Forum Post: Its not the 1%, its the 99%
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 14, 2011, 1:26 p.m. EST by CommonSense75
(37)
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Everyone needs a scapegoat. You can't take the blame for yourself, so you throw it on Wall Street. The economy is not a pie, it is infinite. Just because they have money, doesn't mean you get any less. The real problem is people spending beyond their means. Anyone with a job can survive. They may not live well, but they can survive. If they wish for a higher quality of living then work for a raise or promotion. The problem is people living as if they have more money than they do, amassing debt, and then not paying it off. That hurts them, and whoever they took the loan from. Its not Wall Street. Its you and me.
America is about not despising your neighbor for having more than you, but rather motivating you to do better, providing the framework to make that possible.
I agree 100%. People forget their days as kids running a lemonade stand, or selling cookies. If you really want to make a difference in this country, and in your own life, start your own business and start moving money through the economy.
From the US Dept of Labor: "Entrepreneurs drive America's economy, accounting for the majority of our nation's new job creation and innovations. According to the U. S. Census Bureau's 2002 Survey of Business Owners, self-employed individuals who have no paid employees operate three-fourths of U.S. businesses. The U. S. Small Business Administration reports that America's 25.8 million small businesses employ more than 50 percent of the private workforce, generate more than half of the nation's gross domestic product, and are the principal source of new jobs in the U.S. economy" (http://www.dol.gov/odep/pubs/fact/entrepreneurship.htm).
How about this one for you (quoted on a blog site, but shows good sources for the info):
"A good statistic sheet for what makes up an entrepreneur. [Top 10 Problems Facing Small Businesses.]
Now, please notice that cost of health insurance is at the top of the list. Also, the taxes and government regulations (which the supposed and misleading "99%" believe in) make up 5... 5 of the top 10 problems facing the very people that run our economy. Finally, at the very bottom are employees wages.
Here is what I can see from just a quick research on the topic. Bring government taxes down and employers and business owners can afford to hire more people, or raise the pay for their employees, or both.
Here is my advice... don't sit in a park for a month protesting against those that drive the economy. Go make your own future. The government has proven that it can't secure your future for you, so go do it yourself!
That assumes there is no malice in the system.
" CommonSense75The economy is not a pie, it is infinite. Just because they have money, doesn't mean you get any less."
So if i somehow found a way to transport every physically printed bill into my home more would just appear some where else magically?
Or better yet our money is not based on the physical value of something? It used to be gold Now it is our gross domestic product.
This statement alone makes money look like something that is grown on trees....well i have looked and as of yet i can find no money tree seeds.
Money moves through an economy just like water moves through the pipes in your home. The current issue is the fact that we removed all the regulators and let people (banks corporations ect...) change the flow of those pumps so they go to the top of the system with nearly 0 flow back down. Well the reservoir at the bottom is now drying up, and unless we get things back to a proper flow it will stop all together.
Here here! Personal responsibility is key to a successful future. Simply blaming others is not the way to be! Thanks for the great post!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Saturday-Night-Politics/194650163906116
Like you I do work my butt off nearly 80 hours weekly(sometimes more). I dont get much sleep but i love my job(I work with mentally handicapped adults 2 jobs and a government related job i don't feel comfortable mentioning). And you'll never guess how much I make between all three. Just over 45000. But I'm happy doing it; even though I wish I made more money and didn't pay into things I'll see nothing fiscally from. I'm sure you have children. And if I had children I don't think I'd ever want them to have to do with less then I have I'd want them to have more or the same if anything. The supposed "1%" is getting all these tax breaks, bailouts which are splitting us back into two main classes and making the middle class extinct. Here in lies the problem and its not even a new one. I can put all of my time and effort into working with autistic adults and no matter what if I would like to work directly with them I only see $10.00 hrly from one job and $12.79 from another(in suffolk county new york). I've been in this field for about 4-5 yrs collectively between the 2 jobs and over that time have not seen one raise. I have received one bonus to date though($120 which was not performance based btw). I can understand that maybe you don't think this line of work is important but there are a lot of parents who can't take care of there children on there own and sometimes not at all who may feel differently. So to say that I'm not trying is somewhat of an insult. I pay my bills on time I don't complain to my bosses and I don't want to change my position because I feel it is the most vital to the line of work I'm in. This includes sometimes putting myself in physical danger to protect myself from my clients or sometimes to protect them from themselves. I sacrifice sleep/skin/and my own mental health regularly. Why should I be penalized and live a sub par quality life where I do and have done so much to help make other people lives easier/safer/ and more fulfilling? Not at all rhetorical, by the way, and this isn't meant to be mean spirited at all. I'm just trying to make you understand where some people may be coming from. We work take care of our families and help others but with so little to show from it...
