Forum Post: Looters and anti-patriots
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 7, 2011, 9:11 p.m. EST by burleson1970
(72)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Has anyone of these people ever read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand? What the demonstrators are asking for is impossible. Do the math; the country doesn't have the money. And in any case why should a nickle dime or penny of mine go to them? Read more.... http://www.nationalfederalism.com
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." --John Rogers
Atlas Shrugged is a work of fiction based on an ideology.
Well hell, so is 1984 by George Orwell. Fiction is often a useful way of conveying a particular message. It's stupid to condemn a book just because it's not merely some list of facts and figures.
I don't mind the use of an analogy to a work of fiction, but I don't think it should be used as the basis for an argument. The author has a lot of room to make things up in a work of fiction. Also, I personally find Ayn Rand's objectivism to be flawed.
Well remember where she grew up: in the Soviet Union, where her family's business was ruined by the government, and where people were taught to follow the party line rather than think for themselves. So in her case I think her fiction is based largely on her life experiences.
Ayn Rand is a total moron who would destroy the economy and this country if she had her way. The slash everythin and stop spending approach doesn't work. Period.
Total moron? No more so than George Soros.
Actually there have been no demands made by OWS. So what are you talking about? Yes, there are protesters with personal demands but none from OWS. Do the math. Your post does not compute.
Most of us (actually I may go so far as say all) Want the government to end it's reckless spending on things that don't help it's own people.
Its no secret that OWS voted obama into office. You have yourselves to thank for reckless government spending.
You are probably right, many people there right now probably did vote in Obama. But it wasn't him who started the spending in other countries
Wise words. Well maxing out the nation's credit card isn't helping anyone. Good lord, look at what they do: raise the debt ceiling, spend more, raise the ceiling, spend more. There are better ways to run an economy than the way a food runs a credit card account. Nice thing about the Internet is that we can debate like this and post our own website with our own ideas. Gotta love that. http://www.brucespad.com/nf/economy.html
You are right, but I would venture to say that most of our money doesn't stay within our country.
True, and also we borrow trillions from abroad. One day we will have no choice but to default, and those creditors will reposess America in some way....
Right, our idiot leaders have mortgaged our future to the chinese.
Not just that, we bribe the Pakistani government with millions. Give millions to Israel. Fund countries we consider borderline terrorist... We BRIBE countries to like us.
I agree with helping Israel since they're surrounded by islamofascists. As for pakistan, f--k them. They were an ally, and now we find out they were knowingly harboring bin Laden. We should pull out of Afghanistan and invade them not to mention Iran, before I'mADinnerJacket comes up with a nuke. http://www.nationalfederalism.com
LMAO, I'madinerjacket. Good one.
Israel is there because they chose to take land that already belonged to those "Islamofascists". And that is just the tip of the ice berg. There are so many more countries. As for Pakistan "Knowing" Bin Laden was there. I will agree a few people in the government were Bin Laden spies. But the whole government didn't know. And there is n reason to invade Pakistan except that you just don't like them.
But I am glad of one thing. You have shown how ignorant and intolerant you are :)
Only a liberal resorts to name calling. Only a liberal tells someone what they should think. Only a liberal suggests censorship.
Really? What does that have to do with anything sir?
You called someone ignorant and intolerant because they had a different point of view than you.
No, because they showed ignorance and intollerance to another region
I'm sorry but you are dead wrong! That is your view of that region that the other individual does not share. Calling them names because they do not share your view is juvenile.
It is typical of elitist liberals.
If no one informed you that what you are saying is wrong, or ignorant of what is right, how would you ever learn anything?
If you read the above thread you will see that the person I was speaking of simply had a different point of view. He was not wrong it was just a different point of view. There was no need to call him ignorant or intolerant.
It was directed at you.
Oh I'm sorry. I didn't understand that. In that case go fuck yourself!
Ignorant and intolerant? No. I just have different views than the leftists here. I enjoy a good debate. As for Israel, it's a piece of land the size of Massachusetts. I often wonder what all the fuss over that is. Saudi Arabia has hundreds of times as much land by comparison. I look to the day when the Israelis and Palestinians resolve their differences, either by a single multiethnic state or a Palestinian state. Been long in coming.
