Forum Post: Indefinite detention without a trial ! / What do all you previous posters think now?/ new comments page
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 2, 2011, 10:25 p.m. EST by ropeknot
(359)
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Indefinite detention without a trial !
?????
This isn't anything new. Just an expansion of the so-called patriot act. What surprises me is that so few thought it was a bad idea 10 years ago. Seems to me that people are willing to accept evil when they don't think it will apply to them. However, we've seen it over and over again throughout history. People need to pay attention and speak out.
So if the police knock on my door and within a few seconds i can't make it to the door they bust in and with no warrant let alone a reason ( defying all constitutional laws ) take me into custody for what I think ; If I'm not mistaken; you're implying that I surrender after all the lives that have been lost protecting our constitution ? ! ? !
As the Japanese did for their honor and heart ; I will go to my grave fighting for our constitution that has always been, from the start, with my life as so many before me have done ; for me ; and you !!!!!!
Indefinitely.
How long is that?
A long time brother.
What in the devil does this refer to? Anyone able to tell me?
It refers to the National Defense Authorization Act S. 1867 Bill which allows the military to indefinitely detain American citizens without charging them with a crime. Nasty stuff. It passed senate, but still has to go through congress and the president. Obama threatened to veto. I recommend everybody to speak up and make sure that Obama does just that.
Thanks for the update. Damn right we better put the pressure on so that that damned dictatorial piece of sheet doesn't get signed!
It's probably only coincidental, but a day or two ago, Mayor Bloomberg referred to the NYPD as his own personal army, and bragged on it being the seventh largest army in the world. Creepy.
I think OWS has peeled back a few layers of the onion for everyone to see.
No wonder I've been crying so much. :-)
Yeah, that's going around.
check your congress web site for all new laws and amendments for an unbiased truth, and don't believe anyone else ! you can be arrested now for what you think if our government says you might be a threat !
We are intering very dangerous territory here.
Yah ! No shit !
Are we at war as the rest of the world is?
Or are we at an impasse with the O.W.S. peaceful no results area ?
I don't know - all I know is that nonviolence is imperative unless things move in such an aggressive direction on the part of the military as to hand us no choice in the matter whatsoever than to defend ourselves. I pray God that leveler heads prevail, and that reform is understood to be in the longrun an inevitable necessity. I really think, in light of this legislation, that the commentor from Serbia on my post, "It's Official, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld destroyed the world trade center," has a real point.
If they suspend the Constitution in ways like this, it is a very ominous sign. I think OWS should outreach to as many other disaffected groups as possible, and plan a convergence on Washington D.C. If the seriousness of the situation can be brought home to people, we may be able to get millions. But I think we must not become rattled and over react, and see how the situation develops. If anyone actually is dragged away in the middle of the night, than yes, at least metaphorically it is war, and we must drag every freedom loving person, kicking and screaming if necessary, to a convergence on Washington - even if they have to hop a freight train, walk, or swim to get there! In the mean tim I think we should go on going what we are doing, without any sign of giving in to such threats.
http://www.eurasiareview.com/03122011-us-senate-approves-indefinite-detention-and-torture-of-americans/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/02/white-house-veto-indefinite-detention_n_1126399.html
http://watchdog.org/12168/w-va-s-manchin-supports-indefinite-detention-for-u-s-citizens-accused-of-terrorism/
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/01/congress_endorsing_military_detention_a_new_aumf/singleton/
http://www.eurasiareview.com/02122011-deranged-us-senate-votes-for-military-detention-of-all-terror-suspects-and-permanent-guantanamo-oped/
http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/defense-bill-includes-authorization-for-indefinite/
yup !
good job metapolitik ! Note worthy info !
Thanks !
Wow metapolitik, you are really on top of things! So much for the audacity of hope.
ditto !
What's your thoughts on our right to trial ?
The suspension of the right to speedy trial by a jury of one's peers is one of the pillars of free-society going back to the Magna Carta; it's suspension, if it does occurr, would mean that we were then officially be living under a dictatorship.
"if it does occurr"
It has already happened !
Check for yourself @ our senate decisions
And yup ! It is now a dictatorship that will remain until you and I and all else make it not so !
