Forum Post: Important posts are getting lost on this chaotic board. -- Isn't there some way ALL the posts here could be replicated on a forum where we can organise and expand discussion on the most worthy and urgent topics?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 12, 2011, 11:52 p.m. EST by reddy2
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This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Important posts are getting lost on this chaotic board. -- Isn't there some way ALL the posts here could be replicated on a forum where we can organise and expand discussion on the most worthy and urgent topics?
So much relevant information has already been contributed here but the way this forum is designed is not the best way to nurture and advance ideas.
i don't think you are reading me. there are only two possibilities. Either Jart is that incompetent, which seems frankly ludicrous, or she wants to maintain this chaotic atmosphere on purpose. Don't tell me. I have tried time and time again to talk them out of it. I have begged and pleaded, argued and explained- all to no avail- and since day one. So if you think you can do better, go right ahead, but i think what it comes down to is the decision has been made to allow this to be a trollhatten chaos center, and probably because Jart serves George Soros, or some oligarch- and does not actually have the interests of the occupy in mind.
While that may seem harsh, it is was Occam's razor demands.
Seriously, how hard could it be in a month and a half to generate sub forums?
Every other admin I have ever had could do stuff like that in under 48 hours and the better ones in under 45 minutes.
The only solid truth we have here is that your not saying anything new- its been said hundreds of times before,... and Jart made a promise regarding new sub forums which she never followed through on, and, has consistently ignored requests for putting up a wiki here until i was forced to have one put up some place else.
Given those facts, any reasonable person must assume that this site is a giant spew mess by design and intention, the only question that comes after that then is, WHY? The answer is obvious. The oligarchs more than anything fear an ORGANIZED social movement- but astro turfing a chaotic and self defeating social movement is ideal to them for their purposes.
You're still at it, eh? Anybody who doesn't do exactly what you think that they should do must be part of a vast conspiracy working against you? Have you seen the work that JART has been doing? Have you seen how frequently she has been updating the code for the site, scrambling to keep up with its popularity? It's an open-source project and you could help if you want to see specific changes, instead of trying to spread this ridiculous conspiracy theory. Assuming that JART is part of the conspiracy against you simply because she's not doing exactly what you think that she should be doing just makes you look like a complete idiot.
so your argument is that shes actually that incompetent.
You couldn't even set up an off-the-shelf wiki by yourself without begging somebody else to do it for you, so if she's incompetent then what does that make you? You are not entitled to have an opinion if you're not capable of helping her at all. How can you leave the job to her because it's too hard for you, and then call her incompetent? You really need to look at the commit history on the GitHub project to see how hard she's been working on this site for you, for free. This is how you thank her? By including her in your crackpot conspiracy theories and calling her incompetent? What an asshole!
What that makes me is not a techie. Since i never claimed to be a techie and never tried to have a website in the first place, You can't get me for being incompetent because i did stick to what i am competent at which is systems theory and game theory and providing strategic advice. I am not only entitled to an a opinion, (which i don't have in any case since i avoid getting entangled in subjective things as much as possible,) I am signnificantly more entitled to such than just about anybody i can think of for a large variety of reasons not the least of which is this isn't my first rodeo.
The help i can give her is to advise her to put up a wiki and 1001 sub forums. If she does not take my help, then it have to question why that happens. It is entirely sane of me to do that and entirely sensible of me to use occams razor to determine what the most likely explanations for the behavior i see are.
There are a whole host of jobs i am doing because its apparently too hard for anybody else including the deeper logistics of how to have a revolution instead of just a temper tantrum.
You really need to get clued, Whatever work she may have been doing it was never as critical as 1001 sub forums, and she can't claim ignorance on that because i posted it dozens of times.
Yes. This is how i thank her. For thousands of troll threads that could have been avoided. For dozens of retreads of threads which nobody can find. For a giant stinking stew of troll shit instead of a meaningful social dialog. For scattering the energy of mass intelligence so badly that ows is STILL entroping instead of organizing and thus slowly devolving and losing energy to market or convince the 98 percent. YES, thats how i "Thank" her. But this is not about giving due credit where due credit is due. This is about the objective and neccessary absolute NEEDS of a revolution; versus the apparent direct intention to keep and maintain a a chaotic and noisy and nearly useless forum instead of meaningful order.