I meant your hate for Pakistan and negative images of Muslims in general
Actually I have close friends who are Muslims... They hate what is going on in the Middle East as much as I do. They're not all islamofascists; I reserve that word for theocratic leaders and terrorists.
http://www.nationalfederalism.com
So let's begin by ending welfare once and for all.
Good idea! Let's start with Corporate welfare. How about we stop allowing companies to hide their profits in off shore tax shelters while claiming their losses right here in the U.S. so as to claim billions in tax "refunds" paid for by We the People. After that, we could make sure they actually pay their taxes. Next we could go after the tens of billions in tax payer funded subsidies to the oil companies. Oh how I could go on...
END CORPORATE WELFARE NOW!
Corporations do not pay taxes. Taxes are an expense of doing business. So, as with all business expenses, they are passed onto the end users of the product or service of the corp. That means you. You and I pay all the taxes of the corporations in higher prices. You have fallen for the us vs them clap trap of the politicians. You have been used/played to help get them reelected. The system has been rigged by bought and paid for politicians, in BOTH parties, to favor the big corporations. We don't have free markets anymore.
I admit, I did fall for some of the clap trap. No more. Our so called representation has been compromised.
Amen brother!
Don't even get me started on subsidies. ;-)
If I ran a corporation I'd do the same thing, to prevent looters like the IRS from taking MY profits away from me. No one has the moral right to steal from anyone else, based on "need" as Rand wrote. Eventually the economy will rebound and we'll have jobs again. It's not a perfect system but A=A, things are what they are. And we need a common national identity and pride in what our country has accomplished.. which is why I spent most of my vacation week building http://www.nationalfederalism.com. I couldn't fit in in the Tea Party because I'm an atheist... oh well.
So in other words given the chance you too would steal from the American people. If you're not going to help, get the Hell out of the way.
Steal, no. It's about trade. I make a pair of shoes and sell it. Exchange for exchange; it's imperfect but the only system that has stood the test of time.
Yes but you agreed that you would hide your profits, file your losses, pay nothing in Federal taxes yet take a tax "refund" from people who actually work for a living. Or should I interpret "I'd do the same thing," as something else?
My tax refund would buy a lot of Nikes, which in turn bolsters the economy. Strong corporations tend to expand and create jobs. No one down there on Wall Street has created a single job; in fact they've cost NYC some $2 million in overtime--taxpayer money. And look at all that litter. Guess the tree huggers opted out of this one. http://www.nationalfederalism.com
So it's OK for corporations to steal, but when a poor mother gets on welfare, it's a problem?
Corporations do not steal, generally... with some notable exceptions (e.g. Enron). As they grow, in a booming economy, they create jobs. My own company is clever enough to be growing during a recession and we're hiring. It can be done. And by the way my job has never stolen from me. In fact I get a paycheck from them. It's not a lot, as a drug counselor, but it pays my mortgage.... http://www.nationalfederalism.com
"Corporations do not steal, generally..."
Uhhh...whatever you are drinking I would like some of that .....please....
Actually I'm on the wagon. Although I'm not at all sure the water here in Brockton, MA is healthy.....
http://www.nationalfederalism.com
You know Nikes are made in Vietnam right? Probably not. You do now.
So you would skirt the law to steal tax payer dollars while avoiding paying your own, only to spend that money on a foreign sweatshop.
Start drinking again. Seriously.
Nikes are made in Vietnam because the labor force here priced themselves out of the international market. I could care less where they're made; they make for a good jog.
Why? Why is that the first thing to go?
I want you to think for a while on all of the other things that America wastes it's money on and provide a good reason why welfare should be the first to go.
I can bet that you can't, because you are just following the structured way of thoughts that have been designed for your convenience. So you don't have to hurt your brain thinking about tough topics that effect the WHOLE WORLD
My hard earned dollars are mine, and not the property of some lazy-ass welfare recipient. I am a patriot and a nationalist, and we will be victorious over your pathetic leftist movement. http://www.nationalfederalism.com
Yet they ARE the property of a corrupt Pakistan government?
