Forum Post: Is it really that difficult out there?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 5, 2011, 11:27 p.m. EST by VladimirMayakovsky
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I am starting to wonder what's going on out there that has got so many people so pissed off. What is it?
I feel like my family is a great example. My husband is an electrician. The work he does requires specialized skills and training, is dangerous (could kill someone if done wrong), and is physically demanding (carrying 100 pound rolls of wire). Up till about 20 or so years ago, most electricians (and this goes for pretty much everyone in the skilled trades) were represented by unions. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC workers, carpenters - all made a living (middle class) wage with health insurance, paid sick days, vacation, etc. As the government and business fought against the rights of workers to organize and for businesses to be held accountable for the treatment of their workers, skilled trade unions died. Till now, only a tiny minority of skilled tradesmen/women are in unions.
So "pro-business" folks might think this is great, right? Wrong. What has happened across pretty much ALL skilled trades is that these employers are now totally free to hire immigrant (or temporarily imported) labor for these positions. Some of them even work with actual agencies that supply workers from eastern european countries like Bosnia. Some are undocumented workers from Mexico (especially in construction). Some are from Puerto Rico, making them legal. Regardless, employers are now able to hire workers for skilled trade positions for around half of what they used to pay a unionized american worker. They rarely pay benefits, or if they do their programs suck. My husband has gone in to work with a fever of 102 because he can't afford a sick day and is afraid he would be laid off if he took one. Not a single guy on his team has received a raise in 2 years, despite the fact that they have not had a single issue with work done incorrectly or behind schedule. His employer has consistently used the excuse of "the economy" to refuse wage increases. And this is not the exception - all the electricians my husband knows are in the same boat, unless they have their own business (and who can get credit for a small business loan these days?). The only guys he knows who are being treated well work for a small, cooperative organization that is employee-owned - and they never hire because the guys who work there NEVER quit.
I think the reason people are angry is because those of us who are old enough to remember 20 years ago know that while there were always poor people, it really seemed that if you were willing to get some education, work hard, and do what you were "supposed" to do, you could do pretty well. Get a house, save a little money, take vacation once a year... Now it seems like you get education and work really hard and have to live in fear of getting sick, getting laid off, never saving enough to buy a house, never paying off the student loans you took because you thought they would help you do better, etc etc etc. And those of us who are old enough to remember KNOW that the gap between rich and poor is larger than it has ever been. Real wages for the average worker haven't increased in FORTY YEARS. This is pretty obviously not the result of a lazy workforce - productivity is also higher than it's ever been. So that's really infuriating.
I could tell you 100 other stories from people I know or have discussed the situation with - this is just one. My family's. I can say that neither my husband nor I want some government handout. We don't want our student loans erased. We don't want an increase in food stamps. All we want is a little job security, a decent wage, and some reasonable benefits in exchange for good work that profits an employer. And many people aren't getting that in this country anymore. That, I think, beyond anything else, is what "pisses people off." JMO.
And if you do the union math you will find out that for every union guy wanting more there are thousands and thousands that cant afford to pay the one union guy. Sorry for you but you dont seem sorry for anyone buy yourself. I'm willing to pay for good work. Im not willing to pay higher prices so union BOSSES can make millions and,,,,,,,, wait for it,,,,,, wait for it,,,,, union dues given to corrupt liberal democrat politicians, (obama, etc). For your story, there is many on the other side that dont agree with you.
Oh PUH-LEASE.
It's amazing that when most skilled trade workers were in unions, salaries were higher and unemployment was lower. It's one thing to negotiate lower salaries with workers if times are tough or the cost of benefits rises...and in most cases, unions are willing to work with employers if this is the case. It's quite another to say it's perfectly fine to allow employers to import labor from third world countries in an effort to drive down wages. It is absurd to force american workers to compete with workers who make $2 a day in their own countries. Just stupid - stupid for labor, stupid for the economy overall. And we're seeing the result of this kind of shootyourselfinthefoot economics in lower demand and a smaller middle class.
As I've said, if your goal is for the US to become a third world backwater, cool. Race to the bottom with wages and benefits. Know what? The third world wins. They're already AT the bottom, so you aren't going to beat them by stabbing your own workers in the back.