Talk is O./W.S. !
Action is our plans to stop the talk and act !
Actions speak louder than words !!
The pen is mightier than the sword ;, is not true, as has been seen around the world !
What say you people ???
Yes, you are right. But I am really concerned that none of us take the bait and see that as a call to violent action unless we are forced to do so under no uncertain terms by the invasion of our homes and other such violent action. I think one of their main strategies right along has been to provoke us to violence so that they could use that as the very excuse to crack down on us. We must tread with a light step and await events. That is my thinking, anyway. In the mean time we must draw the greatest number possible to our side - because we do not yet represent a majority, capable of winning either in the political arena (and here I don't mean political parties, but political in the larger sense) or in the event of actual conflict. You see therefore the necessity of treading lightly:)
You got it right !
If it doesn't affect me why should I care !
"I think one of their main strategies right along has been to provoke us to violence so that they could use that as the very excuse to crack down on us. We must tread with a light step and await events."
this is why we must attack now !
They want us to go to jail, but they don't expect us to rise up !!!
What will they do if we rise up ?
The more they crack down , the stronger we should revolt , not just protest !!!
G et your guns out people of a free society !
You seem to have misinterpreted me. The last thing to do is get our guns out! That would be an absolute last resort to active violent repression of a vast scale, and furthermore would, I think, represent our very lowest possibility of achieving anything positive at all!
I don't know how others see this post, but I see all the questions and answers posted all over the place in no specific order. Does anyone else see it this way ?
O.K. !
So we are ( after your long pause with no other answers ) at war !
"the rights that have been given to you"
Our own people , ( the government ) just took or constitutional rights away for the right to trial !
Am I missing something ???
Thank the Democrat and Republican parties. The Senate said yes by a whopping 93-7 margin.
and now we don't have a say and just sit back and take this dictatorial way of a new constitution?!??
I will not go easily!
Yup !
So it's up to the people who will sacrifice their lives; as those whom have done in the past for our freedoms as per our constitution and our way of life !?!!!
P.S. Are we at war ? ( civil )
"Can't we all just get along?"
http://occupywallst.org/forum/approaching-a-metapolitical-discourse/
http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse
yeh , if we just don't pay attention to what is happening, blindly letting others dictate your life and disregard our rights, and then we can all just get along as the automatons we are .
That's no solution.
I was thinking more along the lines of Deep Democratic Dialogue and consensus building.
Hello again ! I just decided to go to the N.Y.C.G.A. 'cause this site is for opinions and theirs is for suggestions and solutions !
I think they're run by beginners ! The N.Y.C.G.A. that is !
Check it out !
It's like "this" site, only now in anarchy! but: a vote to vote on all posts possible whereas all opinions are tabulated and votes up or down are totaled for a consensus , unlike this site ,they make a rule or decision with not a small amount of people , rather "all" peoples vote on even the smallest query !
This would, if ratified , be the answer to all this complicated confusion and no answer forum !
There's your democracy and a way to the consensus !!!
A link for the kids:
http://www.nycga.net/
Can't do it. If you think you are in this kind of situation(you won't/aren't) get a lawyer. Unless you are one of these idiots who sit around a park after the 9 millionth warning to leave, then you may be dumb enough to let them do this to you, along with being pepper sprayed-which after watching these pepper spray vids, I can tell you, what the cops used on these people is nothing compared to the real deal stuff
Excuse me ;
Indefinite detention without a trial !
Means no lawyers !
You have a right to a speedy trial. If you give up that right, what ever happens happens. It's on you. This is why people sit in parks and go to concerts put on by the rich to complain about the rich. No personal reponsiblity. And no, we are not at war. Not even close. I promise you, if civil war broke out again, most of these sheep would be cut down on Day 1.
It's not on me !
I'm supposedly innocent until proven guilty !