The ONLY question that matters is why do we not have 1001 sub forums?
Don't moronically defend the indefensible. Millions of hours of peoples time and energy has been diffused and wasted as it poured into this black hole pit of a trollhatten. All of those people hoping to have a sane and civil and evolutionary conversation never even FIND EACH OTHER as a direct result.
If you have a problem with understanding why that is a serious, absolutely neutral and objective concern, then you are the one whos not screwed their head on straight.
IF "JART" had any sense or integrity, she would have worked diligently to create those things. Instead, what i have as evidence of her handiwork is that Ron Lawl is intentionally mis spelled by the system. One perfect example.
We needed a Ron Lawl sub forum with a long winded disclaimer at the top of it a month ago. Lacking that organization, a giant propaganda war of Ron Lawl dupes has gone on and her ONLY answer to that is patent reverse trolling?
Priorities are so out of order that shes shooting herself and all of us in the ass by reverse trolling Ron Lawl supporters. How is that supposed to help us?
Whats so hard about a page long Ron Lawl disclaimer followed by a link to the Ron Lawl forum, and splicing threads out of the main forum over to that?
Again. I shouldn't have to say all of this; you people are wasting my time with self evident shit which is self evident to ANYONE whos not an anarchist and who is over the age of 20 years old. Great job. Now you have alienated and pissed off the Ron Lawl trolls, and so now they have declared a holy ronpaul holywar against the ronpaul censorship. Way to discipline the enemy. Maybe she should have studied the adversity paradox and THEN maybe some REAL metaprocess and diplomacy before turning this entire thing into a gradeschool tit for tat temper tantrum spat between far right trolls, anarchists, and ronpaullians.
Seriously? WTF? i can't believe i am having this conversation.
Thank you, JART for putting up the black hole pit forum which everyone is ON but inside of which NOBODY can meaningfully COMMUNICATE.
Thanks for promising us months ago that you would put up sub forums and then NOT delivering. Thanks for NOT putting up a wiki so that i had to go off site to do that. Thanks for ignoring the rest of us, and running an oligarchy HERE just like the oligarchy we are all protesting. And thanks in particular for giving a bunch of evil bastard fucktards admin privileges in chat. Thats like shit icing on the cake.
what made you write all this crap....you really think a lot of yourself...whew
Normally I like to pick on you, but that was really well written and sprinkled with valid points. But I don't think that it advances anybody for you to be so rude about it. If you look here, you'll see that this is a pretty active project, held up almost entirely by one person. And she's committing updates every day, working to make this site better. It isn't easy, as proven by the fact that you can't do it. Just because she's not doing exactly what you think that she should be doing doesn't make her incompetent. You don't know the full range of problems that she's trying to solve. You just know about a narrow slice of issues that concern you, specifically. Just because you're not in charge and your priorities are not law doesn't make anybody else incompetent. Mean people suck.
i don't see that it advances anything to be nice about it, but i tried that for a time. Its long past time to be adamant and up front and hard hitting about it, thats not rude, its simply critical. its rude to yell "fire" with no fire not only because of the no fire bu because of the yelling. if there is on the other hand a fire, i'm not being rude, I'm being blunt and blunter because somebody is being stupid. Its not a question of doing exactly what >>I<< want, its a question of doing what is systemically neccessary for the movement to survive. the CORE problem and FATAL error right now is lack of organization and THIS site COULD have been an organizational center instead of a giant cess pool of chaos.
These are not MY priorities; they are the systemic problems. And it is not just me that suffers , it is the viability long term of the movement.
Yes, it sucks that i have to be loud and fine, even mean about it. yes it sucks that i tried to be nice about it. the suckage there is like, lets just say 10 suckages points. with a nice stack of just say 100 thousand people who visited this site half of whom won't return due to the chaos, each experiencing something along the lines of 100 suckage points, that small little red blip compares pretty favorably to that karma account of 100,000 suckage points. And while it may otherwise seem like i am being an prick, the truth is i AM supporting her the ONLY way a person in my position can. By kicking her AZZ until she does what has to be done or proves shes not actually on our side.