Once again, if unions were so great,,,, everyone would want to be in one. The math shows they dont. In fact, I just read a story where unions in Mass are trying to figure out how to stop the huge losses in union membership. There should be a waiting list to enter a union,,,,,, sorry,,, aint one. RUN away as fast as you can, seems to be what the people say about unions. But I bet your are going to paint a reallllllyyyyy pretty picture on how great unions are. LOL
The picture I am going to paint is based on facts, not on a population that has been mindfucked by corporate media for 40 years into believing that if they would just get rid of unions, then their jobs would come back. The fact is, however, that when union membership was common, the middle class was stronger, benefits were better, average income was higher, and wealth distribution was better. I don't really give a shit what public "opinion" is when it's based on absolutely nothing. And the idea that corporations will bring jobs back when workers are no longer represented. It's bullshit.
Here is an example of your GREAT salary of a current union BOSSSSSS. Posted by cmt. cmt (Tolland, CT) 1 points 4 hours ago The "boss" of the union I was in got paid less than $70,000 a year. I know - I helped write the annual budget.
This is a BOSS not a worker. If YOU think $70,000 is great for a union boss,,,, fuck me.
The "boss" of the union I was in got paid less than $70,000 a year. I know - I helped write the annual budget.
Union staff don't get paid like CEO's. In the rare cases of excessive pay, they can be voted out of office, and there are organizations within the union movement devoted to making that happen. If you have a company with __ number of employees, and compare it to a union with the same number of staff, the pay is far, far lower.
A couple of thoughts. First, if the boss got only $70,000 a year then it seems like he could make a lot more if he wasnt in the union. Whats the point of being in a union if your paid CRAP? Second, turning it around, if the UNION BOSS got only $70,000 the workers probably made FAR FAR less. Again, whats the point of being in a union? Third, turning it around again, if he is only the BOSS then he is over paid. You pick the best crap out of the three. Big union bosses make MILLIONS and YOU KNOW IT and they pay rich liberal democrat congressmen MILLIONS, while your boss got only $70,000. You are dumb as a rock.
He was there because it was work he cared about. That is important to many of us.
There were a significant number of members of the union who made more than that. I didn't make quite that much, but I was close. We had many professional members.
And your capital letters don't make you correct. CEO type salaries are very, very rare in unions. If you compare unions to the same size companies, the pay in unions is low, sometimes amazingly so.
So the point is,,,,,, if unions were so GREAT everyone would want to join one. Numbers are not in your favor.
The laws make it very hard to organize a union. Once a group wins a union election, nothing goes into effect for a year or two, on average, due to NLRB rules. The company can and does use that time to weaken the workers who worked to get the union.
NLRB records show that people are illegally fired for union activity in over a quarter of union elections. The penalties are so low that the worker suffers even when they win against an illegal firing, and the company makes out. This is very effective for the companies.
You claim, after groups win and election nothing goes into effect for a year or two. So, for argument, lets turn the calendar back 5 years. You should have a record number of new unions that started one, two, three, four years ago. Sorry, your postings are lame. If unions were so great, unions would OWN this country and they dont. For every union guy making X, I can find huge numbers of non-union guys making XX. Unions have failed by supporting union bosses with millions of dollars and then contributing to the politicians the union bosses SELECT. That is worse.
Facts are not claims. NLRB elections lead to huge delays - documented fact.
There is no reason that new unions should have started at a given time. Groups of employees are organizing at their work places all the time, wanting to affiliate with unions. It just takes an insane amount of time to get representation in place due to NLRB procedures. That discourages the formation of new union chapters - 5 years ago and now.
You seem very fond of your "millions" fiction. Having been there, I know it's not real. And when our union backed a politician, members interviewed the candidates first. Been there, done that.
"They're just doing all of those jobs that Americans don't want to do..." huh? ; )
I've seen the same with concrete guys, drywall, painters, landscaping, rock masons, sheet metal, etc., etc. Anybody who thinks that immigrant labor isn't hurting things either isn't looking or doesn't want to see it.
Exactly. And I think what anti-union people don't comprehend is that it was unions that prevented employers from hiring immigrant labor - because even if they hired a legal worker, they had to pay the same wage as they paid an american worker. So there was no incentive to hire someone from Croatia. On top of everything, many of the foreign guys my husband works with send a decent amount of their money back out of the US to wives/family overseas. So the situation hurts american workers twice. I think anti-union people think that immigrants are just picking tomatoes. They don't get that a massive part of the problem is the loss of unions that prevent this stuff.
