Forum Post: Is it wrong for me to work on Wall St?
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 14, 2011, 11:14 a.m. EST by wrokerbee
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i work for an investment bank. i'm not very high up. mainly i write computer programs to automate things that were previously done manually by traders like calculating risk and pricing small trades. i'm curios, do you think thats that wrong? is it unethical for me to do this? why?
i will also give my 2 cents on the issues here. i understand that life is getting more difficult for the middle and lower classes in many ways. the cost of essential things like education, healthcare and food are going up fast. meanwhile the fed thinks inflation is low because the prices of smartphones and peoples houses are going down. i also get that there was some degree of fraud and predatory lending perpetrated by the banks. but i'm not convinced the behavior of the banks is a primary cause of the struggle of the middle class. the banks might be responsible for 1% of it, but i don't think they are responsible for 10% of it or 50% of it (i would be interested if someone had evidence to quantify this connection). the financial system has its issues, but the medical system, the educational system and the agricultural system are more screwed up and a more important cause of the problems in our country.
banks are middlemen. we take money from people who have it but don't have anything to do with it (investors) and move it to people who have something to do with it (borrowers and issuers). all the complexity is just about trying to figure out which money should go where and working out the details of how to move it around. we had a financial crisis because the investors moved their money to the wrong people. yes the banks sold the the products to them should get some blame but the investors are ultimately responsible for their investments. i mean honestly, anyone who has lived in america 15 minutes should know not to totally trust someone trying to sell you something. why is no one protesting the people who actually bought the mortgages?
well, i guess this turned into something of a rant. feeling somewhat hated can be frustrating. i do think its good to have a discussion.
Thank you for your point of view. But it's not really you that's the problem. It's people who give themselves bonuses in the face of layoffs and poor company performance that are to blame. It's the people who have lavish employee getaways while their companies go to wreck and ruin that are to blame.
It's the people who outsource their jobs to other countries, and play the "race-to-the-bottom" game with wages that are to blame.
You are not to blame. You are a cog in the wheel. If anything, you should be upset that the company you work for is allowing things like that to happen. And I'm sure they are happening.
Bottom line: It's the CEO. It's the Board. It's the crooked leadership. That's who this is about...
Sure you have to make a living and it sounds like you weren't one of the greedy scoundrels the protests are about. But do you think that the salaries and bonuses of many of the investment bankers are warranted? Isn't it shameful to ride only in corporate jets, when 20% of NY lives in poverty? Are people that move money around that much more important than teachers, who are constantly attacked for their attempts to fight for reasonable compensation? Why not use your brains to add something useful or meaningful to our economy and to the world? What a waste that such smart people are dedicating their lives to making money out of nothing.
Of course we can't expect wall street investors to voluntarily hand their money to the government or to regulate themselves. Capitalism rewards greed. We should be protesting in droves on capitol hill.
Of course its ok for you to be here! As far as I am concerned, it is not wrong for you to work on Wall Street. We all need to make a living. It is sad that you feel hated. I am so sorry that you feel that way. I don't think the intent of this protest is to make people feel hated.
I don't hate people on Wall Street. I strongly dislike some of the things that Wall Street has done. I think there were many contributing factors to the financial crises. But I think Wall Streets reckless and criminal greed was, by far, the biggest and most damaging contributor. I think that Wall Street should be brought to justice for their crimes. The people that were making the decisions, and the institutions themselves. It does not sound like you are one of those decision makers.
Please do not feel hated. Your job does not define the person that you are on the inside!