You know it does suck, and it double sucks, because i hate to be a prick to anybody esp when its probably true that they are putting forth a gung ho effort from their pov. But this does not change the true nature of the emergency nor does it change the simple facts of the outcome.
Most importantly, any sane person MUST ask themselves the question. WHY? Why can't occupy movement get its head out of its ass and get organized? occupy movement is growing at a reduced exponential rate because its actually alienating the 98 percent for being a giant screaming banshee of troll piss. When does this hit home? Don't tell me i am being a jerk. I know i am being a jerk, and i am more sorry for that than you might imagine. But put those sub forums up, or the long term game will have to be to escort the sheeple off the dumbass site.
in disciplined love;
sincerely...
i don't see that it advances anything to be nice about it, but i tried that for a time. Its long past time to be adamant and up front and hard hitting about it, thats not rude, its simply critical. its rude to yell "fire" with no fire not only because of the no fire bu because of the yelling. if there is on the other hand a fire, i'm not being rude, I'm being blunt and blunter because somebody is being stupid. Its not a question of doing exactly what >>I<< want, its a question of doing what is systemically neccessary for the movement to survive. the CORE problem and FATAL error right now is lack of organization and THIS site COULD have been an organizational center instead of a giant cess pool of chaos.
These are not MY priorities; they are the systemic problems. And it is not just me that suffers , it is the viability long term of the movement.
Yes, it sucks that i have to be loud and fine, even mean about it. yes it sucks that i tried to be nice about it. the suckage there is like, lets just say 10 suckages points. with a nice stack of just say 100 thousand people who visited this site half of whom won't return due to the chaos, each experiencing something along the lines of 100 suckage points, that small little red blip compares pretty favorably to that karma account of 100,000 suckage points. And while it may otherwise seem like i am being an prick, the truth is i AM supporting her the ONLY way a person in my position can. By kicking her AZZ until she does what has to be done or proves shes not actually on our side.
You know it does suck, and it double sucks, because i hate to be a prick to anybody esp when its probably true that they are putting forth a gung ho effort from their pov. But this does not change the true nature of the emergency nor does it change the simple facts of the outcome.
Most importantly, any sane person MUST ask themselves the question. WHY? Why can't occupy movement get its head out of its ass and get organized? occupy movement is growing at a reduced exponential rate because its actually alienating the 98 percent for being a giant screaming banshee of troll piss. When does this hit home? Don't tell me i am being a jerk. I know i am being a jerk, and i am more sorry for that than you might imagine. But put those sub forums up, or the long term game will have to be to escort the sheeple off the dumbass site.
in disciplined love;
sincerely...
You're part of the Occupy movement too, and by acting so rudely, you have lowered the priority on the to-do item that you're asking somebody else to do for you (because you can't) for free. You're insulting a volunteer, for not doing what you think they should be doing. You're appointing yourself as her boss (in a leaderless movement) and then you're leading in a very counter-productive and destructive way. You have added a negative emotional charge to what should be a collaborative project where people work together in a professional manner to get things accomplished. By attacking the one person who is working hard to make the site better on a personal level, you have virtually guaranteed that this site will not include "a wiki and 1001 sub forums". She would be losing face if she did invest the time in building that, after all of your insults. And after all of your rudeness, she isn't going to be motivated to do anything that you want her to do. You have made it far less likely that this site will ever have the things that you're asking for, through your poor social skills. You are, in other words, incompetent as the project manager that you have appointed yourself to be. You're incompetent as a project manager and you're completely incompetent as a web developer. You really need to either learn more about Django and Git and fork the project and start helping, or you need to shut the fuck up.
No, I am making critical assessments, needed to move this thing forward or show why it isn't. I'm insulting a "Volunteer" whos got their own agenda which may or may not be whats best for the movement. From what i have heard "anarchism" i'd say, definitely not. We have some fine anarchism all right and thats the problem; when real meaningful order is needed only it will do. standing in the way of that makes your moves count for the opposite team.
