Forum Post: I'm for Resource-based Economy
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 30, 2011, 12:29 p.m. EST by humanprogress
(55)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
A WORLD WITHOUT AUTHORITIES (ONLY COORDINATORS)
- AN ECONOMY WITHOUT MONEY
- NO RELIGION THAT INSTIGATES AND PERPETUATES FEAR & INEQUITIES
translates to.... No more Wall Street + No Hunger + No Robbery + No Politics
- Better Environment + Better Education + Less Waste
- Stress Relief + Healthier People
In a resourced-based economy, no one will be left behind as there are enough resources for all of us. There will be a decent home for everyone; enough food, clothing, education and healthcare --- all the basic needs to live with dignity.
We will only play (not work in slavery) by living our passions that serve humanity and do some volunteer work to sustain our new society.
There will no longer be fear of not having enough and the need for intended annihilation of business competitors in order to survive.
NOT A DREAM ----- WE CAN DO IT! WE HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE THE WORLD TO A BETTER PLACE FOR US AND OUR FUTURE DESCENDANTS AND THAT TIME IS NOW WHEN THE 99% STANDS IN SOLIDARITY AND THE WORLD IS WATCHING!!!
Basically, you have not said anything. Tell me how economic calculation would work, how pricing and supply would work, how time-value would be determined, how all the mechanisms of an economy would work when translated into your suggested system of a resource based economy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
No price mechanism required. Prices simply distort the value of products based on what the supplier can get away with. e.g. brand name clothing selling for 1000s
Time-value in terms of work is unnecessary because most of the occupations are automated. There is no use of money as a form of distribution nor access restriction to goods/services. So many people will suddenly have a great deal of excess time on their hands to do with it as they please, hence more volunteers fulfilling the few necessary roles that remain.
Much of the economy is explained in the video link above.
If not, here's an extended version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqWvFqgMhko&feature=share
Oh, it's the Zeitgeist Movement.....jeeze, how many times must that be debunked at a new age pseudo-science religion. Again, the movie tells you nothing about how economic calculation would be possible under such a system. Nor does it or can it address the necessity for a pricing structure and how pricing structures are determinate factors in supply and movement of products. Nor does it nor can it address the necessity of time value, which, btw, has nothing to do with the hours someone works, but the time value of either money or in the case of a barter society, some product that is needed or wanted now as opposed to later. Actually, it doesn't address anything that would give it actual credibility from an economic perspective.
The Zeitgeist Movement also fails to make a very important distinction between money and currency, the two are different things and while money is an asset value, currency can be anything, including worthless paper with a image printed on it to make people think that one slip of paper is more valuable than another slip of paper.
Again, you cannot, based on the assumptions put forth by the Zeitgeist Movement that it is possible to eliminate items of persistent value which can be predictably exchanged just by doing away with the printing of money, or somehow basing an economy on resources as a means of exchange.
Now, one of the odder things about the movement is the fact that they claim that only 3% of the population is necessary to maintain their system, what happens to the other 97% of the population if they are not needed. I mean why keep them around if only 3% of the world's population can maintain such a wonderful system? The unneeded population therefore would prove to be excessive weight on the 3%, would they not, perhaps the 97% should be exterminated if that is the case.
There is actually no advantage to the proposals of the Zeitgeist, none, and besides they are completely unworkable in the real work of economics.
Perhaps instead you should read Human Action by von Mises to get a better grasp of economic realities and human actions based upon their needs, desires and even their fears.
Links and explanations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKpau1Dx6DQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUbBgkE5v7Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9vRuhTLpFE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf0ZMa2re4Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtEK1-zjdME
Believe me, I have already seen them, already read the proposals and they do not answer nor can they answer the questions I have put forth. Neither can you answer those questions. The reason they can't be answered is that Zeitgeist has no answer for them.
No I do not believe you have seen them because you make assumptions and jump to conclusions about how the system will work without attempting to understand how it could work. You've closed off your perspective before attempting to understand.
Your questions have been answered in the links provided but since you don't care to look I'll attempt to address them here.
NASA doesn't utilize 'pricing structures' for its astronauts in space. There is simply an inventory of what is available and how goods can sustainably be consumed. Again, a pricing system is simply a distortion of the supposed value the supplier can get away with selling. e.g. destroy crops, pollute water, restrict access and the price of these goods go up.
Give an example of how time value would become a problem when there is no money involved.
The point of using currency is to appease people that believe they are owed some form of value for their efforts. And this makes sense only if these people are coerced/forced to perform tasks they dislike. Hence, the necessity to automate labor and allow volunteers to perform the remaining tasks necessary for society to function. There are gift economies which work just fine because members agree to collaborate on the mode of distribution. A RBE is superior because it also utilizes technology to minimize the amount of menial work necessary. A RBE won't function without collaboration from a majority of it's members.
