Forum Post: Let's Move ...
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 10, 2011, 11:35 p.m. EST by nichole
(525)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Thinking strategy ... here's a proposal, something to consider. Recent OWS developments are promising, indeed. I can't even express how thrilled I am to be witnessing what could truly be The Great American Awakening. Winter is coming, Occupations are threatened by external forces, and many Occupiers may believe that any kind of temporary physical retreat would be an admittance of defeat. I don't see it like that. I'm thinking that we may wish to tone down our presence as we work through current difficulties, attempt to articulate our grievances, and really get at the soul of this Movement. Let's prepare for Spring. Throughout the winter months we can work on our substance (underground) regardless of whether or not our physical presence is maintained. Photograph images of the Civil Rights Movement should serve as an inspiration, as they document protesters operating with a dignity and discipline that is truly awe-inspiring -- we are not there, yet. And, allow our opposition to think we are no longer a threat and let down their guard. They'll be in for a surprise when we arise again, far stronger than they ever imagined we could be.
Tweets are coming out now that the mayor demanded an end to the Oakland camp and that they are about to be raided.
They have the money and support now - set up some headquarters and protest peacefully and in an organized manner. The entire mainstream media is against this movement for whatever reasons and it is a battle that cannot be won.
Time to regroup.
Before it's lost completely.
And, allow our opposition to believe that we are gone, while we're underground.
No, no, make the 1% well aware that we're taking it to the next level. see below
I like the way you think :)
Thank you, I'm becoming frustrated because I am not coming across many OWS protesters engaged in strategy. They're too concerned with their camps, city permits, getting through the winter, etc. and don't seem much concerned with the more macro-elements of this Movement.
Please, for clairities sake, lets distinguish between the definition of strategy and tactics. Strategy, in the case of our movement, could be equated with philosophy; tactics is concerned with the means to achieve our philosophy. This is not a trivial distiction. The confusion of these two terms can muddy the water of our discourse.
Thank you for pointing to the distinction -- I am finding neither among my fellow Occupiers. Ok, I will give them credit for adopting tactics that allow for their continued physical Occupation -- beyond that? Not much.
They are young and couragous. They have placed their lives on the line. They simply need to be convinced that there are other ways to approach this, as well as what they have so stalwartly been willing to do. Jesus, what do you want out of them? Do you think they alone are to be our saviors! Tell me, when did you ever camp out in a hostile city facing threat from the entire establishment? I thought we agreed, now you're starting to piss me off! Others now need to step up to the plate, and help with more than criticism. Lets all follow their example and put our bodies on the line. We need it all right now, the wisdom of the elders combined with the stregnth of the young! I;m disabled and have a family, but when it comes down to it I'll put my body on the line with this younger generation of heros!
No, certainly not looking to them alone as our saviors, and I believe that they have been terribly alone all along and that may have something to do with the problems I am witnessing. You know, laissez-faire parenting, and all. I'll be 35 at the end of the month and so I am somewhere between them and the lifelong activists. It's an interesting spot. Alienation is what I know best, perhaps even better than these kids who have been using technology to bring themselves together (in what way?). I was growing up in the 90s, the Halcyon days, everybody knew there was something wrong, or at the very least that what we were living was immoral and that it wasn't going to last. Isolation. Nobody talking. I'm still not gathering that they are much in tune to the causes of their distress. Hoping they can develop the literacy to read something longer than a Twee or a FB blurb. Call me a hard ass... I don't care. Love these kids because they're standing up and, at the same time, I am disheartened because I see them falling into the same. Just want them to read.
Good, I sometimes get very passionate along these lines, I am one of the not so many that have stood by the vision of Jeffersonian Democracy through a long and disillusioning age. What these "kids" are doing is more important even than our sacrifices in WWII. It is nothing less than a struggle for the soul of this nation! May God Bless them in their sacrifice! All such movements go through growing pains; this movement is so recent that to ring its eulogy is absolutely absured. I know your heart is in the right place - have a little patience and try to offer as much constructive critisism as possible. We are all simply human - none of us are demigods. Don;t expect that out of these "kids".
I am replying to Nichol's post "That;s what I've been doing," because there is no reply link to her statement. Thanks Nicole, now I again think that we are on the same page!