I'm not appointing my self as anybodies boss. i am telling the factual strategic truth. If you can't handle that or anybody can't thats their problem.
The "ONE" person? Who? still has epic failed to do whats absolutely required here and THUS the "occupy movement" is FAILING. More than any one person, we can look at this one person as the CORE reason why meaningful organization HAS FAILED.
Each individual occupy is FAILING and LEARNING THE HARD WAY because there is no organized inter occupy communication network.
We have THIS site to thank for failing to get its head out of its ass for that.
I am totally competent as the project manager, and it is my sole position to have the knowledge of the big picture to be able to meaningfully judge. You are going to assess my performance? Based on what knowledge of systems or game theory? Based on what plan you have to bring about a revolution instead of a dead end long winded protest?
I AM helping, and failure to LISTEN to me carefully IS THE PROBLEM, just as is the same with failure to LISTEN TO EVERYONE ELSE.
so no. YOU are the one who needs to shut the F up if anyone does.
Back in ADULT land, I am THE ONLY PERSON whos done the right action process, started a wiki, or begun organizing on that, and due to this sites gross negligence and arrogance regarding the general public, all this site can do is waste everyones time and make me beg for people to leave the trollhatten and rejoin civil society by coming to the wiki.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/WorkShops_in_SB_on_Sunday In fact, i am doing all of the real work alone, because of the incompetence, or inherent agendas (which is it? so, if you don't like going the incompetent, route, WTF is the problem with the AGENDA? You seem to want to make this MY fault. NO. There is only the problem and the question of why the solution has not been implemented. It can only because of incompetence or an agenda of control. Me even not saying that would not make it any less true. Me saying that is my JOB as the truth teller. DEAL.)
I have at every turn been the father of this movement, without me to deal with the initial response, the depth of the response otherwise would have been unclued anarchist dupes and that could not have gone viral into thousands of occupies. Like it or not the real history of the movement is MY voice spoke to the TRUTH against dozens of trolls and HELD the true center here. I have EARNED considerable political capital and so i am SPENDING it IN a flurry by throwing it ALL at the real problems. If you think JART doesn't know the truth of how core my voice has been in all of this you are kidding yourself.
So no, i ain't going to shut up. And until JART puts in 1001 sub forums, shes going to have people like me making the point that there can only be two explanations for that.
Get off this site. Anyone from Santa Barbara is in the 1%
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/WorkShops_in_SB_on_Sunday
Snarky disheveled pseudo-intellectuals of Santa Barbara, unite in your opposition of your parents' exploitation of the poor!!!
Barf.
its true thats who i face in GA. I"m a genuine article transplant 99 percenter from provo utah. I followed a woman here; so, your just wrong and ignorant and pig headed.
its true thats who i face in GA. I"m a genuine article transplant 99 percenter from provo utah. I followed a woman here; so, your just wrong and ignorant and pig headed.
Does the woman know you followed her? Aren't there anti-stalking laws in GA?
wow, lol, your spin and attack style is pretty amusing. See. The woman in question drove me in her car from Denver to Santa Barbara. Thats how i came to live here. Yes, she and her parents and half the people at SB GA are in the one percent. Thats why i guess i am not such an azzhole towards them like some fucktards like you. See. They are trapped in a dysfunctional system which robs them of their choices to be social just like it robs us of our choices to have things. If you can't feel any sympathy for the children of the devil, you don't really understand the problems or the endgame. Love can conquer all, even spinning trolling prigs like you.
I am sure there are anti stalking laws, but i don't mind when girls follow me around, so, its never been an issue.
Such harsh language. Tsk Tsk. Sticks and stones u know.
I do like the term azzhole. I started using azzsole (pronounced az-ole) when I was in Italyrecently to describe some of their wild and crazy drivers. All meant in good fun though and the word really does sound nice.
Hmmm fucktard. I guess you have something against people with intellectual disabilities. I'm not playing with you anymore, azzsole!
I agree, I'm having a hard time finding my stuff.
Where did you leave your stuff? http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/ What kind of creeps do what Paterno did?
