Forum Post: Many of us are concerned with the inequalities of Capitalism, but we are becoming ashamed to affiliate ourselves with OWS.
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 22, 2011, 3:19 a.m. EST by FriendlyObserver
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This content is user submitted and not an official statement
The movement is sloppy and dysfunctional
The Movement is not sloppy and disfunctional. It is actually more focused and has a clearer message than any other movement I know of. The Movement's demand is to "end the monied corruption of our Democracy". What could be clearer than that?
I support OWS. But, allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute. How many times have we heard that line? The Tea Party said it; they called it 'Crony Capitalism'. What makes OWS different than the hundreds of people who have come before OWS and had that mission statement? How will OWS succeed where others have failed? Isn't the American People tired of someone saying they are going to save us? What message tells me how to help the effort? Are we mere bystanders? How do they join in the fight? We get the message, but have no idea of how OWS plans to accomplish this? A goal without a plan. Isn't that sloppy and dysfunctional.
That is the great thing about OWS. It is a new way of doing things. Most groups fail as they work forwards. They start their movement, and then try to plan ahead. They have no clear goals. They often just want to be somehow important or push some political agenda, or make money somehow.
We are the opposite. We know what our goal is. We are working backwards from that goal, and are formulating plans of how to get there. Now that is new thinking. It is 21st Century thinking, and many movements are still in the 20th Century mindset. We are already protesting directly against the problem, in other words Wall Street. That has also never been done before, protesting against Wall Street directly. That is part of the plan - raising public awareness. People are a bit confused. They have never seen a movement with such a clear goal. They think "is it really that simple?". It is. People are beginning to catch on fast. The love the Occupy Movement.
We know what our goal is. We are working backwards from that goal, and are formulating plans of how to get there. Now that is new thinking.
No not really. Indiana Jones beat you to it. His goal was to find the Lost Ark. He formulated his plans as he went along. He called it making it up as you go. I guess it's a hero-complex thing.
He found the ark though! :D
Sure. The author of Indiana Jones may have discovered this approach. We are putting it into practice, and we will achieve our goal.
It's called storytelling. Where you plan a story by writing the ending first and then going back to the beginning and roughing out a path to get the ending in a very orderly fashion. Although the first draft is inevitably doomed to be a nightmare of a mess. Which is fine. You never get to the final draft until you write the first draft. And in the novels, we all know the good guys beat the bad guys. Yeah! Occupy Wall Street. Boo! Wall Street.
The objective of OWS is clear. Meanwhile the process to achieve that goal is moving apace. The Movement has only been going two months. Already it is established with a major presence in nearly every big city in the world, and in smaller centres beyond that also. We are assembling ourselves and plans are being drawn up. You saw the demonstrations in NYC on Nov 17. What a brilliant success they were, both in the planning and operational sense. This is only the start. The OWS Movement, and wider, the whole Occupy Movement is a highly cohesive group of liked minded people. We are a movement which is "on the move".
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I hope the 'Financial Nazis' on Wall Street get their faces melted off.
In one sentence:
What is your goal?
In one sentence:
Our goal is to end the monied corruption of our Democracy.
Surely, you mean the corruption of our Democratic Republic, right?
And by 'monied corruption', you would be referring to bribery and greed -- not money itself, right?
You wouldn't be speaking with a forked tongue, now would you?
I think you have the general idea. :)
What? bullshit, OWS has no clear goal or leadership. Yes, they want to eliminate corporate influence in politics to reduce economic inequality, but that is just as vague as the TEA Party's goal of cutting taxes and reducing the size of government to shrink the deficit and at least the TEA Party has methods to accomplish this. OWS needs centralized leadership and defined goals if it wants to truly accomplish anything.
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Please, please. OWS is faaaar more self-congratulatory than the friggin TEA party. Enough with /that/, sir.
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It's sloppy, dysfunctional and nothing more than a pissed off homeless clusterfuck.
There's nothing stopping you, FriendlyObserver, from stating your case in person at any of the #ows gatherings around the country/world.
What are you afraid of? Rejection?
It's a collective movement. Bring your mates.
See what you can accomplish in a short time in a friendly space.
So is my wife but that doesn't mean I don't love her. (-;
This got bumped up for some reason.
Why be ashamed?
The system that #ows is protesting is quite simply criminal in both practise and intent.
Currently the system is trying to foment war with Iran, against the wishes of the vast majority of Americans, just like the illegal invasion of Iraq.
Nobody deserves to be driven under by a corrupt and criminal element controlling their government.
What the people deserve is choice, and they don't even have that today.
Revolution might be the only way to get rid of the criminal elements of our current politicians.
Why? Too impatient to go through the growing pains of this movement. That's the problem with Americans these days, they want instant results.