As I said already, nationalists believe in the military. And if we wanted to we could overrun Pakistan in a new york minute. Except I'd prefer we went after Iran; after all we got 'em sandwiched between Iraq and Afghanistan. Get rid of I'mADinnerJacket and that tyrant of an ayatollah.
http://www.nationalfederalism.com
Obamas' 2012 Re-election Finance Director is the son of BANK OF AMERICAS former CEO.... the guy who got us in this mess!!! Keeping it all in the Family
No honor among thieves, apparently. http://www.nationalpatriotism.com
sorry I meant http://www.nationalfederalism.com
what about state banks, by and for the people, like south dakota? each state could issue new currency backed by the US treasury (not the fed), and people would make a choice to convert their federal reserve notes to state currency.
America’s Legalized Corruption The American people are on the verge of a rude awaking when they find out how fragile their system really is in relation to the rest of the world. Everyone knows that there is more tolerance for mistakes and misunderstanding between friends than enemies. The United States standing in the world is probably at the lowest level ever. The fact that the United States is one of the wealthiest nations in the world that owes and is borrowing more money from the international monetary system does not help the situation. The on going federal twin deficits that keep on growing are the biggest threat to our national security. With oil and our military foreign policy playing a major role in these deficits.
Those who will defend the wicked policies of the Bush Administration will point back to 9/11 as the Holy Grail. Saying we have been attacked declaring a War on Terror, which is another abstract war that can’t be won in the manner we are going about it. So many of America’s priorities are out of line and so many of the policies are out of balance it is having a compounding negative effect on the global economy.
The children of the American taxpayers today will inherit the problems and debt of nation. In the past our forefathers left a nation to their children with more assets than liabilities. This may not be said in the future because of the short slightest of many of our government actions and policies. On the current course America and the world is heading, it will not be long before the global economy implodes. With so much legalized corruption within the American system today there is little to no hope things will change for the better.
Only revolutionary changes in the American and global systems from top to bottom will correct the problem we face today. Such as the right to bare firearms in the Constitution must be change to the right to medical care without losing your home. The cost of medical insurance coverage is one of the major factors that’s driving the nation into bankruptcy. The rules, laws and enforcement on the lobbyists, loopholes and earmarks must change from night to day. Basically the whole system needs to be turn up side down with many of the leaders of today paying back the system for their self-center acts of greed. For too long America has been led by leaders who are more concerned about their image and pockets than what is in the best interest of the public they serve.
http://globalcrier.blogspot.com/search?q=corruption
You lack the intelligence to understand this movement. I'm surprised you were even able to figure out how to login to this forum.
What’s YOUR occupation?!!!
Your nickle dime or penny are not worth anything anymore you can thank LBJ and Nixon. Save old coins that have some silver or copper in them.
Debates between folks from the "far right" and the "far left" can be quite interesting and definitely animated; I'm especially interested in such debate because I've been at both ends of the political spectrum. So I set up a forum for this (and other) purpose:
http://nationalfederalist.hoop.la/displayForum
YES that is exactly it. I think we need a new Constititutional Convention to bring us back to the rationalism of Hamilton in particular. http://www.nationalfederalism.com
Thanks OP for showing up and giving us a mini lesson in everything wrong with this country.
We're out there fighting for you and you don't even know it.
Why should this movement adopt the Tea Party's reading list? There is a certain laughable cluelessness in your dismay that the world doesn't share your world view.
I don't expect the whole world to share my views. However as an American with first amendment rights I will gladly and gleefully throw them in the face of those whose views will destroy our country.
The Tea Party is limited in that they push a belief in a god who does not exist.
what are you even referring to? what do you think they want thats going to come out of your pocket?
They want the money I've fairly traded for my Toyota Corolla. Damn it's getting late and I gotta get ready to be picked up at midnight for the overnight bus ride to the Big Apple. Maybe I'll see some people I used to know from my leftie days. Or maybe we'll just drink coffee and patrol the subways. Either way... OK what am I forgetting. First aid kit. 2-way radios. Water bottle. Oh yeah.... Clothes. That might help.
also your money for a toyota corolla wasn't exaclty a fair trade, i'm pretty sure you got the shit end of the stick on that one haha, i only say that cause i owned a corolla once.