and by the way, where I live, $45000 is no where near enough to live comfortably. Most people here would say you need at least 100k to be ok. An average 3 br ranch is roughly 400k and up depending on the quality(400k being a fixer upper)
reality check - the system is corrupt - schemers, liars and thieves pervade the economy - the scales of justice are one-sided - that would be the 1% getting more than their FAIR share... HA . Read more about the movement.
Government , financial regulations and corporate behavior must all chagne and change radically in order for there to be a turnaround that creates a fair and just society. We can't keep going as we are - we are failing - the financial structure is broken and its time us 99% ers dig in and help to create new systems.
Create a more just system whereby FINANCIAL institutions CAN"T lend people money who can't repay - IT WAS THE GREEDY BANKERS who did this... It is wall street not taking responsibility for the community at large - Make them all play nice - make them all treat everyone the same. no more payoffs - no more scams... dump existing systems... build new that will HELP OUR SOCIETY and ECONOMIES grow!
I agree with the original post. The occupy wall-street group appear to me and my friends (regular working Americans - not wealthy) to be whiners who made bad decisions and find it easier to blame others than to take responsibility for their lives.
Growing up means taking charge of your own life. It does not mean sticking your hand out to the overly powerful, intrusive and burdensome federal government for handouts (including student loans, cheap mortgages, two year long un-employment benefits, etc. - none of which the gov't should provide).
It also does not mean generating antagonism and petty jealousy against those who've worked hard and made something of themselves and became wealthy in the process.
My heros have always been business people, not teachers or artists or jock athletes. But Business people. You know, those that invest a lot of their own time and money (yes - borrowed from banks, representing our own savings) and hire others to help build a company. To vilify them and the financial industry that helps make this possible is counter productive and will lead to lower employment and wealth creation for all. Our $$$ already flow to other countries where it's easier to build factories and employ individuals who are happy to have jobs.
These protests only serve to make the future worse, not better
Francis
well said
Valid points, my counter would be that this is not about hand-outs or blaming success. This movement, to me, is about two very important things:
Way too much corporate money is going into politics, and we feel it is skewing the American political and economic climate unfairly in favor of big business, at the expense of small business owners and regular working Americans.
Our political and media discourse has become uncivil. Granted a good number of people in this movement aren't helping, but I think a lot of us would like to see more civil discourse. In particular we'd like the media to start engaging in journalism instead of punditry and sensationalism. Those of us toward the left would like it if the word socialism wasn't immediately greeted with hostility, so that we could talk about what we mean and don't mean by the word. I promise you that what I mean by it is not as scary as certain pundits would lead you to believe.
I hope that helps clarify things.
INFINITE!? LMAO WHAT!? If our economy was "infinite" whatever that rubbish means, it sounds to me like there wouldn't be any NEED for a job. Everything would be absolutely free! Oh man, tell us another good one!
Please. Take an economics class then come back.
Or, I could just give you one.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Topics/HighSchool/Scarcity.html
"In economics, scarcity refers to limitations—insufficient resources, goods, or abilities to achieve the desired ends. Figuring out ways to make the best use of scarce resources or find alternatives is fundamental to economics."
It's called scarcity.
Perhaps you're just misusing terminology when you call our economy "infinite".