There is a reason that Paterno decided to not help the kids who Sanduskey would molest after the incident told to him by his assistant. This is the American culture. While Americans wave their flag and go to church, they observe and protect child molesters.The victims of sex crimes are destroyed when they report the crime in America. It happened to Casey Anthony when her father squirmed and lied under oath when he was being examined by defense counsel Baez.
If I was falsely accused by my daughter I would attack. I wouldn't dodge questions. American courts are still practicing the art of witch hunts. No innocent person pays off the accuser or pleads guilty for crimes they didn't commit. If Paterno is charged for his crime, it is less likely this type of thing will happen again. When privileged people know they will be held to account for their crimes, a person like Strauss-Kahn is less likely to be set free after he raped the hotel maid.
The idea that any allegation of past conduct of the victim will protect the perpetrator is irrational and bizarre, but the establishment accepts crimes by the privileged. None of this is secret and its accepted as normal.
Americans are so arrogant that they prefer to not know the truth when they believe molesters and traitors would embarrass them. That's exactly what Michael Moore stated during his question period at the Miami Book Expo. "I don't want to believe that," he replied about the 9/11 Bush attack. The victims cover up to protect the perpetrators. That is irrational and only creeps would lack the dignity to demand justice from the obvious perpetrators.
Steve you have admitted that you are a convicted felon who spent 9 years in prison for extortion. Why are you looking for your next prey here?
I agree there should be topics/subfora
I tried to do that
forum sub topics
http://occupywallst.org/forum/forum-topics/
If those were readily available - perhaps a submenu under "FORUM" button above - I would use them constantly, and I bet most would. It would be much easier to find the stuff you're interested in without having to wade through all the chaff, and would make this forum more effective.
As it is, I'll use your thread, and thank you for it. But how are people going to know it exists? Perhaps it could at least be pinned to the top, if no better implementation is possible.
other people can add subjects to it to keep it up at the top
I posted it in the rules thread
i agree, you said it perfectly. It would be nice that way a million troll threads in a row don't bury relevant topics of discussion.
Have sub-forums with different headings. Something like, 'OWS criticism' as its own sub-forum, that way they do not monopolize the forum.
"Something like, 'OWS criticism' as its own sub-forum, that way they do not monopolize the forum."
EXCELLENT suggestion!
Why not corral the trolls into THEIR OWN SUB-FORUM and let the rest of us carry on with meaningful and urgent dialogue.
While I like to agree with the last point you said, the truth is trolls are very much like vampires and must suck off the blood of others (not other trolls). They will find ways to not end up in that sub-forum.
Quite so.
But if at least we could corral the most grotesque posts, such as the recent "ABORT Your White Fetus - Fill Your Womb With a Mullato - The White Race Must Be Destroyed Before It Kills All The Jews in History" ???
If we could at least send posts of that ilk into a SUB-FORUM, this site would appear a little less like a loonie asylum.
Yes, the worst offenders and their hate-filled posts should be sent to a sub-forum as they clearly violated the rules of this forum. You aren't kidding about them making this forum look like a loonie asylum.
This site should be better moderated. However, whenever the moderator takes action you have trolls return to bitch that they were censored and that this site is crazy about censoring. Just how funny is that.
"However, whenever the moderator takes action you have trolls return to bitch that they were censored and that this site is crazy about censoring."
Yes, but if the troll posts were automatically sent to their sub-forum, then they would be bitching in that sub-forum, so the rest of us could carry on without the constant distraction and disruption.
Would it be a separate but equal forum ?
No, no, all forums are equal. (But some are more equal than others.)
And what might be your definition of "separate but equal"?
several problems with that... a) trolls don't use forums made for trolls.
Okay only one problem but still...
Yes, exactly what i was getting at. There's just so much muck to wade through, not that i don't respect disagreement, it should be encouraged even, but not dominating the forum space and burying otherwise productive discussions.
And so much is not even imo honest criticisms but distracting rants from those who have no interest but to troll, or so it would seem.
and even for say those who are more into the foreclosure aspect of Occupy, or the environment, or whatever the case, it would just make for so much better organization and efficiency of use.
