Forum Post: Income inequality = lack of opportunity = YOUR ISSUE
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 16, 2011, 10:57 a.m. EST by Heironymous
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Income inequality actually hinders economic growth. From the NY Times today:
¶The 400 wealthiest Americans have a greater combined net worth than the bottom 150 million Americans.
¶The top 1 percent of Americans possess more wealth than the entire bottom 90 percent.
¶In the Bush expansion from 2002 to 2007, 65 percent of economic gains went to the richest 1 percent.
In 1981, the average salary in the securities industry in New York City was twice the average in other private sector jobs. In 2010, it was 5.5 times as much. (the average is now $361,330)
Of the 100 highest-paid chief executives in the United States in 2010, 25 took home more pay than their company paid in federal corporate income taxes, according to the Institute for Policy Studies
In his important new book, “The Darwin Economy,” Robert H. Frank of Cornell University cites a study showing that among 65 industrial nations, the more unequal ones experience slower growth on average. Likewise, individual countries grow more rapidly in periods when incomes are more equal, and slow down when incomes are skewed.
Most Americans know this inherently, it stares them in the face every day. The goal of these protests should be to remind them of this reality every day.
Andrew Jersey City, NJ
Is greed really good?
Doctor discovers cure and prevention of AIDS. Sells discovery for $5,000,000,000,000. Same doctor discovers cure and prevention of heart disease. Sells discovery for another $5,000,000,000,000. Same doctor discovers cure and prevention of Alzheimer. Sells discovery for another $1,000,000,000,000. Breast cancer. Brain cancer. Skin cancer. Bone cancer. Colon cancer. Pancreatic cancer. Cervical cancer. Ovarian cancer. Testicular cancer. Banks cover all related investments by the health care industry. Nobody stops to consider that the lower 99 percent combined could never afford such expensive cures. The richest one percent agree to purchase the bulk of material assets along with millions of unsold homes for ten percent of market value. After a two year spike in revenue, the health care industry tanks. The vast majority have gone bankrupt in a desperate attempt to cover those incredibly expensive cures. The profits made in the first two years were nowhere near enough to cover the $20,000,000,000,000 doctor payoff. The largest debts in world history go unpaid. All major banks fail miserably. Followed by every major industry. Unemployment spikes to 90 percent in all of the G20. The global economy tanks. Chaos breaks out worldwide. Meanwhile, the richest man in the world by far, buys an island and hires a small army to protect his $20,000,000,000,000 fortune. 5000 jobs are created. More as the richest one percent worldwide hire additional security. Unemployment drops to 80 percent across the developed world. Widespread chaos remains. Entire cities burn to the ground. The masses finally converge on the richest one percent in every corner of the world. As the bodies pile up, disease breaks out worldwide. When the dust settles, and the bodies rot away, only a few hundred million remain worldwide. Those few hundred million survivors must find a way to get along and rebuild. Hopefully, with a more reliable and ethical system of economics.
The answer is hell no. Greed kills..
Allen Greenspan had a rare moment of clarity and truth in the spring of '05'.
"The income gap between the rich and the rest of the US population has become so wide and is growing so fast that it may eventually destabilize democratic capitalism itself." -Allen Greenspan testifying before congress in the spring of '05'. Published in the Christian Science Monitor June '05'.
If you find this hard to believe even after everything that has transpired in the last 6 years, then play a game of Monopoly. Watch what happens when one player owns half the board. It's the beginning of the end.
Albert Einstein and Mariner Eccles made similar comments when referring to the first Great Depression. The wealth was horribly concentrated then too. FDR's 'New Deal' and WW II gradually redistributed the lion's share back to the majority over a period of about 30 years. It's been concentrating all over again thanks to 'trickle down' economics and an entire culture obsessed with getting rich. Here we are all over again. Only this time, there will be no recovery. Its over. God damn it I hate greed. It's finally compromised the prosperity of an entire world. Not one of us will live to see a true recovery. Not this time. It's over.