I asked our head accountant where I work. He has an MBA and a masters in economics. He said that while there is theoretically infinite wealth in a pure economic system, our current economic system and all that we can conceive of are non-pure, that is, they are economic systems that do not function by themselves alone in a bubble. These economic systems are dependent on a number of finite factors in the world that make it impossible for them to be infinite. Economic factors like finite resources and even non-economic factors like the second law of thermodynamics make this so (our accountant has a bachelors in physics).
He also said that if our economy were truly infinite, everyone would be both the richest and the poorest person in the system while at the same time there would be no such thing as richest and poorest.
I personally don't know much about this stuff, but he's an economist, and he doesn't accept what you've said.
Spending beyond one's means is indeed a HUGE problem in this country and has been for decades. However, when the 99% spend beyond their means, they go into debt and hopefully turn things around; when the 1% go into debt, they suck up more funds from the 99% to pay it off and go on creating more debt.
Honestly, this is a fair argument. As I stated in another comment, I haven't taken an economics course in a few years, and am a little foggy on the details. I simply remember my professor drilling into our heads "more for him is not less for you."
What evil shit do you do for a living? Which family member/family friend got you your job?
I'm an electrical engineer. I got my job through education and hard work. Sorry if that makes me evil.
No one thinks you are evil for working hard, pleas don't think we are all lazy and think the government should just give us everything. It's funny, I'm a Marxist so people think I don't believe in work and should have everything handed to me and yet Marxism is about rewarding working and punishing not working. From each according to his capacity, to each according to his contribution, is the Marxist credo for socialism.
No one thinks you are evil for working hard, pleas don't think we are all lazy and think the government should just give us everything. It's funny, I'm a Marxist so people think I don't believe in work and should have everything handed to me and yet Marxism is about rewarding working and punishing not working. From each according to his capacity, to each according to his contribution, is the Marxist credo for socialism.
No help, huh?
An application. Those tend to help. As do college degrees.
Honest question. Have you taken a college level economics class?
Yes, its been a few years, but I have.
I agree with what you say - but the pie is definitely not infinite.
In many places it is a zero sum game. In others it is not. At the end of the day, it is limited based on many factors.
You can't take economic theory from a laboratory and closed environment and expect it to work without a modification to understanding.
Fair enough. The point I was trying to get across is that Wall Street executives having lots of money doesn't necessarily mean that you (the people) have less.
Well, yes and no.
It depends on a lot of factors. Even with the ability to print and dilute the dollar, the wealth does pool.
With this said, even with the cards stacked against you, one can change position.
Again - I think the issues that OWS has been fighting have changed over this past week. The prevailing thought last week was "get money out of politics" and "end corporate personhood". The prevailing thought this week is "end capitalism" and "socialist/communist/Marxist talking points".
The economy is infinite. It is accepted by every economist there is. The economy is not a pie to be split up, one person having more doesn't make you have any less. Ask any economist.
I don't know what economy you're living in but it is surely not infinite. I have a job, no debt, no car payment. I am "surviving". Raises and promotions? Right. Layoffs are far more likely. Wall Street took a loan from the American people to shore itself up after many of its members made financial decisions that sank this country into the abyssmal conditions it currently faces. An entry level position nearly anywhere is still below the poverty line. Health insurance companies have driven the cost of health care to unbelievable highs. Tax breaks for the wealthy to "stimulate job growth" have only lined the pockets of the 1%. Companies that are hiring are sticking to parttimers, and then make scheduling so someone can get a second job nearly impossible. Once upon a time, communities and people looked out for each other. Now, its every man for himself. Very sad commentary on a nation that once prided itself on the availability of the American dream, and helped one another achieve it.