That's what I have been doing -- trying to offer patience, help them understand that they are part of something that originated long before them that will continue on long after they have passed. We certainly do not need demigods ... that's another message I've been trying to send because I get the sense that so many of them believe that we need a demigod when, in fact, every movement that ever adopted one was destroyed because some sort of demigod/slavish follower dynamic evolved. Americans have been done a great disservice in that we have come to view the success of social movements as being directly related to the acts of "great" individuals, not a collective effort. Rosa Parks, for example, is made to seem as if she just decided one day that she was not going to give up her spot on the bus, and she is a hero. We are not told that she contributed to and was supported by a loving organization that had her back. That's a serious injustice to everyone belonging to her movement and to future generations as well. We've been raised to think that only greatness brings about change. No, it's human connection that brings about change.
I agree 100%. I was saying this to someone last night (he agreed also). Break down the camps for the winter. Too many have been infiltrated by bad elements and we're getting too much bad press because of it. We need to take this to the next level, which means more focused and organized. Spread the message during winter by word-of-mouth, perhaps fliers, maybe meeting halls or school auditoriums, stay connected on line, break out big next spring.
yea sorry i didn't reply. liked your comment
No problem. I couldn't remember who I was talking to or I would have mentioned it to nichole.
this is my post from earlier tonight. Thomasmiller ripped part of it but you'll recognize my language:
The occupation of land is a very powerful statement, right up there with hostage taking. There comes a point where it becomes counter-productive and it should be obvious that OWS is pretty much at that point now. Soldiers occupying a foreign land through the depths of winter will resent the generals that "demand" they remain at the outposts. They just want to go home. Hostage takers in time must grow weary too. These actions aren't supposed to last forever, they are designed to affect change. OWS is a "shot across the bow", a warning shot. A ship that sits firing repeated warning shots loses credibility. The crew will mutiny. Remaining in the camp/occupy mode is destined to fail, which would be a failure of epic proportions considering how successful the action has been. OWS needs to take the bull by the horns, and quickly. (today would have been ideal 11/11/11 for symbolism) NYC needs to Declare the Occupation over. It needs to explain to it's supporters why it's the right thing to do. It needs to explain that this is not the end, it's the beginning. Imagine the shock waves around the world, respect +1 and the collective sigh of relief for the 99% It's the 1% that isn't going to like the sounds of this... .Victory is to the #occcupy movement, but this is not the time to go "home". Now it's time to get to work. It's time to pound the pavement announcing the coming National General Assembly July 4th, 2012 in Philadelphia and what the significance of that is. Finally, the occupiers need to help clean up and demand that the cities deploy resources to assist the homeless. In solidarity,Fare well, OWS
It makes sense. But then I read what Snowleopard said below and it makes a bit of sense also, about the symbolism of occupying. I guess there's two sides to every coin. My main concern though, isn't the cold so much but the negative press we've been getting because of the bad elements in places like Oakland. It'd be a tough call, stay and continue to be hammered in the MSM or break camp and demoralize those at home that are watching via TV and the internet. No easy answer. I imagine either way the MSM will twist it to suit their slant.
In 1970 in Quebec Canada, a radical group called the FLQ took hostages. The Prime Minister of Canada finally chose to invoke "The War Measures Act" to deal with the problem. Pierre Trudeau made a VERY powerful address to the whole country. It's worth the time to listen http://archives.cbc.ca/war_conflict/terrorism/clips/618/
I don't think it's too much of a stretch to soon see The President Of The United States addressing the nation regarding the Occupations. Obama is between a rock and a hard place because his Wall Street buddies have got the champaign on ice and the 99% want him to show up with the beer he promised. OWS will be ridiculed into oblivion if it fails to act first. As for demoralizing supporters, we're passing the tipping point now. The ball is in OWS's court, bottom of the 9th with the bases loaded situation.
National General Assembly. July 4th. Philadelphia.
We must control our media image.
Yes
Spread this word. I'll do the same. It might not be heard but it's worth a try.
I've been proposing this idea. Funny thing about our recent experimentations with democracy ... seems the best ideas get buried. I'll keep trying, though.
I've come to believe that awareness was the only purpose. It may be in other people's hands now to move forward. Like your own...
Awareness is one of the first of many steps. I don't see how we can operate until we are able to create awareness among the Occupiers -- let alone the general population. How many Occupiers have even the vaguest idea of what goes down on Wall Street and how it impacts lives? Corporate influence in government? They just know they're mad as hell, with good right, wish for things to change and most of us have a lot to learn before we could ever establish any credible influence.
I agree with this, time to change tactics.
Or even develop a tactic. I get the sense from so many of the kids that they believe themselves to be doing something bad, as if they were ever to score some victory they'd act like they just got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Too many Occupiers don't even believe in the legitimacy of this Movement. They've got their revolutionary dreams, you know, the ones where their mug is featured on a t-shirt Che-style. Have no idea what kind of patience this requires.
