Forum Post: Im So Scared of What Could Happen!
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 19, 2011, 9:50 p.m. EST by DontOccupyWallSt
(-15)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Im young and in a year will be going to college. But what would be the point of going to college if everyone was going to make good money no matter what they do. I also don't think you have thought this through because if everyone was paid better then everything would have to be more expensive and all you would have done was caused inflation and decreased the value of the dollar. A classless society will always fail because no one will be happy and no progress will be made. It is everyones dream to be wealthy so therefore people (with the exception of the ows people) will need to work hard to achieve there dream and in the progress of all the determined people trying to achieve there dream, the society will advance. If no one could become wealthier than others then there would be no reason for anyone to get anything done. Im just scared that even if i go out in the world and get my education and proceed to work hard I could never achieve my dream of wealth because some unintelligent lazy people decided that instead of working it would be easier to protest and change what is right. Please for the good of America and ALL Americans(even you) don't try to change what is right, Is there any other nation in the world that you would rather live...NO because they all have rich and poor except communist ones which have way more severe problems than we do here. The standard that we consider poor in America is still better than the normal conditions of other nations. Every single person in this country can go get clean water from a drinking fountain or food from a shelter. Some other people from other nations don't have that option. If you are concerned about our posterity then socialism is not the way to go because the society will not advance and as the rest of the world does we will become poor and possibly in the same position as those nations where the masses are struggling to survive. The other great thing about America and capitalism is that everyone has a shot at achieving the American dream of wealth...Please dont take that dream away from me and all the other youth of America.
Even if you consider yourself poor just think of all the luxuries that you take for granted. Even if you consider yourself to be lower class you have a chance and the freedom to become upper class all you need is a little determination. I am determined to make it too the top and it scares me beyond belief that I may not have the freedom to do so. All the freedoms that allow you to protest like freedom of speech and assembly are a part of the Constitution that allows every single person to be and do whatever they want. I think that everyone needs to think about the consequences that OWS could bring. There is no other nation in the world that i would rather live in and honestly I think that if you truly think about it you will realize how great America is. I think that this is a very sensible and realistic article and if you agree with it or were influenced by it please spread it. If you really think about it these changes will take away so much of our freedom that it seems OWS takes for granted, once you take away the freedom of capitalism think of how many other freedoms could be soon to go as well.
Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. You must face your fear, let it pass through you, and around you; and when your fear is gone, only you will remain.
Then you can wake up and see that people aren't stupid. Have some faith in your fellow humans. A whole lot of people think we need a more just society, and socialism has little to do with it.
You've been propagandized by Fox News fear-mongers. You don't know about socialism. We had what is now called socialism for most of the last century. It was the most prosperous time our society has ever seen. It saw the growth of the middle class and that thing called the American Dream that you claim to be defending, but are really helping to destroy - by allowing fear to get the best of you.
Laissez Faire did not build the American Dream, a strong middle class did - in fact is that dream. And it was government policy, acting in the best interests of all Americans - with our informed consent, to promote the general welfare - that made it possible. But now government policy, corrupted by corporate cash and lobbyists, is destroying the dream, and is doing it without our consent, and against our best interests. We demand redress of our grievances.
We had greatness in this country once, and we demand greatness again.
Now I say unto you: Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country; the only thing we have to fear is fear itself; the problems of mankind are man-made, and can be solved by man; stand with us so that government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from the earth.
Buff up.
You are now Paul Abraham F. Roosevelt Muad'Dib.
The beginning is a very delicate time!
Without change something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens.
The sleeper must awaken!
goosebumps!
Courage is not the absence of fear, it is acting in spite of it - Mark Twain.
i love that movie
Thank u for your great thoughts. We're on the same wave length. Apparently, we read some of the same things.
Do not worry DontOccupyWallSt.
The Marxist/Communist/Statist crap spewed by anonwolf above (a Crypto-Marxist: Pretends to be socialist while spouting fantasy, revisionist history, & Marxist dogma) has nothing to do with what made America the world's lone superpower. What made America the greatest, most powerful country in the history of this planet in a short 150 years was the embrace of Capitalist principles, private property, & the rule of law enshrined in our Declaration of Independence & Constitution.
These two documents are the greatest impediments to the siezure of power by the OWS Crypto-Marxist.
The REAL 99% have massively rejected OWS despite the best efforts of the sycophantic, boot licking, main stream media to promote OWS as some cuddly, cute, "Just doing the Right Thing" collection of Social Justice idealists.
Most of the REAL 99% of America recognizes the Marxist fundamental principles of OWS: "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" & the OWS disdain for private property & recoils from the OWS cause.
I will be strongly attacked for this comment because the last thing a Marxist can tolerate is Freedom of Thought.
Always remember: Marxists/Communists/Statists must lie to you & I since the truth about Marxism/Communism/Statism is so hideous. This is why there is NO free press in the "Workers' Paradises" of Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, China, & Soviet Union.
You and those like you are going down, 99watching. We're fighting, and we're winning. And We won't stop.
How is that "occupy Zuccotti Park" thing working for you, Hmmmm ???
"People react to fear, not love. They don't teach you that in Sunday school, but it's true," Richard Nixon
Fear is not the mind-killer......fear is the mind-willer.
Great post, but please stop with the male chauvinism speak. Make an effort. Inclusion is key to credibility. Thanks.
Last para rewrite:
Now I say unto you: Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country; the only thing we have to fear is fear itself; the problems of humans are self-inflicted, and can be solved by humankind; stand with us in solidarity, so that government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from the earth.
So, that entire last paragraph is a mashup of presidential speeches. Anonwolf should change them for the feminist agenda?
yes! nothing is sacred, isn't that the point?
DUNE - Earth's future if we don't get our act together.
The 1% are indeed the Harkonnen. Ya hya chouhada!!
We need to shut down spice production ASAP. ;)
He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing. He who controls the spice, controls the universe. ;)
awesome.
LOL. Awesomeness.
“Then Jesus said to his disciples: ‘Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?’” (Luke 12:22-26, NIV). (Also see Matthew 6:25-34)
The country is great but apparently the 99% are idiots.
It was laissez-faire (to the extent that it was implemented) that allowed those who provided the jobs of the middle class to do so. And it is the gradual abolishment of economic freedom and the policy of governmental interference which is causing the economic problems of today. It is precisely the government's ability to interfere in the economy that attracts corporations to purchase legislators. Lacking that power, there would be no incentive to do so.
OMG! You mean this is a Socialist movement? Now I'm scared! No one will be happy anymore! I won't be able to get rich and crush poor people with my financial influence! How will I conquer the world now? Despair....Despair..
It is a socialist movement and you all might just be too blind to see it.
Damn! I knew it. And they told me it was just a plain old democracy movement. Oh well, It's been fun comrade. Guess I'm going to have to learn how to be a good wage slave.
You see this is what I was afraid of, you guys truly don't know what you are staring. I have a guy in another comment telling me that an uprising is the only way the problems are going to be fixed. A big problem is that all the protesters just have a very general common viewpoint but all really have their own problems that they want fixed.
I'm scared too! All these people running around spouting off different ideas. What could be better than a system created over 200 years ago by a handful of intellectuals? We haven't learned anything since then!
Forgive me, I do not wish to suggest that socialism nor capitalism is the ideal, however, I did wish to point out that the system in which we reside today is not the system which was founded 235 years ago.
The financial infrastructure which is in place today is in drastic contrast to the ideals of many of the founders agreements.
Thomas Jefferson, for one, specifically stated: "The art and mystery of banks... is established on the principle that 'private debts are a public blessing.' That the evidences of those private debts, called bank notes, become active capital, and aliment the whole commerce, manufactures, and agriculture of the United States. Here are a set of people, for instance, who have bestowed on us the great blessing of running in our debt about two hundred millions of dollars, without our knowing who they are, where they are, or what property they have to pay this debt when called on; nay, who have made us so sensible of the blessings of letting them run in our debt, that we have exempted them by law from the repayment of these debts beyond a give proportion (generally estimated at one-third). And to fill up the measure of blessing, instead of paying, they receive an interest on what they owe from those to whom they owe; for all the notes, or evidences of what they owe, which we see in circulation, have been lent to somebody on an interest which is levied again on us through the medium of commerce. And they are so ready still to deal out their liberalities to us, that they are now willing to let themselves run in our debt ninety millions more, on our paying them the same premium of six or eight per cent interest, and on the same legal exemption from the repayment of more than thirty millions of the debt, when it shall be called for."
