it is only in OWS. Solidarity is the word of the day. %
Solidarity
The most important issue is to encourage what businesses we have left here in the U.S. that are thinking of moving to greener pastures the incentatives to stay here or penalize them. Change regulations and tax incentives for american businesses that have left to encourage them to return here.
Step 1: Solve the media problem, right now the mass media is overwhelmingly owned and controlled by the 1% and the establishment who will naturally use the media to preserve and perpetuate the status quo. Therefore, I think, we must somehow first solve the media problem. Most people in the country still rely on the mainstream media as their primary source of information... as long as half of the population are manipulated and indirectly controlled, we can't even begin to make real and lasting change...
If the media truly was fair and balanced and got the truth out, shone the light and greed and corruption, then we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. The problem is not with the journalists, it's the ownership of the various media corporations, they control what's "true" and what's "conspiracies" in the mind of most people...
So, again, to answer the question - first get the truth out, to as many people as possible. Start repairing the corruption in the news media, ensure that the truth is not suppressed, that all views are heard.
Here are the best solutions that I've ever found and I promise you are not ready for this.
The best plan out there is "The osixs plan". It is the full package and I mean everything a progressive could ever dream of and more. I promise you'll love it. Jobs for everyone if possible, If no jobs are available you still get your pay, 3 month vacations, 15 - 20 hour work weeks. It's based on using our technology for the people and not just corporations. I don't want to go back to a patched up version of capitalism. I'm sick of it, the wars, the poverty, just everything. This is something worth fighting for, especially if you have kids. See for yourself.
Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org ) FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM
We're not ready for any kind of self-governance, as well as implementing a realistic system that works for the common benefit of all. We're not evolved. We're still in nursery school.
But we are advancing, and I think coming up with short-term goals is a more positive and realistic approach. Baby steps, people.
Sounds pretty spot on to me.
No use sending a kindergartener to 5th grade.
OWS Leaders- if you want this movement to succeed you have to transfer this into a political entity - the sooner the better! Otherwise is no point...........
Like it or not...the movement is organic and will develop organically...it is evolving, changing, moving, and lucid...it has the common understanding...the world is a mess....and things have to, nay, will change...the change will be defined by the collective voices that develop and evolve over the course of time...this movement is in a phase of development...that first phase is to destroy the foundations of the elitism that has brought this country and the world to its knees...we are still developing...go with it.
Right on. This forum is making feel better again.
Oh, I think it is precisely these fringes that assume reverence in today's rotten political climate. Remember, they have been fringes though no fault of their own. Suppression by the corporate- controlled media, government-sponsored witchhunting, the temporary post-war boom, defection of most of the left to the establishment, really the whole history of the last 50 years.
The official parties are responsible for the economic reality that capitlaism has brought to millions. The nostrums that their hangers-on -- reform, regulation, control of the 1%'s excesses -- are constantly proposing are constantly ineffective. They are nothing but a worn-out safety valve to prevent real change.
OWS presages a much larger social explosion in the us and the beginnings of a dramatic shift the left -- because reality is intolerable for the masses. I am an opponent of much of the "fringe" you describe, but I think that it is far better to examine these old/new ideas than to do a rain dance an Obama-Roosevelt that can never appear.
I think you are right Sandy. What we are doing is very radical because we must have a full-scale change of government. I support all these guys exploring every option for that change. In my opinion, we have to have some mix of alot of them. I reject hard-core anarchist the same as I dismiss hard-core capitalists. Real life demands compromise and I just hope we can affect the problems of today while we develop the new world order.
The OWS movement as noble as it started out has been hijacked by government paid trolls like Shooz.
Have patience, and let every voice be heard. Some may not agree with your opinions, as well as mine, but if you read the GA minutes, and see some of the videos like the DOE video, you will see democracy working that is very inspiring. I work with another occupy, but read everything I can on this site, and the other site, that have more in-depth GA information, and I have learned patience. I have also learned that the people engaged are doing what Congress has not done for a long time. They listen, they hear every voice. I have talked to Anarchists, and we have agreed that we have to have patience. We are all on the same page.