Come on, take a high school level economics course and you will learn that the economy is indeed infinite (not in the sense that there is infinite currency and resources, but in the sense that the more money is given to others, the more there is for yourself). The economy is not a "he has more so I must have less" game. On the other hand, you are right. Layoffs are a lot more likely than promotions or raises right now. But almost everyone in this country could get some sort of job. If you apply yourself and have proper education, you will be able to survive. Like you said, you have no debt or car payment. That is what it takes for many people to survive, myself included. Times are hard, but blaming Wall Street for it, and asking them to... whatever you're asking them to do, is not the way top solve it. Everyone "occupying" Wall Street should be working, or looking for work. Debt needs to be paid of, and money put into the economy. Wall Street doesn't need to become a Hooverville.
Amen brother, well said. There is some hope for our country after all.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Topics/HighSchool/Scarcity.html
Scarcity is not about opportunity, or wealth, or anything that we are talking about, ShockSMH. It refers to, as quoted by your own link, resources, goods, and abilities. Yes, it will include money, because money is not "infinite". But scarcity has nothing to do with the idea of wealth, and a rich person vs. a poor person. fyi buddy...
The economy has as much wealth as we are able to produce. This is hard for peeps to understand.
Peeps don't want to hear about how, not really Wall St, but the government is actually the one squelching wealth in this country and limiting the abilities of the poor to move all the way up to the rich.
Thank you. I agree completely.
If the top 1% hoard all of the profits instead of paying the many people working in the many industries that make the economy successful fair wages, then they are obviously taking money from the working people and hoarding it for their great-grandchildren.
And this wouldn't be a problem in a freer market, where there's not corporatism and cartelization of industries. You want to know why there isn't much competition for energy or cars? The government has created cartels! They put so much regulation, so much licenses, expenses, inspection, and the line on companies that already exist that it's virtually impossible to even start a new company. So we have these companies that have now become corrupt, and there's no way for new competition to drive them honest or drive them out of business. They government has created a stranglehold on these industries (for the benefit of the companies already existing).
That's why there are multiple companies. If one doesn't pay well enough, they lose their workers to those that do. I realize that lately this may not be quite working to perfection, but I still do not believe that the way to solve this is to go sit on Wall Street. I believe the only way to solve this is to work and spend money to improve the economy.
lol - Dude. I like your spirit in a way understand what you are saying. The economy is a cruel master when people save money - read that hide money in foreign bank accounts or like corporations today - keep 2 Trillion dollars overseas and don't hire with it - the economy stalls and may crash.
When real unemployment is 25% we have reached the limit of how much money can be hidden away without any taxes being paid on it and so on. Im all for freedom - economic and political - but let's be rational. People are suffering and can't afford to pay more taxes, we are engaged in two major wars now ten years, gave away a little over a trillion dollars to the richest Americans as a tax break we couldn't afford....should I continue?
this viewpoint represents a wholesale lack of understanding of basic economics and turns a blind eye to how government interference has created many of the problems we face today.
Wall Street was bailed out by the US government after the government forced banks to make crappy mortgage loans to people who could not really afford them. The loans were not quality so the banks bundled and sold these sub-prime loans thru Wallstree to anyone foolish enough to buy: pension funds, retirement funds, mutual funds,, etc. You know OUR retirement investments.
Then finally the over blown realestate market collapsed as it had too, and the government once again stepped in to keep wallstreet alive so that capital could continue to flow to industry (you know, the companies that make & sell the computers, shoes, ipods, cars and other stuff you are using RIGHT NOW).
And about those rich 1%'ers, what do you think they do with their (b)millions? Stuff it in to a mattress? NO, they invest it into companies, mutual funds, market funds, etc. This allows people like you and I to get loans to buy our computers for only $50 a month form Dell, or to buy cars on credit, to even HAVE a credit card. IF the gov't takes all their money, there goes YOUR credit!
It's a circular game. If you hurt the wealthy, you end up hurting yourself.
Regulation - Yes! Retribution/Jealosy - NO
shut the fuck up
Nice, well thought-out, articulate argument there. I can tell this movement really knows what its talking about.
a lil humor...got to lighten things up when assholes are messing around
I'm an asshole because I stated my opinion on a public forum? Sorry, you're right, people should never state their opinion. Imbecile.
