Forum Post: In Defense of Corporations and Profits
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 17, 2011, 1:55 p.m. EST by TonyLanni
(291)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I'm talking basic principles here, in an non-corrupt system. Communism under Marxist teachings basically says that profits gained by anyone come from taking something from another. If I make anything, someone has to lose. This is actually incorrect. Companies make profits only because the other side gains. This sounds counterintuitive, but it isn't. If the other side didn't gain in the transaction, they wouldn't enter into it, and the company wouldn't make a profit.
Take a simple example. Suppose you decide to see a movie, and it costs $10. You are always thinking about whether the movie was worth it. If it was a really good movie and entertained you, you think it was worth the $10. What does that mean? Money is an arbitrary value indicator. You are thinking that the enjoyment you got from seeing the movie was better than other things you could have done with the money. So you think you came out ahead in the transaction. The movie people made money off of you and you got enjoyment off of them. If enough people feel as you did, they make more and more, cover their costs and make a profit. If the movie stinks, you feel like you got ripped off and didn't come out ahead in the deal. That concept spreads, people don't see the movie, and the studio can't cover their costs and lose money. So profit only results when BOTH sides benefit from a transaction. You get more in benefit than you paid and so does the movie studio. Thus profit is a measure of everyone's overall benefit.
This very concept is what separates two systems and resulting cultures. It can be expressed in mathematics. Marx wrote the supply equations. They basically say that I give up something and you gain from that. The Austrian school of economists wrote the demand equations. They appear to say the opposite, I gain at your expense. You put them together, and the losses cancel out and we both gain. Communists essentially only have the first equation. Capitalists have both. And wars have literally been fought over this difference in mathematical equations.
There is an exception to this. Wall street functions differently. It is essentially a gambling system where people place bets. I bet you that this company will do well. You can bet against me. One of us wins, one loses. This does provide necessary capital and money flow to keep corporations and teh economy going. The problems occur when the betting isn't fair, the money flow is disrupted, and power starts consolidating amongst those who have access to the money.
This consolidation of power and corruption to the system IS the problem. The government's job is to regulate the overall system and act as a check and balance. The government is clearly failing in that regard. The corporations, industry groups, unions (which are essentially worker based corporations), and bankers are controlling the politicians and interfering with the regulatory function the government should be providing. They are allowing consolidation of wealth and preventing access to capital. This is where reform efforts need to be focused.
Right now there are lots of relatively simple fixes that can have dramatic results.
1) Make the tax system fair and predictable. Today, it is neither.
2) Take corruption out of the system. The government has lost its independence and is no longer a regulator, checks and balances have broken down.
3) Put the needed regulations that make sense and control the system back in place.
4) Deal with those areas of economics that the government should be controlling-- shared resources (the environmnet, for example) and extreme resources (healthcare is basically worthless if you don't need it, infinitely valuable if you do).
I'm not anti-corporate, only anti-corporate-PERSONHOOD. Companies should be free to innovate and provide competitive services and products. They do NOT get to use that money and influence to "game" the system itself for their benefit. This is so damn simple, why are people not getting this? Radically Free Democracy and Radically Free Markets are complementary. As long as money is out of politics, and corporations are treated as business entities, not people, we'll have a system by the people, for the people.
it depends in what you value. Yourself, or all. In a free market lossers are a garuntee, its not possible for everyone to win. Wealth should be even, what most don't realise is that if all wealth where equal, you on a personal note would be in good shape.
We act like we want to help others because its the right thing to do. So why not make everyone equally wealthy, and all live good lives.
If you want a peaceful world, all must get along. If poor people exist, all will not get along. If businesses are allowed to grow, they can obtain a state where the can easily make it almost impossible for other people to come up with there business. Then you end up passing wealth down, good payed for education, kids taking over the company and wealth, making envestments.
All free market bassed systems eventually lead back to 1% of the population ending up with most of the wealth, do we really want to have to go threough this every 50-100 years?
You are caught in a zero-sum game paradigm, which is how our current economy works - the more one person wins, the more another looses. Most of this is because of artificial scarcity created by the dominant players. This is enabled because of centrally controlled economic mechanisms and a fiat currency system that creates money as debt.
We can live in a post-scarcity economy where everyone is prospering, while simultaneously the earth is restored ecologically. To see how this is possible, I recommend a couple of things:
1) The video "Money is Debt". One of those amazing explanations of why our entire capitalist system is broken (i.e. it's one big Ponzi Scheme). The link is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3sKwwAaCU
One of the most important videos you'll ever see. Warning: You'll be even more angry at the banks than you are now.
2) Peer-to-Peer, Open, and Transparent Exchange systems that are impossible to "rig". I highly recommend you watch the following (short) videos to see the huge paradigm busting potential of the post-scarcity era:
http://metacurrency.org/ (the main page)
http://metacurrency.org/vision (read the page, then watch the video at the bottom).
http://metacurrency.org/content/open-rules (Open rules - we decide what rules we want to play with economically). Brilliant stuff.