Have patience, and let every voice be heard. Some may not agree with your opinions, as well as mine, but if you read the GA minutes, and see some of the videos like the DOE video, you will see democracy working that is very inspiring. I work with another occupy, but read everything I can on this site, and the other site, that have more in-depth GA information, and I have learned patience. I have also learned that the people engaged are doing what Congress has not done for a long time. They listen, they hear every voice. I have talked to Anarchists, and we have agreed that we have to have patience. We are all on the same page.
Thanks,G. I will look more into the GA minutes.
Moderate is a made up idea. There is either truth or falsehood. Find the falsehood and it leads you to truth.
People become moderate because it makes you feel sensible--you're not like those extreme idealogues on the far left or far right, you're a moderate. It's a way to make you feel like you are normal.
Truth tends to be radical, because radical truths are dangerous. It can lead one to getting jailed or killed--case in point, MLK, Malcolm X, Fred Hampton.
I doubt many Americans know about progressive success or radicalism in the history. Did you know that Helen Keller was a socialist? So was Emma Lazurus, who's poem is on the Statue of Liberty. Mark Twain was in the anti-Imperialist League. Karl Marx wrote for one of the major NY papers.
Thomas Paine, if read correctly could lead you to conjure that he could have eventually lead himself to being an anarchist.
There are things you just cannot be moderate about: Yea, I'm moderate on torture. Sometimes we should do it, sometimes not. No, torture is always wrong--always! Murder is wrong, especially state murder.
Moderates are people who think they are being pragmatists, when they are just afraid of not being liked.
Think you missed the point, condescending. Did any of those people inact a full scale government over-throw or did they just adopt these tennets for themselves. MLK worked the system and changed the government in place. That is what I'm saying to do. We can change the govenment we have now and should. Getting America to bend to your anarchist will is implausable. I have written many times on here that I respect and support the dialogue I see, though I do not feel respected by your comments, and am graetful to know people are educated and have these strong feelings for our country. I feel that we have gotten a little side-tracked from the reasons I supported in the first place.
If you look at what people were saying during the enlightenment you will notice what I am saying is pretty mainstream.
Telling a system they have to play by the same rules we play by is pretty tame. Nobody is talking about an overthrow, even though eventually we have to replace the system.
Marxist writer Slovaj Zizek was on Charlie Rose and noted how China can have massive growth without being democratic. Singapore is autocratic as well. They can function quite well without democracy. This is why to have real democracy you eventually have to socialize the economy.
Great. I'm not opposed to any of what you just wrote.
Now teach your fellow citizens in Texas and we can all enjoy some stunning bar-b-q.
I do my best:) Talk to almost every client I see. And you're welcome to come get some ribs and brisket any time!
We could egg Ted Nugent.
Lol. Only if we're crazy enough. We would need an oozie and a tranq gun, just in case. He's a wylie one.
Can we engage in discussion that is more productive perhaps? How about reading my post about Blue Coat Systems Inc.or some other issue, rather than talking about talking or protesting protesters.
Do a search of occupywallst plus Blue Coat Systems on google and it comes right up
Can we engage in discussion that is more productive perhaps? How about reading my post about Blue Coat Systems Inc. rather than talking about talking or protesting protesters.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/blue-coat-systems-inc-equipment-helping-syria-crac/
Can we engage in discussion that is more productive perhaps? How about reading my post about Blue Coat Systems Inc., or some other primary issue post, rather than engaging in posts that talk about talking or protest protesting.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/blue-coat-systems-inc-equipment-helping-syria-crac/
perhaps non-pure implementable forms can be found with discussion
NO WAR
This is my hope.
Yep, I'm on board.
They don't have any publicly stated demands, goals or objectives except to gather followers remember???
Ask yourself why that is.