You didn't state this as your opinion. You stated this as a fact. I mean, you're not really saying that the idea of the infinite economy is your OPINION, are you? I thought everything you were saying rests on this being a FACT.
If you're stating it as a fact, I have doubts about whether or not it's a true fact given the information I wrote about in my other post that I received from someone with more qualifications in the field than you.
If you're stating it as an opinion, you have not provided a cogent or rationally compelling argument to back it up.
I was stating it as a fact, as far as my knowledge of the subject reaches. It appears it may not be as true as I was taught, but the basic principle of my argument still stands.
But the basic principle of your argument rests on the fact that the economy is infinite, doesn't it? Otherwise, the 1% really are getting their money from somewhere else in a finite system. And if that's true, then there's plenty of evidence to suggest that they're getting it from the 99%. I really can't even think of where else they could be getting it from so long as the system is finite, which means you either have to believe 1) the system is indeed infinite or 2) the 1% are taking more and more money from the 99%.
Here's one big piece of evidence that the system is not infinite: the credit default swap mess that was largely responsible for the 2008-2009 economic disaster. The 1% were essentially just making up shit to bet on, and then making up ways to bet on the bets, then making up ways to insure the whole thing with money they didn't have, etc. They might have thought that because the economy is infinite, making up new shit to bet on makes perfect sense; after all, you don't have to take anything from the 99%--you can just increase the size of your 1% at will! But when the crappy loans the whole thing was founded on couldn't be paid, the finite-ness of the system brought everything in the supposedly infinite system crashing down.
If the economy were truly infinite, this wouldn't have happened, because the shit they were making up to bet on would've had no effect on the 99%, since, as your professor said, more for them would not be less for us. However, clearly there is less for us since the 2008 crash (and from well before that, as well), so the idea of the infinite economy doesn't hold water in the real world.
Therefore, you surely believe, unless you have solid counter-evidence to the contrary, that the 99% is indeed taking more and more money from the 1%. Yet you still seem to feel as if though the protesters could pull themselves up by their boostraps if they just got out and applied for some jobs, went back to school, worked hard, etc., since you have been able to do these things yourself and are "surviving' comfortably.
However, there is evidence that this too isn't really grounded in reality. Current data show that there are 4.6 applicants for every job available, and with an estimated 14 million people out of work (according to the September BLS report), that's still nearly 11 million people out of work even if every single open job was filled today. Further, those jobs would mostly likely be filled by older, more experienced workers, leaving the younger workers, who have been told their whole lives that they can be anything they want if they just work hard and go to college, to fend for the scraps and hope for some luck in the job market.
The 14 million people out of work doesn't count the millions more who are underemployed, for whom, unlike you, "survival" has a much more primordial meaning, i.e., "survival" as in "my care needs a new transmission but I can't pay for it now" versus "survival" as in "I have no money for food until I get paid in three weeks."
With so many unemployed or underemployed, not to mention those already in debt from school loans, the idea of going back to school to get a better degree isn't a possibility for millions of people right now.
There's certainly a lot to be said for hard work and climbing the ladder out of poverty, but, as people sometimes say, there has to be a ladder to climb out on, and the ladder that's in place really isn't in the safest shape... probably wouldn't even meet OSHA standards. As to why the ladder is in such bad shape, well, that's part of what this movement is about.
To sum up, your idea that the economy is infinite seems flawed at best, and your idea that these people could help themselves by just going back to school or applying for some jobs doesn't reflect current data on matters that would affect them doing so.
There are many issues at hand here and greed and jealousy is at the root of it.