The boards have control. The investors vote for the board member the same way you vote for a politician, your options are limited to very few choices. Responsibility is not the point to me. The banks primarily caused the foreclosure crisis and did what they did because they could. Everyone knows that the banks should not have been allowed to do many things that they did, but nothing has been done about any of these things. Many banks lent to people who could not afford homes (predatory lending) and there has been no enforcement of existing predatory lending laws, and no new laws nor beefing up of enforcement going forward. Many banks committed fraud by selling loans they knew were bad and nothing has come of that. Many banks covered themselves against the default of loans they knew would default, and when the companies that were covering them were going bankrupt the Federal Gov even stepped in and provided taxpayer money to cover them (some enforcement...huh). The banks then proceeded to foreclose on the homes and dump them on the market cheap, completely obliterating home values and the wealth of nearly all Americans, and still there has been no substantial response from America. I would suggest that banks were in fact the problem this time. I would also suggest that the amount of money generated by this fraud was used to smooth things out with the powers that should have been protecting our country, because I do not see any other possible way that our leaders could be so incredibly apathetic. I feel that it is a big enough crisis so that the Justice Department and the FBI should investigate all politicians who have been in power over the last 5 years for collusion with the banks. I feel that the people need to force substantive systemic change to contain and prevent this. We need something that rationally limits the number of foreclosure properties on the market, such as licensing foreclosure sales. We need to prevent banks that lend from investing in derivatives that could enable them to cover themselves in such a way as to be a conflict of interest for their lending practices.
The common theme among this movement is people lumping corporations into one single, evil entity. The major corporations that this movement want to shut down are providing food and a home for my children. Targeting these corporations will have very little impact on the personal fortunes of the "Greedy scoundrels" who are at the top of the ladder, and have access to a corporation's coffers. In fact, targeting these corporations targets me. An average joe who worked his ass off through college to get a decent enough job toprovide for his kids. A john q. public who began his adult life working as a mechanic, as a construction worker, as a warehouse laborer, and, when he had children, decided to raise them in an elevated environment. A joe nobody who spends most of his money on private school for his kids so they can get a decent education, because the public school system in america is sadly overlooked by protestors who think that wall street is the root of all evil.
Don't target my children and I. Don't take my job and put us on the street.
I am in the "99%", and yet I am being protested against, just for making a living. I can't see the fairness in that.
Unless you are lobbying Washington D.C. or contributing $Millions to political campaigns... go back to your cubicle and start coding! he he
Agents, working on behalf of the banking and financial institutions, in a very clever and actually rather brilliant way, bought out our government. They pushed the message of deregulation and these shady investment tools through under the guises of free market capitalism, then used these tools they knew to be dodgy, to get rich quick at the expense of working class America.
If you're not a derivatives trader or one of these coke addled, prostitute addicted wannabe wall street wise guys, than I'd say you're absolved from culpability. But thats just me.
That is a very good point Mr. Workerbee. The banks are a sort of "middle man" and I'm not blaming you, your out there trying to make a living right? The education system and the agricultural system are both INDUSTRIES first, second, and last, that's a problem and stifles the innovation of social solutions.
The kicker about the banks is how they make their money? Fees and interest rates right? The "it's just business" type of business man might roll his eyes and say "yeah but the banks have to make money somehow?" And it true isn't it? They do but the nature of how they make it is their biggest problem.
Interest/usury has a quality that no institution can make good on. In short it's a something from nothing scheme that by the design strengthens the banks at a rate that is many times more than the one that is being charged interest, whom by the nature of the transaction is being weakened at the same rate. I'm sure that as a banker you can see the NUMBERS that undeniably state money is being made this way. So the banks aren’t doing anything on there end to make this money where as the one being charged the loan can't work hard enough to pay it.
The bank only argues there is a risk that must be covered. That is only rhetoric; interest isn't covering any risks it is money being made out of "thin air" because the bank is losing no leverage. It would be different if they were doing some work to ensure that the one who took the loan is making money in order for them, the one who took the loan to profit enough to pay back the loan. They could even count the loan as an actual investment where a share of future profits are made as long as the banks continues to contribute in planning etc. This would be a partnership where the banks would turn a profit if and only if there partner was making money. That is a risk and makes them actually invested in money being made.