The problem is not that electricians (at least ones that I would actually trust as far as I can throw to work on my house) are a dime a dozen. The problem is that for every skilled craftsman like your husband there are a hundred unskilled temps who can carry a wire and mostly avoid killing themselves or burning down clients' houses, and who will work for peanuts because it's better than where they came from. The difference doesn't mean much to a greedy contractor, but it means a hell of a lot to people who put in the time and effort to get good at the trade, and it means a hell of a lot to people like me who want their wiring done right.
I am pretty sure most states have licensing laws for tradesman, unlicensed doesnt cut it, union or not, unlicensed, generally aprentice or labor,
Are you native American?
I thought this was a country of immigrants?
I am personally not dissing immigrants. I am dissing a system that allows employers to import people from countries where they make like 1/20th the average wage of the US and then forcing american workers to compete with them. You wanted to know why people are pissed. This is why they are pissed. You people keep saying, "work hard," "get a job," blah blah blah. But the point is that you can do EXACTLY THAT and just get screwed over because there is no solid system of worker protection in this country.
But it was always poor immigrants who came to this country. Were your ancestors rich when they came here? Was their wages equal to that of an American? It's the same cycle that is continuing.
What are you talking about? Do you know anything about the horrific history of worker conditions in this country prior to the creation of unions? You are proving my point - workers came here and were locked in buildings that burned down, they had children working in mines, workers being killed by the thousands building bridges. And they were paid nothing. This wasn't a good thing. Those people fought - were beaten, threatened, even killed - establishing unions and fighting for worker rights. And over the past 20-30 years, the wealthy minority has made a concerted effort to turn back the clock to the bad old days.
I mean, if you enjoy this system, good for you. Sit back and watch your country become a third world backwater. Yippie.
Was USA a third world backwater before the unions? I thought it is extremely rich and people bent over backwards to come here.
Good point. I feel so sorry for your family's situation, Laughinwillow, and that certainly does show the dark side of hiring immigrants. However, it's true that we are all descendents of these "immigrants" and yet Americans are now turning their back on anyone who tries to enter this country at this point in history. My great grandparents were all born here, but on both sides of my family, my great-great grandparents are from Europe. So isn't it hypocritical of me to say that immigrants today can't work here? I don't know, but It's really something I struggle with. Anyways, I do recall that when we had our house built, the painters and drywall guys were from Mexico and could not speak English. Everyone else was American, and every electrician, plumber, etc we've called in the last 15 years has always been American. There are places left in this country where there are jobs that are still American. And it seems that there might still be a need for some. We've called 3 roofers in the last month for a leak, and not one has returned our call???
It was. Just not one with completely open borders and a second economy full of people who don't pay taxes, don't get licenses, insurance, etc.
I didn't know we have a completely open border these days or that every immigrant is a tax cheat and law breaker.
The things I learn on this board.
Look, no one is disputing - at least not me - that immigrants are willing to accept lower wages. Compete with them. If you can do better work, there will be someone paying for it. IF not, then either you don;t do better work or no one wants to buy that better work. You have to deal with it instead of saying that all immigrants are scumbags.
Yes, in fact we do have what amounts to completely open borders and the majority who come in other than through legal channels aren't paying taxes and doing everything else that legal immigrants and others do.
I don't compete with them. I'm not directly in the businesses where they compete. But I am close enough that I see what's going on. I never said that "all immigrants are scumbags." In fact, most are good people just trying to do what they can. But it's not a level playing field when one guy is trying to do things right and by the book and another is paying people under the table and taking advvantage of their situation. I could very easily hire illegals too but I won't do it.
You have no idea how hard it is to come to the USA. You are sorely out of touch. The vast majority of immigrants in this country come through legal channels. They get the very best jobs, white collar, and knowledge workers. Most of them come here as students and then convert. Others come in on skilled, professional visas. They are super nice to work with. They work super hard and have no attitude and are sharp as a tack. They are also willing to work for less. That's why they are taking the good jobs from Americans.
We're not talking about people coming on student or E visas with respect to trades which was the subject of this thread. It's the 1/3 of total immigrants or about 10 million "undocumented" persons which have a very large and disproportional impact in these areas and beyond that at the lower end.
See, the problem is that electricians are dime a dozen as you are now seeing. So, whoever told you that being an electrician will forever pay enough to have a house and a vacation per year was lying to you. In the rest of the world electricians make nothing as there are way too many people who can do that job.