Yet what we have today is exactly that which he described a distaste for.
There is a long running history in America of renovating our financial institutional foundation; of which the core fundamentals last changed roughly over 70 years ago and the Public debt rate since that time has drastically increased: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/USDebt.png
As such, it is not an unreasonable statement to assert that it may indeed be time for a readdress of those principle considerations.
If you take out the sarcasm that is really almost true with the exception of the last line. The system has worked for this long with minimal changes and all of a sudden people want to make huge changes...you have to walk before you can run.
It hasn't worked for everyone. The Native Americans have had neither liberty nor justice since you took it from them.
The G.O.P are the ones who made the huge changes dude. We used to be more of a socialist nation than capitalist. Its you and people like you who distorted this nation.
So your saying that we should just sit back, relax and let our politicians whore themselves out to anyone with the most money. We should just look the other way when war crimes are commited. We should just quietly move in with our relatives when we are evicted from our own houses. We should all bow down and worship the great bankers and sacrafice goats to the holy CEOs. WELL, I sir, am against prostitution. I think war crimes are bad. And I hate the idea of moving back into my parents' house. If you think I'm going to worship any living man, you're wrong! You've got a lot of explaining to do.....
War crimes...what the hell are you talking about haha
Uh, in case you've been asleep in front of the TV or drunk for the last eight years (or both), the United States invaded and occupied Iraq, a nation that didn't attack us, didn't have the means to attack us, didn't possess WMDs, wasn't connected to al Qaeda, and wasn't involved in the 9/11 attacks. That invasion and occupation--which took place after the Bush administration intentionally blew off a U.N. Security Council vote required under international law--resulted in the deaths of at least several hundred thousand innocent Iraqi citizens, not to mention 4,000 U.S. troops. The United States is guilty of war crimes on so many levels that it would be funny if it weren't so serious. And it's exactly the reason that people like Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney won't travel abroad--they've been threatened with arrest for war crimes by numerous countries, and they KNOW they're guilty. You're just another in a LONG line of idiots...
The fact that you are here, wasting our time, proves that we are winning. Our message is reaching people all across this nation, and people are hearing it, even if they don't want to. Most people agree with us in principle, and that infuriates people like you. You can't stand that we're winning. And trust me, we WILL win. So, the fact that you are here is proof of our success, mr Dont Occupy Wall Street.
So, thats normal. Why should we all be exactly the same in terms of political beliefs? We're not a political party.
You don't know what socialism is. So you calling us that is meaningless.
The Forgotten Man ...excellent video http://www.mcnaughtonart.com/artwork/view_zoom/?artpiece_id=379
Ummm, you forgot something... some people actually WANT to work together and build something different. This is in contrast (since you're a freshman) to just doing something for themselves.
Actually a senior but yes some people do want to work together and build something but that some will be the minority just like they are now (like the protesters). Every major advancement is achieved by humans drive to achieve success and it seems that you want to take away the ability to gain true success.
No I don't. I'm about to graduate with a BS in Business Admin and a minor in Economics. I've maintained a well-above 3.0 GPA throughout HS and college, and sympathize with what this movement truly stands for.
I invite you to educate yourself about the true meaning of this movement, removing monetary influence from politics.
Why do you say that removing monetary influence from politics is the true meaning of the movement?
Because it is...
I wish the original Adbusters page was still up, but this one still states it clearly.
http://www.adbusters.org/campaigns
Nvm I found it: http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet.html
But what evidence do you have that the efforts of OWS are still targeting that objective? On the contrary, I haven't seen them take any action towards that end. It's not even talked about on the front page, no news items are posted about it, and the events scheduled don't seem to bear on that issue.
I think a lot of people at the beginning, myself included, considered this movement to be just that and that's where OWS originally drew its widespread support. As the movement has gone along however, the majority of Americans who first were excited about that goal have become disillusioned with what seems an entirely different agenda.
My mistake, I should have said "was".
I'm of the belief that the movement has failed now because it hasn't upheld this message. The leaderless facet has caused the message to become clouded and overshadowed. Of course people are going to focus on those who are saying "Robin Hood was right", it brings about the most emotion.
This was a terrific idea to bring a divided nation together, but the citizens have caused it to fail miserably.
I agree, it had promise and brought a sense of hope that things that were wrong could be addressed and remedied. Now ....... it's really a shame that opportunity is slipping away.
Every major advancement? How about the ability to be dissipate conflict and turn it peaceful? That's an advancement isn't it? Or, make a beautiful, healthy family? (are you going to put your capitalist hat on for that?) Or.... is it just much you can make some thing BIGGGGER!!
Seriously, there are rich people that are depressed saps and there are poor people who shine with happiness, there is little correlation and no meaningful causation.....
....don't drink the kool-aid(TM)(Kraft).
Well this conflict is pretty peaceful as opposed to what it would be like if the very Constitution that you are attacking wasn't protecting you.
The constitution does not protect me. Don't get religious about it. Our shared principles do.
If you were not protected by the Constitution then how come you are not in jail. Oh wait thats right you are protected by the Constitution, it's not getting religious about it it's pure fact. If it was not for the freedom of speech and assembly you along with all the other protesters would be in prison.
It's partially true "Well this conflict is pretty peaceful as opposed to what it would be like if the very Constitution" ... "wasn't protecting you.", I'll give you that. But you can't tell me you haven't noticed that corporate influences on governments have steadily eroded individual rights, not just in the US, but all over the world. Are we attacking the constitution, or defending it.
"It is everyones dream to be wealthy "
Also, this is not true either. Most people do not aspire to monetary wealth, most people value spending time with their family, being able to give their children the things they need and finding something they love doing and doing that, either as their career or as a hobby.
Many people choose careers that they KNOW won't bring them wealth but they follow their heart's desire because it is what they feel called to do.
It's everyones dream but there is a difference between a dream and a goal. The people at the top made it their goal the people at the bottom just kept it as a dream.
West Peoria rules! You are clueless!
My young friend, I do not think you have lived long enough to understand. Nor do I think you've worked hard enough to feel what the people protesting are feeling. Your argument needs more development, and your writing needs practice. It reads like you've been fed a lot of misinformation and what I recommend is that you exercise your rights and start following your dreams. Your fear is your enemy, not OWS. Your dreams are what can propel you to make lots of money, and there is still a lot of money to be made if that is really what you want. You just need an education, and if you can afford to go - Go! If you need to take out loans, just be smart about it, cuz if anymore jobs are sent overseas (my husband's job ended up over there. He was unemployed in his field for 3 years, he became a handyman to pay bills. He worked very, very hard. Then this August he got a job not in his field, for a severe pay cut (he is 60 years old and is making $16.00/hr - down from $25.00 when his job got sent overseas). He had to wait 3 months before he could be hired by the company and before he could be eligible for health benefits. It just isn't that simple, you see? You need a job too. Maybe you have one. I hope so. And I wish you good luck. Maybe you'll visit with some of the people in your community and get to know what some of their issues are, from the people - not the media, or parents, or others who try to sway you one way or another. Follow your heart. Best wishes to you.
Bla blah blah!
Poor, terrified, innocent youth - afraid of what we might be doing to provide (I assume, her, because of the sacarin, suplicating tone), a future. I don't know, but it sounds like trumped-up tripe to sway the masses to me. I wonder how many more tricks these trolls can pull out of their hat?
I see a lot of Right Wing talking points here - freedom (many times!), communism, socialism, scared, ... Don't try to mess people's mind and stop using fear tactic, kid. In case you really don't know by now or pretend don't know. OWS movement is about:
Fighting social INJUSTICE!
-I am NOT poor, I have a full time job, higher education, benefits, healthcare and I am not young. I am fully and strongly support OWS movement. Why do I bother my time my energy to do this, to support and protest along with all OWS folks? Because I have a CONSCIENCE and I don't want my country to go down to the toilette!!! And I am trying to protect your American Dream! At your young age, you should not just okay with America is "JUST still better than the normal conditions of other countries". We can do better than that!! You are too, the 99%!
"But what would be the point of going to college if everyone was going to make good money no matter what they do." ... The experience of college (I personally really enjoyed my time), learning, making something of your life (becoming a doctor). "The standard that we consider poor in America is still better than the normal conditions of other nations." ... That's actually one of the main reasons I support Occupy. Allot of the conditions that other nations are facing are caused by 1st world nations and their corporations.