Yes well, it's in the nature of Superpowers to become complacent. We are having our national ambitions downsized, and in the end it will be the best thing for us. Democracy is always in a state of flux, it advances and retreats. Right now we have tons of work to do as a nation, but we're still in a state of denial about where we stand in the world. We still have plenty of advantages as a nation, and we'll get past this crisis too. What concerns me is that we have seemed to lose our sense of reason as a nation. Tea Party quacks are forcing us to spend time debating whether we should even have a government rather than how to approach all our issues rationally.
Heres another inequality, we pay the average elementary school teacher 35-45k and some donkey who can catch a football gets paid millions!
http://www.change.org/petitions/pay-congress-what-middle-class-americans-earn
There is absolutely no justification for the wealth of Americans in the top 1%. It is simply exploitation of the labor productivity of the workers who are powerless in an economy as bad as this one.
I agree with this statement. Labor is in the back seat right now, but you know...if the deal keeps getting worse and worse for you then you have nothing to lose. That's the point where a lot of Americans are getting to now. They've lost a higher paying job and have taken a lower paying one, if they can get it. They've lost their investments, their house is underwater or foreclosed, etc etc. When enough people are affected then things start to really change
NY times misses the point. You get the disparity in income because people are out of work because of failed investments across the board. Once you recover from failed investments, job recovery begins and then wages increase.
It cyclical, it's human nature to over reach. Hence why there are bubbles and then busts.
Didn't you read the Greenspan quote down there? Here it is again:
Allen Greenspan had a rare moment of clarity and truth in the spring of '05'. "The income gap between the rich and the rest of the US population has become so wide and is growing so fast that it may eventually destabilize democratic capitalism itself." -Allen Greenspan testifying before congress in the spring of '05'. Published in the Christian Science Monitor June '05'. If you find this hard to believe even after everything that has transpired in the last 6 years, then play a game of Monopoly. Watch what happens when one player owns half the board. It's the beginning of the end. Albert Einstein and Mariner Eccles made similar comments when referring to the first Great Depression. The wealth was horribly concentrated then too. FDR's 'New Deal' and WW II gradually redistributed the lion's share back to the majority over a period of about 30 years. It's been concentrating all over again thanks to 'trickle down' economics and an entire culture obsessed with getting rich. Here we are all over again. Only this time, there will be no recovery. Its over. God damn it I hate greed. It's finally compromised the prosperity of an entire world. Not one of us will live to see a true recovery. Not this time. It's over.
I think we all agree that history is unfortunately repeating itself. It's taken us since 1980 (the year Reagan got elected) to reach this point of concentration...which by the way has happened in pretty much every industrialized economy since then. It will take us quite while to unwind this. I think many are just waking up to that fact now and saying "You mean this isn't just another recession?" It took about four years after the great depression started before serious financial reforms started to take place. Then the government started cutting spending to bring down the deficit and the economy tanked again. Looks like we're right on schedule. I hate to say it, but perhaps we should be looking at Japan as an example of where we are headed if we don't correct course drastically. They've been in recession since 1989!
Bullcrap. Prove your point in a game of Monopoly. You can't because there is no way to recover from a heavy concentration of wealth except to unconcentrate it.
A this point everyone is afraid to invest and to spend due to lack of demand in the economy. This is where government must step in to stimulate the economy, even by providing jobs if need be. The private sector won't do it because it doesn't make economic sense to hire and spend right now.
We have plenty of tax dollars coming in to jump start this economy. We just need to stop spending it on fruitless wars, a hugely bloated monstrous defense department budget, and a lot of other poor priorities. There is no lack of money in this country, just a lack of sound judgement.
Exactly, but many more people will come to your side when you are proactive (for “new” Business & Government solutions), instead of reactive (against “old” Business & Government solutions), which is why what we most immediately need is a comprehensive “new” strategy that implements all our various socioeconomic demands at the same time, regardless of party, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves; that is, using a Focused Direct Democracy organized according to our current Occupations & Generations. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategically Weighted Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
because we need 100,000 “support clicks” at AmericansElect.org to support a Presidential Candidate -- such as any given political opportunist you'd like to draft -- in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Most importantly, remember, as cited in the first link, that as Bank Owner-Voters in your 1 of 48 "new" Business Investment Groups (or "new" Congressional Committees) you become the "new" Congress replacing the "old" Congress according to your current Occupation & Generation, called a Focused Direct Democracy.