I came here as an aging, blue-collar worker rather enthusiastic about what I perceived OWS to be, but leave disillusioned and convinced that the movement is intent in destroying the people who write my checks and feed my family, thereby destroying me in the process as necessary collateral damage. Working hard and saving capital is not a welcome thought among the OWS people I experienced.
Don't be so hard on yourself. You know you are good. Why does media always try to convince us we are the bad ones. We ALL know who the bad ones are so lets not allow them to -change the subject- on us. We are focusing on the white-collar criminals and frauds in positions of power that created this whole mess.
We are good.
The point of all this is that America has been robbed. We are not the ones on trial here. We KNOW who the frauds are, and we are highlighting the infractions even if the media will not.
Then don't affiliate yourself with us & start you're own dam movement! ;-)
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Then how has it eclipsed all other such movements in two months?
This, by the way is their new "on message" tactic against Occupy Wall St., so disgustingly and effectively employed by Karl Rove. First you pinpoint an agenda - "We want the Occupy movement to lose popularity." Then you use your huge influence over the media and polsters to trumpet - "The occupy movement is losing popularity!" The you're talking heads discuss "Why is the occupy movement losing poupularity?" They thus dictate the narritive and sell it to the people in the hopes that it actually will make the movement lose poularity.
It usually works, because most people are trend followers, not trend setters. That is the amazing power of monopoly control of the media. It was used constantly, relentlessly, under the Bush administration to silence critics.
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This isn't a movement ... it is a protest.
Balony
That is what we call democracy. There are so many issues that have been swept under the rug for so long that they are all coming out at the same time but the basic fact is this is ALL about justice and fairness.
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Sloppy and dysfunctional, huh? Read this all the way through and then we'll see if you feel the same way. :)
http://pastebin.com/gm2UV08D The New Common Sense
its as simple as removing money from politics. getmoneyout.com
then many of you are not ready to change the system. if being ashamed stops you from doing the most fundamental thing there is to do as an American, then you ought to be more than ashamed. I'm sorry its not a pleasant experience for you. If you don't like it, don't come posting here. Just go away and ignore it as "many of" you have done for three decades.
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The Revolution has a theme song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8&feature=related
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
The Revolution starts here! No one can silence the Revolution!
http://www.youtube.com/user/councilonsper#p/u/0/l37RhdFGVsM
it could be a lot clearer if they offered a way to do this. It's a bit like saying - "end child abuse". I'm all for it, but how does camping in a park help? I am not being sarcastic. I really don't understand what this movement really wants to accomplish and i have been watching very closely from before it even started. I now see on this website, it is drifting towards a communist revolution which would leave everyone much worse off than we are now. I would like to see this group make a push to repeal specific pieces of legislation or to submit a proposal to a group of sympathetic congress people. I now see that this website is trying to block free speech with the lame excuse that people might push "schmutt" here. Please explain clearly how naming a political figure and directly discussing his or her ideas, threatens this group? Unless this group wants to create their own political party and put forward a candidate or two, it is still going to be important to evaluate and make informed decisions about the political process that continues to dominate our society. I am not saying it can be fixed and in truth i don't believe the real solutions we need can possibly come out of this system, but we are here and now and pretending that the politics doesn't have any role in what we are trying to accomplish is not realistic.
peace and love stay solid - don't block free speech here, that's fascism!
ozwaldo. Your main points here are form a party and have leaders representing that party. Both of these things alienates people. Our movement is beautful as it is not a party and does not have leaders. By having no political allegience, it means all people are welcome. It is not left wing or right wing - it just flies. The Movement does not have leaders. That means that anyone can represent and speak for the Movement. You can. I can. Everyone can. The Movement has a goal, one goal - to end the monied corruption of our Democracy. As someone else mentioned here, "if you keep punching, the Champ will fall".
But only if you are actually punching the champ. So much of what OWS does and says is off the mark. You're not going to KO anyone punching the turnbuckle.
A long-term outlook of the movement may very well be to replace existing system, but surely there must be steps necessary to pave that way requiring action in the short-term outlook.
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The long term outlook of this movement is that its bravado will wither by the next election.
"How does sleeping in a park change things?" Just look at history, look at what other acts of civil disobedience has achieved. What would the world be like if there was not civil rights or labor movement? What would it be like today without a womens movement?
And which of those movements slept in a park?
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Well they have really got me confused when they censored Ron Lawl and in my eyes he is the only one that is not bought and paid for... I am losing respect for OWS
Don't think of OWS as part of the solution. Just notice that it's a reflection of our sick society. Disorganized, meaningless, disrespectful, extremisms, not united... That's us.That's America in a nut shell.
OWS was never going to become the solution. It's just another part of the economic problem coming forward, a group of people who feel entitled to a higher standard of living than the rest of the world gets, but don't want work 80+ hours a week to accomplish the dream.