I suspect that you really don't know what you are talking about. Electricians in the third world don't make anything because almost EVERYONE makes nothing, and because no one can afford to pay for their services, not because there are too many electricians in, say, Bosnia. And again, these are skilled positions that are NECESSARY to society - this isn't working in McDonalds or walmart (though i'm not dissing people who do). Is your argument seriously that it is fine for employers to ship in foreign workers from third world countries in order to avoid paying american wages? What do you think american workers should do? Accept $3 an hour for highly-skilled work?
Secondly, I feel like you didn't pay attention to anything I said. When electricians were represented by unions, employers were not able to import foreign workers who they could then underpay. And this is happening now not just in the skilled trades, but in IT, non-unionized nursing, elder care, on and on and on. What jobs, prey tell, do you believe are "safe" from this type of race to the bottom?
Electrician is a skilled trade. Pay no attention to those stuck in their one note responses to every problem we express concern about.
Another function that the unions for the skilled building trades used to perform was apprenticeship programs. I know the ironworkers had that and the brick masons also.
I wouldn't want to drive across a bridge where all the steel was laid by some kid working his first day ever in that trade. Nor would I want to sleep in a house where all the wiring was done by that same kid.
It is all relative. In Bosnia, if you compare the wages of an electrician tot he wages of say a corporate manager, the electrician gets paid next to nothing. Here in the USA, a while back electricians used to make almost the same and sometimes more. That's not sustainable. That's my point. It is not highly skilled labor. It is semi skilled. Highly skilled are neurosurgeons. Even they are getting replaced by immigrant doctors who do the work just as well, have far less expectations, and are willing to take lower wages.
I think American workers have to accept the reality that wages need to drop. There is no way one country can continue to be 5% of the world's population where consuming 30% of resources. I think a minimum wage of $1-2/hour will bring back a lot of the factory jobs.
I don't think any job is safe. Everyone needs to be nimble and continually upskilling themselves. Say no to TV or vegging out. Go to night colleges forever and learn new things. Stay ahead of the economy. Avidly follow the economic trends and keep yourself prepared. Luck favors the prepared.
hmm, you keep bringing up Bosnia. Are you from there? Obviously, you don't understand the problem because you're not living it.
I don't think that people are completely blaming immigrants but it is an issue. You said "I think American workers have to accept the reality that wages need to drop" but what you don't realize is that that would further contribute to our economic downfall. The rich would continue to get richer and the poor would continue to get poorer. The margin between the top 1% and the 99% would continue to widen and it wouldn't fix anything. What exactly do you think lower wages accomplish? Do you think the immigrants will leave? Do you think if America turns into a third world country the jobs will come back?
And by the way, just because other countries have this idea that all Americans are lazy and spend all their time vegging out on a couch doesn't necessarily mean they do. A good percentage of those skilled workers that you claim should accept lower wages already work 16 hour days, 7 days a week. And that's not necessarily just tradesmen either.
If there are others willing to do the same work for less, what do you propose we do? Force the others to not accept lower wages? If a local store tries to generate more business by holding a sale, do you go to the store and tell it to stop doing such things as that hurts sales of the other stores in the neighborhood? That's called price collusion. When the oil producing cartels do it Americans complain profusely. It is also illegal. Yet that is precisely what unions do. They rig wages by threatening people who would rather work for lower wages and get an advantage in the job market.
How are you supposed to eat or live on 1-2 an hour, vladimir? I still haven't heard your theory on that.
If husband and wife both work say 60 hours a week, then you get about $12k/year, which is the Federal poverty level. You get some subsidized housing (likely communal apartments) and foodstamps. Health care needs to be free. Some EITC needs to kick in as well. That should do the trick.
Your system relies on people working themselves to death and relying on a welfare state to survive. That sounds sustainable. So instead of building a non-corrupt economic system, we need to just live in a state of slavery so that the few at the top can live like royalty.
No one has to live like a slave. This is the USA. Anyone can get to the top. There is no hereditary advantage there. You have to study hard, stop watching TV, stop goofing around with your friends, go to good colleges, get a business degree, and even you can become a banker. It is your choice. If on the other hand you want to become a tradesman then yes you will suffer. But no one put a gun to your head and forced you to become one. You can be a banker or a corporate manager too.