I'm not sure that the poor American is better off than in the average other nation (especially considering lack of health care). I've spent some time traveling and have been wondering a lot to myself about this. It's sad to have to ask such questions about our country. This much is clear, the USA demanded much more respect around the world a decade ago than it does now.
Many of our freedoms are being taken away on a daily basis. If you think you are going to find a good paying job when you get out of college, think again, there are many foreigners with a better education and will work for less that are flocking to this country.
Huh well thats weird because im pretty sure one of the grievances of OWS was to allow free immigration.
"Many of our freedoms are being taken away on a daily basis."
can you list the freedoms taken away today, yesterday, October 12th, and July 18th?
Your post is proof positive why our society is so shot...Why should I do anything or try, if everyone is going to make the same amount of money....
Maybe we need to stop doing what we are doing and reward people based on the actual good they contribute to society...
Profiting from war, death, sickness..would be gone..
We will need to work on this, if humanity is to have any chance at all at not destroying itself....
I know we can do better than what's been presented to us as some "reality". Let's change that, because our current state of affairs = death. For the living, do we have any choice?
Well you sure are doing good for society...you earned a gold star reward!!!!!
That makes better sense doesn't it, then to get rewarded "a gold star" on Wall Street for ripping off an old lady of her retirement?
Jesus gets a gold star too...Not for anything magical, but for trying to show people, through his teachings, how not to act like animals..
You have failed in this regard sir.
How exactly was an old lady ripped off of her retirement.
Stop acting like you don't know...You are wasting everyone's time and that probably what you like to do...
I think that you truly have the wrong idea about Wall Street. As for wasting time how about OWS
I don't have the wrong idea..I just look at the proximately of Wall Street to the NY Federal Reserve to know just how f*cked up things are..
Wall Street is Enron..just on a global scale..
When you say wall street are you refering to the rich in general, brockers, banks, or large corporations? Because you cannot generalize what you are really talking about by the term Wall Street.
No not everyone on Wall Street is on the Ponz.....I don't mind rich people or stock brokers...But their are people on Wall Street enriching themselves on the backs of others..
You have to know about the connectivity and relationship of the World's Central banks, Federal Reserve and Wall Street to realize that the system is a giant Ponzi scheme..
We may have some nice people working within the Ponzi scheme..but it's still a Ponzi scheme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXt1cayx0hs
Wall Street is very close to the top of the pyramid scheme..That's why they seem to always be winning while the rest of the economy falters...The Federal Reserve prints and the money goes into the TBTF bank at 0% interest rates..(ZIRP)..and that fiat money can go to pay for allot of things...like bonuses.
How you pay for it all:
http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/guest/Chris-Turner-Savings-Lost.php
I don't think OWS is about actual absolute equality. It is about fairness. Company profits and wages are not distributed fairly. 30/40 years ago the average CEO earned approximately 40 times the average worker's wage. Today the average CEO earns 343 times the average worker's wage. People can actually work at full time jobs in this country and still be in poverty and qualify for food stamps. OWS is not saying that everyone should be paid the same amount or that the rich should not be rich. It's pretty simply stating that the system could be more fair. It could ensure that everyone who works earns a living wage. And, if that were true, guess what, the need for entitlements would begin to decrease, right?
"Company profits and wages are not distributed fairly."
that's the company's business, not yours. if you don't like how a private company operates, don't be a customer.
to get to what you are asking for, the solution it to reduce the size of government profoundly. as in, cut it down by more than half. this will decrease the power and influence of govt's 49% partners in big business that games the system, devouring OUR tax money.
the culprits are those that make and enforce the rules, not those that take advantage of them. if ows was in DC rather than lower manhattan, you'd have a lot more support.
but that won't happen because ows is a left-wing mob that won't hold a left-wing administration and senate responsible. it's plain to see.
Most working people don't have the luxury to just up and quit a job that is exploiting them with a low wage. I do agree with you that our government is also a problem, but it has more to do with money in politics. Corporate greed and money in politics are the two biggest concerns. They work together. The corporations have bought our politicians, both democrat and republican. The government is not working for the people, but for special interests.
"Most working people don't have the luxury to just up and quit a job that is exploiting them with a low wage."
??? -- did I claim otherwise?
I agree with the rest, but keep in mind that the govt makes the rules. the individual elected scumbags allow themselves to be bought.
corporate execs can't put put a politician in jail, but the state can put the exec in jail. that's the distinction. execs do not swear to uphold the constitution, elected scumbags do.
ultimately, the politicians are responsible. if ows was in DC in front of the white house and the capital, support would skyrocket.
I don't think you are wrong that DC should be a target of the protests, but I do think you're wrong to say or think that because it's focus has been on Wall Street the movement is less meaningful and shouldn't be supported. Give it a chance.
But short of the absolute miniscule amount of people that are really struggling to live(homeless) thats the thing about America people can get food stamps, can get wellfare, and even the homeless can go to a drinking fountain or a shelter. Thats something that people in third world countries cant do.
No, the numbers are not miniscule. 1 out of 7 Americans is on food stamps and many of them have jobs, unfairly low paying jobs! 22% of American children live in poverty. 40% of African American children live in poverty. The 1% control 42% of the wealth in this country. The list goes on and on.
I do understand what you are saying about third world countries but OWS is not addressing that issue (which needs attention, I agree). It is addressing inequality here in the U.S. Honestly, I don't think inequality among nations will be dealt with until inequality within nations is dealt with.
I do not think those numbers are nearly accurate unless the term poverty is very very loosely defined. Also I think all the OWS protesters are just as selfish as the rich, you all just want your debt erased and are using people who are really in poverty as an excuse.
Those numbers are accurate for the way poverty is defined here in the United States. Comparing to a third world country the definition is probably generous, however, that does not make the corporate greed and corruption of our government okay. I have heard a few protesters say they want their debt erased and that is silly, I agree. I do not think that is one of the demands of OWS. Two of the main goals of OWS is a living wage for all and get money out of government (meaning our politicians can't be bought off by the 1%).
Ok well at least you are one of the sensible few I have heard from but I think thats the biggest problem with these protests...there are only a few sensible few protesting that have reasonable hopes for the changes that could occur. Half the people that I have heard from say something completely ridiculous that could never happen. If you want OWS to succeed everyone needs to figure out one common and realistic goal. Maybe instead of attacking the rich you should get everyone to focus and raising the minimum wage to a realistic amount or something along those lines.
Exactly why some of us here can see the potential here for a new/old Constitutional Revolution and encourage any concerned American especially to re- read the US Constitution, Bill of Rights and the Federalist Papers- then with them as a blueprint go head to head with the corruption in our government, learn too about the problem with the privately owned FED (see the threads concerning the FED at www.occupytogether.org)
The fact that you and I are concerned along with the rest of us 99 ers and 99 percenters speaks volumes to me that there is plenty of hope that Americans will not allow our nation to disintegrate into the scenario of any socialistic/ communistic and bleak third world country you describe- as Americans we can abolish our government if necessary and we'd all be truly damned if our military didn't know these facts. Also, were you aware of Militias in the US? Well, many are retired or current military people who for over 50 years are actually equipped to defend our country should we ever get to the point where we need to go in that direction and they are groups with considerable private funding that exist. I only know this through contact with an elderly retired CIA guy whose business was about construction of underground and in mountainside BEAUTIFUL homes for various VIPs in government- he also told me back in 1993 that desalination would be a big industry much needed by 2015/20 I don't think he was too far off the mark because I have seen that places such as Mexico, Saudi Arabia/ Middle East are using or planning such water methods. The other guy is a Vet with contacts in far northern California- neither of these guys knows the other so it has to be true that these Militias exist at the scales described including the hidden armories.
In closing, as the retired CIA man would say:"Keep the Faith!"
OWS is somewhat hard to pin down because it is a broad social movement. But, if you go to Zuccotti Park and read all of the placards it is fascinating. They all say very different things but they all coalesce around the issue of economic fairness and most agree that the economic inequality we have now is the result of corporate greed and money (corruption) in our government.
Great talking with you. And, don't forget, these same people who care about economic inequality here care very much about it globally.
The capitalist are abusing their "freedom".
Capitalism isn't the issue truly at hand, exactly.
The philosophy of responsibility of personal ownership of the institutions therein to the just position of capital infrastructure pressed upon the individual as requirements for pursuit of happiness and fruition is, however, the general address.
