Forum Post: its sad
Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 5, 2012, 12:52 a.m. EST by jbob
(74)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
i am a sophomore in college, and i am just miserable and sick to my stomach to see you people on the news and internet. you have no idea what you are talking about and totaly closed minded. i am not trying to troll. i am just honestly sad to see that this is what our youth in this country has come to. i get it, times are tough, they are tough for a lot of people.its not just you.please just educate yourselves and get a job. or better yet start a bussiness. because this is the land of opportunity where you are able to do things like that. but if we pass into law what you people are talking about you will not be able to start a bussiness from scratch.
please just stop being so pro REVOLUTION and get away from this occupy fad, take a step back stop complaing and to something for yourself. stop depending on somebody else to make it easier for you and do something on your own while you still can.
I don't think that most of the sympathizers or half the activists have any real intention of overthrowing the government (or are delusional enough to think that's really a good idea). Also, the whole image of the stereotypical dirt-encrusted hippie with gauged ears, a joint sticking out of his mouth, not a lick of brains to his name, and a nonexistent resume is a stereotype and a caricature. I will concede that we haven't done enough to combat that stereotype (and I feel like something should have been done about that a long time ago), but at the end of the day it's still a hollow stereotype.
The idea that what Occupy Wall Street wants to do will stifle entrepreneurship and stand between people and a better life is equally false. The idea that people are currently floating is that we have fully functioning free markets as things stand now, and that if we attempt to implement any regulation or oversight then it will ruin the market and make it harder and more expensive to make a decent living as an entrepreneur or a worker. Here's why this is a false premise:
The current conception of an ideal market is based around the model of supply and demand; this means that the prices and quantities of the goods we buy depend on how much it is possible to produce, how much people are willing to buy, and at what price people are going to buy it. Such a market is perfectly efficient, and one could argue that it is also perfectly fair. Attempting to interfere with this market will in fact decrease its efficiency and ruin it for both the corporations and the consumers.
What people don't realize is that this model depends on several underpinning assumptions, and when these assumptions are not met then you no longer have an ideal free market. There are three major assumptions that must hold true for an ideal market to exist:
1) No single company or business is big enough to affect the equilibrium price and quantity (that means that businesses have to follow the market because they can't really affect how it operates)
2) Anyone who wants to enter the market (start a business) can do so fairly easily, and can leave the market (shut down) just as easily.
3) All costs of production (including things like pollution caused by the manufacturing process) are accounted for in the purchase price.
If you look at most major industries today you'd be very hard-pressed to find a market in which even one of these assumptions holds true, let alone all three. First of all, when corporations reach a certain size you get what's called an oligopoly, which means that a handful of firms control almost all of the share in a given market. This effectively negates Assumption #1, because the firms are big enough to manipulate the market size and shape as they choose, and thus the market is no longer free from outside influence.
Also, once firms get to a certain size it becomes almost impossible to enter the market in any real way. Economies of scale make it much easier for an existing large firm to mass-produce goods at fairly low costs. Someone new who seeks to enter the market will never be able to create a company from scratch that's big enough to match the old firm's economy of scale, and if they start small they'll start off with higher per-unit costs and (by necessity) higher prices than established firms. This makes them fairly easy to run out of business while they're still small, thus invalidating Assumption #2.
The third assumption is almost never valid as it is when you think about it, because there are certain side effects to many large manufacturing operations that the corporations themselves never have to address. If you manufacture a good, but the process produces toxic chemicals, then that's a side effect. In many cases, the chemicals are simply released into the environment, causing damage to the local ecosystem and occasionally direct harm to other people. This damage is called an externality, which means that it's a portion of the cost of production that is quietly foisted on everyone whether they like it or not, and more often than not it's simply treated as part of being around.
Here's the thing; left to their own devices corporations will inevitably externalize as much of their costs as they possibly can (to increase market share and profits), and eventually most markets will devolve into some form of monopoly or oligopoly, which causes the problems I described above and leads to the kinds of abuses that caused the 2008 economic crisis. Someone or something has to actively work to preserve the free market by breaking up monopolies and forcing companies to stop externalizing their costs, and that's what OWS is all about.
first off thank you for not ripping my head off and calling me a troll. and you put this together very well and i dont disagree with everything. and i know all about stereotypes, i am white and i have dread locks and i am probably one of the most conservative kids at my school. hah.
and i agree with you that we/ the government needs to keep an eye on corporations that are huge, because most of the time they are abusing their size (when they get government funding, bailouts, etc.) but what you need to keep in mind are the smaller businesses. it is possible that these businesses do very well and they want to expand or higher more employees, but they might have to wait years or decades to expand because they government is trying to tax the rich, which in this case is bad for the middle class because these business owners cant higher more middle class workers.
there are only of handful of "too big to fail" corporations, and it just seems like the OWS protesters think that every business is too big to fail and is out to screw the middle class, which is not true at all.
a) Re. "it just SEEMS like the OWS protesters think that every business is too big to fail and is out to screw the middle class," = The Absolute Epitome of a "Strawman Argument" ;
b) You do not "seem" to have an idea about what really animates and vexes OWS. Thus please watch the documentary film, "INSIDE JOB" - The Latest Working Link : http://documentarystorm.com/inside-job/ & Official Movie Website; http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/ & get an idea of The Core Issues.
c) It "seems" to me that "you have no idea what you are talking about and totaly closed minded." (sic)
ad iudicium ~{;-)
No offense, but you're lucky you're just a sophomore in college (unless you're a troll, of course). From Global Public Square:
"The sobering reality: just 55.3 percent of Americans between 16 and 29 have jobs."
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/30/have-the-youth-given-up-on-obama/ :
So with that kind of unemployment what are they to do? How are they to just go find a job if there is no job? How can they start a business if they are in debt from paying for college?
I think these young people who have woken up and are using their right to free speech and protest to return this country to the people are heroic. They show nothing but courage for taking on such a powerful system.