Therefore, any Candidate (or Leader) therein, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet; it's the STRATEGY – the sequence of steps – that the people organize themselves under, in Military Internet Formation of their Individual Purchasing & Group Investment Power, that's important. In this, sequence is key.
Why? Because there are Natural Social Laws – in mathematical sequence – that are just like Natural Physical Laws, such as the Law of Gravity. You must follow those Natural Social Laws or the result will be Injustice, War, etc.
The FIRST step in Natural Social Law is to CONTROL the Banks as Bank Owner-Voters. If you do not, you will inevitably be UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED by the Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government who have a Legitimate Profit Motive, just like you, to do so.
Consequently, you have no choice but to become Candidates (or Leaders) yourselves as Bank Owner-Voters according to your current Occupation & Generation.
So please JOIN the 2nd link so we can make our support clicks at AmericansElect.org when called for, at exactly the right time, by an e-mail from that group, in support of the above the bank-focused platform. If so, then you will see and feel how your goals can be accomplished within the above strategy as a “new” Candidate (or Leader) of your current Occupation & Generation.
Bail Out Banks, what about Bailling Out People? with $ 700 Billion Bailout to US Financial Institution divided by number of 2.5 Millions Homes foreclosed, Banks Got $ 280, 000 per House and people became Homeless: Continue the Movement untill THEY get message. Syed
I think we should start our own BANK Where the unions,Buffetts,Gates, And working class PAYDAY people can put their money...As we take the CASH out of the system the wall street people will be left holding the worthless paper they created.....Y OCCU...PI.........WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND
Good question! The IMF for one: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2011/09/berg.htm. Check out the footnotes too, links to other studies.
This new book is great: “The Darwin Economy,” Robert H. Frank of Cornell University. "Studied 65 industrial nations, the more unequal ones experience slower growth on average. Likewise, individual countries grow more rapidly in periods when incomes are more equal, and slow down when incomes are skewed."
Well said, and thank you for this post.
Obvious should be obvious... but its not. Sigh.
I am amazed at how many people I know who are well educated like to boil it down to "Well, what do you expect from Washington?" or "Ït's all just a Ponzi scheme anyway!". Uhm ok...and does that mean you should sit back and not do anything about it? Even something small like inform yourself? It's laziness more than anything else. Americans are incredibly lazy whiny babies when it comes to their own democracy, and then they wonder "Hey, who stole my lunch??". It's not the Chinese who are eating your lunch baby, it's other Americans.
I agree. Stop blaming the Chinese for our mistakes.
Open your eyes to the inequality in America and take a stance. Do what humans have done throughout history when there have been great divides in income distribution. Rebel. Revolt. Study world history and you'll see that OWS is following a long tradition.
Thank you. It amazes me how much of out society is apathetic on these issues.
BillyJack one basic problem is our own American mentality. We have a national ethos of "winners and losers". Americans love the idea of being able to get rich, but that laissez-faire system also creates a lot of losers. I don't advocate ditching capitalism, or free markets at all...but what we do need to do is put back the rational checks and balances that used to exist before Ronald Reagan and his ilk got elected. Successive Democratic congressmen (and Clinton too) were all co-opted into the disastrous deregulatory policies of Greenspan, Rubin, and other wunderkinds.
I feel very much the way you do. I'm all for modest capitalism. A reasonable scale of income opportunity for all. I'll tell you what though. I've had it with the entire concept of 'getting rich'. It makes me sick.
Fellow protestors: It is very important that we address the obscene concentration of wealth without regard for name, face, industry, ect. We must also disregard what the rich claim to 'give back'. The bottom line is all that matters.