To be a capitalist society is not synonymous with a debt driven economy facilitated by institutions which have no individual citizen equal to their institutional identity.
THe only reason with have a debt driven economy is because people always want what they can't have only some people buy what they can't have and spend themselves into debt.
Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A
that is just one symptom of a much greater underlying problem
Yep..The whole system is debt based! It's a joke..You can't cure debt issues if your currency is a debt instrument itself! Ponzimania baby!
I don't think that what you all want is even possible. There is no way that the banks will just erase your debt. If you start putting massive taxes on the rich they will leave the country, if you keep them in then that will take away freedom more than even you could imagine.
In 2008, I didn't think it was possible for the federal government to just erase the debts of investment banks at the expense of every citizen.
Is it fair to assume you come from an affluent family?
I come from an average family but due to my above average work ethic, determination, and intelligence I want to pursue wealth and want to have the freedom to do it. Also in the long run the bailouts harmed citizens far less than if the economy never recovered from the crash.
You're very misinformed. But we'll win. You'll see. We're starting with voting Scott Walker out of office in Wisconsin.
You won't win because most Americans realize how good they have it and don't find the need to blame the government every time something doesn't go right for them. You are not the 99%, you are probably about the 7%.
What are you talking about? You're the ones who blame the government for everything. OWS blames big business. lol!
This is why we will win. Because the opposition is composed of people like you who don't have a clue and can't afford to buy one. Because the truth (and logic)...is priceless. LAWLZ.
It wasn't the bailouts that hurt the citizens so much as the derivatives and associated CDS' that created the issue in the first place..
The banks profited on both ends..
At this point the only thing that makes sense if we give a f*ck about humanity, instead of the banks and these BS fiat pieces of crap in our pockets, is debt forgiveness...
Yea, debt jubillee, bitchez...Since the debt was fraud to start with....
Maybe so, but the bailouts benefited the 1% exponentially more than they helped the rest of us.
They could have just as well paid peoples mortgages and kept them in their jobs, but they made a conscious decision not to.
I'm not going to lie...that actually makes sense but out of all the arguments of the protesters I heard that was the first one that did. However, that is in the past and theres not much to do about it now and the U.S. is so far in debt that it would be impossible to pay off mortgages and debt now.
Exactly, and we're very, very pissed off about it.
But what im saying is that there is nothing that can be done about it, so whats the point of the protests.
"there is nothing that can be done about it"
If history has taught us anything, it's that any empire can fall to an uprising
Have you never seen The Godfather Part 2?
I have not seen it but is a violent uprising what you really want?
This is a non-violent movement.
You said violent, not me.
I know I said it because I want to know if that's really what you want.
Violence is morally reprehensible. This is about winning hearts and minds, not terrorizing people.
if all of a countries debts were paid off, there would be no money in circulation: the money is created AS debt. It does not actually have to be done this way; it simply kind of evolved this way, and there are better systems we COULD use... but the current system still serves a certain powerful minority, that creates money out of nothing, controls who gets those monies as debt created 'loans', and charges interest on this money they are creating (causing inflation which is like a hidden tax on the poor/ everyone else as money devalues) for essentially moving some electronic digits around - something our technology can do pretty well without these 'bankers' and so on taking a cut (A CUT, mind you, a percent, not a FEE) ... and this interest is backed by nothing, forcing SOMEONE to default, and people WITH the money, then take REAL things in exchange for FAKE, ELECTRONICALLY CREATED DEBT MONEY .
Abstracting value as separate from real things makes it 'easier' to use, more 'interchangeable' in some ways, but distances people from the realities of what these numbers are really signifying... part of the current awakening is realizing, and taking responsibility for the consequences of our actions, and MINDFULLY ...'choosing' what we are willing to have, and not have, and what (and who) we are willing to sacrifice, or not sacrifice, in exchange for these things... breaking out of the self delusions we have collectively put ourselves under through things like advertising and a certain self-interested dishonesty getting out of hand... and moving back towards... living in harmony with others around us, and having gratitude for those things we must take from others, including the natural world, and being mindful, living more lightly and being careful upon what and how deeply we allow our footprints to scar the world around us... part of this is learning how to take care of ourselves, and the ones we care about, in ethical ways, as well...
Imo, at any rate.
DOWS: There have been many responses, but allow me to address this myself.
I just finished stating this in another thread, but because you question the application of institutional change, allow me to elaborate how such a change is not a call for an eradication of the institutional infrastructure, but a readdress in a long line of continual modifications which has been at the very core of every age of American societal growth.
We do not need to aim for a Utopia, but we can aim for a readdress of responsibility and regulation appropriate to the duty to the citizenship of the populous.
Here is what I would suggest in general terms:
I would suggest that the primary action of the Representatives should revolve around a redress of the Banking and Currency of the Unites States, especially those which altered in the Banking Act of 1935 onward, originating as a response to pressing issues of the depression era of America.
In league with this consideration, a readdress of the 1913 Federal Reserve Act, with a mind on the previous considerations of the function of centralized banking legislation in both the First Bank of the United States and the Second Bank of the United States prior to the 1913 Federal Reserve Act under President Wilson.
And to conduct both of these committees with a direct responsibility to the average citizen's mean degree of opportunity to attain financial liberty; if in lending, reliant yet only upon the exchange of short term discounted American dollars for the trade of lent dollars alone. By discounted it is implied that there is a forgiveness to the age of debt in which the financial institution has that is marginally greater than the individual citizen, so to facilitate the order of lending and earning accordingly and reasonably for both parties involved.
In effect, this is a change of perspective from asking how to solve the Federal debt crises to asking how to solve the Public debt crises.
The real problem with OWS is that some people say idiotic things like redistribute the wealth and pay off debt so it clouds the reasonable ideas like yours and a few others I have heard.
So, conservatives and G.O.P assholes say idiotic things ALL the time. And we never said anything about redistributing wealth. Thats what Faux News said. We just want to raise taxes back to where Ronald Regan had them in his first term, which was 50%. Now they are 35%. Your Faux News buddies have misled you. Regan had taxes at 50%. Nixon had them at 70%. Eisenhower had them at 90%. You have been VERY poorly informed.
I havent thought because many of the people on this site talk about redistributing the wealth...which is just plain idiotic. As for conservatives saying idiotic things, it doesn't matter because there idiotic things don't plan on entirely flipping the nation like I have heard from some of the extreme radical morons on this site.
i've never seen anyone talking about it. lolz. you're so misinformed.
Without saying much of what I determine as ignorant in gross coverage, I can offer the thoughts of a wiser man than myself on the matter of social movement and the trouble of a well informed public, Thomas Jefferson:
"...The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them."
If you are going to college only to get rich, then you will surely be disappointed. However, if you go to college to improve yourself and because you want to learn more. Then you can never lose. Learning is reward in itself.
Clearly no one can speak for the Occupy movement and exactly what people want, as it is an amorphous movement held together by a common anger against the abuses of Wall Street and other commercial interests that have run to an extreme level of greed. I would suspect, however, that your fear that the Occupy movement is largely made up of people who want to see no disparity in income -- who want everyone to make the same amount -- is completely unfounded.
I suspect most would have no problem with one person who contributes more to society making more than others who do not. The problem is that the disparity runs at a level and in a manner that is injust and outrageous. CEOs are paid millions in bonuses during the same year in which they bankrupt their companies and have to be bailed out by the taxpayers they fired (for which downsizing they got those bonuses).
Here is some of the ugly truth about the extreme level of income disparity in our society taken from an article I recently posted on my blog:
"Republicans seek to extend the Bush tax cuts indefinitely by preaching their gospel that adding more taxes to the rich is an injust form of taking and of redistributing wealth. In face of rising pressures against their tax ideology, conservative Republicans like to point out that, in the United States, the top twenty percent of the populace already pay eighty percent of the taxes!
"Sean Hannity recently argued against an Occupy Wall Street member by quoting a statistic that the top one percent of the population pay forty percent of all the income taxes gathered. In other words, the rich already pay more than their fair share, so keep your hands off their money! Pity the benevolent billionaires who are already forced to be generous to where it is nearly killing their hopes of a seventh mansion and a replacement for their private jet this year.
"The notion that the rich are already paying more than their fair share of taxes has been an ALMOST winning argument for extending rich tax cuts, but dig deeper into the numbers to find the truth (if you are brave enough to accept the truth when it flies in the face of your ideology): When you do, you find that the top one percent of the U.S. populace holds more than fifty percent of the nation’s private wealth. In other words, they make more money than all of the bottom 99% combined! So, if they are only paying forty percent of the income taxes, they are grossly UNDERpaying.