I think you've missed the point. The revolutionaries are the ones who have realized that in fact everyone else is asleep in their fantasy worlds that has been created around them to keep them in line. "please just educate yourselves and get a job. or better yet start a bussiness." Firstly you spelt business wrong, secondly, I am well educated and I have my own very successful web development business. This is what happens, you go through school then college or university, then you're left with a MASSIVE debt that you have to get a job to pay off. You start the job straight away and you work your arse off 5 days a week sometimes totalling more than 50 hours per week, just to pay off your debt and to pay for living. Then you buy a car that you can't afford so you work harder to get the income you need to pay for it, then you buy a house that you can't afford so you get a loan from the bank and work harder to pay that off. Then before you know it you're mid to late 30s and you realize that you're working your life away so you freak out and have a mid life crisis. But then you get straight back to the only thing you know because you've grown up in a reality that closes you off to other ways of living and thinking. So you work hard to save for retirement, getting only 2 - 4 weeks of holiday per year. There are 52 weeks in a year and you only get to enjoy 2 - 4 of them?? This can't be the only way to live. So you get to your 60s and hope that you are one of the fortunate few who actually make it and have lots of money saved up. You live the last 10 years of your life in a false belief that you are happy. Just before you die you look back on your life and you realize, what the fuck have I just spent the past 60 years of my life doing? Working like a slave for the capitalism machine for what? So I can pretend to be happy with all my possessions that really don't mean a thing.
Ask any person who is on their death bed and ask then what the most important things in their life were. They will tell you a whole bunch of things, usually things like falling in love, having a child, seeing the world. None will mention the thing that they have spent 60 years of their life doing, working.
"You have no idea what you are talking about and totaly closed minded." Firstly you spelt totally wrong. Secondly, on the contrary the revolutionaries are the ones with the open mind who can see that there are other ways to live your life without needing to spend your life working like a slave for a system that does not provide for you. I truly hope that there will be a mass awakening, a moment when people realize that they are under a delusion chasing a "dream" that they will never achieve.
jbob, I'm not having a go at you, you're young and you know no other way because this is what you've been taught your whole life so far. Why don't you head down and hang out with some of the Occupiers, smoke a joint (or not) and just chat. Nothing serious, just hang out. You'll see that we're people from all walks of life. We're a mixture of students, professionals, homeless, workers, everyone!
Some of the greatest minds of our time are using their intellect to make money for the company they work for. But for what reason? Why do these companies need more money? Imagine if these people were able to spend their time on important things like technology to improve renewable energy, perpetual motion (go on laugh, but then when you've finished laughing do some research into it, you'll be surprised), particle physics, sustainable living techniques and SOOO much more! Capitalism does not work and needs to be changed.
frankly 50 hrs a week is not a big deal... i regularly put in 90-100 hrs a week.
jbob:
Three things in life cannot be feigned:
romantic bliss
intoxication
writing style
Your writing style vis-a-vis your education betrays you. Something is amiss here.
For example, the misspelling of complaining as complaing is more than just a typo; indeed, it smacks of contrivance since few college sophomores would allow their prose to portray themselves so poorly.
Secondly, your because this is the land of opportunity where you are able to do things like that is presented as a sentence yet it is an obvious sentence fragment, a classic error more associated with an eighth-grader, not a college sophomore.
The expression our youth seems to imply that you are removed from this age group, yet your writing style suggests that you are one of them. Even if your writing style is excused, you, as a sophomore in college, are not removed enough in age to comfortably use such an expression.
Your to something for yourself rivals the incoherence of Miss South Carolina's infamous ramble.
Your introduction of the charge of troll could only be because that it existed within your consciousness, but why? Do you presume that people will adjudge you to be a troll? Again, why? Guilt by close association?
Lastly, when you attempted to correct "gosso920" below you betrayed your lack of understanding of an elliptical sentence.
If you are truly miserable and sick to my stomach to see you people on the news and internet then, I ask, why have you been a member of this site since Oct. 16, 2011, as indicated by your profile?
I could continue by citing your misspellings, such bussiness and totaly, to make my case, oops, I guess I just did but, in fairness, that citation would be pedantic. The magnanimous do not indulge in such.
Jbob, it pains me to conclude that which I prefer not but you seem to be an impostor. So, to that end, I must make a citizen's arrest. You have the right to remain silent, a right to representation by a grammarian...
Any errors found in the above should be directed to my secretary, who, as always, regrets their occurrence.
(jbob, I'm engaged in a blog-a-thon so I needed this gig. Your understanding is appreciated.)
He's an electrical and computer engineer for gods sake. He isn't a useless fuck with yet another English degree. In 5 years he will have a great job that pays well thanks to his degree and you will still be online, correcting people's grammar like a dick, accomplishing nothing of worth thanks to your degree.
He'll have a great job competing with cheap outsiders here or he'll have to get a job in one of the BRIC countries...But those countries aren't stupid enough to let that happen.
Nope. For phone support or physical labor sure but actual programming jobs are plentiful here.
I know more than a few people in IT whose programming was jacked to India. Then there is my Bank IT friend who has to work with H1-B's all the time. He works on contract and each time he seems to be getting less and less..He tells me things are just not as good as they used to be...
Not as "plentiful"...
He's thinking about a career in music..
If he's thinking of a career in music then he really is fucked. How about instead he focus on learning things in the computer field that are in demand and a monkey can't do. Web programming and IT is easy as shit which is why you see a flood of people involved in these fields in this country or not. I guarantee you the same would not be said for a skilled JAVA or .net programmer.
It's a joke...
If you had read my post thoroughly, you would have noticed that it was a blogging gig, of which I asked jbob's understanding.
Sorry, it's really hard to read through pretentiousness and fluff.
congratulations. you are about the 100th person to point out that i had grammatical errors, but i applaud that you took the most time for your response. and the condescending tone, the "I can't state good facts so ill just harp on peoples grammar", that you use is nothing less than i would expect from a 99%.
and by the way what does me being a member from oct. 16th have to do with anything. if anything it shows that i have been paying close attention to you people for the past three months, and i can see what you people are really about.