So there are more intelligent ways to make money where I am not taking a loan to lose any money, interest rates or not, and as the banker isn’t making loans to me that turn into a nightmare fro anyone?
Honestly I think interest can be better understood in other languages there are words that express this transaction in a more honest and comprehensive way. In English "we call it being ripped off"
But don't quit your Wall Street Job just yet WorkerBee and kudos for your healthy take on OWS. You might note that I didn't say keep your wall street job for ever because as I've attested, there are more intelligent ways to make money. On a side note you may want to read Black Swan by Nicholas Talib (former Wall Street Investor and now NY Times best seller) .
My intention was not to hurt your better sensibilities. I hope I have not failed.
I don't have an issue with you working on wall st. Then again I'm not one of these people that are endorsing , or even support OWS. I'm probably more like you , wanting to know more from the actual source and the people behind it.
I have to agree with you that wall st. has not caused many of the problems we have now. In the Great Depression there were many problems that were a factor. If you compare then and now , you will find a lot of similarities. A major stock market crash , bank failures , housing market below depression level now. A major drought , that have many people wondering if it could lead to another dust bowl. Not to mention wild fires destroying homes , crops , livestock,and peoples lives. Add on the other natural disasters. We can't forget all the wars we are involved in. If we get into money , the dollar has been devalued , which causes it to buy less. We often think that our dollar is valued at $1.00 , but it's actually valued at around $0.75-78 depends on the day.
You can forget about trying to explain to these people how the stock market works. Someone asked them a few days ago if they even knew what Wall St was and what happens there. Many couldn't answer it correctly. Many don't care to educate themselves , they just want to blindly follow others , and repeat what others have said. They do not think for themselves. Spend some more time here and you'll see this for yourself. If you get tired of the hate , and the blaming of you , wall st , and who ever else they can think of , you can always go check out the 53% http://the53.tumblr.com/ It will put a big smile on your face. :)
This "53%" is just accepting the unfair system, rather than supporting improvements. Corporations' earnings have increased, and execs have continued to take their huge bonuses and give out golden parachutes, while requiring workers to work longer hours, not hiring workers to take the burden off those working 12 hours a week 7 days a week, and in come cases, laying off workers. Many companies take on unpaid interns and call people "contractors" when they're really employees. This is illegal but people desperate for a paycheck are not going to rat out potential employers. Lets stand up for ourselves. Don't be thankful to a corporation just for employing you. They're not giving charity by employing you. They're working you for it. Why not demand some respect? I like this article: http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/eliasisquith/2011/10/14/the-53-tumblr-may-be-heartbreaking-but-its-definitely-confusing/
I have to disagree. Many of these people do not blame others for their success or failures in life. They take responsibility for their choices they have made , good or bad.They understand that they are not slaves , but yet are free. Free to work where they want , for who they want , for as long as they want or as long as a company will have them. They understand they are free to choose if they want to get into debt .
The "53%" is really the "64%", based on the most recent figures.
So I'm a fact nerd....sorry. I just like to have things accurate.
Well, there is not necessarily anything wrong with your job, unless you are involved in unethical parts of the system. If you are helping write programs that manipulate the markets through high-speed trading, then yes. What you are doing is wrong. It wouldn't be your fault that the problem exists, though. A small Tobin Tax would solve that issue anyway by making it unprofitable to use computers to shave pennies at a time on high-speed transactions.
Some of the people who bought the mortgages should share a bit of the blame, but they are already paying for their mistakes. The people on Wall Street have not paid--they've been bailed out for their mistakes. And to blame the mortgage buyers is to focus on the lowest level of the problem. The real crime was committed when WS took derivatives, bundled them, and said "Look: This is worth something, so it can be used as collateral for more fractional reserve money-creation". Then they went to gambling and lost. QE was not done to save average Americans. It was done to save a bankrupt (both monetarily and morally) system.
Don't feel hated. This isn't about you.