So far, I think the tactics have been extermely successful, and I don't agree with you about these "kids." They have been courageous! I just don't want them to needlessly suffer. They have made great strides. Time to regroup and build a coalition. At any time they can get ten thousand people on the streets, as long as they don't dissipate their efforts. Time to regroup and build coalitions and plan strategy.
I think the tactics have been more successful than anyone would have imagined; at the same time, I'm wondering to what degree they were tactics, and I am questioning the ability of this Movement to transform itself into an entity that will deliver real change. I don't think we will be able to succeed by continuing to live in the moment. We're going to have to shift from macro to micro focus, back and forth. Strategize, develop something coherent, and so on. Just staying afloat for the time being is tough enough, I'm just wondering when this will be running smoothly enough so that we can actually enact task forces, start campaigning, enact change, and so on.
Tactics may have changed in ways that those of us from an earlier era have not yet quite grasped. One of the things fascinating and exhilerating (sp) about this movement is the success it has achieved without traditonal political mechanisms. Yet, I still think there is much truth in what you say We are really on the edge of a new frontier here, and I think patience is, again as you say, very much called for. We must step very carefully. My concern is to prevent suffering of those on the line if it isn't necessary. I think we are already buliding a broad enough coalition that it may become less and less necessary. One thing is, I think direct action has to be coordinated rather than dispersed. This is very important, both for impact and the safety of participants. Real, lasting change, can only come with spiritual trasformation, read Ghandi.
Agree with the spiritual ... we must project exactly what it is we wish to share and receive.
Thanks, I think we are on the same page:)
I would "count your costs" before considering giving up any ground because once people leave New York City the police will have time to barricade you out so you can not return. remember that park is Private property and once vacated they will make it so you can not return. So people would have to think twice before leaving.
Personally, I don't think it's and either/or proposition. We can hold our ground in the occupy camps, and build coalitions to help ensure their safty. There is too much either/or thinking going on at the moment as far as I'm concerned. The majority of Americans are with us. Let's not allienate them, but reach out for support.
I'm outside Philly, not currently Occupying a "Strong Hold." I agree, New York cannot be lost, Philly either.
We agree here. So when you are talking moving out you mean to close down your small town in favor of Philly. Than I agree.
Not close down, simply choose our battles and come back when we may have a more formidable presence. I'm thinking city officials have no idea what our cute little protestors are up to here. Allentown, on the other hand, they should maybe stay, since they are Occupying a place that is truly revolting.
If you are cold, light a fire. All the cities are bitching about the cost of OWS and the strain of resources. Terrific. That means OWS is working.
I cannot pitch a tent because I am old, but I will buy any OWS a coat.
By spring we will have a new world.
Yea, I think they should come up with a winter strategy.
Call an end to the camping, declare it a victory and move on to phase 2.
Instead of waiting for the situation to deteriorate with the cold and possible eviction, which then looks like defeat.
I'm liking what Snowleopard has been proposing. Guess we're just going to have to remain flexible in this and at no time allow for any external circumstance to weaken our position. Allow any and every set back to make us stronger, that's all.
I would like to politely disagree. Many people in America who can not attend the overnight occupy movements anxiously turn on their TV sets, read their news papers and/ or look on the net to see if the occupiers are still there. Occupy presence is important and paramount to Morale in America. The reason is that in America too many movements sold out behind closed doors so many people are watching thinking; Is this for Real? Are they serious? will the people stay resolved? By staying their ground you have uplifted the very old, sick and those people for whatever reason who can not attend. If a fall back is needed than consider focusing on the places through out the country of our Strong Hold. Another words where we have the numbers to hold our ground. Smaller places should merge with the nearest Strong Hold.
how about "flash occs"? rhymes with black ops?
Thank you Snowleopard, I hadn't considered that aspect. I like your concept of the nearest "Strong Hold." I'm in a small city with Philadelphia nearby -- would you consider Philly a "Strong Hold." We do have the numbers though I am questioning the substance at this point. I understand that this is all relatively new and that it is really remarkable what has happened in such a short span of time. I am, however, concerned most with the transition into becoming a truly effective Movement ... how best shall we Move?
how about "flash occs", rhymes with black ops ! Occupy the pentagon!!! geez, i better go to bed
I would not complain too fast about the Pentagon since many current soldiers are siding with the Occupy movement. In New York one soldier who did two tours of duty in Iraq prevented police violence on unarmed civilians. So the troops are with us and may be the pentagon. At least I am holding back judgement since so many troops have been seen clearly helping us. I am very thankful for their help.