"This is WHY we actually do have a one percent and a ninety-nine percent as talked about by the Occupy Wall Street movement. We have a one percent that makes more than half of all the money made by individuals in the U.S. It also turns out that the top twenty percent make eight-five percent of the nation’s wealth. So, even the top twenty percent are clearly underpaying, as they should be paying a full eighty-five percent of the nation’s individual taxes just to be equal with the burden the middle class is shouldering.
"What sounded like a great argument from Hannity, Limbaugh and other conservatives turns out to be nothing but a half truth that really illustrates just how bad things are when you dig out the other half of the truth. While the rich have higher nominal tax brackets that help them appear to be paying progressively more, they also have vast tax breaks, exclusions, write-offs, credits — whatever you want to call them — that bring their final tax bill lower as a percentage of their income than people in the middle class. The full truth is so bad that people hearing the Hannity argument do not stop to think that maybe the top one percent are paying forty percent of the income tax because they are making more than fifty percent of all the income!
"Because the full truth is almost inconceivable, the half-truth argument has been winning. That the disparity in income is THAT bad just doesn’t occur to anyone — not even the average person in the Occupy Wall Street crowd. So, when Hannity makes the statement that the top one percent pay forty percent of the income taxes, it does not occur to them that he has really just told them how much the top one percent are currently underpaying because of the Bush tax breaks."
( http://thegreatrecession.info/blog/2011/11/bushwhacked-by-the-bush-tax-cuts-for-the-rich/ )
--Knave Dave
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Education is the solution to everything you are saying. Education allows your own self to understand how the world truly works and is. Once you understand this, fear disappears because you start answering some of life's bigger questions rather than, how do I make money?
Stay the course, you are already doing the right things :)
The reason to go to college is to learn. Expand your mind and experiences. Learn about the world before you came into being, learn skills you can use to become the best human possible. This is called self actualization, and it is the goal of this movement.
Do not fear. Read. Learn. Have fun doing so. The world will survive, as will you.
Hey useless kid, get re-informed about the movement. This isn't a socialist affair, it's about political and economic transparency.
goto college for knowledge not for a job.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Original poster said: "But what would be the point of going to college if everyone was going to make good money no matter what they do."
I'm not in favor of a utopian system where there is one level of pay for all.
But this comment begs to be answered.
The "point" of going to college is because you love to learn about the world and hopefully you want to learn something that is going to let you earn a living doing something you also love & feel called to.
The point of going to college is not so that you can make more than other people make.
And that should be the point of it right now, not in some mythical future where OWS brings equal pay to all.
Please tell me that I have this wrong: making a good living only matters to you if it means you make "more" than other people make?
Most everyone goes to college not to help the world but to help themselves because they want to succeed.
You are a selfish person. Do not ascribe your selfish motives to others.
In addition, I didn't say people went to college to help the world. I said they go to college for love of learning.
Lets be honest...there is no one who loves learning, there are only those who love learning because they know that knowledge is power. There is absolutely no reason to learn anything if you can't better your position in life with the knowledge that you learn. I love learning for what it gives me knowledge that is the power to succeed. If all the OWS people love learning so much maybe they should quit skipping school to protest and go learn.
Again. You are a selfish, empty person. Don't ascribe your selfish emptiness to others.
In response to: "Lets be honest...there is no one who loves learning"
does it sound familiar that the goal of socialists is that everyone is supposed to love learning and work together toward a common goal
If all you want to do is make money, don't take up a seat in a university that could be used by someone who really wants to be there.
Become an entrepreneur or a Wall St. trader. You don't need college for that.
And no, love of learning has nothing to do with socialism and "common goals" were not mentioned by me, so don't put words in my mouth.
If you really are a young person as you claim to be, I feel sorry that you were so misled by the adults around you.
The Forgotten Man .... http://www.mcnaughtonart.com/artwork/view_zoom/?artpiece_id=379
Scared of what? The possibility that our elected officials might represent the people who vote for them instead of the corporations that pay for their attack ads. This isn't about trying to redistribute wealth, it's about big money buying politicians to write the rules that make them richer. It's about re establishing a level playing field. It's about basic fairness. I'm sick of folks portraying this as some Communist inspired pipe dream. This is about fixing a democracy that's being undermined by powerful influences.
You see the problem about OWS is that every single protester I have heard from has different views some extreme some reasonable. I have heard many OWS people talk of redistributing wealth and erasing debt, your views are completely reasonable but others I have heard from are not.
In a democracy, reasonable and center will always eventually prevail - unless hijacked. The complicated discussions that lead up to such conclusions are both painful and joyful, and are signs of a vibrant, and self-healing democracy.
We're fighting against globalist corporatism, which is the natural next stage of fascism, which our grandfathers defeated in World War II. Some blame crony capitalism for our troubles but that is like looking at a tree and only seeing the leaves.
On the contrary it seems like OWS is promoting what the veterans of WWII fought to defeat.
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If your so opposed to socialism then why are you protecting the banks that took government money to prop up there failing business?
When did I protect banks...I'm protecting capitalism which does not necessarily mean that I agree with "protecting" banks but by no means should they be attacked. Also I don't think that you realize what would have happened if those banks did fail.
I know what would happen if banks failed,(fubar)but I know that it is socialist choosing who gets to go on and who has to die. you displayed an argument of zero sum or are you okay with socialism in some places and not in others?When have we had a true industrial capitalist society where people who screw up go broke without a safety net?...and how did that work out?
are you calling me a fubar or acknowledging that if the banks closed it would be fubared
Why would I call you a fubar? how is that even logically in that setting?
Ok just checking
capitalism is the invisible hand pulling the market there will be winner's and loser's it can't change the outcomes.
No capitalism isn't the invisible hand...Capitalism committed suicide a while back..They are still trying to find the body...
We have crony capitalism and the Federal Reserve (invisible hand) picks the winners...that's Wall Street all the time!
I'm making the point that we don't have true capitalism anymore. I don't oppose any ism as long as it's not loaded game.
True...If I started out with everything, and then made a system around the idea of keeping it forever, even after my death...Then the system is rigged from the start..
Maybe it's time for humanism..
What scares me is that people like you exist; people that are more interested in wealth than people and fairness.
I doubt that the country is going to become classless, I think the hope is that there would be a smaller difference between the rich and the poor, so that even those in the lower class would have their basic needs met. As it is, with unemployment rate so high, many have been out of a job for years. Then the jobs that people can get, due to the over-abundance of workers, they are able to pay less since so many need a job. These minimum wage jobs are hardly able to even pay for an apartment, let alone other living expenses.
But I guess none of this matters to you, just the idea of being at the top of the ant pile is what has caught your eye. Well, you will see what happens. You may be one who is swept under the rug in a poor economy, unable to find a job after graduation.
America is the epitome of fairness...thats why people can make it to the top because of their hard work and intelligence. I'm not going to be at the bottom because if I can't find a job I will keep trying rather than heading over to blame to government and start protesting.
It certainly is not the epitome of fairness.
You are born into a family and from there it is unequal from the start. Some are born into rich families, and some into poor ones. Some are born into bodies that are considered beautiful by society, and others are not. Some are going to have an easy life from the start because their families money will always be there to protect them, and others don't have this.
Then you go into school years. The poor and "ugly" end up wearing less appealing clothes, perhaps get harassed. It affects their self esteem. Then this affects their drive and faith in themselves. Now it is time for college. Some can't afford college. While there are some grants and loans, it actually doesn't necessarily cover everything, depending on where you go. And not everyone can go, some have to start working in high school to help feed the family. Some can't afford the commute, some have family residences too far away from a school and no money to relocate. Many things can happen.
Then they go out into the workforce. The beautiful get jobs easier than those that are less appealing, it is just how it happens. Some jobs even are obvious about it, like what is it, I forget but there is a clothing company that actually photographs applicants as part of their interview process. Then also, those that are from rich families, have connections and self esteem so they get good starter jobs to start up their resume (as it is hard to get an office job or more professional level job without having one on your resume already)
The fact is not everyone is going to be at the top, some will have to be at the bottom. The concept is that the bottom should at least be tolerable and livable, because just by fact there will have to be people at the bottom if there is a bottom middle top system. The system should ensure livable conditions for the lower class, because in all honestly life isn't fair and no one deserves to be starving.