Of course there are hereditary advantages. You've never heard of the Bushes, the Kennedys, the Johnsons, the Heinzes, the Rothschilds? You don't think that certain families inherit wealth? But taking what you say at face value, are you suggesting that everyone in the US become bankers so that they can have a decent lifestyle, and anyone else that cannot become a banker doesn't deserve to live in their own home and eat three meals a day? (I will ignore for the moment that there are many skilled classes of workers like scientists, engineers, and technicians of all types whose education and intellectual talents vastly outstrip that of bankers, that have taken massive reductions in pay and quality of life, all the while the income of the top 0.05% is skyrocketing.) I think everyone here gets the idea of personal responsibility, but here the question is one of social justice. Everyone knows they have to play hard to win a game of soccer, but in our economy, the wealthy team has the referees working in their favor, every time. This is not about skilled vs. unskilled workers. This is about fabulously wealthy people rigging the system in their favor and sucking up all the wealth. You cite over and over the consumption of the US. Have you ever thought that a significant portion of that consumption isn't coming from the middle class, of which I am certain you are a part, but from the incredibly wealthy that simply live off of interest in their bank accounts? I don't see why I who have a Ph.D. and make medicine, should gladly accept ever decreasing pay compared to gamblers and schmoozers that use politics to rig the game in their favor. Your ideas of hard work and striving for success are good, but I see that they come from a position that preserving the status quo is more important than eliminating corruption from the government. I agree that Americans need to lower their energy and resource consumption. I don't see that we need to live in third world conditions to preserve the incredible wealth of a privileged few. I have the feeling that you are in the 20% of Americans that think they are in the top 1% of earners. I don't think you'd be sticking to your position if your job were outsourced and you had to face the realities of this market.
$1-$2 an hour. Ok. Ok. Right. We're done here. You're ridiculous, seriously.
And here's a newsflash for you. American workers don't have to "accept that wages need to drop." Wages HAVE DROPPED. But since you actually believe (Jesus H. Christ) that people should work for $1 an hour in the wealthiest nation to ever exist, we really have nothing else to discuss. It's just too ludicrous.
So, wages have already dropped and now in the absence of jobs will likely drop further, and you are upset with me because I am just telling you want you are already seeing. How is that ludicrous?
It is ludicrous to suggest that the wealthiest nation on the planet pay its workers $1 an hour. It is ludicrous to essentially say that rather than reinstitute a unionized workforce - which created the largest middle class in the world - we should simply just shrug and become a third world country. I mean, really - way to reach for the stars, seriously.
I agree willow. I'm not sure what he's trying to achieve with these threads...
No, the problem is not that electricians (at least ones that I would actually trust as far as I can throw to work on my house) are a dime a dozen. The problem is that for every skilled craftsman like LaughingWillow's husband there are a hundred unskilled temps who can carry a wire and mostly avoid killing themselves or burning down clients' houses, and who will work for peanuts because it's better than where they came from. The difference doesn't mean much to a greedy contractor, but it means a hell of a lot to people who put in the time and effort to get good at the trade, and it means a hell of a lot to people like me who want their wiring done right.
But then lots of houses should be burning down regularly. Are you seeing that? I am not.
Probably does happen from time to time; there are house fires on a regular basis in this country and a whole bunch of them are due to faulty wiring or something equivalent. Besides, Fung Wah and Lucky Star are quite unsafe overall. Buses have hit trees, hit ditches, hit each other once, had the wheels fall off in the middle of the road, been torched in Chinatown turf wars, etc. And yet every day the two companies run fifteen trips a day and on any given day all the buses may arrive reasonably intact. I still don't take Fung Wah if I can get a seat on Greyhound or Bolt.
Oh my! There has been house fires on a regular basis in this country because of faulty wiring? I was told that the high skilled American electricians never screwed things up and it is a recent phenomena because of those pesky immigrants who are willing to work for less.
No? I don't know about any burning down but there are increasing incidences of scaffolds collapsing and of cranes falling (which NEVER used to happen) and it's due to a combination of inexperienced workers & contractors who want to cut other corners to speed the jobs along.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4139502&page=1#.TrYK9TCF-s0
I didn't see where it said that the workers were inexperienced. The American contractors cutting corners is mentioned though.
You missed it then.
"The rise in construction fatalities can be explained by a deadly mix of untrained immigrant workers, lax attention to safety regulations and profit-minded contractors who cut corners in all areas from labor to materials."
You can hit CTRL-F if you don't see it readily.