To be as inclusive of the ninety nine percent as humanly, conceivably possible, for one.
Please give me your opinion.
I think they don't want to name anything specific or definitive because then that gives the general public something concrete to say "yes" or "no" to. And judging by the tone of many of these posts, this movement seems to be geared towards massive income redistribution, the total takedown of our current economic system, crashing the financial markets, one global government, etc.
Banja, I'm in DFW, and I think you and I both know that in our neck of the woods, support for extremist ideas won't fly with most. Now, getting our politicians in check and getting money out of the equation is someone that would garner much more widespread support with our Lone Star brothers and sisters.
But some of these other ideas? Just not gonna fly, at least not here.
Where's Kinky Friedman when you need him?
Thank you so much, Frustrated:) I am not against the discussion of ideas, I am worried it will turn off the people we will need to join us in number when we actually decide to act. I just wanted to show everyone that's perusing the site that we still have level-headed supporters and aren't trying to blow up their government. lol
Woah, slow down one minute. Crash the financial markets? Boy is that a fast one. Wall Street with government in its back pocket knowingly, KNOWINGLY, crashed the markets and now over three years after the fact, you want to pin that on protesters who's concern about this irresponsible behavior is one of their driving factors? You need to be careful. Discourse is one thing, slander and smearing is another.
Okay...I wasn't saying the entire movement is focused on that, but I have seen more than one "bring the market down!!!!" rallying cries. My whole point is that there seems to be so many different goals that getting anyone to rally behind one goal that would be supported by most other Americans (the rest of the 99%) would seem to be the idea on going foward.
How is it slander or smearing to name of the 'goals' I've seen on this forum? I certainly didn't intend to.
Because not one General Assembly at one Occupy location has yet issued a single demand. We are the protest, they say. Isn't it enough that they are there?
It is already working in Congress, where this movement can not be ignored. It is worming its way into discussions in many of the relevant committee hearings. Protests in cities across the nation and poll numbers showing large amounts of support among ordinary Americans is powerful in itself.
Your need to look ahead with this preemptive sense, speculating what ' they' supposedly want and heading it off at the pass by arguing against it is arguing against something that hasn't even been put forth. It is not fair and not really responsible because it just ends up being destructive
Yes, how dare I suggest that if this movement wants to accomplish anything besides being included in 'discussions', that it should have some sort of clear and concise plan?
Silly me.
I don't think it's fair or responsible to expect for support for this to continue by "ordinary Americans" if an actionable plan is either secret or doesn't exist.
But hey, it's cool - no skin off my nose :)
C'mon. They are already sleeping on cold concrete in winter temperatures. You really are way too far removed. It is really insensitive. I think they already are having quite an impact.
Great point. Finally, someone who is looking below the surface.
The focus should be on the independent issues but there's nothing wrong with worthwhile debate. Some of us might learn something from hearing a perspective that we have not heard before.
You are absolutely right! I have enjoyed weeks of intelligent conversation. I could not be happier to see our country engaged the way it is now. The conversations are absolutely necessary and productive. My only hope is that we will be able to make real change through our new found influence. I would be crushed if we become completely ineffectual through marginalizing alot of our moderate supporters. I hope we can all continue with our debates and education while we affect real change in our government and financial system. Our numbers are our power.
I have learned a few things already. They haven't changed the core of my beliefs. But it has altered the periphery.
Me too. I'm gald to know we are still a country of thinking, feeling individuals, not heartless, money grubbing sociopaths. Thats why I feel it so necessary to see results. So we prove to ourselves that humanity is not a cancer to itself and this planet.
anarchism is a political model like republicanism is a political model,. anarchism however is horizontal in organisation,. all being equal. Republicanism give power to representatives, who then speak (supposedly) on behalf of the people they are representing. We all know how that works out,. politicians lie to get into office, and then are able to ram through whatever agenda they like,. and there is no accountability for doing this. The reason Anarchy is talked about so much now, is that it is a more democratic model than republicanism (a model for elite control).