Who wants money? I haven't heard any protesters demanding money? It sounds to me like you think the protest is about class ware fare, the have nots wanting from the have's. It's a common misconception the media is portraying, but thats not the case, not even close.
Ummm, their statement demands $trillions in social programs. I don't think you paid attention to their impossible list of demands.
L8R folks http://www.nationalfederalism.com
post what list you think they're demanding?
whose list is that???? so far the only list they've actually put out has not asked for anything unfortunately and only specified what they're angry about and it basically comes down to corrupt politicians and corporations acting with impunity. if your referring to that link as theirs, which i'm guessing your not because it clearly has your name on the website as being yours, it's definitely not OWS
Well I've been there, done that, seen the same signs and the same banners usually from the same old anti-American organizations. And they continue to argue the same points, which the list I mentioned summarizes quite well. By the way I've posted a rebuttal to most of the "demands": http://www.brucespad.com/nf/critique.html
by the way you guys are welcome on my FB page. Love a good debate, even there. http://www.facebook.com/bruce.burleson
By the way plans to patrol with the Guardian Angels tomorrow in NYC. To protect protesters even though I disagree with most of them. That's part of patriotism--looking out for each other even when we don't see eye to eye.
Hm, as it stands, to post on my blog you have to send an email which I then copy and paste. Only a few responses. Gotta be a better way than that.
http://www.nationalfederalism.com
Geez, this works really well. Gotta figure out how to put a message board like this on http://www.nationalfederalism.com And of course the left would be invited; after all, only 2 people here have insulted me for my politics so far. LOL
Troll. Get Off. This isn't Yahoo! Answers or some other random place for you to argue and voice your opinions or ask stupid dogmatic questions for us to answer.
Although, what some of these people are asking, in particular that 5 year old Lloyd, are retarded.
However, if you're not proposing alternative ideas and are just here to criticize, you're trolling and need to go back to Yahoo! Answers or find something else to do.
Debate means participation and Troll has as much right to do that as anyone else. That's why we have a 1st Amendment.
http://www.nationalfederalism.com
This isn't a debate site. Like I said this isn't Yahoo! Answers. You have every right to debate but this isn't the place and you aren't welcome here.
Funny how you say it isn't a debate site; virtually everything I've seen here is debate of issues important to people. Anyway, I've no intention of leaving, but you're all welcome to debate all you want on the board at http://www.nationalfederalism.com
Hey! LOL. No one is submitting posts to my blog. Not fair that the left gets all the debate. Ah I know what I need to do, attach an external blog to nationalfederalism.com and then it'll get results.
I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to defeat today's Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above economic and political platform.
Nope... I was running for Congress as an independent until I realized I'd be better off helping rebuild a nationalist movement based on the original ideas of Hamilton not to mention Rand. We learn best from the great minds preceding us. We will rise again a mighty nation that no one screws with. http://www.nationalfederalism.com
I have to admit, for all my disagreements with the current movement, I'm impressed with the turnout. I recall on Feb 18, 2003, 500,000 people marching on Washington before the Iraq War broke out. If this movement does things like that, we nationalists might have to do the same...... http://www.nationalfederalism.com
I do have fond memories of that. The crowd was so huge that, as a photographer, I ran for blocks and blocks but COULD NOT find the front of the march (to get a good shot at it advancing). We nationalists could learn a lesson or two from that sort of organizing. Hell, even Jefferson once said a little rebellion once in a while is a good thing. Bet he'd be out there today, on his horse. lol.... http://www.nationalfederalism.com
All the demonstrators are asking for is accountability, transparency, and honesty- that shouldn't be thought of as "impossible."