Don't waste your time arguing with them. This is about the best thing they can accomplish with their useless degrees. Let them have their pathetic highpoint correcting grammar on the internet.
Saying that art history degrees are useless is extremely insulting and naïve. I have a masters in music, but I work as a computer programmer and I'm willing to bet I could do circles around your algorithms.
Stop using ad hominem like a five year old child and pose arguments of worth for a change. There's no reason to lace your arguments with insulting remarks and logical fallacies. It just makes you look weak.
Wait, you want me to make a mature response when the initial posting was a massive mess of an essay anally nitpicking and correcting grammar while ignoring the message of the post? Really? What computer programming work do you do? If it is more than web programming then good for you, you picked up an excellent skill to complement your useless as shit masters but if you think you are Mr. Big man on campus because you know pHp or HTML aka kindergarten programming languages then please kindly shut the fuck up.
you are my new favorite person on this website.
Yup I gotta be doing something right since everything I post gets passively aggressively down voted. Love that "free speech".
jbob, if you re-read my post and then ponder for a second, you will recognize that my criticism of your post was not your grammar but your contrivance of the same. Indeed, I charged you as impostor not as one lacking education and diligence. In short, I think you attempted to feign your real essence.
OK, so you want to talk facts. Here we go.
Why do you think people around the whole would take the unprecedented action of mobbing the streets over their daily routines? Boredom? Agitation from the lack of sex? Attention seekers? Go here and read these stories: http://jobsearch.about.com/u/sty/unemployment/unemployedstory/ . Recognize the ages of these posters, note their want for a job and their effort to such, acknowledge their despair, read them all as I have been doing for over year. Allow me to post some excerpts:
Your logic seems to be if you have a job, the world is a cat's meow. Not necessarily true. Indeed, ranking closely with the scantiest of competence is the ability to genuflect on demand. Sycophancy, jbob, sucking up to the man as he, the man, goes busy trying to enrich himself; indulgently, recklessly and too often fraudulently, with the silent complicity of a nation we now refer to as sheeple. How do I know such? I have written such accounts for years and I will share them on this forum one day.
OWS is in the street because of the cries unheard and probably unread of those above. Could you be so callous and unconcerned to ignore these people? I hope not, as their numbers are too many and their misery too immense. And if you do ignore them, what is your reason, a need for yet another sensation, a titillating thrill to go with all the previous ones. Yes, I can understand. Here lies jbob with 10,000 orgasms and 10,000 buzzes, mankind has lost yet another indispensable.
Batter up.
Even I have noticed that you guys try and find spelling errors to discredit naysayers. One guy pointed out how i misspent 'to' as 'too'.I am sure there are many English majors among OWS who write far better prose than me (I write financial reports and don't have to be Tennyson to write those)
Not all degrees guarantee equal employability. Not possible. And my personal view about most Arts and Humanities is that they should be made optional subjects that students can study instead of awarding a degree in those. May be you could take it as a minor. Frankly, I am not sure how an English degree, or even Transgender studies really helps. You sure gain knowledge but it's not really all that useful. That's my personal view. As for say music, well the market for musicians is small. Not everyone becomes a Petrucci (yes I am a huge fan of Dream Theater) by studying music and there are only so many places that employ musicians. The demand is less so only the very best get any decent 'jobs'.
A degree is not a worthless piece of paper. For someone like me who worked their assess off to get an admission in a top univ and full scholarship, it is a matter of honor and pride. Now, I am not sure what work experience you have or what jobs you are applying to, so I will refrain from commenting on that. But understand that not all experience is useful or that you may not get the salary you are asking for because someone else is ready to work for less.
OWS protesters need to understand that a degree would not guarantee one a job, at least not the job or the salary that they want. Which is why I have passed those guys once in a while on my way to office and have nicely ignored them. There was once a time when you did not require a degree to make a decent living, but that time has long passed. In today's world, lot of those jobs that high school dropouts could do are being shipped to China and that's a reality you need to live with. You cannot simply legislate to bring back those jobs. Even if the government were foolish enough to do it, it won't work because market forces cannot be legislated.
Get real.
Get real, you write. Indeed, I will. Like you, I was a financial reporter, specifically, a financial analyst for a home-building lender and subsidiary of a very large commercial bank, whose name I wish to reserve for now. I was the only CPA in the department of about 20 so-called professionals. Professionals? Hardly, they excelled in ignorance, incompetence and, above all, sycophancy. They directly contributed to the bogus housing growth and its subsequent bust. For example, they could not even understand (and hence cite) something as simple and questionable as the following:
Inventory 10,000,000 (debit)
Retained earnings (Unrealized appreciation) 10,000,000 (credit)
They were automatons for the man, who willingly approved of their nescience, including artificially inflating inventory value as illustrated above.
Mr . SmartCapitalist, I'm not going to engage in an exhausting homily that would serve no other purpose than to hear myself once again. I know what happened during my 40 years as a CPA/auditor/financial analyst/programming hack in the corporate world. My last experience was sitting across the conference table as two bosses in the housing industry instructed me to stop sniffing. As a veteran of Corporate America auditing, I did not need a translation. What surprised me was that they made the threat together, not fearing, I suppose, that later one would flip on the other. Nonetheless, I did not stop sniffing; no, I merely did it more subtly; yet, in the end, they retired me(*). None of my collegeaues received the same treatment because they did not even understand the notion of sniffing. So, you see that everyone who claims a job does not necessary indicate a noble purpose. Indeed, when someone boast of a job with Corporate America, my first thought is how familiar they must be with the backside of someone's lower orifice.
You chastise those with liberal art degrees, making note of their empty pursuits. Hooey. Not only are their contributions honorable and cherished but they possess an aptitude that can easily transfer to other disciplines. Give me a student of philosophy, even informal, I will return an auditor with skills better than most. If these liberal art pursuits are such a disgust, why does the Nobel committee recognize them and why do Americans take pride in the awards? Indeed, why did a man of such pragmatism as Steve Jobs once express that he would give away all his technology for one afternoon of conversation with Socrates? Most films enjoyed the world over are rooted in the disciplines of liberal arts. The late former Clemson fullback James Dickey, a college liberal arts teacher, wrote Deliverance as well as a range of admired poetry. General Patton himself is noted for his love of poetry as captured in the film bearing his name and illustrated by his own pen.