Is it any wonder the word itself "anarchy" has been abused by the corporate media for so many years,. the very idea of horizontally organised democracy is a fearful thing to those who lust for power, and wealth over their neighbors. They have worked hard, using their control over the media, to use the word as a pejorative in place of chaos, although this is not the meaning of the word. It is fear, in the ruling class, that corrupts words like this,. as they wish to remove even language that challenges their self important domination of society.
I don't thing we need to dumb down anything,. people will unlearn the lies,. and create real democracy.
Thanks, jph. I hear your points. If we let the gov go unchecked they will ruin the whole world economy and we will have our anarchy, and our disease, famine, and your basic apocolypse. I hope we can, with our numbers, try to check the ruling class and make a sustainable economic model, whatever that may look like.
Direct democracy..And the promotion of co-operatives as an alternative to corporations.. Unfortunately both ideas share the ideology as anarchism..as does any leaderless movement. I do agree Anarchy is not good PR as the word has been misused for so long but all the same does not make it a bad ideology.
I feel that. I don't disparage the anarchist, or any fringe ideology, but someone wrote earlier that it seems a hard to belive we will convert 300,000,000 Americans to leaderless government. I just want the reforms we all should be screaming for.
The whole corrupt system needs a reform but i agree pure direct democracy can not be done overnight.But it may be worth considering the right for the public to call a referendum so to vote against unpopular actions like war. The real power is in the creation of money..who ever controls the money supply controls. I think the focus should be with the Fed and reinstating the constitution.
Wonderful ideas. Thank you.
This country, the world, is on greased skids to hell and you're worried about what people type in an internet forum?
HMMM. Why are you here, velveeta? I'm trying to expand my mind so I can be part of the solution. I think the world has been on greased skids since the beginning of time. We are hoping to buy alittle more time through positve discourse and action. If it doesn't work, we weren't guaranteed a life on this planet anyway.
The Tea Party has all the answers you are looking for. Less government, lower taxes.
these boards are beginning to make me think Guicciardini was right all along...
Can you expound on that?
that maybe the wealthy educated aristocracy should rule.
You are bat shit crazy. We need the limousine liberals to help us more.
[Removed]
I'm still confused about the Jazz hands thing... or wiggle fingers down.
Read proposal 14. More to come.
How do I do that?
I just put it on the forum.
Sweet. Thanks.
We need more democracy that's for sure. What we have now is anything but a democracy. What we have now is a phony democracy where we get to vote for the Corporatist candidate of your choice.
Agreed.
A practical solution for the OWS to take on as a goal:
Carry your admirable process of concensus decision making to the next level.
We are still using a governing process designed for the 1700′s when it took ten days to travel by horse from Philadelphia to Washington. In the present age of IM and email why do we need district representatives? Why not let the people vote directly on bills brought to the Federal House? There are only about 10 significant votes per week . We can let the current house members keep their jobs for a while, but their new role is to introduce legislation and provide info for the voters so that they make educated decisions. Folks will take time out from watching DWTS each week to participate in real democracy. This will become the ultimate reality show including viewer participation.
You wanna protect the environment? Stop buying shit.