A perfect example is the auto industry. Auto companies made promises to unions that employees could retire at 65 with full benefits and a percent of their final years salary. So what happened? All overtime when to people who were 64 to boost their compensation so they could have higher benefits in retirement. In order to pay for these greedy practices, pension fund managers had to go out and find yield somewhere. They went to the capital markets and when there wasn’t enough capital in the system, people engineered securities that would provide these pension funds with cash flows in order to pay their obligations. (this is all theoretical and has no historic basis or fact and just a way to illustrate how the greed of a few can cause harm to the whole) These market makers realized they can sell these securities to many other types of investors such as insurance companies. Insurance companies need less collateral because they are getting higher returns so home owners insurance costs go down (as well as other types of insurance) and more people can afford a home or a second home. John Smith sees his neighbor Joe Brown just bought a second home so he says “hey, I can afford that at these rates and with the money owed to me from my pension.” So that turns into more construction, more jobs, more money, more unions, more pensions, and new capital in the form of mortgages that market makers can then securitize to perpetuate this cycle. People get their second homes and they realize they want a boat or another car or they want to send their kids to college so they dont have to work at an auto plant. So more debt is created in the form of auto/boat loans and student loans and the spiral continues. (I completely skipped the part where as their children grow up, they need all the cool new toys and clothes so they fit in at school and don’t get bullied or picked on. That would add to credit card debt which is another form of cash flows that are securitized and is based on greed and jealousy as well)
So the next generation has grown up seeing what their parents have (2 houses, 4 cars, a boat, a jetski, etc) and because its taboo to talk about money, these kids have no idea how much debt their parents are actually in. And by the time they are all grown up, the debt is paid off, their parents have retired and are now living on their artificially inflated pension from the auto plant they worked at. The children graduate college and say "I'm educated, i dont want to work on an assembly line" and they are justified in saying this. I mean ever since they were a kid everyone has told them they can be whatever they want to be. Why would they have to drive a cab, or clean a toilet, or deliver food? Those jobs are for the uneducated. But what happens next is where we are currently.
These over educated, over debt ridden, selfish, entitled, bratty kids graduate from their 4yr college (whose price is extra inflated because no one wants to work in an auto plant anymore) and can’t find their dream job that pays them $60k a year and allows them to live like the spoiled kings and queens they have become. So they become hipsters and liberals and socialists and Marxists thinking “I’m educated! I took econ 101, 102, 201, 202 and 301. I know macro-theory and understand what a GDP deflator is so I know what’s best for this country! Redistribute the wealth! The richest 1% are stealing from the other 99%. Corporations are evil and jobs should be brought back to the US. I have an idea, we can use Facebook and Twitter to get all the other educated lazy people like me to protest. It worked for other causes, maybe we can really change how the ENTIRE WORLD OPPERATES.”
I agree that jobs should be brought back to the US and corporations should invest in America, but because of the greed of those auto workers, it’s not economic to do so right now. Until we have educated people lower their expectations that they will be given everything they need for the cookie cutter livestyle and learn that you, and your country, become great by working your way up from the bottom, nothing will change.
The economy is infinite, but only through innovation (and not made up securities). So go take a job at McDonalds, work there and figure out a way to innovate what they do and start your own business. Drive a cab and understand how traffic works and people think in order to develop a new city plan or a new form of art (drift art?). But I do know this, sitting in a park or picketing Jamie Diamond’s house is NOT going to make things better for you or anyone else. So stop wasting government resources (that could be going to people who really need it) and work!
What’s made America the land of opportunity is the ability of its citizens (and migrant workers) to innovate and be compensated for contribution to society. So get off your high horse, get a shitty job or three and come up with an idea that can get you in that 1%. Then you might stop complaining that you have nothing. And when you do make it (and 99% of us won’t), thank those bankers and market makers for lending you the capital you needed to get your ideas off the ground.
This is the Occupy Wall Street forum, go post your opinion on the Fox News forum.
You don't want anyone to argue with you? Do you not have any evidence to support your claims? Or are you just an asshole?
You are probably a selfish racist homophobe devoid of empathy. Just a guess.
Personal attacks because of my opinion? You guys just keep improving my view of you. No, I am not selfish, I am not racist, and I am not a homophobe. And I have empathy. Two of my best friends are black and gay, respectively.
how did I know you would use the word imbecile...is that what mommie use to call you?
Bravo. Tally another one for the immaturity of OWS.