JohnB, I am having trouble with this whole personhood debate. I mean, corporations clearly don't get the full benefit of personhood-- they can't vote, etc. So there is already a separate system. What effect would changing the definition further have? they would still be able to contribute money, unless there was real campaign finance reform. As I understand corporate personhood, it mainly exists so companies can be help liable for actions, enter into contracts, have laws and regulations enforced against them, etc. What is wrong with this? Looking for what I am missing here, explained in simple terms like I tried to do with economics and profit above.
this is part #2 of my previous post
Has anyone who is more anti-corporation read this? What did you think? I'd really like to know if it makes sense, if you have a counter argument you think is relevant, or if it at least gave you something to think about.
I think you mean well. But you might come across as a bit disingenous because of the unfortunate fact that, over the last years, political talking points have wholly debased the meaning of capitalism. People talk about capitalism as if it's some magical doctrine that makes unbounded and unregulated naked greed work out for the best of society. That's obviously bullshit. The first thing an unregulated free market does is produce monopolies. And boom, no more free market.
Most people like regulated free market economy, with nice social programs to ensure equality of opportunity, and laws to prevent monopolies and oligopolies, unfair competition and other such things. It's a pretty good system. But that isn't what has been called "capitalism" for some time now.
i think there is a clear misconception of what is politics and what is economics. the economic systems we base our systems on are capitalistic. regulated free markets that prevents monopolies, etc. are capitalistic. socialist political ideas are not incompatible with capitalist economic ones. no one is advocating for an unregulated system. actually, i am advocating for the opposite, a regulated system where the government does its job in the modern capitalist economy. i think there are clearly misunderstanding here that I am trying to dispell. i think the anti-corporation, the system is unsustainable because it requires constant growth in profits, doctrine that i hear some OWS people expressing is what i am addressing. i am not sure what you mean by me being disingenuos.
First : I agree with you. We're on the same side. I understand capitalism the way you do, which is properly.
I don't think you are disingenuous. I think that because of the fucked up political climate, you might sound so to some people. The sad thing is that people HAVE been equating "true" capitalism with deregulation. Capitalism has become a weird economico-ideological aggregate mixing glorification of greed for it's own sake, systematic hatred of all government "interference", validation of the giant corporation and all in the name of american freedom. And yes, as you pointed out, this is all made out to be somehow incompatible with social programs. Now I know, and you know, that doesn't make any sense.
That's the game the Republicans and other so called neo-liberals have been playing these last few years, and one of the best things that could happen to the political climate these days, I mean, besides #OWS, is some actual conservatives realizing that the rebranding of their side of the political spectrum as the crazy house isn't doing anyone any favors.
I feel it is much more productive to talk about our economic system as regulated free market. It does away with the false capitalist/socialist dichotomy and it doesn't carry all the pointless baggage.
i agree with you. I like the term regulated free market. But of course socialism is the term the right likes to throw, and capitalism is the term the left is starting to attack. but when you boil it all down, as you have, i think there is more agreement than either side realizes. thanks for the comments!
There really is. That's the shame. That's the game. I do personally blame the right more than the left for this, my sensibilities go that way, but the fact is both sides now stand for two big, ill-defined, amorphous globs of undifferentiated political, religious, social, moral, economic and cultural values and systems, Republican and Democrat, that resemble more identities than political platforms. I do think Obama tried to get away from that. Too little, too late, but still.
The dialog between left and right should be constructive. It should not be about BEING a republican or a democrat. It should not be about bullshit issues like abortion and gay rights, or with exactly what mix of openness, firmness and subtle reprobation one talks about muslims. I know this is sensitive stuff to some folk, but anyone who pretends they are really pressing policy issues in the current times is a con-artist trying to divert attention.
guess the title wasn't catchy enough? :(
makes sense.
It's actually very simple what we need to do- the problem isn't supposed fallacies of the philosophy of capitalism, the problem lies with good old-fashioned corruption and incompetence
amen to that! I felt the need to post this because of lots of comments I've seen saying how capitalism is the problem, how corporations and profits are evil and unsustainable, etc. glad this made sense!
Kind of takes me back to "the guilded age" of American history; In the late 1800's the American people were incensed by what they saw as corporate greed and the 'failure' of capitalism. However, it was simply government corruption that was the cause of their problems. Interesting how history repeats itself
Agreed again. :) But I will say there are certainly areas that don't work in a pure capitalist system, like the environmnet and healthcare. With a non-corrupt government and a fair system, that would be properly addressed, though.
A purely capitalistic system would take environmental systems into account. In a pure capitalistic system, all economic actors are able to make fair trade with every other actor. For instance, if a factory wanted to pollute, in a perfect system, it would have to get agreements from all the other economic actors allowing it to pollute. If there wasn't agreement, then the factory couldn't pollute. That isn't the case today because the government isnt doing its job of enforcing fair-market contracts. Right now, a factory can go and pollute all it wants because there is no way for all the other economic actors to enforce a fair contract between them.
We are seeing this currently with natural gas producers in places like Pennsylvania. Right now, those producers can extract natural gas from lands they own, without agreement from anyone esle. However, this isn't a fair contract because pollution from the extraction process pollutes waterways in the state. Obviously, residents of Pennsylvania dont want their water polluted, that isnt part of a fair contract with them and the gas companies. Unfortunately, they cant do anything about it because the state of Pennsylvania isnt carrying out its function of enforcing fair contracts.
What would help tremendously is if the government grew some balls and actually enforced fair contracts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QrDLwSgg24
koyaanisqatsi
here is a discussion of the mathematical equations mentioned above: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_problem