Lol. You are right. Not buying shit would solve almost all of this. I'm really a greenster hippie;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cbUAwCE7JVY#t=48s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxmtreWQoVs&feature=player_profilepage
This is a rather anonymous SONG-CHANT-RANT offering, that will hopefully unify our message on the streets. Imparting some basic historical information that has lead to the continued debasing of free forms of Government. Where a select group of power seekers never seem to have enough of anything, including us.This is a very serious time for the FREE Global Community, our only weapon is Martin Luther King's legacy. They further try to discredit us with accusations of not having a coherent message when their only endgame is to further in-slave us! Abusing others until there is only two classes the Haves and Have-Not's. we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more
nothing’s been the same since jfk eisenhower warned us it would get this way a vast military-industrial-complex a vast military-industrial-complex
were out here to show the one percentors we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more
oly norquist pledged most congress (oly’ = satire oliver north)
to his power lil’ oly’ norquist pledged most congress (piglet)
to his power
we’ know who you are were’ tired of our voices not counting
we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more
were out on the streets to get our “countries” back
until foreign trade benefits---the 99%
were out on the streets to get our “countries” back
until foreign trade benefits---the 99%
were’ just not gonna’ take it no more were’ just not gonna’ take it no more were’ just not gonna’ take it no more
so, your’ spreadin’ democracy all over --the world your’ spreadin’ democracy all over --the world
it’s gotten’ so corrupt even we---don’t understand it!
so, your’ spreadin’ democracy all over --the world spreadin’ your’ democracy all over --the world
it’s gotten’ so corrupt even we---don’t understand it!
bring back our soldiers’s your cor-poor-et wars are all over bring back our soldiers’s your cor-poor-et wars are all over
were out here to show the one percentors we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more
it’s too bad we hav-at spell it out but liars never listen they just -run their mouths
a thousand point of light all over the world
a new world order the bil-dah-burgers can go to hell
were’ just not gonna’ take it no more were’ just not gonna’ take it no more were’ just not gonna’ take it no more------
were’ just not gonna’ take it no more!
krw4u5@yahoo.com
Good post! Yesterday I went to talk to some young people at a nearby university. I brought up OWS, one of them said, "I was at the Democratic National Convention and was shot by rubber bullets. I don't care." He was very angry and didn't want to hear a word.----- The anarchists are being used.
I think that is central to my fear. It's great to have all these ideas but we are suffering now. We need practical change, NOW.
The generation that saw the takeover of government in the 1960's, http://algoxy.com/psych/audio/military_eisenhower1_17_61.mp3 http://algoxy.com/psych/audio/jfk_secrecy.mp3 Needs to unify and educate the younger generation, but, even of them, there are unreasonable fears to using free speech in sharing what needs to be shared. Therefore, they need to gather and test each other for their capacity to share vital truths for survival. Then, create focus on using Article 5 of the constitution to defend the constitution.-----
A effort each evening to create a web conference to discuss Article 5 is beginning.--
http://www.articlevmeeting.info/
Comprehensive strategy.---
http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html
I think you're on to something. We are the next generation of revolutionaries and we need the perspective of people who have been there. I thnk I'll start another forum. Thanks!
Okay, let me know where it is and I'll join. elanuslecurus@lycos.com
Sorry, I don't know how to put up the link but it say "Hey, 1960's Revolutionaries....HELP!!!"
I saw that. It's called a thread. Copy and paste the url from the address bar after posting and past it into a text doc. I'll find it again.
At this point some clear purpose is needed around which to base a movement and there is nothing more clear and evident than challenging the fractional reserve lend practice because most of the disparity in earnings has occurred within the financials sector and the financials sector is the reason for the financial collapse of the economy - http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-objective-1-fractional-reserve-lending-is-a-cr
Fractional lending has nothing to do with fair and honest capitalism in fact fractional lending is counterfeit - fraud - theft!
Yes, calls for violence are levied by morons who do not understand the process of recover for civil losses within the legal system. If they had any sense they would be calling for a class action lawsuit against the government and financial institutions for their obvious criminal actions and consequential economic devastation, economic loss of livelihood, and emotional distress.
Another objective is to prosecute the criminal activity on wall street but it must start with the DoJ who is obstructing justice due to its revolving door of lawyers into the banking system, government, and back; it is the most heinous form of corruption in government where it is not possible to convict and hold the private sector accountable because of it has become a criminal organization within government.
Again, the need for a highly defined platform with definite leaders rears its head. My goodness, here in America even many activists simply can not accept the effectiveness this movement in its present form is already demonstrating, and it just got started.
Fight this strong impulse to clamp this movement down! Please!