You can try all you want, but all that has to happen is for someone to do a hit and run and scar you and ruin your looks so no one will hire you. Then you will be one of those toothless messed up poor people on the corner begging for change. The fact is anyone could end up at the bottom through a bad twist of fate, no one is immune.
It would be more humane and fairer if everyone's right to basic living needs was guaranteed, as we all are humans and have a claim to this earth and life.
Obviously personal traits and circumstances will have an effect and how much of a chance someone has to succeed. At least there is no law restricting who can and cannot achieve success.
The laws are unwritten, but they are still there, and people still suffer unfairness through them. My point still stands.
so the hundreds of thousands of people who have become wildly successful, say, in the tech boom of the last 30 years who started with nothing but had a great idea that made people's lives better...those people really don't exist?
steve wozniak isn't a real person? bill gates isn't a real person? mark zuckerberg isn't a real person?
how in the world did these unconnected nobodies do it, given your ridiculous and absurd notions of how things "really" work?
could it be...you're wrong?!?
Some people do break the norm, but these people aren't representative of everyone. There are definite trends in hiring and in how people develop and move through life. It is complicated, and some people do get a lucky break or are very intelligent and figure out a way to make a lot of money, but there are also many people who don't make it regardless of how hard they may want it or try. There are things that hold some people back, where other's are able to excel more easily due to their advantages at birth. Anything is possible, but it doesn't mean it is probable for everyone.
NO ONE is representative of everyone!
the rest of what you say...what kind of point do you think you are making here?
life isn't always fair. is this news to someone? or just to people brought up playing games with no score kept, being told 1+1=3 if they really want it to, and whose self-esteem and the coddling thereof eclipsed reality.
it seems like you want or expect equal outcomes rather than equal opportunity. is that correct? if not, what is it you are saying? seems vague and obvious. some do well, some don't. in similarly profound news, water is wet and the sky is blue. wild, huh?
If you notice, you came into a conversation I was having with someone else. My points were focused in response to his claim that this country is the epitome of fairness, and I was responding to that notion. Then you responded to oppose my notion so I was further explaining.
My original post was aimed at the fact that many people are not able to have their basic needs met, or are not able to even find a job in this economy. My point is that if we were really as civilized as we claim to be we would not have so many people living in poverty when we have the resources to ensure that wasn't how it is. The fact is life isn't fair and in a top middle bottom system there is always going to be someone at the bottom, and the bottom shouldn't be as bad as it is.
"...the bottom shouldn't be as bad as it is."
ok, that I agree with. but how much more does society have to do until it starts to expect a little bit more from those at the bottom?
the disconnect is that many people see that bottom position as temporary but the left wing political class sees it as a constant. I was at the bottom for a couple of years, made sound decisions and didn't try to live above my means, and now I am nowhere near the bottom. I refuse to think there is anything special about me, so if I can do it, why can't anyone else? the reason is poverty is subsidized, and one of the simplest rules of economics is that if you want more of something, subsidize it. in our situation, the political left has no intention of expecting anything from those at the bottom, they simply want to exchange free goodies for votes. well, we see what 40-50 years of that has done, haven't we? generations on assistance, little to no work ethic, and political correctness run amok makes those who question this "heartless" or "racist." it is a disaster. people like to say these programs started with good intentions. I no longer believe that. I think it is pretty obvious this was the idea all along, create a beholden and permanent lower class and trade goodies for votes (political power).
Well, the people at the bottom, working 8 an hour, are working! Have you been to a McDonalds, Jack in the Box, etc lately? Those workers are running around, multi-tasking like crazy. Doing more work than many people in offices are doing. It is a different type of work, but I have worked in both fast food and office work (law office as a supervisor, among other positions) and I would say that the fast food was more work if it was a busy day. All the juggling, the rude customers, etc. These jobs should pay enough for someone to survive off them. If you think about it, someone is always going to have to be at the bottom flipping the burgers, unless they come up with some robot customer service machine to do it.
I think a major part of the issue is the economy sucks and rent is so high that many are not able to find a job due to high unemployment or afford their basic necessities once they have one of the low paying minimum wage positions.
And those at the bottom working 8 hours are just like I was. I never saw my entry-level crap pay job as where I would be until I retired. Why do you assume that those people do? Why do you assume that is it for them?
Honestly, you just proved the point I was making. The left sees the low-end of the employment spectrum as some sort of indentured servitude that no one can rise out of. Non-leftists ("normal" for lack of a better term) see it as step one on the ladder.
"rent is so high" - oh, please, then live somewhere else! I'd like to live in hawaii, but the houses cost too much. boo-f'n-hoo. are you going to march for me because I can't live wherever I want since I cannot afford it? you can't be serious.
I do agree with you that is sucks when you work full time and cannot afford to live, but that usually means you have kids and expenses you shouldn't have given your earning potential. who is at fault in this situation? the individual who made a piss-poor choice (and too often subjects a child to his idiocy) and the govt for taxing the shit out of everything that moves, driving the cost of everything up, including rent!
despite this, it seems ows is not pushing for more self-reliance and self-respnsibility and is asking the govt to take in more money and give away more free shit. the ows solution is about as ass-backwards as possible. what ows wants will make what they are moaning about WORSE.
Some people work at those bottom jobs for years. Some don't have access to education, there are a lot of catch 22's in life. I have run into people that want to go to school, but since they can't save money since they don't make enough as it is, they can't afford it. And then sometimes it is a matter of transportation, if they can't even get to the school because there isn't public transit they are also shit out of luck.
There are some options, though they aren't feasible for everyone, and some people do move to try to find better opportunities. But even moving costs hundreds of dollars to ship your stuff and pay for the bus or plane ticket. If you are also taking furniture, that figure is more in the thousands. So if someone is working paycheck to paycheck it is hard to save up that kind of money.
It isn't just having kids that cause people to become stuck, but other things that are beyond your control. I actually have a friend that is caught in a catch 22 right now herself. She is on the federal government's health insurance as she has a transplanted liver(She didn't do anything to cause her own liver to fail, it just was faulty) and will die without monthly appointments to adjust her expensive immuno-suppressant pills. She can't live without the health insurance, but by the government regulations she will be kicked off of health insurance if she gets a job that pays over 700 a month. So she is working part time, and most jobs that offer health benefits only do so after 3 months of working there. So she can't go three months without meds (she went one month without meds once and the liver died and she had to have another operation and get another liver). So she can't get full time work experience on her resume to work up to a good paying job or she will be kicked off the health insurance and likely die. And even if she was offered a 12 an hr full time job with benefits after 3 months she can't go 3 months without insurance.
A lot of things happen in life that can cause someone to get "stuck" for sometimes years working at low paying jobs. It is sometimes just luck that allows them to get out of those positions, maybe just applying and finding the right boss that is willing to give someone a chance. But well, these breaks don't happen for everyone, and they don't necessarily happen fast.
It is very hard to find a job these days with the economy the way it is. When I was looking for one almost 2 years ago one place responded to me saying they got over 500 applicants for the one position! I have also heard of McDonalds jobs getting 300+ applicants for a single opening. So that person that has no office experience and is trying to move up from fast food is going to have a tough time going against a few hundred applicants that actually do have experience. And worse, employers are often asking in the job add that you send over your salary history, so basically they can pay you as low as they can, or judge you based on how much you were paid.
I think a lot of people in the OWS movement are upset about the economy and the poor job market. Big businesses outsource jobs so then there are less in the country, and then they are also just cutting a lot of employees. It seems the country needs to have a working economic situation so that anyone who is able to work could get a job. But as it is unemployment is 12% where I am (and that is a lower figure than the truth, as there are also a lot of people working part time, looking for full time, that would make the total percent of people looking for work higher.)
And I haven't seen a unified OWS solution. I have seen some threads mentioning 1. wanting to get rid of the law that allows corporations to have the rights of human beings (basically businesses hide behind corporations, they do illegal things that would get a real person thrown in jail, and they only get a sanction often because the people behind it are hiding behind the title of corporation. You can't arrest a corporation.). Then 2. to get rid of the law that allows tax breaks for outsourcing jobs. 3. Reconsider the taxation method. 4. health care for all. I haven't seen people saying they just want a free check, I have mostly been seeing people saying they want the economy to be running correctly and for life to be livable for those at the bottom.
tl;dr
It becomes more difficult to jump the income gap everyday, but it is still possible in the cases of extreme creative innovation (though you still have to be able to have patent and start-up money). Although there are still pioneers that are not singly profit focused (remember Tim Berners-Lee?).