Consider this: There are 10 hungry children and 12 sandwiches. If one child takes a second sandwich to satisfy his larger than average appetite, the other 9 children will still get a sandwich each with one to spare. If two children each take a second sandwich, the equation still works for all. But if one or more children take 3 or 4 or 5 sandwiches for themselves, hunger is the direct result. If one child (let's call her Oprah just for the sake of discussion) decides to take 5 sandwiches for herself and 'gives back' one for the less fortunate, then at least one other child must go without. Unless of course, the other children each share one bite. But if Oprah takes 8 sandwiches and 'gives back' 3, then at least two other children will go hungry. And so on and so on. Bottom line: There must be some reasonable limit. Unfortunately, there isn't with our current system. We also have not taken any real steps as a society to prevent our wealth from being horribly concentrated. Charity just doesn't cut it when the rich refuse to settle for anything. We don't need anymore millionaire 'humanitarians'. We need fewer millionaires. It does not matter how much they 'give back'. Afterall, all of them do. Every corporation, every politician, and every single celebrity. It doesn't matter. It will never work this way. It does not matter how much they 'give back'. It matters how much they keep. Please keep this vital equation in mind. Otherwise, there
problem with your analogy is you assume the 12 sandwiches are there. Where do the 12 sandwiches come from? If 1 of the children makes 6 sandwiches, 6 of the children each makes one sandwich, and the remaining 3 just wanted to play and didn't make any sandwiches, is the 1 child who sacrificed his play time to make the 6 sandwiches required to give away his sandwiches to those who didn't work? If you keep giving the children who didn't work sandwiches, then are you telling them that they don't need to do anything to get fed? Then after a while the hardworking kid will say "screw this, why am I working so hard when you get fed anyways" and he only makes enough for himself. Now the 3 kids who didnt make sandwiches are hungry, but there aren't enough sandwiches to go around.
My analogy represents the total wealth and resources available at any given time. The buying power of the bottom majority will always be relative to the buying power of the top minority. Always without exception. I'm all for collective productivity. Everyone needs to contribute in some way. Otherwise, society begins to crumble. We can agree on that.
I agree with much of what you say. After four years of recession many Americans feel like the American Dream is headed down the tubes. We're not used to having to give anything up, short or long term. I don't think people quite realize how much work we have to do as a nation to get back on track. The influence of money needs to be purged from our electoral system completely for the actual needs of the people to be heard. That in itself is a huge job. Then add to that reforming the priorities of government spending and getting back to a more equitable tax burden. Oh, and how about the fact that we've let our industrial base wither down to nothing, so it's going to be very hard to get jobs going in the short term. Still, we're a very resourceful nation and we've overcome much worse predicaments in the past.
Its all a sham. Nothing but tax deductible PR crap. Make the people love you. Take their money. Convince them that you're making the world a better place. Take more of their money. Be nothing but a greedy sell-out hypocrite pig with a fake commercial personality and a fake cause to pose for. Concentrate even more of the world's wealth and resources and lead the ignorant masses to believe that you're doing the opposite. I can't stop them and I can't punish them but I can tell you that their bogus promises to make the world a better place will not be kept. Any 'humanitarian' progress made in one area will always be lost in another with a net loss for the majority. There will be more poverty. More starvation. More conflict. Meanwhile the rich will keep getting richer and richer and richer. They will always dumb us down and divert our attention from one area to another. Just like they have been for at least 25 years. Ethipoia (still bad), Darfur (even worse), Malawi (still bad). As they concentrate more and more of the world's wealth and resources, they will cause more inflation, more poverty, more starvation, and more conflict on a global scale. In order to divert our attention, they will adopt another cause to pose for. and another. and another. and another. Each time, putting their fake humanitarian stamp on it and jet-setting the world in the name of 'humanity'. Actually charging their private jet rides and 5 star hotel accomodations to their own bogus 'foundations'. Pleading with us to buy more of their products and support more of their 'good will'. Taking more of our money and throwing a few crumbs back to the poor along the way. With another photo-op and worldwide publicity for each and every crumb. Like I said, its all a sham. Nothing but a giant marketing gimmick and a cheap excuse to keep getting richer and richer and richer. These people are actually causing the same problems they pretend to care about. It is the greatest scam of all time. I will not forgive them for it. I will expose as many as possible for the hypocrite pigs that they are. Thats my cause. Its the ugly truth. Someone has to tell it.