Thank you, FreeRadical. Great name, btw:) I agree with alot of what you say( I read alot of your forum). Please keep educating and calling for an end to the corruption!
Thanks, Banjarama, for the affirmation and for contributing to efforts towards constructive social change!
It's a shame but I think moderates are a tiny minority.
I don't agree. ninety nine percent of Americans are not a tiny minority and among them is not a majority of Anarchist members.
Have you researched the founding members?
what do you mean by founding, Adbusters or the core group that started the NY occupation?
Core group. Namely David GraebeR.
Graeber is a really smart guy. He may have the world's most radical heart, or maybe not, but his role in OWS has been very open handed. It would be a mistake to say that Graeber is setting the goals or that whatever his favored form of governing is, is also the goal of Americans in support of this movement.
Dismantling elements of American Empire building is not radical. The idea has been floating around in government circles for a hundred years, maybe less. You can read elements of it in Teddy Roosevelt and many many earlier administrations. It has been an essential problem and issue of debate in America since its founding.
It is not an attack on democracy or even private capitalism. It is simply about questioning the assumptions of how we do capitalism. That doesn't take an overhaul of the kind I think you might mean. It doesn't mean an end to private corporations or democratic systems of governing.
Can I recommend a really good book? The "Tragedy of American Diplomacy" by American historian William Appleman. Not exactly radical but definitely thoughtful and influential even in a couple past White House administrations. It is a book about economic history and raises these questions totally outside of an anarchist mold.
All good points that I respect. Not sure that I can agree that this isn't an anarchist lead movement though. The anarchists are getting very restless that the public doesn't view this as an anarchist movement. They point to the website symbols (black/red colors and fist) and claim they thought it would be more obvious. I'm also starting to see more reference to them in the official statements.
Anarchists have never gotten a heavy toe-hold in America. I don't see it ever getting wide enough appeal but I think anarchist ideas have some influence.
There is some dynamic philosophy there that isn't worth nothing, but in this country even the unions are not that radical.
There also are plenty of uneducated kids in steel-toed boots who call themselves anarchists but are not -- they are garbage can kickers. I know we have that distinction down because you mentioned Graeber.
This is a correction. If nothing else, just be glad that irrelevant models of progressive politics are about to get a good funeral. Thank god. If I had to turn to some tired academic preaching some formula that hasn't been relevant since 1980 for one more year I think I would have stabbed myself with a pencil.
I guess the way I see it is, this is America. The powers that be went overboard, as they are wont to do, and the next 10 years is going to be a process of them basically lumping it hard, which is not only right, it's necessary.
The 99% thing sounds good. Too bad it's complete BS.
This "movement" represents more like the same old 10% at the very far left who want to incorporate the rest of the 90% into their way of doing things.
Sorry, ninety nine percent is based on numbers out of the census and every other agency describing the growing gap between rich and poor in this country. It is a fact not owned by anyone and so its not BS and not something that just sounds good. It is hard cold fact. can't argue with it, as it is beyond debate.
Sorry, it's nothing but a slogan for propaganda purposes. This "movement" is nowhere close to representing core values of the majority of or even subgroups of minorities in America and the lack of traction and falling support reflect that as people better understand who and what it's all about.
Can you back up your claim that there is a lack of traction? Hearings in congress and poll numbers alone would seem to contradict your statement one hundred percent, so I am at a loss as to how your analysis jibes with reality
Check the more recent polls. Support has fallen substantially as has interest in it generally.
Give us the links.
Interest in it generally? "Interest" is measured how, by polls or media coverage or congressional discussions of it or all those things or? Or your personal interest?
It would be great if we could talk about issues rather than do this second guessing in the shadows. It is really ineffectual
There are many and you can pick and choose whichever you want. No point in me doing it since you'll just want to argue the poll at that point. Regardless, among polls done earlier and later, the percentages for support have fallen.