"It becomes more difficult to jump the income gap everyday"
during a recession, sure. but I know plenty of people who did well in the most recent economic boom and got out before the housing market fell into the shitter. on the other hand, I know people who currently make more (much more) than they ever have and that is simply because the right jobs came along at the right time under unlikely circumstances and people who are ambitious, hard-working and responsible can still do very well, regardless of the economy.
point is, all these absolutist statements (that are always negative) are ridiculous because there are approximately 180 million different working person's experiences in this country. sure, more are worse now due to the recession, but that doesn't mean everything is always worse and will continue to decline. extreme cynicism like this cannot be taken seriously. you end up in a mental prison of your own making worrying about what other people have.
I agree that in the right circumstances, it can be possible for a hard-working , ambitious responsible person to do well. The fact that we let the legislators in office signing away our futures is the only real problem. If you don't like the banks, don't use them. It's the government that grovels at the knees of the lobbyists. That's where the action needs to take place. I'm not sure everything will continue to decline and positive thinking is important. However, in the current political system, our rights will continue to decline and more corruption will put billions of taxpayer dollars to nefarious uses.
yep.
step 1: register as an independent, do not send money to any party or candidate, and vote out EVERY incumbent
both parties suck. the difference in how much either sucks is irrelevant. it's like choosing between a slap and a smack. who cares? they both suck, that are both bought and paid for, and they both deserve to be dumped into the toilet of history.
Agreed.
So does mine.
Your point, that you want nothing to change, doesn't stand in any moral sense. And your point, that this country is the epitome of fairness, certainly doesn't stand in any sense.
The problem is that there is really nothing that OWS can do to help with fairness.
Well, I think the idea is it is at least raising awareness about the unfairness. With that awareness, maybe more people would become more active in change. People are presenting ideas as well in these forums on how things could be brought about. Economics is a confusing system but there are definite unfair practices (such as doing away with the ability for politicians being allowed to accept donations from corporations, corporations having "personhood" status and as such allowing them to do illegal things with little recourse, remove the incentives for outsourcing jobs, etc.)
In all honesty for things to become much fairer there would have to be a global movement. A lot of economics has to do with international business, and as it is now a lot of corporations in the US have factories in other countries and exploit workers there. Business like rebook and Nike have even been caught with child labor camps set up in third world countries.
But well, likely these things wont be addressed for a long time. I guess the best we can do is start here and do what we can.
It was at one time..more fair..You had a better shot...No more...
Just because no one at OWS has made it to the top doesn't mean that no one can.
I'm saying that it's less likely..that's all. I grew up in a land of opportunity, that is no more...It's harder for people just getting started today.
So what is your suggestion to fix it?
I hate to say that nothing short of a revolution will fix it...Nothing...Society is collapsing in on itself...Read this article it sort of explains it:
http://www.naturalmedicine.com/blogs/wondering/2011/11/20/how-to-respond-to-the-aweful-truth/
There is something bigger going on here than meets the eye..and TPTB are steering most of humanity into a ditch...If you look at humanity from a certain perspective, as human capital to be used and exploited or just "tools" to be used...We have too many of them to continue under the same paradigm..
The paradigm needs to change, but the elite don't want that..So they, have other plans...and it ain't pretty.
What is the root of wealth? Property not Wall St, stocks are merely representative of property. For all of Americas greatness and freedom where do the greatest inequalities lie? Property, the right to a place to sleep and land/resource to provide cultivate/manipulate as deemed fit to sustain life. What is the greatest challenge constant and draining on an individuals economy? property be it a home a tent or a rent. Who is doing well right now? Banks and though you may have not noticed landlords. Who owns all of the property? Right now the well to do and the banks. Who gets screwed in the whole property game? The poor and middle incomes. Who profits from the whole property game? The banks especially. Who artificially inflated then popped the property markets? The banks and the government. Who lost their property? Millions. How much housing is out there? Millions +. What is the symbol of occupy? Public parks? Wtf. Occupy the foreclosures and bring attention to the root source of inequality- property.
So what exactly are you suggesting. I hope not no private ownership of property because that is the exact definition of what this whole thing is socialism.
To the contrary I do not ask that anyone advocate anarchism. Or in converse Socialism. Rather all this can be done as a combination of all things. Including the law. Precedence exists for Homesteading and adverse possession in the annals of US law history. These could be rewritten to reflect the times if that is the way people chose to go. I am no leader just a lowly individual. I believe that the people should experiment and find what works best for them not me. Ultimately people will have to decide for themselves what is right. In the meantime a little good old squatting (as old as whoring) will give the people time to gather their wits about them, experiment with all of those things they feel should be be it a way of life, counter economy, sustainable living, organics, and forms of organization. You can't just stumble out of a long period in a dark closet and expect to be able to see clearly in the bright light. Anyway whether we face it or not property is the root of inequality as well as heel of the boot.
So what is it that you are hoping the protest will accomplish.
Imagine the logistics of evicting 100,000's of foreclosed homes that no one is really sure who owns anyway. millions evicted- millions take property back. All I want to see is a moment of divine justice in my lifetime.
The problem is people buy things they can't afford...it's their own fault.
The problem is the game they are playing is rigged. It always has been- the tools have been the same to keep people in penury through monopolization of property.
What kind of a weak redundant textbook scarecrow is that anyway.
Government in its current form is what you should fear! Everything else is trivial.
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Thank you. Finally, a rational argument.
I would recommend that all OWS protesters read this post or something like it before they go out and clog the streets.
Thanks, thats pretty much what I was hoping would happen. Feel free to elaborate on it or send it around. If I had more time I would have actual wrote it more professionally but I pretty much just wrote out my thoughts.
You're very wise, and you made some very rational points. You're already ahead of the game, so good luck in college!
occutards: how does it feel to be out-thought by a kid in high school?
You just made my night with that term and also thanks for the support.
He's 40 if he's a day.
riiiight...must be another conspiracy.
Well, yes, you are young. And it would appear your parents are too if they have brainwashed you into believing that only the intelligent and talented deserve a life. Everyone deserves a life. And by the way, the reason for going to college is to contribute positively toward your society and family using your talents in the best way. It's not about getting to the top. There's nothing there anyway. Under capitalism, not everyone has the shot of achieving the American dream, which I thought was a decent, happy existance, not wealth. What's individual wealth got to do with anything? I would say that when so many children in America go to bed hungry and therefore not in the best cogitive state, they definitely do not have the same shot at happiness that you do. I also can't see the point of a government that doesn't assist everyone to have the basic necessities of life, healthcare, decent food, and shelter and a job to do. These are the bricks and mortar of life, and this is the American Dream. Why do you deserve any more than anyone else? You don't. You just happen to be born in the right place at the right time. My ideal is that everyone is flat-taxed, and the government takes that money and distributes it to government run institutions that ensure everyone has a basic home, a college education or trade, food, and access to quality healthcare. If people want a big house in Beverly Hills, they can work harder in their capitalist small business. Maybe the standard will be that everybody has a big house in Beverly Hills. The People will take responsibility to ensure the government does provide the basics. You are keeping the bar much too low. I want to raise it. Your brand of capitalism is to throw everything up in the air and let God sort it out. I worked hard for 46 years and lost everything I worked for to Wall Street and government mismanagement and deregulation. I'm sure ready for a change.
Your idea is actually great but that doesn't seem to be what OWS is for. A flat tax and then using the money better is really a perfect idea and if everyone would promote that idea rather than attacking the rich then I bet it would actually happen because that would benefit the rich and poor alike. Spread that idea and maybe something useful can actually come out of OWS.
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Haha Chief, you are the most ignorant adult I have ever heard. Your so jealous of others success that you simply say they performed gay sexual acts to get to the top... you are an idiot. There is absolutely a way to work yourself to the top as long as you have the smarts and determination to go along with the work. Also im not sure if you realized that you insinuated that you only hire people that give you blow jobs or allow you to have anal sex with them.
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Canada, Norway, Sweden, France... etc. The USA is by far not the best place in the world to live. Hopefully you learn some critical thinking in University. You have no idea what you're talking about. Anyone that understands what started the recession knows it was fraud, and SOCIALISM for the rich from start to finish. Also, don't even try to tell me everyone has a chance in America. Unless you are born into a certain class of family; or have about a 150 IQ you are hosed. What a peice of high school level crap essay.