It should be encouraged... I think this is actually good for your movement! You are getting real life feedback from real people that disagree with you. Your signs say 'the 99%' so we have as much right to speak on this forum as anyone.
Regulation will assuredly effect the free exchange of ideas.
yes, but im not talking about regulation, im talking about organization, which is exactly what occupy on the streets is, so why not online?!
As i have always said, criticism is crucial. It keeps us honest. Absolute necessity. Everyone deserves their say. What they don't deserve, is to dominate the conversation just because they talk the most and the loudest.
Exactly. If you want dialogue you have to maintain the ability to have it, and this much traffic pushed through one portal makes it like trying to talk through a waterfall - especially when so much of it is precisely intended to create more noise. That means creating some readily-accessible spaces that are stable enough to maintain dialogue. I'd be in favor of keeping the waterfall-style access too, since it lets you kind of skim over what's going on more generally. Then you have the choice of having to sort posts into their proper subforums, or just having them be creatable only in subforums (these could still be compiled together for the waterfall view, but couldn't be created there. Perhaps the attempt leads to a submenu of subforums to choose from.)
I heartily concur!!! AND I encourage you to send that excellent suggestion to the Mod Team. Do you know how to contact them?
I do not, would love any suggestions in that regard.
The Moderator goes by the name "agnosticnixie" and you can reach her through this post :
http://occupywallst.org/forum/moderating-policies
Good luck! I really like your thinking.
thanks and thanks! :) -edit- "page not found" with link.
So sorry! Here's the correct link :
http://occupywallst.org/forum/moderating-policies-will-be-reposted-somewhere-pro/
aha! here we go. thanks again!
Yes, it should be done by everyone, in a huge cross-post message board festival of truth process...... Corporate media has trained people to not care, yet they capitolize on cross-posting features after years of making sure that we get blockked for spreading info. We need to reactive the use of message boards where people can host discussions with those they can reach, while being able to call upon the larger occupy movement when boards are attacked or abused by..... those who do not want humans to optimize for peace, healing and protection of the planet.
You have said it all my friend...and in the end this will do more damage than wall street can do to this movement...all in the name of Free Speech...which by the way has nothing to do with any movement...can you imagine the civil rights movement giving the right of free speech to the KKK at their rallies...
I assume most of these posts will make it to the Smithsonian Institution, for future generations to read and study...after which they'll scratch their heads and say.."what the fuck were those idiots thinking?"
personally, i believe that posts are only important when people communicate about them. If no one has an opinion either pro or con, then the post gets lost in the noise. call it the digital market place of ideas, if your ideas are not marketable, or use of a better word would be implementable, then they role off the page and are never seen again. the best way to see ideas stay at the top is to communicate with the post creator, kinda like i'm doing here.
Ok, i'll stop whining, but really, why should this forum look more like the KKK forum than a OWS one? THIS is the image we want?
Yes yes, it draws attention to the reality of the problems of the greater collective blah blah blah but can we not see how contrary and counterproductive this is to rational, mature conversation and discussion?
Yes, we need someway to deal with this... may I recommend mod points like slashdot?
Or, give mod points to the moderators, who distribute them to people who make salient points... who then can give those points to forum posts to form a ranking on relevancy/importance.
I'm with you 100%
see, right now is exaclty what i mean. Current topics at the top:
-'Neither you, me or anyone else owes a jew a fucking thing' -Instead of shitting on american flags...(soomething about israel flags..) -'THere were no gas chambers...'
REALLY?! Those are the topics we get to discuss? These are the topics curious people get to see when they take a look into this whole OWS thing?
How is this helping!? Why, for the love of God, why? We can do so much better than this. Oh, wait, the ones just below that 'abort your white fetus...' um, ok great. Real great vibe going here. Come on. You want to let radical extremists have their say? let them do it without drowning out everything else. It is so disheartening to see, and a total FAIL in terms of recruiting or gaining the interest of the 99% that might otherwise get with us.
No. It will be, "oh look honey, they were right about all they said on the news. These Occupy guys aren't for the people, there just crazy extremists that don't believe the holocaust happened. No thanks!"