Interest can be reflected in any number of objective ways. For one, the numbers of persons polled who have heard about it or know enough about it to comment which haven't changed much at all despite relatively high publicity. For another, objective trends reflected online as in Google, Twitter, etc. All are trending down significantly as shown here:
http://trends.google.com/trends?q=occupy+wall+street&ctab=0&geo=all&date=2011-10&sort=0
You got a very small bump recently from the Oakland stuff but then it headed right back down again and is approaching the level before OWS started. The same will be reflected in Twitter and other similar trends. Overall, interest in OWS is relatively tiny with such things as McDonald's McRib sandwich and obscure characters from the "Real Housewives of NJ" absolutely kicking its ass. lol
Sorry, as into it as you may be personally that's the fact beyond the castle walls.
they are not talking about the housewives of ny or nj in joint congressional subcommittees, despite the hit song "Money can't buy you class" sung by the bimbo of the year.
A song, by the way, that can make you want to shove a pencil in your ear
Which, as much as I might hate it, still represents the interests of the "99%."
Any way you want to count it, interest has fallen and, in fact, is not growing as some here might like to think. It was a small minority and it's becoming even smaller.
actually, I think the laziest couch potato in America is starting to OD on reality TV. Call me crazy, call me out of touch, but I swear I think I am sensing it.
It is a shame if that is true.:( We will have to relate to the majority of people or the movement will be fruitless.
they ARE the majority. They are not something that needs to be connected somehow to the majority.
Just read the polls of who supports.
I saw those number too, and was heartened. I was commenting on the lack of them here on the site and how that might translate to the masses soon. Supporting from your couch is nice and the power of the many can be harnessed, but we are in crisis and do need at least some action now. I am unquestionably behind the protest, I just hope maybe a moderate will appear soon to mobilize the base to affect quanifiable change.
The movement is chock full of moderates. I can't occupy overnight but I have attended the NY protest and Banja, your sense of it is not true.
eidos, I am greatful for your input. I absolutely support this thing and I think I needed to start this forum to hear the real people and refocus my attentions.
They may be "moderates" within the subset of those who are there but they are not even close to being moderates with respect to the general population.
That doesn't even make sense. I was there and I am in the general population. You don't know what you are talking about. You are just talking to talk.
Yep, and they're not the ones driving.
the ones driving, participating in the GAs have gone out of their way to keep it open and fluid, NOT back narrow platforms, so I not only disagree with you, the facts do nothing but support the exact OPPOSITE of what you are saying!
Only because all of those involved are like-minded individuals who represent only a tiny sliver of the "99%." Try bringing in the majority of Americans who have a very wide range and very divergent views and see how well that works. lol
Chicken Little said the sky was falling and the story so resonated it became a moral fable. Anyone can run around saying the Sky is Falling. Only a credible claim deserves any respect.
The polls, again, directly contradict what you are saying, rendering you Chicken Little. You can sign off "lol" on that, and only evoke pity thereby
They did try that and they are doing that, tapping into what is in fact the condition of the majority. That is what happens when the wealth gap in a nation like America widens so preposterously. It creates a rather resentful majority. Perhaps this is worrying you. What you could possibly fear from it is beyond me, but I will leave you to it.
Tapping into and attempting to leverage some elements of discontent among the population isn't the same thing as incorporating or representing those individuals and their core values.
For example, on an independent basis I may agree with some elements within Louis Farrakhan's movement. That doesn't mean that I support it overrall or with respect to most aspects of approach, values, etc. Quite to the contrary.