Thank you. So we need to train these workers. If they work for less that benefits all of us as costs go down.
Still, houses are not still burning down.
Cool, you are learning. Now, how do we train these workers? should we use gov't pell grants? DO we raise their minimum wage so they can train themselves? Or, do we just keep on arguing in circle and ignore the problems? I prefer the second one. What do you say?
I prefer pell grants. My experience in the USA tells me that you can't trust people here with money, even new immigrants pick up that attitude fast. While in China parents would devote 100% of their energy to getting the best education for their kids, parents in the USA would laugh at that and instead go on vacations with borrowed money. So if the people do not have the good of themselves in mind, and Govt has to. I would be totally OK with all kinds of subsidies, but in kind and not in cash. I would take out the mortageg tax interest deduction and instead give people small 1-2 bedroom communal apartments to live in. I would not give them cash but instead make schools free and compulsory. Things like that. You can't trust Americans. They wouldn't do the right thing as the Chinese would.
That's reasonable, and a better idea than lowering minimum wage. I believe we are in a transitional phase, and I just don't feel all the sacrifices should fall on the backs of one class or the other. Struggling to survive, in my opinion, builds character. But struggling your whole life and never getting a break builds animosity. And never struggling builds a sense of entitlement. Example: Prescot Bush was a decent states man; he was a Progressive Republican. that is an oxymoronic phrase today His son, Bush SR, put the needs of his nation above the needs of his party, and JR used the nation as his personal piggy bank.
You also need lower wages so that people get jobs. You need both. A strong social safety net and salaries commensurate with world markets, but higher taxes on the rich for subsidies to the poor.
lack of future
You have already exposed yourself as a fanboi of BRIC, so you will support anything you believe will undermine the USA and advance the interests of BRIC. While I admire you for not being a traitor to the Russian Federation, like my fellow countrymen are traitors to the USA, it is clear that you do not have our interest at heart, not by a long shot, so why do you bother positing?
p.s. My ancestors came from the Soviet Union, lived in China, then moved to the USA. I am proud that the Russian Federation and China will be key Global players. There are people of Western European ancestry, on. If the rich get away with ruining our lives, in the USA, I hope Russia and China screw the Americans responsible for ruining the USA to the wall. Never give them a break and let them die in the gutter, because that is what they would do to their own people. Show no mercy to the American rich, as they would show no mercy to you. Destroy them all, as they would destroy their own Nation! S! MJ
Let's not get personal. I have no personal interest in BRIC. I have a business interest. If those countries do well I do well. I used to invest in the USA but for the past 15 years it has been one bubble after another. So I refuse to invest here till the bubbles get sorted out. Americans are way too greedy and will always leverage up to the hilt and chase a good life. They will take mortgages they can't afford to pay just to get the McMansions. They will take out home equity to go on vacation. The BRIC nations are hard working and save a lot of money, even though they make far less than Americans. Till Americans get their lifestyle under control and start to lower it drastically and start to save money, I don't see how I can invest here. But it is nothing personal. I live here and I have done well here. But I won't invest here. Too much entitlement, too much greed, too little discipline.
I understand that it is not personal for you and it is a matter of business. There is too much criminality and corruption, in the USA. It is not right that you have to worry about losing your money, due to the irresponsible actions of I-Bankers and Executives. For me, it is personal, as I grew up around the rich and ultra rich, although I am as educated as they are, they begrudge me an opportunity, to get ahead in life. This includes the step daughter of US Senator Lautenberg. The very family members of my Government begrudge me a shot in life, though they know me personally. I would have done the opposite and helped. Hell, one of my uncles died, in a war fighting for that scum bag Government Lautenberg is a U.S. Senator in. My relatives can die for this Government, but Lautenberg is too important to help out an MBA in need of a start? His step daughter, knowing me since third grade, should have helped me and honored her relationship network with me.
Fortunately, China emphasizes relationship networks and highly educated and politically connected Chinese shun anyone unwilling to help members, within their relationship network. This is a better order for business and for society. The elders advance the interests of the highly educated members of society, within their network,showing an interest in advancing the Government and the economy of China. In exchange, the highly educated members fror the political elite and inner circle swear fidelity to the elder members of the relationship network. This is a great system and the way of the future. One of the advantages of a dominant China will be an end to the back stabbing nonsense, I had to put up with, from the members of my relationship network. That is clearly not your problem. I wish that you maximize your wealth and that you do not suffer for the corruption of the US economic market. Do well and be well Vlad! S! MJ
You wanted to be in the old boys club and game the system, eh? So much for an even playing field.