If you dislike America so much, why are you still here? I here the weather's nice and cold at the North Pole this time of year. You can hang your snobby hat up on it. And watch the effects of global climate change first hand. Your party's rhetoric got shot down dead. Because Wall Street took the money and fled. Exposing upper society for what it really is - crooks.
I'm not there. Hence the (Ottawa, ON) beside my name. Speaking of Snobby, did you even know there was a country between America and the North pole? What party? What does OWS being a sign of economic illness have to do with climate change?
I apologize for not noticing the ON. Yes. And no, I'm not familiar with your countries parties. I was referring to the Republican party here. Strong advocates for deregulation, they 'freed the greed' to run rampant in our financial system, thus causing the economic crisis on Wall Street, and continue to try to deceive the public into thinking climate change is a myth so they can get the public to go along with more deregulation.
Either everyone is deceived, or everyone is think they are being "deceived".
Don't you see a bigger social problem there?
Do I hear a conspiracy theory coming at me? Aliens among us. No, I think it is simple propaganda as it has been used throughout history by various governments.
OK, so everything is propaghanda for some greater agenda. We can freely use the internet and change Television stations and listen to countless radio programs from a variety of sources, yet the Government manages to maintain a bad illusion and a white lie. Nothing is real.
When will you understand, that is human nature? You can't change human nature, you just need to accept it and play along. If 60% of the population thinks Climate Change is real, and 40% thinks it's not... the real question is, how do you profit from that? Do you sell a product to the 40%, than run a campaign to convince the 60% they should join the 40%? Or do you sell a product to the 60%, knowing they are a majority?
Everything is run by business strategy. That's it, that's all. It won't change.
Did I accuse everything and everyone of using propaganda? No, I said a select group out there is muddying the facts and putting out false or misleading facts, knowing them to be false. It is human nature to be individuals and make a choice how you want to live and what values you let guide you. If you think deception is okay, then you will do it. If you don't think it is okay, you won't. That is human nature. If you're theory of human nature was that everybody is programmed to act and behave the same way, then we would all act like robots and never have any disagreements on how we behave.
EVERYONE MUDDLES FACTS! We are all one and the same.It's our nature to deceive people in order to get ahead, just as I am deceiving you, and you are trying to deceive me. There's no evidence for anything said these days, there's too much media and not enough information.
I've met a lot of people and from my personal experience in dealing with people some people CHOOSE to deal straighter than others. It's true, there are universal traits that we share in common, but we can think and decide what traits serve us best. If you want to believe that everybody CHOOSES to deceive, that's your choice.
We have no choice but to muddle facts, we aren't perfect. We don't have all the answers. Even someone with good intentions who truly believes in Global Warming and warns the world with textbooks of data, could just be a victim of an original white lie that people went of their way to prove. The question isn't "Is this true or not?" The question is "Am I prepared to live in one choice or the other?" or "Which is the way I prefer to see things, and what are the consequences of believing in that?" http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/11/20/statisticians-can-prove-almost-anything-a-new-study-finds/
That required some serious brain laps. I concede your point. It is impossible to know if I deceived another person myself if I was an unknowing victim in the chain perpetuated by the original white lie. It's a paradox. Even if I intend to be honest, it is impossible to ever be sure if I am or not. That is the politest way anyone's ever accused me of lying. ha.
Exactly. Even if you are right and, to you, the OWS is disorganized and dysfunctional, for example, the people who actually 'believe' in it think that it is quite the opposite. Mind you, the people organizing OWS may be from a dysfunctional family and see this movement as a grand change from their normal standard of living. Where as you (or I perhaps) could be from a Corporate business perspective, where the tents should align perfectly, and the everything should be run by the clock. But isn't that exactly what the "select group" would want? Completely controlled and systematically structured? A structure that depends on their products and services; such as clocks, rulers, numbers, language, libraries, food products, etc.?
Or is that just exactly what most people want, and exactly what is provided?
Nothing will ever really makes sense to a human being. We are only capable of so much intelligence. Sometimes we believe in the Theory of Relativity and apply it as a Universal Law. Sometimes we break the speed of light.
The best approach, I find, is to try to understand as much observable knowledge as you see fit, rather than a simplistic, yet deep understanding and belief in one theory. You will just find yourself lost and searching for more answers, because the facts and the truth will never be clear. Unfortunately, the Truth is God (Not religion, mind you).
Looking up at the Universe and trying to understand everything is comparable to a dog looking up at a human, trying to understand everything we do. The Dog will act as human as it can, and assume the human is another dog. It will not understand where the dog food is processed, or how the car works, it just accepts it. Even if you tried to show the dog, it just isn't capable of understanding. It has limits.
We have limits too.
I'll have to think about the 'as much observable knowledge as you see fit' part for a while.
You do it every day, you just never thought about it before. It's the very basic instinct of survival.
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