Reminds me of Hakim Bey's Temporary Autonomous Zone concept. Maybe it will come to that, who knows?
I would consider any city that we have the numbers to stay put as a Strong Hold. If the police feel that we the people out number them and hence they back off and allow us to stay than that is a strong Hold because there are more people than police. If the police can easily remove you than that is a hill that we can not defend. It is always wiser to have fewer but strong places that the enemy can not over run. So if Philly is steadily held than, go there. I live in a spit called Cortland so I would go to New York City or Washington DC for example. As to how best shall we move, I can not answer because I am not sure what do you mean? Can you clarify?
This Occupation Movement was simply sprung on many. They hadn't heard about it long beforehand, didn't know what it was, just decided that it is something they must support. I read about it in adbusters more than a month beforehand so I spread the word and knew what was coming (without really knowing). It's interesting to see us working out so many difficulties right out in the open, the process is transparent, and anyone may come witness our strengths, ineptitudes, etc. This visibility, particularly while we are so vulnerable, is worrisome to me. I'm just thinking that we are not being taken seriously, and that is not necessarily just coming from ill-wishers whose status quo lives we threaten. We're a little too out there right now, I suppose. And, since we're sharing everything online for anyone to view, I'm wondering if that may be exaggerating our vulnerability. That's all. Just wondering if a little poker face, cards pressed firmly against the chest, that kind of thing, may be in our best interests for the time being. I also like the notion that we could come back even stronger, especially after certain cities (not currently Strong Holds, I like this thought) will laugh us away after wrongly thinking that the "problem" has been solved and that it will never return. Come back stronger -- surprise!!!
The reason the rich and the status quo is not taking things seriously is because they are so surprised that Americans are complaining at all. They think it a fad that will disappear when the pressure is on or the cold of winter. So it is Imperative that the Strong Holds be kept! This is a mental war not a physical war. You have to engage the tactics necessary for the type of warfare being waged. If this were a literal war than I would advise a totally different tactic, of course in secret to your face. Here being seen is EVERYTHING!! If you as an individual, needs to go home to rethink things and regroup than do what you must as an individual but the mass needs to stay their ground since this is a Western society mental warfare affair. If everyone closed down as you suggest, it would demoralize the rest of the country and that is a price tag that is Way to high. The cost of Morale loss is not worth any reason to stop. Here it would be good to read works on warfare. just remember to use a peaceful translation since this is non-violent. Consider reading Sun Tsu "The Art Of War". Not all war is with guns. As a matter of fact Sun Tsu shows that many wars are won without a shot fired.
Thank you again, Snowleopard. I am reconsidering my current detachment to the Occupied Zones. This makes sense, now. I do still think that we must continue to build (underground) and have effective plans set in place come Spring. Seems we would be relying on martyrs to brave the Occupation through the cold months. In that case, we must do something, create our own media, to honor them for that. At the same time, we cannot allow for everything we are doing and planning to be seen by any member of the general public that wishes to simply drop through.
We should not have any martyrs do to weather because experienced soldiers from wars are helping people learn how to deal with the cold and people brought real military tents to New York. This is a free flowing movement so if you wish to go home and start an underground thing, no one will stop you. I would keep things law abiding or you will attract the wrong kind of attention. If you are thinking Protracted Guerrilla Warfare than you might want to look at the thread that is talking about when violence is necessary. If that is what you mean by under ground. If you just mean planning meetings for political action than you call a meeting with people you trust and brainstorm your ideas. If you fear the wrong people knowing too much, that is the approach I would suggest.
I am not condoning violence and I only plan to operate in accordance with our nation's laws, unlike the corporate and governmental officials we are currently revolting against. It's a battle of minds. We go at the machine with physical violence and it will only come back to us tenfold. Violence never works. Thought is not illegal, though strategy is necessary and it is not wise to hand that over freely to any party desiring to stop us in our tracks.
Sorry if I insulted you but I had to ask since I do not know you personally. I can not mind read. Many people mean many things when talking about underground things so I had to be sure. So please do not take me wrongly. I did state to talk quietly to your trusted group.
I certainly did not feel insulted and I appreciate your concern because I myself have been talking fellow Occupiers out of violence. Here's a quote I like: "People try nonviolence for a week, and when it 'doesn't work' they go back to violence, which hasn't worked for centuries." -Theodore Roszak
Thank you. I am glad that you were not insulted. That is a nice quote. Thanks for adding it.