I would have helped to ensure that the teachers, the skilled workers, the firemen, the police and so many other middle class Americans had a bright future. Do not kid yourself, all Nations, including Russia, India, China, and Brazil will have an old boys club, as you call it, I certainly am entitled, as much as anyone in our Government, to be a member, since I am a member of the same circles, yet they did not want the future to be the USA, they did not want to include me.
Still, in time, like the Emperor of Manchukuo, they will learn that the Chinese are short on patience for spoilt elitists, unwilling to work with the members of their relationship network, willing to advance the Chinese Government and the National interests of China. When China is a Super Power, the Chinese Communist Party will not long suffer relationships that are not based on mutual commitment to the advancement of established Chinese relationship networks and the best economic interests of China. The American rich will screw over the wrong elders of the Chinese Communist Party and they will be cut off from the Chinese relationship networks, for their ignorance and their unproductive anti- social behavior.
Bottom line you are sore because you thought your network would give you a leg up instead of you having to prove yourself.
It is not that I cannot prove myself, given the opportunity. You need an opportunity to prove yourself; this is true of anyone. Remember, even the famed Russian Objectivist, Ayn Rand, needed a favor to get her career going. I would have to do the hard work, once given the opportunity, to succeed and I would be obligated to help my community, in turn, as a matter of reciprocity. I was not asking for a hand out, mind you, but rather to have the same consideration afforded other members of my relationship network, in exchange for my fidelity and service to the same.
I hope you do not mind this way of doing things, since you are investing in BRIC and the dominant players in that arrangement, the Chinese, tend to think very much like me. They don't tend to consider proving oneself, outside of the relationship network or to the exclusion of the relationship network, as the chief hallmark of success, but rather the ability of men to thrive within the order of their relationship network, from generation to generation, where the elders ensure the best interests of their young members, in exchange for their young swearing fidelity and deference to the elders or other senior members of the relationship network. This is seen as great and healthful, to the individual and to China. This is encouraged from the earliest years of childhood and is reinforced through the education system and other means of socializtion, within China.
I can say that I'm pretty frustrated that in order to consolidate my private loans I have to accept a 13% interest rate just to get my monthly loan payments down from 850 (including federal loans). I'm a new graduate at an entry level position and I don't make a lot of money. If I get laid off I am SOL because in 2005 the government made it so students can't go bankrupt to escape debt. That's why I am pissed. Public schools are far more expensive than they used to be. I'm wondering if I should have gone to school at all.
I do believe that education should be made free at all levels. Anyway, this is what I would tell you. Just an undergraduate degree will not be enough. You have to get a professional graduate degree. Law, finance, MBA, accounting, something like that. Don't go for touchy feely arts bullshit. While you are working now, plan not to work for more than 3 years. In 3 years you must go back to get a graduate degree and you need to get it from a top school in a field that pays a lot. Avoid engineering. While it is still OK, those jobs will all be gone. Best of luck.
Sad to hear about engineering, the market for law degrees is also flooded. I went into an "artsy" degree but it's more along the technological aspect of art. I can use video software and I know how to use 3D rendering programs animation and the adobe suite. So I have some skills that many people don't have. I really don't want to accrue anymore debt if I can help it, a lot of people I know went for a masters in art, but it just seems like such a BIG gamble. I've grown to have a phobia of debt now. I was really frightened to take out a 3,000$ car loan. :/
Vladimir: I want you to set an example for what you're telling the rest of the country to do. I want you to show us what a big hero you are, and quit your good job. Now, starting with no skills, get work at $1-2 an hour and survive. Write a book on it. Make millions! Ready? Go! Until you can do that, all your bullshit talk about how there really isn't a problem and this is what's always gone on and everyone just needs to take less per hour for the good of the planet or work a thousand times harder for what they get is just a bunch of worthless noise.
There are two ways. The first is what I chose. I got a good job because I got the skills to get the good job. Hence I earn a shitload. The second is what people are unwilling to choose. That is to goof off and get very little skills beyond what is needed for a shitty job. Shitty jobs will pay less. All I am saying is that you don;t do it for the good of the globe, you do it to get a job instead of being on unemployment forever. How does it feel to be on the dole when you know for a fact there are jobs that migrant farm workers used to do, but you consider yourself too good to do, even though you have no skills.