For the last six years, I have worked at home, online, performing various CPA/website needs for my brother's CPA firm and my own interest. For example, I have a massive website that I hope to use for the better of me and other Americans in need and want--free education, for example. And I support OWS, not because I am a liberal, which I am not, not because I am lazy, which my webiste will resoundingly disprove(**) but because I know that if Corporate America goes unchecked, if Americans wait for employed Americans to blow the whistle, we will eventually have another S&L crisis, or another dot.com collapse, or another Enron, or another Arthur Andersen, or another housing bust. At the peak of prosperity, 40% of Americans lived from paycheck to paycheck. Imagine that dynamic now. That kind of dependency sets the stage for a disaster because they are too dependent to challenge Corporate America.
I could close this distraction in no better way than sharing that everyday I thank some unknown for not having to work for Corporate America and I also wanted to exonerate OWS from the false claims that the organization is confined to lazy malcontents with no justification for wanting to change America.
I just got real.
P.S. If anyone should find fault with the grammar of this composition, my beautiful secretary, fanciful as she is, regrets the errors.
(*) By the way, I took the pain, taught myself Flash, Flex, PHP and other mindless endeavors, as Mardsen cites, and moved on to other interests.
(**) A Reaganite once remarked that I was crazy for the work hours that I maintained.
Very well said! I can't agree more. To add, 50% of the blame should go on the protesters and 50% on their parents for raising them horribly. They clearly did not prepare their children for the realities of life and instead filled their head with this belief that they are always right and they are unique butterflys who can find that 50k a year job blogging about independent art in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.
No, 99% of the blame can be place squarely and accurately on the Financial Market's casual criminality, and 1% on the folks like you who support it. They caused the crisis we are in today. All else is frippery and misdirection.
By the way, Thomas Jefferson, no intellectual slouch, author of the Declaration of Independence, President of the United States, etc. wanted his tombstone to indicate he was the founder of the University of Virginia, a Liberal Arts college. Most of our Presidents attained Liberal Arts degrees in undergraduate school as well. Law itself comes under the heading of liberal arts at most undergraduate colleges. Do you think that the Constitution could have been written by people unfamiliar with philosophy, history, law, language arts, and so on? Yeah, sure, Liberal Arts are worthless!
corporations basically own our government, a few wealthy people have an exorbitant amount of political influence and you think that everything is just fine and dandy......maybe someday you will care about an issue and you will turn to the political system and realize that you are powerless.......... since you are not a member of this powerful corporate oligarchy, there should be plenty we can agree on, its sad that you are not open minded enough to realize this
I don't disagree with you. I do think you are seeing through the rosy coloured glasses.
Life is pretty comfortable while you are in school, living off a huge debt. I think once you are done school and realize how hard people work, and how little they get (which is going to be worse by the time you have graduated), you'll regret not supporting this movement. I don't think that a revolution is really the solution, but Jefferson said there should be a revolution every generation.
Personally; I believe strongly that we hit peak oil. We are fighting energy wars right now, once things become more localize, it will turn into water wars.
i know exactly how hard it will be once i graduate, but i am not going to rely on the government for anything. if i cant find a job in my field ill go flip some burgers at mcdonalds. the last thing i will do is file for unemployment.
i think that is the misconception you guys have, you think that anyone that opposes or questions the thoughts of the occupy movement are spoiled little brats, rich people, etc. you guys cant accept that people want to do things for themselves and that when they do make it (get a job) they don't want their money going towards people that are going to abuse the system, by filing for unemployment or welfare when they are able to actually find a job.
Well, no. You don't. Because by the time you graduate, things will be significantly harder already. It's not about "finding a job at McDonalds", it's that you can't pay your rent with that job and many of those companies have a hiring freeze on right now. My company does, and they were planning on hiring about 20 new people. The last new group was let go.
The misconception is that Occupy alone represents a drive for socialism that's against a specific group of people. That's just media portrayal. That these people somehow feel that they deserve a piece of the rich pie.
But that's not entirely true. It's much bigger, and much more global. Occupy isn't making any difference. There's nothing that can be done. The Economy is based on a ponzi scheme that assumes it will have infinite energy to run an infinite economy for an infinite amount of people.
We hit peak oil in 2008. Every time the economy picks up, the price of oil increases because of demand, and the stocks sink again. That's why we are in this roller coaster. Tensions in Iran are not increasing the oil price. The increased oil prices are increasing the tensions in Iran. The US Government is getting nervous about another energy crisis and they are trying to stop it with cheap oil, but there is none left. Russia hit peak, US hit peak, the Saudi is investing in Offshore drilling, which basically means they hit peak and are willing to spend significantly more and get significantly less.
"Occupy Nigeria" just started as a protest to removing subsidized oil prices. The more energy costs increase, the less the Government can afford to spend. When there was plenty of oil, everyone lived well and the Government spent freely. Now the Government needs tax money to pay off loans that resulted from bailing out companies that rely huge on massive excesses of energy, such as houses or cars. They want us to buy these products still, but heating a home, electricity and gas have all gone up in price. It's not possible to do what is expected on the current wages, which means people can't spend as much. Regardless of whether we spend less, or can't afford less, the oil price is still going to increase.
The Earths population for the last 2,000 or so years was around 1 billion humans. When cheap, affordable oil hit the market, the population went up to 7.5. Nothing else will produce nearly as much energy for the same cost. When the oil runs dry, the farms will die, transportation will die, Governments will die, the power won't be 24/7, water won't be 24/7.