And is this day 1
"It's not on me"-this is the major problem I have with the Occupy people as well as those who sue McD's because they didn't understand coffee is hot. No personal responsibility. If YOU don't understand the rights that have been given to you, YOU will be the one to get screwed in the end. Just as the police say, ignorance is no excuse. Exercise your rights, and see what happens. If you find yourself in such a situation (highly unlikely in USA) contact family/loved ones and get help from the outside. Trust me the lawyers will be clawing at their door to "help you"(by which, of course I mean padding their own coffers and yours) This is why we have a Constitution and Bill of Rights. If you choose to stay somewhere after repeatingly being told to leave, you are guilty. If your walking down the street to work,and get arrested because you're on the same side of the street of a mob resisting the police, then, unfortunatly, you may get lumped in, but trust me, nobody-including the police- wants an extra body in jail for nothing when real criminals are out there causing real trouble Have you actually read anything at all about what happens when civil war breaks out?? Like what our country went through?? Or what is going on in Libya ?? Thousands died on both lines. Guns and lines were drawn. Blood was shed. And then a time of confusion begat order. This is not a civil war, it is not day 1.
Yes I see your point , but sorry ,
It is day 1
The guns have been here for as long as we have existed !
The original U.S.A. is making a come back and blood ( as per our past ) will flow ! Including mine !!!
No one wants it , but the senate just took our rite to trial away !
I'll be arrested for what I've just said because of our new law.
but guess what !
I'd rather die than let my constitutional rites that our people have died for: be changed to make "us" the enemy in an indefinite jail duration situation without even the basic war rules applying; such as the Geneva convention;!
We all must rise up with our pitch forks and hoes, such as the Ukraine just did recently , and take our government back :
: OR DIE TRYING!
O.W.S. has to be more than vocal now !
We have to take back our constitutional rights !
Are you a functioning terrorist?? Any terrorist friends?? I'm not talking guns drawn as "I'mma write a letter!!", I mean, go into the cabinet, grab the AR, and start killing your enemies. By saying you need to be more than vocal will not get your point across, it will get you killed. This law of yours is also under veto. You will not be arrested for writing this. You will be arrested for sitting in a park when the law, mayors, etc tell you to leave. come at your local LEO with a pitchfork and see how far you get
P.S.
What is the LEO ?
Terrorists take from us , not give us good ideas , so No I'm not a terrorist!
I'm giving you a good idea;
Many have died already for our constitution !
This law has not been approved ? Then my Question would be :
How did it ever get to the voting status in our senate ?
Morally , you have a flaw ! Constitutionally ; you have a flaw !
I have many flaws that I accept, but on this, I say(not beg) to differ. And as odd as it sounds, yes terrorist do give us good ideas on occasion. Look at World War 2. If it wasn't for a few Nazi scientists, we wouldn't be where we are today. I said it was on the floor to get vetoed. And it should. It's unconstitutional in every way. After 9/11, rights have been taken from citizens left and right. I wasn't trying to say you were a terrorist, BTW. But if you have friends who are(same as gang members) you may be found guilty by association, by which you should contact a proper lawyer and get it all fixed up. Many have died for our constitution, and that was in a different time. Now we have to find a way to figure out how we are going to get out of a mess that they put us in. Sadly I don't see it happening in this lifetime. And LEO is shorthand for Law Enforcement Officer. Aka the police
To die for our constitution is not in the past , but what we all must do every day if needed!
I'll put my life on the line any day of the week for our right to a trial because our constitution requires this for all !!
your statement : "Many have died for our constitution, and that was in a different time."
The same time is here with the same thoughts,whereas there are us that will to this day defend the constitution with our lives !
The original thread was ; Indefinite detention without a trial !!!
This is not legal as per the constitution !
You're right it's not legal. That's what I also said. You have a right to a speedy trail. When I made the statement about the different time, I was referring to when we were still in our infancy as a country. We haven't had to defend our rights like that in a very long time. As long as people like you are around, that is good. We need that kind of mentality, but because of the growing paranoia (not on a social scale, but government built), we will lose rights. While the blind believe the old line of "if you're not doing anything, there's nothing to be afraid of", so they'll vote their rights away left and right to keep the "bad men away". It people like this that are dooming our citizens. Not only are they harming us as a people, but they are making us weaker as a country. Not just from outside influence but also inside our own borders. Humans have this nasty way of rebelling after things get but so bad. Could this whole movement be the thing that sends it over the edge?? Who knows, but when it does come down, and I sincerely believe it's going to happen within our lifetime. There's going to be quite a show on both sides.