I agree. The occupation of land is a very powerful statement, right up there with hostage taking. There comes a point where it becomes counter-productive and it should be obvious that OWS is pretty much at that point now. Soldiers occupying a foreign land through the depths of winter will resent the generals that "demand" they remain at the outposts. They just want to go home. Hostage takers in time must grow weary too. These actions aren't supposed to last forever, they are designed to affect change.
OWS is a "shot across the bow", a warning shot. A ship that sits firing repeated warning shots loses credibility. The crew will mutiny. Remaining in the camp/occupy mode is destined to fail, which would be a failure of epic proportions considering how successful the action has been.
OWS needs to take the bull by the horns, and quickly. (today would have been ideal 11/11/11 for symbolism) NYC needs to Declare the Occupation over. It needs to explain to it's supporters why it's the right thing to do. It needs to explain that this is not the end, it's the beginning. Imagine the shock waves around the world, respect +1 and the collective sigh of relief for the 99% It's the 1% that isn't going to like the sounds of this...
Victory is to the #occcupy movement, but this is not the time to go "home". Now it's time to get to work. It's time to pound the pavement announcing the coming National General Assembly July 4th, 2012 in Philadelphia and what the significance of that is.
Finally, the occupiers need to help clean up and demand that the cities deploy resources to assist the homeless.
In solidarity,Fare well, OWS
Very good point. How about people rotation. In short Fresh Troops. Tired cold people go home for a break while new warm fresh people take over and you keep switching. You can get lists of people and rotate accordingly. I am sure some smart military person could lead the "soldier" rotation.
I wouldn't recommend it. The collective sigh of relief isn't just for the campers, it's for the police, social services, admins, local business, etc. This is political "shock and awe", gotta be full-on pull out for max impact. "I'll be back" lol
I'm still thinking we may wish to go home, create private spaces, go to work, and come back in Spring -- solidarity evident. We can set up camp again as easily as we did the first time. I appreciate your dramatic imagery, however, and I wonder if the "soldiers occupying a foreign land (our cities) in the depths of winter" may actually send a message or, would they be unnecessarily suffering and could their brainpower be put to use in a warm setting, cup of tea in hand -- regroup and return.
I think the later, is the former what we want done in our name? OWS was the signal we transmitted and it's no surprise they didn't get the message. Time to take it to the next level. oh yea, as Arnie said, "we'll be back" HAy, maybe we could get him to do a clip for OWS !
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, "nichole". It's nice to find a good NON-TROLL post on this forum tonight...
You write : "Photograph images of the Civil Rights Movement should serve as an inspiration, as they document protesters operating with a dignity and discipline that is truly awe-inspiring -- we are not there, yet."
And I completely concur : we are NOT there yet. I've been after OWS to review their mission statement that merely "encourages" non-violence... Can you imagine Martin Luther King being that wishy-washy about what was at the very HEART of his Movement? That "awe-inspiring dignity and discipline" that you speak of come from a TOTAL AND UNEQUIVOCAL commitment to non-violent action that has not matured here as yet... Every day I hope and pray that it will, because without such a commitment, OWS could well self-destruct.
I included the Black Panthers in that assessment. "Dignity and discipline" on their behalf, definitely. Manning Marables spoke on Democracy Now a while back and I recall him talking about Malcolm X's influence. Hoover was most afraid of some "Black Messiah" that could quite possibly create interracial unity and solidarity. That is exactly what Malcolm X was doing before he was assassinated. Don't even get me started on what whites have done in remembrance of King ... he's the good guy, he only gets better and better and that is so that we can pat ourselves on the back, congratulate ourselves on our "progress" and even further erode Civil Rights. Black men have actually lost ground since the CRM. All this aside, the dignity and discipline maintained by everyone I have seen through photographs participating in the CRM, regardless of their leadership, is truly awe-inspiring. That's especially amazing because I am certain that there were camera people seeking out weakness and disarray.
Where shall we instruct the actors to relocate to? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrrCcdKtQK4&feature=related
Eerie, not coming over to your side.
[Deleted]
Of course you forget the Beacons that make the law be obeyed where the police did not wanted to. Without them standing up with guns against the KKK (many that where policemen themselves), the laws that the civil right movement won, would have being death law.
And without the black panters, the government would have not listen to Luther King message.
Nor the black students that enter the university would have being able to do so if JFK did not order the national guard to protect them from the police.
I agree that OCW should be peaceful (heck you are no fighters). But that does not invalidate the possible necessity of a more violent response later on.
After all, those on power seldom relinquish it willingly.
I think the OWS movement needs to move to Occupy Puerto Rico. It's getting cold out there in Zucchini Park.
If you don't think we know the difference in the laws pertaining to free speech etc., between a state and a territory, you must think we;re really stupid.