Check this guy out. Does a great job of explaining why most of the demands of the protestors can never work out. We'd go broke--government and the rich and the rest of us--by the end of 2012! Check out the video; it's really well done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY8LKII_MNA
Sure we have the money. Or the resources at least. Time to think outside of the box (lets recycle that box while were at it). There are 5 or is it 6 billion souls on this planet. The resources are there for all of us to live a meaningful life, based on the UN Charter of Human Rights if (big if and that IMO is why we are on the streets all over the world). This means that we live in harmony (I know, get out the violins) with all systems on the planet. It can be done. It will be done. The will for the means to make it happen come from the 99%. So get out there and make it happen. We love you.
We really don't have the money. We're $15 trillion in debt already. This guy explains it pretty well on YouTube, check it out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY8LKII_MNA
O wow a guy on you tube that for sure is a creditable source because it would be dangerous to think for yourself just fallow the loudest voice that's the safe path.
He knows what he's talking about. As do I. I was not born yesterday; I grew up during the Cold War. Capitalism is it and we need to make the creative best of it. http://www.nationalfederalism.com That's why I'm a patriot and a nationalist and not one of these loonies out on the picket lines.
At the end of her life, Ayn Rand lived on Social Security and accepted Medicare so her self-caused lung cancer could be treated at the taxpayers' expense. This, after spending her adult life mocking the reports that smoking was causing lung cancer.
She is a FANTASTIC model of personal responsibility /snark
Slaves ate the food their masters fed them. What hypocrites.
Yea, some did and some ran away, were killed for the sake of freedom and others formed the underground railroad.
Ayn Rand, after preaching differently her entire life, chose to partake of the master's goodies rather than die for her principles.
Anyway, the point I was replying to is "this will never work, have you read Ayn Rand" and the moral of the story was, well, it worked for Ayn Rand. She got humane treatment at the hands of a system she would have abolished had she had her way. She also failed to "save for her future" which is what her disciples are always telling us we should do.
No one on the right is arguing against Social Security or Medicare. We just need to eliminate waste and corruption in the system. National Patriotism is devoted to that. http://www.nationalpatriotism.com
Social Security and Medicare are often characterized as welfare programs though, even though we DO pay into them.
We pay in, but we get something out. It's not a free ride like welfare. I'm against just handing money out to people; as a drug counselor I see people selling their EBT cards for drug money all the time. It's a failed program and needs to go. Nationalists, patriots, federalists will rebuild a great nation on the ashes of the present mess! Feel free to post comments on my right wing site since I've been posting mine here, lol.... http://www.nationalfederalism.com
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out : )
You did not answer why welfare is at the top of your list of the waste and corruption you want to eliminated.
Because it's proven to be a disaster of a program since its inception, as opposed to social security and medicare which, though flawed, are at least successful. READ AND POST YOUR COMMENT on http://www.nationalfederalism.com
why can't we have a civil conversation about REAL problems that exist? the two wars that have been going on for 10 YEARS is a much bigger waste than our welfare system, oh, and everything else. It's the most enormous waste of money our country has ever seen, but we all seemed to forgotten about that.
I posted this earlier today, the banks also profit from social service programs:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-more-americans-that-go-on-food-stamps-the-more/#comment-29244
Why am I not surprised.... Everyone wants their piece of the federal pie, and the pie plate is emptying fast. If we don't do something about the debt and the deficit soon, we're really in deep doo doo. http://www.nationalfederalism.com
It's keeping children housed and fed barely. I think ending welfare during a period of high unemployment without giving people access to things like affordable childcare, education and job training would another sort of disaster. Thinking about it actually gives me a sick feeling in the pit of stomach...but not you I guess.
No, not me. I've been homeless. I've been poor. I've been in Harvard Square with a carload of shit and nowhere to go. But now I own a home and am a licensed professional. People need to learn to take control of their lives
i feel sorry for you burleson. you work with the dregs of society, and when that is all you see day in and day out, a person is bound to resent them. if we could all be reasonable and treat people with civility when debating issues, we might be able to accomplish something rather than just lob insults back and forth.
I resent your calling my opioid-dependent clients the dregs of society. These are intelligent people who screwed up their lives, as I once did with alcohol. Now they're finding jobs (don't ask me where...) getting clean etc. Agreed on the need for civility.
They are taking all the jobs that the OWS people don't want and actually turning their lives around