Everytime you work, or buy products or drive, or spend... you are using energy from fossil fuels, you are increasing the prices and you are making the situation worse. There is no way out of this.
after reading some of your post i guess i have to clarify some things. first off i know i had terrible grammar in this post get over it. second when i say do something on your own while you still can i wasnt implying that you should go out and protest more, i was trying to say get a good job while the government doesnt control every job in this country. third, it doesnt matter what degree you get in college, if you like what you study great thats perfect, thats why this country is so great. it allows you to go to school and get an art history degree if you want. to be honest i dont know what kind of job you will get with that degree but i cant imagine that there are too many out there. so just please stop going to these protests and wasting time with this movement if you have a degree like this because its not the governments or the corporations fault that you dont have a job, its just not in demand right now. a lot of people dont have disposable incomes right now. so go out get a job contribute to society/economy.
You need to get in touch with reality. Because what you are saying has no bearing on reality. Perhaps you should broaden your educational base to include a refresher on history ( modern history ).
I do believe you are incorrect when you state, "you have no idea what you are talking about and totaly closed minded".
If you'd do a bit of reading you'd see that the issues introduced to public awareness are real issues, some are smaller issues yet still are inherent to the basic premise, others are large issues which, sadly, should have been in the public eye long before now.
You mention youth of this country as though it is only the young who are participants in the protests and awareness raising, yet you fail to note the working class people who attend and participate, a class that one day you will also be joining whether you accept that fact or not.
Instead of making judgements based on mainstream media or on a media format that received a judgement that news doesn't have to be factual, do some reading, check out some of the film clips posted on this site, take a took at this offshoot of OWS and see what they are trying to accomplish. http://www.the-99-declaration.org/
You don't have the advantage of age and experience, so do take advantage of the words of those who have shared their own.
so film clips are ur source of impeccable information? awesome
No, but they are a source of information.
No one should have to tell a college sophomore how to research, matter of fact, no one should have to tell a college sophomore to do research in the first place.
oh really? well i guess hippies can cite anything for 'research'. But in academia and business, we like to err on the side of caution
Err on the side of caution, to be cautious one must also know the 'other side'. I point out one possible starting place and it's not good enough?
As I said before, a college student should already know how to research, not be lead by the hand.
If you are as cautious as you are claiming, then it should be presumed you have done at least some research.
But, if in your estimation, caution requires only one side of an argument or if you prefer, debate, then by all means acquire only one side.
Dunno about college students but any fool would know that referring to Youtube videos which do not have any sort of references or citations and are certainly not peer reviewed or published in a journal don't count as research. Sloppy research, may be.
As I said a starting point, I've never accepted a video as a factual report, but I have used a video to begin researching the subject and the video actually brought more questions into the research parameters than a simple article on more than one occasion.
Sloppy research? Nope. Just a starting point, an item of interest, pro or con.
There, you finally caught it, in your last sentence: "and do something on your own while you still can."
This IS why we are here, this IS what we are doing.
We are working to end corruption in government and in business.
It is not going to correct itself.
So we are here advocating change and promoting participation.
It is "OUR" country/Nation/Government. It is "OUR" responsibility to make change to bring an end to corruption that has run amok.
What would you suggest we do to affect change then?
Just getting a job, won't do that.
Just keep going OWS...It doesn't matter... Sooner or later "jbob" will realize what Occupy and the other movements that will stem from it are about..
When you are born into the system all you know is the system..It takes time and effort to look at things from outside your own perspective.
Our country has been hi-jacked, a corporate coup if you will..Our Congressmen are owned and don't serve the interests of the people...
As long as this is the case there will be people railing against this new neo- feudalism.
Get used to it.
BTW, young man, do YOU depend on anyone...How do YOU make a living?
i worked 60 hours a week in the summer soooo. and my parents help with school so i dont have to work during the school year, but if they didnt i would gladly get a job during school to get more money.
A whole 2 months of work in a year and your parents help you out...Now I see where you are coming from, thanks...
Did you ever think about who else is a dependent? You are...
Not everyone has M&D to help out, You have no experience in which to base your observations....
"Gladly" get a job, stop taking your parents money for school, get your own place and see how it is to live in the real world..
When I was 18 we lived in a country for the people, a land of opportunity...My parents said get a job and I tried and tried and did what I had to mostly without their help...I joined the military. After I got out, I worked and worked. I didn't have time or money for college. I was taught to never get into debt..I didn't..Things worked out.
But that's that way it was, not the way it is. We don't live in that country anymore..In fact the idea of country is just that, an idea..Corporate Oligarchy is more accurate..
You like computer sciences? Great! You might get a job with Goldman Sacs making algos to fuck over investors with or maybe you'll have to probably compete with some guy from India who is in this country on a H1-B Visa because he'll work for cheap and because of this, so will you..
You want to do it on your own? Great! But there is probably a giant monopoly doing the same thing you do and because they bought Congress, They will get legislation passed to crush your business or make it so you won't even bother trying...
Now more than ever the "little guy" has less of a chance to make it or to compete...Today, if you started out with nothing and your parents were poor, there is a good chance, you will be also.
You may want to look at your assumption that people in OWS are "closed minded". Indeed after all these months, if you don't understand the issues they're addressing you may want to apply that characterization to yourself: it would be more appropriate.
(And by the way, I'm not a "youth" and am likely more than twice your age.)
It's impossible to understand what issues they are addressing because they are all over the place. There are just to many to legitimatly focus on anything serious. This forum although better in the last few weeks, has been one of the most closed minded sites I have ever been on. It has had the your either for us or against us attitude for quite some time. Prime example, this young person comes on here and puts forth a legit prospective from someone his age and what does he get, builder telling him to go back to school. Don't address the topic, attack because he must be against us.
This IS why we are here, this IS what we are doing.
We are working to end corruption in government and in business.
It is not going to correct itself.
So we are here advocating change and promoting participation.
It is "OUR" country/Nation/Government. It is "OUR" responsibility to make change to bring an end to corruption that has run amok.
You are absolutly correct that OWS was formed based on those two issues. Unfortunatly, the other 1.6 million issues now are over shadowing them and making the movement extremely undesireable for over 70% of Americans.