Pretty straightforward and logical progression. Do we want to turn people off? I'm all for uncensored raw reality and freedom of speech, but it is probably alot of it strategy of negative swamping to drown out everyone else.
For quick semi-fixes how about a keyword/tag cloud widget. And a search widget. That would make it easier to find posts on the same topic or individual posters.
Currently I frequently use a site search over at Google. Type in "site:http://occupywallst.org [search item]"
Who decides which are the most worthy and urgent topics?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-war-with-america-was-won-before-the-first-shot
and to add, look at occupy out in the streets. organized marches. working groups. staged marches. A camp. why not online as well?
If it were compared to this forum, it would be like the occupiers without a camp wandering around neighbourhood aimlessly in small groups, dissapaiting quickly, and leaving an ineffectual traces. Even though the conversation is still rolling in a way as well. Just too disorganized in my opinion.
Exactly.
The people at home who want to also have a voice and who could make substantial contributions especially to formulating and refining issues specific to actionable legislation etc are almost totally ignored.
Is this on purpose?
yes, if Occupy is truly representative of the 99%, and many people are financially, physically or otherwise not able to attend in person, why should they not have some platform from which to be represented? It only makes sense to me.
And meaning real representation. A hand in shaping proposals, having their vote counted etc.
I can see people on the spot feeling like "look, I'm here, I sacrificed to be here, I did what it took and therefore I'm here when we talk about it." That they have earned such position as they have. It's perfectly understandable, I think most people would feel that way.
But if they don't make use of the fact that so many would like to be part of the discussion, they're throwing away an immense value. It wouldn't take much for this forum to become a valuable resource for both groups, those on the spot and those who are interested. A mechanism for ideas and information to be rewarded over gossip and trolls would make it a much more efficient way to get ideas and information without losing it in the noise.
Ultimately, if you expect to gain real standing, you will have to engage with the broader public, especially those interested in what you're doing. Here they are...
It's simple. Traffic keeps the post near the top. Vile bullshit gets hidden or dies out.
yeah, as it stands, that is the best tactic. Ignore the troll b.s. and keep posting in productive threads. But sometimes it gets buried all the same. Then it is a matter of only who posts the most. Still, it would be nice to not have to search for pages to find a thread you wish to add to. And even then, i cannot find that thread the next day, even if i have something more to say on a particular topic.
I've noticed. I just made a comment about MikeyD saying something brash on this post: How trolls think - TROLLOSOPHY exposed! 69 comments 3 weeks ago by TIOUAISE last comment 15 minutes ago. Mine was the last comment and it was deleted Too quickly to explain. Good post though, check it out.
we could copy important threads over to a wiki. other than that, a whole month ago jart promised sub forums and i think the failure to deliver pretty much proves they LIKE the chaos.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/WorkShops_in_SB_on_Sunday
oh really? hmm. Im all for chaos and the natural flow and all that, but if it would help the Occupy cause, and help for clarity and accuracy in terms of having access to pertinent info rather than drowned out by trolls, then i think sub-forums is the way to go. Too confusing and scattered this way in my opinion.
i don't think you are reading me. there are only two possibilities. Either Jart is that incompetent, which seems frankly ludicrous, or she wants to maintain this chaotic atmosphere on purpose. Don't tell me. I have tried time and time again to talk them out of it. I have begged and pleaded, argued and explained- all to no avail- and since day one. So if you think you can do better, go right ahead, but i think what it comes down to is the decision has been made to allow this to be a trollhatten chaos center, and probably because Jart serves George Soros, or some oligarch- and does not actually have the interests of the occupy in mind.
While that may seem harsh, it is was Occam's razor demands.
Seriously, how hard could it be in a month and a half to generate sub forums?
Every other admin I have ever had could do stuff like that in under 48 hours and the better ones in under 45 minutes.
The only solid truth we have here is that your not saying anything new- its been said hundreds of times before,... and Jart made a promise regarding new sub forums which she never followed through on, and, has consistently ignored requests for putting up a wiki here until i was forced to have one put up some place else.