We have been mislead by Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, and nearly every other public figure. Economic growth, job creation, and actual prosperity are not necessarily a package deal. In fact, the first two are horribly misunderstood. Economic growth/loss (GDP) is little more than a measure of wealth changing hands. A transfer of currency from one party to another. The rate at which it is traded. This was up until mid '07' however, has never been a measure of actual prosperity. Neither has job creation. The phrase itself has been thrown around so often, and in such a generic political manner, that it has come to mean nothing. Of course, we need to have certain things done for the benefit of society as a whole. We need farmers, builders, manufacturers, transporters, teachers, cops, firefighters, soldiers, mechanics, sanitation workers, doctors, managers, and visionaries. Their work is vital. I'll even go out on a limb and say that we need politicians, attorneys, bankers, investors, and entertainers. In order to keep them productive, we must provide reasonable incentives. We need to compensate each by a fair measure for their actual contributions to society. We need to provide a reasonable scale of income opportunity for every independent adult, every provider, and share responsibility for those who have a legitimate need for aid. In order to achieve and sustain this, we must also address the cost of living and the distribution of wealth. Here, we have failed miserably. The majority have already lost their home equity, their financial security, and their relative buying power. The middle class have actually lost much of their ability to make ends meet, re-pay loans, pay taxes, and support their own economy. The lower class have gone nearly bankrupt. In all, its a multi-trillion dollar loss taken over about 30 years. Millions are under the impression that we need to create more jobs simply to provide more opportunity. as if that would solve the problem. It won't. Not by a longshot. Jobs don't necessarily create wealth. In fact, they almost never do. For the mostpart, they only transfer wealth from one party to another. A gain here. A loss there. Appreciation in one community. Depreciation in another. In order to create net wealth, you must harvest a new resource or make more efficient use of one. Either way you must have a reliable and ethical system in place to distribute that newly created wealth in order to benefit society as a whole and prevent a lagging downside. The 'free market' just doesn't cut it. Its a farce. Many of the jobs created are nothing but filler. The promises empty. Sure, unemployment reached an all-time low under Bush. GDP reached an all-time high. But those are both shallow and misleading indicators. In order to gauge actual prosperity, you must consider the economy in human terms. As of '08' the average American was working more hours than the previous generation with far less equity to show for it. Consumer debt, forclosure, and bankruptcy were also at all-time highs. As of '08', every major American city was riddled with depressed communities, neglected neighborhoods, failing infrastructures, lost revenue, and gang activity. All of this has coincided with massive economic growth and job production. Meanwhile, the rich have been getting richer and richer and richer even after taxes. Our nation's wealth has been concentrated. Again, this represents a multi-trillion dollar loss taken by the majority. Its an absolute deal breaker. Bottom line: With or without economic growth or job production, you must have a system in place to prevent too much wealth from being concentrated at the top. Unfortunately, we don't. Our economy has become nothing but a giant game of Monopoly. The richest one percent already own nearly 1/2 of all United States wealth. More than double their share before Reagan took office. Still, they want more. They absolutely will not stop. Now, our society as a whole is in serious jeapordy. Greed kills.
JohnnyGuy, I don;t thin the great majority of Americans believe that rich people are evil. What they do believe is that the rich need to give back to the society that made them rich in the first place. Historically we are at extremely low tax rates. In the 50's, 60's, and 70's we were a more truly prosperous nation which still produced things and tax rates were much higher.
The wealth inequality is the extreme one. IT is hard to tell if someone high income is really doing well or just having a lucky year after many bad years.
Where I want to see taxes focused is on assets over $5 Million. Those folks have made out like bandits since Reagan-and they are the top 1%
40% of Americans have no assets-and that number is growing.