Pardon me, JimBeam, but I don't see the post as legit. He comes on here declaring that all of OWS is "closed minded" and characterizes everyone in it as people waiting for someone else to fix the problems. He simultaneously dismisses the entire reason for the movement, and basically tells everyone to just get a job (or start a business, to be more accurate).
That is nothing other than an attack, and responding in kind is not closed minded at all, but simply calling him on his arrogance.
I will NEVER understand why people come here, the main OWS site, to attack it. I don't understand the pathology of how anyone thinks such actions will, or more importantly should, be tolerated, let alone welcomed. This is not intended as an attack OWS site, nor is it intended as an open forum where anything goes. While it is open to everyone who chooses to participate, it exists for the purpose of exchanging ideas that will help the movement, discuss issues of importance to it and develop methods to make it grow and become more effective.
Yes, that includes critiques of tactics, strategies, and even weak political and economic ideas, all for the purpose of making it stronger and more focussed, But it does not include those who come here only to say "take a bath and get a job" which this OP is essentially all about.
This kid SHOULD go back to school: he clearly has no understanding yet of why people are protesting systemic problems, or even that any such problems exist. And instead of asking about it in good faith, he is inspired by his discomfort about his own ignorance and confusion to attack all of OWS rather than learn something.
This is not a closed minded site, but an open site that nevertheless has a specific purpose. If one can't respect that purpose, one shouldn't be here; there are plenty of other places to go.
That's the problem, you look at it as an attack when it is his prospective from what he knows of the organization. You can't deny that OWS has not done a very good job publically with it's image. As far as being welcomed, well this site was established to debate and talk about the issues. What is the point of having a site like this if all you want on it are like minded people, that does nothing to discuss and resolve differences. He has no understanding because most on here just dismissed his point of view without explaining to him what the Movement is about from OWS members prospectives.
Sorry, no, he didn't ask a question. He did not come here in good faith. Had he done so, from my experience with this site, despite its often chaotic nature, there would have been plenty of people more than willing to help and explain.
He did not ask for explanation. He condemned.
Yet despite this, people like ARod1993 have patiently laid out some issue for this kid. I, frankly, can't be bothered. If this child had simply spent an hour or so doing some reading on this site before he decided his wisdom was sufficiently formed without doing so, and posting a general insult towards every member and supporter of OWS, he could have had some more answers, Instead, he simply flamed.
I don't want to convert him, but give him a thorough spanking and send him to bed without supper.
My experience with this site has been completely different than yours. I attribute that mostly because I ask questions that don't "Fit the Mold" on here. I don't ask them because I wan't to start a fight but what I usually get in response is banter back telling me to go watch fox news or you must be a republican (which im not by the way) instead of engagement and debate on the issue being discussed.
I'm sorry that has been your experience. On occasion it has been mine as well. (Passions do get high.) But your negative experience and my occasion ones have little to do with the OP of this thread, which is nothing other that a statement made in bad faith, otherwise known as trolling..
But it does because you are assuming that it was in bad faith and not giving the benefit of the doubt that he just doesn't know any better.
I am assuming nothing. I read his words, which constituted an attack. I know of no attack made in good faith.
So giving the benefit of the doubt until he responds is not closed minded?
I'm not sure what doubt he would benefit from. He did not ask a question. He did not offer a critique. He attacked.
You don't walk into someone's house and call them all shits and expect them to treat you like you're nothing but a naive kid.
If you wish to do that, fine by me. I neither have the patience, or the inclination. And neither will I criticize those who react, appropriately in my view, to raking him over the coals. He did nothing that would indicate he was here to learn, but only insult. He wrote nothing that indicates to me (nor you, I suspect) that his own mind was open in any way.
As I said in my first reply to you: posting here to do nothing other that to condemn the movement is not a legitimate critique. It that warrants nothing but a response in kind.
It is in our best interest to educate rather than attack. When it becomes obvious that it is an attack. The attacker has then already made that apparent. Talk to everyone else through your communications.
Well even if your supposition is true and it actually is an attack. You don't know it for a fact. Instead of getting immediately offended and striking back, it is usually better to give the benefit of the doubt to true questioning. Then take the opportunity to work on your oration skills and try to answer honestly on why we are here, use it as an educational opportunity not just to the individual you are responding to, but also to whoever may be stopping in to read the discussions going on here.
You certainly have a valid point, but after a certain number of trolls, I simply lose patience. It forces us to have to go over the same basic issues over and over again, ad nauseum. And the effect is that few new ideas can be discussed, and ever fewer explored in depth. It holds everyone back. And I'm sick of it.
Can't blame you. I try to keep some reply's handy in a file to reply back to repeat questions. And I know it is more emotionally satisfying to slap a persistent attacker, but again they usually end up digging a hole for themselves and in the process keep the post up on the list.
Well even if your supposition is true and it actually is an attack. You don't know it for a fact. Instead of getting immediately offended and striking back, it is usually better to give the benefit of the doubt to true questioning. Then take the opportunity to work on your oration skills and try to answer honestly on why we are here, use it as an educational opportunity not just to the individual you are responding to, but also to whoever may be stopping in to read the discussions going on here.
I've already addressed what jbob has to say, and I'd like us to wait and see what has to say about my reply before we pass judgement one way or the other on the people who are angry with him. The fact remains that the original post appears to be a bit of an incoherent rant rather than a clear challenge to what OWS is or is trying to do, and jbob trots out the "stupid dirty hippie" stereotype rather than asking us why we're doing what we're doing or explaining why he disagrees with us.
If OWS had just stayed on it's two core arguments (Corruption in government and Campain Finance) it would have done wonders but when you hear the ideas that we should have a minimum $150,000 income for every American family it just sounds crazy.
Are you nothing more than a backseat critic? Exactly what do you do to help OWS besides tell them what they can do for you. Why not ask what you can do for them?
First off, I don't want OWS to do anything for me, they don't represent me or over 70% of the American people. Second, why would I do anything for OWS when they can't even figure out collectively what it is they want to accomplish? If they can't even figure that out internally, why would someone from outside the organization waiste there time.