Given those facts, any reasonable person must assume that this site is a giant spew mess by design and intention, the only question that comes after that then is, WHY? The answer is obvious. The oligarchs more than anything fear an ORGANIZED social movement- but astro turfing a chaotic and self defeating social movement is ideal to them for their purposes.
well i dont want to get all conspiratorial about it, but i do agree that if they are not open to suggestions then they are hardly better than those they oppose. Maybe it's time to occupy occupy. If you are truly about the 99% then you will be open to considerations of ALL of them, not just those that suit your personal fancy. I have yet to be convinced. Change is inevitable either way. I believe in the heart of the occupy movement. But if it loses that sincerity of heart and intention, then by my definition, is has ceased to be Occupy in my books, regardless of whether they call themselves Occupy Wall Street or not.
I am not going to jump on the bandwagon with you automatically, but if what you say is true, then that is a sad state of affairs, or maybe just laziness or lack of time or people or something. And i have no reason to distrust you. And i certainly agree that it is a mess of a setup they have going here, but that is my opinion at this point.
Let's occupy occupy! You have to consider that this a seat of the pants thing, i don't know the intentions of everyone involved, that's why it's important to remain critical, and OWS would if they were serious about remaining transparent, and serious about representing the '99%' after all, that is a large percentage. Actions speak louder. And if it is consensus, then by definition that includes everyone in the 99%. And everyone should have an equal voice and say in the matter, but also be educated about whatever opinion they may have.
I still have faith overall, everyone makes mistakes. But good to keep it honest, or it will turn on us for the worst.
@ 'reddy2' et al : PLEASE TRY http://www.occupyr.com/ & NJOY !
Instead of expecting the moderators or admins do to this, why don't some of you take the initiative and create a website for this purpose.
i would if i had any concept of how to go about that. More to the point though, this is technically sort of the 'official' OWS site, it comes up when you type it into google. So there is sort of the implications that people who are curious come here, and if they see all this trollishness and nothing else, it is not going to encourage them to want to look further into OWS and Occupy, and their impressions are from one angry rant that isnt a fair representative of Occupy
Your right, in that many people come here since they can't be in NY to find out what is going on.
I agree - the waterfall approach is a nice introduction, but if the owners of this site want to promote substantial discussion they need to provide a way for us to easily access older posts.
that is the nature of discourse.. you must repeat your self over an over.. not preserve all your thoughts in hard copy for future reference
true, but for the average person coming here and seeing a bunch of troll threads may get the complete wrong impression. After all , this is the official more less site of OWS, why not make it more appealing and easy to follow former discussions so as to build off of them
http://www.occupyr.com/Demands/thread.php?id=49 here is a more political toned message board
thanks for the link, i will check it out. Im not necessarily talking about specific demands, but just a more streamlined structure to the forums to help productive discussion in general.
Important?
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Maybe you should hire someone to build a professional website. You know... create a JOB?
Yes, it needs to be done. What I have been doing is once I get to the forum pages I let them load for up to 3 days worth of data then I cut and paste the whole page by hitting 'select all' and 'copy' then it gets pasted into an email with a header titled 'Today's OWS posts. Then I pick through clicking each article that looks like it's 'very important' and cut and paste each one with comments threads and reply to those which I feel I can contribute or ask questions or do my own research!
Hope that helps!
What are we fighting? Fascism!!! Who wrote this post? A fascist!!!
Uh, how does anyone share a definition of what are "worthy and urgent topics"? How do they know who each other are IF they know what "worthy and urgent topics" actually consist of?
Priority is an issue, how do we know who is observing it? Authority to meet demands must be gained or they are unmet. Logically, gaining that authority is a priority.
Re register here with "ART5" following your username
and know that the people of the states can unify under ARTicle 5 to meet their needs through article 5 and ratify proper amendment in defense of the intent of the constitution.
How is the board chaotic? I see many threads that are discussing OWS driven topics.
Is there any moderators or admins that could respond to this? I think it would help out our cause and organize everything to be more productive overall.
Yes, How abut a forum strictly dedicated to the proper method of shitting in a bucket
Chaos is a beautiful thing.
.??
What????
what about what? lol why are you so baffled i don't get it...