Oh, and I hold a BCommerce with Distinction BTW. Idiot.
First off it's not like I put effort into the "essay" I simply wrote out thoughts hoping to convince a couple of liberal idiots that they are liber idiots. Also do you think that they don't have rich and poor in Canada, Norway, Sweden or France because they do. Everyone does have a chance in America but doesn't it make sense to you that the people with higher IQs do end up being successful.
You've come to the wrong place if you're looking to discuss the American dream. These folks are anarchists and communists, or just plain a-holes. Don't worry too much about all this. The world will keep turning and I'm sure you'll do well. We should all do our best to improve the world but not everyone thinks that means you have to burn everything to the ground first.
Oh im not looking to discuss the American dream with these idiots who want to destroy, it im just trying to shut these idiots up...hopefully they will all head back to their parents house for the winter.
DontOccupyWallSt - the American dream is alive and well for those willing to work for it, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
It's alive and well and I'm just hoping it stays alive and well at least for the rest of my life.
Good essay, but you are to young to know and to have real life experience of what is going on in this country. You have to walk in my shoes to feel and see how things really are. I lived under Comunism for 20 years and I didn't like it. I risked my life to come here. I love this country but in the last 35+ years I've been here in this country has changed a lot and it's not for the better. We need a major overhaul of our system / society in order to survive and remain civilized. Capitalism was hijacked and turned into "Greedalism". The OWS (99%) people movement is on the right track, just like George Washington was in those days. We need visionaries and we need a changes before it's too late and things escalate into a revolution. Perhaps we could try a democracy based on "Fairalism" or "Equalism". Just a thought, good luck for all of us.
Good cause you'd have never gotten into my business school with crap like that. Next, you don't even know what the academic word "liberal" means. Further, I live in Canada, and while we have rich and poor the gap is much, much smaller; and we don't call the economically far more efficient single payer health care; and relative lack student debt bondage socialism. We also didn't bail out banks.
And no it doesn't make sense that people with higher IQs get dozens of times more because we won the genetic lottery. I am in the top .7% for IQ, and education. You think its perfectly fine to subjugate lesser minds? Once again, you have no clue what "liberals" originally stude for. And all hail the sociopath!
Ok so if you live in Canada why do you care about the protests? I do understand the definition of liberals but more importantly I understand what the word politically means. Also if you have what it takes to get to the top then why shouldn't you get there, IQ is not all it takes to get to the top but I believe that it's rightful for people with all the right skills and traits to get to the top.
A) We have Occupy here; admittedly with far less just cause.
B) Because I'm not a sociopath who thinks it's ok for the other 99.3% to be my subjects. I don't think its ok for kids to go hungry, the sick to go without care, or the mentally ill to end up in prison.
If you don't agree than God help America, and we socialist Canadians will supply China after you fall.
So you truly are an extreme socialist that took it upon yourself to come from Canada to try to change America into a socialist nation...and im the sociopath? also im not entirely sure that you know the meaning of the word
How did someone from Canada become such an expert on US upward mobility? My husband comes from a poor family and put himself through both Medical and Grad school. He was the first in his family to even graduate from college. My husband makes a very good living and we enjoy a wonderful life. Anybody willing to work hard can be successful in this country.
Thank you so much for posting this...these morons think just because they can't work hard enough to succeed no one can.
The OCW movement just makes me sick. As a former Marine who has traveled to over 20 countries in South America, Asia, the Middle East, and Europe. I have seen tyranny, oppression, depression, theft, revolution, war, communism, socialism, and the truly poor. OCW supporters do not seem to be educated or knowledgeable about what they are standing up for, or who they are standing next to or with. Though our system of government and capitalism is not perfect, and freedom allows for corruption as well as ignorance to rear their ugly heads, our government is the best and most successful option in the world.
We must remember that for the most part, Business Owners, Politicians, Laborers, Upper Class, Middle Class, and the unfortunate are all good people. To stand and say that mistakes by our government, banks, and capitalism is the reason for, or justifies revolution or a conversion to socialism, is a demonstration of ignorance. Look at the labor conditions in other countries, look at the continuous failure and oppression due to socialist policies, look at history…..
If you use facts and figures to support your rhetoric, if you really understand history, economics, and business, if you just travel outside of the United States and experience or observer what you are asking for, you will see we are the richest country in the world that takes care of its people better than any other. There is no place that has the freedoms, entitlements, opportunities, labor laws and conditions, and higher educational system like the US. There is no place like home, if you don’t like it here and you believe revolution, violence, and anarchy is the answer to change, you are un-American in my eyes. If you want freedom to explore and live your Socialist, Communist, Marxists ideologies….. Leave….. Go abroad to those countries who will give you what you seek…. If you love America and are proud to be an American you can start your own business, run for office, work with your government to change laws and policies, change jobs if you think you don’t get paid enough or don’t like their policies, make good choices for your future, be responsible for taking on too much personal debt, educate yourself on investments so you don’t make bad decisions, stop or start voting for policies or people to help control spending and create an environment that allows entrepreneurs to prosper, help your neighbors, strive to make positive changes. As a country we have lost our loyalty to our Country, to God, and to our neighbors. We have an entitlement mentality that wants something for nothing and thinks we are owed something. This is not what the foundation of our country was based on. The US used to be the 99% where we helped and stood by each other allowing people to make their own choices….. Life is about choices. In the past when things got tough, the country banded together and created new opportunities together. Are you part of the problem or the solution? Do you love being an American and believe in our system of government?
Maybe you've been brainwashed too. The Love It Or Leave It idea is what is un-American. Where did this idea come from? The American ideal, even the traditional one, is about change, improvement and justice. If you are not watchful, anything bad that has happened in the rest of the world can happen here too, don't think it can't - especially with the police departments buying up conventional weapons at discount from the Pentagon and with the blatant repression of rights that happened at UC Davis recently . You can't just assume your leaders have your best interests in mind or that they even know what they are doing. It's people like you who repress the tradition and right of civil disobedience while you are in a lock-step to the tune of the government. I'm grateful there is such a program as Social Security (which I paid into) and Medicare, but there are so many countries that give their citizens more and better, don't cause other countries grief, and don't call Social Security (which I paid into) an entitlement. Get it? I PAID for it! It's not an entitlement. If you are now paying for my Social Security, you can thank your government which has borrowed from it to fund wars and cover its own financial mismanagement on a number of levels. this is theft. I don't like America as it is, and want to see it improved. I believe in the "American" system of govenment, I just don't think the government does. By the way, I'm not a socialist or communist. And, I do appreicate when our soldiers go to war to protect us. However, since WWII, I don't think there has been a single war that has been fought to protect us. Wars should be fought to protect and incur personal (of your own society) and universal justice and for no other reason. I don't believe in pre-emptive war. That's the height of nonsense. Also, I'm not a member of OWS, because It looks like a motley crew right now, and I don't know what it stands for or if it even knows. I do know that things are very wrong in America. Talk about entitlement, why do Americans think they are more entitled to the best than anyone else? Why does it fight wars to "protect our way of life" or to "protect our interests?" Isn't killing other people or installing despots so that we can live this way the height of an entitlement mentality?
Wow, another Right Wing talking head here! Bravo! Talking like the way GWB convinced people that Hussein was linked to 9/11 and WMD in Iraq so Americans could invade a country just like that!! BTW, did God tell Bush to invade Iraq and bomb innocent millions of Iraqis?
You are awesome and I agree with everything you said 100%.
Dear kid - I found your post very refreshing. Do not despair. America is stronger than you think. It's people are better than you know. There are sheepdogs standing guard whose mission is to defend the Constitution and the liberty and freedom we have been blessed with.
It is easy to become overwhelmed when you see what appears to be something new and threatening on the horizon. Stand firm. We've been dealing with anarchists, communists, socialists, and malcontents for decades - since before you were born. We are not new at this and we will not let you down.
Go to school. Study. Prepare. Educate yourself. Think for yourself. Many college professors will try to indoctrinate you into their anti-Americanist leftist philosophies. Think critically. Examine what they say and listen to your heart. You know what is right and good. Follow your instincts. You know, I can tell, that America is this world's last best hope for freedom. When the time is right, you will take your place among its defenders.
Until then, this sheepdog, and others like me, will keep Lady Liberty's light on for you.
Be strong and of good courage.