Allow me to break down your own question and analyze the things you say, "Why would I do anything for OWS when they can't even figure out collectively what it is they want to accomplish?"
NOW, from that question replace OWS with AMERICA. Can you see how that thinking comes across to me.
Do you support America even though we cannot collectively figure out what we want to accomplish?
All American's want the same things. They want to live free, they want to be able to provide for there families and they want a government that does the job they were put in that position to do. That is collective. One group of OWS wants a minimum house hold income of 150,000 for all families, another want's no government at all, still another want's us to just go with what there beliefs are. Those are completely different from each other. I love the fact that when OWS first came on the scene that there argument was Corruption in government and Campain finance reform. I don't think there is an American out there (other than the corporations and political folks) that can argue that both of those need to be fixed. Now that OWS has moved away from those and they are no longer the predominant arguments and that they have given way to radical ideals has killed this movement.
Do Americans favor socialism or capitalism? Do we favor conservative or progressive solutions?
We may all want the same things. But we can not come together collectively on what policies should get us there. If you want to say corruption between business & state and campaign finance reform are the priority issues, I will agree with you and say it is the essential first step.
But after that, then what?
I'm not saying that those are the priority issues, OWS said originally that those were the priority issues. Had they stuck to that the over 70% of America that does not support the movement might have. Once those to very important issues were resolved then collectively, you work out what is next. Why didn't they just stick to it and not let it get to the point that it is now. That is the great failure of the movement. It is fractured internally because of it. As for the other part, we as Americans have to be willing to compromise to get the best possible outcome. Neither side at almost any level are willing to do it. We blame Congress for there unwillingness to do it but those who claim one party or another at the individual level won't either.
I see you've already written in the outcome of failure. I guess I'm not ready to write off the movement just yet. Who knows? You may be right, time will tell.
It's not my place to determine success or failure of an orgainzation im not in, I can only look at it objectively from what I see from statistics and resources available.
Well, I do believe you are trying to be truly objective. I thank you for that. I still think this movement is worth supporting and in doing that I may sometimes defend the movement sometimes when I should listen more objectively myself. I am glad you gave OWS some credit for raising awareness of the issues.
I do wish that the criticizers came across more like you and less like jbob though. You're criticism is much easier to hear.
At the end of the day, these are the types of conversations we all need to have. It's not always going to be fun or enjoyable but the real progress will be made when everyone can sit at the table and discuss it instead of yelling and screaming across the street at each other. I believe you are a person who is staunch in your beliefs but fair as well.
I try. Unfortunately, I'm a moody person; I get carried away sometimes and comment off my emotions rather than productive thought.
jbob if you don't mind me asking, what are you studying in college?
why did you want to know, if you dont mind me asking?
Smart man. I majored in Comp Sci myself and I'm doing well for myself. The reason your wise words won't work for OWS supporters is because they are all art history and gender studies majors who thought they could get 50k a year jobs blogging. Anytime one of those nuts whines about having a degree and no job they NEVER say what they majored in. I'm not saying there are one or two out there that majored in something useful and still support OWS but they are the exception and not the majority.
Do you have any proof of this supposition?
Yes. If OWS people majored in useful things and didn't breeze through college boozing and drugging up while learning a bullshit, fluff major they wouldn't be camping in a park, raping each other and doing drugs and whining that life is hard and they can't pay off their college debt.
That's more supposition.
How's that gibe with programing?
Ok I just went out and asked every single OWS supporter out there what they majored in and 99% ironically said that they majored in something useless. Happy?
Yes.
It shows your ignorance.
Now you want to explain how suppositions gibe with programing?
After you explain to me how I can take somebody serious who, in this day and age still uses the word gibe?
Had to google that , eh?
A major in art history or gender studies is useful. Don't say stupid things.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA wow....hehehe I needed that laugh. Thanks.
I have a guy working for me now on an H1-B visa, putting all you dopes out of a job.
I think they are much more useful than computer degrees. You can learn about computers on your own using books. Art history and gender studies help you to become a critical thinker. Computer science is just about learning the dreary ways of interacting with machines in a logical way.
I lead a small team of computer programmers. I never formally studied programming. While I was doing my masters in music, I tried taking a few classes in the computer science department, but they were extremely boring. The professors were just reading out of books. No critical thought or discussion. I quit those classes and learned on my own. It was easy enough, especially now with the Internet.
You do realize the fact that you majored in something useless as music and then picked up programming and work with that pretty much validates my point right?
Music and Art useless? I guess one day we'll all be going down to the freaking club/theater or concert to watch someone like you mentally masturbating at his computer...
Computer science and engineering is useless and you can't find a job in your eyes but Music and Art isn't. Are you saying immigrants can't pick up brushes or sing you racist? Why you posting here aren't you late for your Klan meeting?
John, I never said Computer science is useless or engineering either..I work in it actually....But in the private sector, if a company that's not involved in defense wants to use programmers in China or India as opposed to pricey ones in the US, they do.
Look what else is getting off-shored:
http://www.consystentinfo.com/outsource-tax-preparation-india.htm
Since everything costs so much in the US I have all my medical/dental work done in Costa Rica also..
We don't need to really do anything here actually...Not your job or mine...
As far as I'm concerned, it's all important..Music, Art, Computer science...I just would like it to be done by Americans and for Americans..
So yes I'm prejudiced. I'm for the advancement of the American and American worker....Yep I'm a big Racist for my fellow Americans ..You bet.
You are since you are using immigrants in your discussion only to suite your retarded point. I've had 4 private sector jobs based on computing and not once did they run on outsourced individuals. I'm not saying my experiences are the final word but logically, anything important when it comes to programming you want done in house so you can manage easier. That's just common sense. Tech support and IT is BS and can be handled remotely so that gets outsourced easier but the more difficult stuff that I work with doesn't. What do you do specifically i'm curious. OWS people have a nasty habit of being vague as general please stop that.