Things are hard. It used to be that people worked hard to be middle class and were proud of it, but that just isn't enough anymore. Ultimately, the middle class is tired of carrying the entire country on it's back and barely getting by while the 1% live lavishly and line the pockets of the politicians that are supposed to be representing our best interest so that they can keep it that way. What's more, to be attacked by that 1% on the news, saying that those in poverty should pay more taxes because MOST of them own refrigerators. Or that the cause isn't important enough to protest over.
Trickle down economics only works if those on the top are allowing it to.
If the rich were less rich would the middle class then be happier even if their own situation didn't improve? Is this purely a matter of jealousy?
I think you're missing the point. Most corporations take advantage of legal loop holes that are available to them to the point that not only do they not pay taxes, the government pays them with the tax money that the middle class did pay. If you don't believe me, look up GE and their tax information (FYI: they got a 3.2 billion dollar tax benefit). On top of that, some of these corporations received a bail out from the government, again paid out with tax payer money that they never paid into in the first place and they use it to take vacations. I can't speak for anyone else, but these are the things that piss me off. Are you honestly going to try to say that any of that is fair? As I said, the middle class is carrying the entire country on its back. I'm not saying that I think the rich should be less rich, they have their own success. I don't even think that the tax rate should be raised on the upper class or on corporations, but what I do think is that those tax loop holes should be closed.
If those tax loop holes are closed will you be satisfied and quit the OWS movement?
I think so. I can't speak for anyone else but I definitely think that it will make a huge difference. I think it will improve the economy because there will be more revenue within the government. The people would no longer be able to blame the top 1% for problems within the economy since they would be contributing their share. The upper class and corporations definitely won't be happy about it but 2/3 of them don't actually pay any taxes as it is.
I do think tax loopholes should be closed. I am totally with you there. What gets my goat is the blatant call for wage manipulation. That's the core thing I do not like about the OWS movement. The other thing that I don't like is the call to limit campaign contributions. I want to be free to use my money any way I want. So, as long as I can earn as much as I want and use my money any way I want, I am OK. I am happy to pay higher taxes which go to build infrastructure, especially educational infrastructure, so that everyone else can also become educated and get better jobs. But I refuse to accept a situation where people expect to do low skilled work and still live the American dream. That's quite perverse. That's like giving A+ in grade just for showing up. That kills initiative and takes away people's drives to better themselves.
Come on Vlad..
http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/
It is what happens when elections have been bought by monied corporations, and government no longer represents the people. It is what happens when elected officials have been manipulated and bribed by the 1%.
Americans are awaking from the American dream to find the nightmare of reality that they have been disenfranchised, neglected, and left to rot like the roadkill of corporations.
Here's the declaration which goes over most of what people are fighting for.
www.the99declaration.org
The rent is too damn high.
You got that right, where is Jimmy McMillan, he ought to be there leading the anti-landowner greed brigade. Cause the rent was, is and probably will continue to be tooooo damn high!
I love that guy. lol I would vote for him, just for the entertainment value. Face it. How much worse could he be?
He's got a wesbite (hisname.org). I know, I know, OWS doesn't want to talk politics, but he knows a lot about real esate and how it works here in NY, so it is probably worth a look; can I say that much?
Surely OWS doesn't mind McMillan talk. That guy is hilarious. It's kind of like talking about Carlin for president. If he weren't dead. bummer.
Pizzazz Picasso and the Killumination - Killuminati ft. Gaje http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLUpGGmku8g
Pizzazz Picasso and the Killumination - Change (Killumination version) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SMrnx6nkRw
Pizzazz Picasso and the Killumination - The inevitable incredible truth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wg1bH6-1YY
Pizzazz Picasso and the Killumination - The all seeing eye http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgKS4i-u0OM
http://www.reverbnation.com/Killumination
http://www.soundcloud.com/Killumination
Donate!!!
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That the Dolphins haven't won a fuckin game yet
Excellent question. Their love of money appears to be overtaking them. And by "them" I actually don't mean the so-called 1%.
Obama.
Amazing how Obama is telling other countries how to handle their financial situations. WTH?????
Visit LetsGetTheFactsStraight.com
Pro-Bank propaganda. Check it out if you want a laugh.
Feels pretty good to me. What is going on? Are people losing jobs or something ?