For pete's same Frankie. The park in NY is full of people who just have had it. They aren't home creating superstructures, some overarching movement. They represent themselves. they are their demands. Considering what Amercans are being forced to go through, who needs more than that? What do protesters want? They want to survive. Sheesh. Is that so hard? The middle class is living like animals. Lets stop worrying this protest to death
As I said, there are lots of people who have "had it" in various ways but that doesn't mean that they share much beyond that with OWS. Most of the things that are talked about by this "movement" aren't anything new and, in fact, OWS is very late to the party with a lot of it. You think that it's a shocker to conservatives that bailing out the banks was a bad idea? They've been screaming about that since before it happened. You think that it's a news flash to minority groups that unemployment and income distribution are issues? lol Sorry, while they may share concerns around various issues, that's a long way from being represented by or supporting the specific movement. You (generally) could have joined up with the Tea Party or, at the other extreme, Farrakan's movements with respect to specific issues that are the same. Why didn't you? Do you feel that they were representative of you? The same applies to OWS.
I agree about Rep objections to the bail out. I agree with some of that.
Farrakhan's group is a hate group. It is one of the only Black groups that made it onto the list compiled each year by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a racist hate group. I would never join a hate group.
The Tea Party has been co opted. And I am a leftist with a libertarian's love of individual rights.
This movement hasn't been co opted yet and all your criticisms of it are to make the kind of changes that would allow it to be co opted.
It does have traction and it is staying fluid and open and though it is not topping the pop charts it is not nothing either. I think all of that is very very good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxmtreWQoVs&feature=player_profilepage
This is a rather anonymous SONG-CHANT-RANT offering, that will hopefully unify our message on the streets. Imparting some basic historical information that has lead to the continued debasing of free forms of Government. Where a select group of power seekers never seem to have enough of anything, including us.This is a very serious time for the FREE Global Community, our only weapon is Martin Luther King's legacy. They further try to discredit us with accusations of not having a coherent message when their only endgame is to further in-slave us! Abusing others until there is only two classes the Haves and Have-Not's.
I feel that. Thank you.
Thank you Banjarama it was a project full of Love for the movement krw4u5@yahoo.com
OWS Leaders- if you want this movement to succeed you have to transfer this into a political entity - the sooner the better! Otherwise is no point...........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cbUAwCE7JVY#t=48s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxmtreWQoVs&feature=player_profilepage
This is a rather anonymous SONG-CHANT-RANT offering, that will hopefully unify our message on the streets. Imparting some basic historical information that has lead to the continued debasing of free forms of Government. Where a select group of power seekers never seem to have enough of anything, including us.This is a very serious time for the FREE Global Community, our only weapon is Martin Luther King's legacy. They further try to discredit us with accusations of not having a coherent message when their only endgame is to further in-slave us! Abusing others until there is only two classes the Haves and Have-Not's. we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more
nothing’s been the same since jfk eisenhower warned us it would get this way a vast military-industrial-complex a vast military-industrial-complex
were out here to show the one percentors we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more
oly norquist pledged most congress (oly’ = satire oliver north)
to his power lil’ oly’ norquist pledged most congress (piglet)
to his power
we’ know who you are were’ tired of our voices not counting
we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more
were out on the streets to get our “countries” back
until foreign trade benefits---the 99%
were out on the streets to get our “countries” back
until foreign trade benefits---the 99%
were’ just not gonna’ take it no more were’ just not gonna’ take it no more were’ just not gonna’ take it no more
so, your’ spreadin’ democracy all over --the world your’ spreadin’ democracy all over --the world
it’s gotten’ so corrupt even we---don’t understand it!
so, your’ spreadin’ democracy all over --the world spreadin’ your’ democracy all over --the world
it’s gotten’ so corrupt even we---don’t understand it!
bring back our soldiers’s your cor-poor-et wars are all over bring back our soldiers’s your cor-poor-et wars are all over
were out here to show the one percentors we’ just not gonna’ take it no more we’ just not gonna’ take it no more
it’s too bad we hav-at spell it out but liars never listen they just -run their mouths
a thousand point of light all over the world
a new world order the bil-dah-burgers can go to hell
were’ just not gonna’ take it no more were’ just not gonna’ take it no more were’ just not gonna’ take it no more------
were’ just not gonna’ take it no more!
krw4u5@yahoo.com