I can't really tell you what I do not on here. I really couldn't...It's technology related though and you do rely on it. It pays very well also.
On outsourcing...Try working at UBS..they have lots of H1-B's and they don't just do tech support.
My point is that I'm for American people having jobs, I don't like off-shoring, FTA's that don't benefit our people or sweatshops in other countries.
I also don't like it when some uninformed smart assed "kid" or adult gets on this forum and tries to tell people how mistaken they are for protesting this broken system. The grievances are real. The corporate takeover of the government is arguably complete.
We used to have a less narrow, more available version of this thing we call freedom...These OWS people realize that.
No. I started programming before I started studying music. I have been programming since the age of 8. I started studying music when I was 10. I still work as a musician. I could do it full time, but I like computer programming as well, so I divide my time between these two jobs.
Saying that a music or art degree is useless is being really simple minded, and, essentially, really dump.
Great......but you're still doing computer work and that makes you money.......and that was my point. What you are doing, assuming you aren't lying is perfectly fine. People should major in the useless stuff like I said but treat it as a hobby and have something more practical on the side. Nothing wrong with that.
I don't think usefulness is only about money. To think that a philosophy, art, or music degree is useless because it doesn't easily lead to high paying job is naïve and short sighted. There are many things more important than money like culture and to art of critical thought.
Everyone is entitled to do whatever they want and to take whatever risks they feel they should in life. I will not argue that. If people want to major in the history of Star Trek then I could care less. What OWS appears to be though is a collection of young individuals who didn't major in something that is widely in demand and because of that they are out of college and can't find a job in a very tough economy. They are in turn blaming the banks, republicans and whoever else when the real blame should be on themselves. If you are willing to take the risk you need to be willing to cope with failure. OWS seems to want the people who didn't live so vicariously to forgive them of all their debt and to just give them a job because they deserve it. That isn't how life works. We are having this dickish back and forth but like I said, I honestly respect your decision for hedging your bets and keeping a practical job while pursuing a love on the side. I bet things can be tough for you but you work through it. That's great. I also bet the majority of your peers at OWS are not the same. They demand to have everything handed to them. This is why they get perceived as spoiled children. I really don't think it's too much to ask people to take responsibility for their actions. I graduated during the worst of the recession and have had 3 jobs since, all which I left voluntarily and all have been better than the last. College wasn't as fun as it would have been if I majored in film like my friends did but I now live a very comfortable life thanks to my choice. Everyone out there has this same exact chance to make it big. I'm not about to bail out people who made the wrong choice and are throwing a temper tantrum.
Assuming OWS protesters are people who studied in film, art history and the like and that they are now complaining about their situation like children is simplistic and flat out wrong. One of the major protesters for this movement is the computer programmer for this website. She's been on the front lines since the beginning. I don't support all the goals and tactics of OWS myself, but there are serious problems to take care of.
You have a simple mind. You shouldn't use is it to discuss politics. Stick to computer programming. I'm sure you're better at that.
Hahaha wow. I don't know what to say to that. I offer you a compliment and you dismiss my whole statement as simple minded. I guess it's easier to insult and dismiss then to discuss. Guess I hit a nerve so that's good. Just please don't call me a racist for your next trick please.
I guess there isn't much more to say. I have one more request to ask though. You didn't answer my question in a previous statement when I asked what kind of programming you did. Can you let me know? I'm really curious.
I started programming when I was 8. I went through many phases from lower languages like assembler to higher ones like Lua. I used a lot of music languages also like Csound, Max/MSP, and SuperCollider. These days, I'm mostly programming backend systems for various web apps.
Ok you don't do any serious programming just as I thought. You're a complete bullshitter. Figures you are a OWS supporter. All about half truths and manipulation.
electrical and computer engineering.
Lay off the glue sniffing junior and watch "Inside Job" documentary.
A sophomore in college and yet so uneducated. obviously doesn't see that generations have gone buy with full time jobs and ending on a pension after forty or fifty years of dedication .. while the wealthy will make more in a week than the hard working man makes in a lifetime .. but poster thinks everything is just fine .. put your back down and go to work .. just like its always been .. I guess the poster must have an opportunity to be one of those wealthy back-riders ..
I don't really know what jbob's problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.
lol .. I will hold off on that bet
Hey hippies with Liberal Arts degrees, please read this http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/want-a-job-go-to-college-and-dont-major-in-architecture/?hp
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Sophomore? Go back to grade school and learn how to put some ideas together to form a cohesive argument.
Either that, or learn how to bait 101 from your area supervisor.
Your going to be singing a different tune when reality bitch slaps you upside the head. O Im sad, Mommy!! there are people who are pissed off!!! but I graduated college!!! why are they only offering me $7.50/hr!!!!! Im sad
except minimum wage is higher than that? i already have a jobthat pays more than that? and im getting an engineering degree. its not easy, at all, but im doing it so i dont have to rely on a minimum wage job or the government.
go back to sheeple 101, jackass.
Your college education hasn't helped you with spelling, punctuation, capitalization...
as you end your sentence with 3 periods, and don't use and/or in between "spelling, punctuation, capitalization."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis
This Bob guy is TROLLING, or she is a little rich princess
clever. you are the type of person that post was directed to. you have no idea what you are talking about and you are making the occupy movement look like a bunch of dumbasses by posting things like this.
So now you're concerned about OWS looking "like a bunch of dumbasses"? That's totally disingenuous. You already expressed your contempt of the whole movement. You aren't concerned about its image at all: you object to its very existence.
And you wonder why people here react negatively to your hostility borne of ignorance? Do you go into someone else's house just to tell them them they are all shits? Would you expect those people to be nice to you if you did?
You came here to troll. You are an arrogant, ignorant little spoiled brat. Learn something about economics. Learn something about this movement before you condemn it based on zero knowledge. You are in college to help you acquire SOME critical thinking skills, to learn how to gather evidence on which to base conclusions. You have not done so yet. When you do, come back here and add something constructive. Until then, crack a book and be grateful you have the opportunity to do so.