As for those items with persistent value (I assume you refer to collector's items), they won't threaten the entire society. The question needed to be asked here is exactly why are these items coveted? If it's because of the extremely high monetary value associated to it (price distortion) then it will lose it's value in a RBE. If it's something of sentimental value then there's little to worry about such items unless the person also has a tendency to hoard to the extreme.
As you mentioned the city would only require 3% of the population to work at any given time. So people may rotate in and out of such positions at will. It's not as if 3% of the population are forced to do all the work. Also, the rest of the population aren't automatically considered dead weight. On the contrary, having a ton of people with free time available to research, create forms of art, entertain, and update the current functions of society will advance society much quicker. Technology is what advances society, not profit/money.
Money itself is a rationalization for inequality and this inequality can only be reinforced through coercive, manipulative, fear-driven, and forceful tactics. It relies on competition and completely falls apart/loses its function when unforeseen forms of collaboration develop (aka monopolies, corporatist government).
A RBE may not be perfect, nor does it claim to be but it addresses many of the root causes of the issues we face in our system.
Besides, can you give one example of an incorruptible economic system that uses money?
If you're trying to get everyone to give up their religious beliefs, good luck. As much as I love the idea of a resource based economy, I see NO reason to bring religion into this discussion. It is going to kill the idea.
True, in a rationale world where people could think with some clarity, this wouldn't be an issue. What good does it do to believe in things that obviously cannot be so? I believe science is the only tool for understanding reality, even a God would have to be based in 'a' reality, thus subject to the terms of reality. But this is just my little human conceit derived from my ignorance - I have not even a tangible idea of what reality is, much less that it must be dictated by A or B.
So my big issue here, how can these people be so utterly ignorant in the face of a "reality" that doesn't seem to agree with them. At the very least they should be highly skeptical, and leave God on the backburner until he presents sufficient evidence. But most do not, they block out the things that our only reliable tool for understanding our situation reveals... how can any progress be had we people think in such small terms?
just "enough"?
not plentiful?
a house in the mountains with a swimming pool and private 9 hole golf course, one each for me and my children?
Me too and this post describes it really well
an economy based on resources not jobs
You just better hope there's never no more drug rehabilitation or psychologists. You are a complete moonbat.
Yes, you are for a resourced based economy. You using the resources of others.
Ha, moonbat, I love that word
Yes!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqWvFqgMhko&feature=share
Let's plan for a strategical implementation of a resource-based economy!
If you already know that a resource-based economy is the perfect solution to transform a utopian dream into reality, then you should already know how to implement it. In other words, if you haven't figured out the implementation yet, it means you're just talking untested theory. Perhaps you should start by testing the idea in a small neighborhood before attempting to shove it down the throats of a whole nation. Why doesn't OWS attempt to implement this in their camp? They could start by giving their $500,000 dollars to the homeless.
My invitation to plan is only for an open discussion, not necessarily saying that I don't have some kind of a plan. Believe me, I HAVE IDEAS. I'm a good planner and strategist but I don't want to sound like a dictator.
That's fair. Ideas are always good and welcome, they are the seed.
http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project/aims-a-proposals
A city is a big place, but if there are 10,000 or more OWS campers why not use them as testers? We just need to find a vacated city to test with.
How get them hold hammer and nails is the question? They could start build shelters and farms right there where they are now. Its easy. You hold hammer other hand and nails other hand.
A RBE requires technology and collaboration to function so a minimum threshold for both would be required.
And if people are forced into positions where they are performing labor they dislike, problems will arise. That's the whole reason the monetary system exists today. Disagreements exist about who gets what based on people performing tasks they dislike.
Automation is a necessity for this post-scarcity society and many facilities must be robust enough to anticipate problems so they are designed as self-maintaining as possible.
Without technology it is just a commune.
Specific functions however can be tested within OWS.
e.g. Using direct democracy for subjective issues. Restraining and preventing violence without force. Creating transparency in the decision making process.
It's very interesting, let's get some OWS protesters to test the idea! I still remember how Plato described various political systems in the Republic and they didn't all turn out like he had planned when they were put into practice.
Think of it as a gift economy with a strong emphasis on technology/science.
I like gifts. It's nice to get stuff for free.
We can now work toward rbe. Tests would not tell yet what kind rbe would be because it is not global.
Then you should tell the Venus project to stop their plans to make a test city.
We can work toward rbe i said. Communities is one way to get toward rbe, it brings people together. These need also be self-sustained with farms so we can focus to create rbe instead of hurry job for get money for food.
Coordinators? Who would these fabulous coordinators be don't tell me....if they don't like me they take my resources away and I die. Human nature is not soo sharing get a history book man.
100% Reserve lending only (no more bailouts, no need for the fed, no manipulation of interest rates).
Government issued bank account for every citizen with an amount deposited yearly reflecting a per capita percentage of the desired yearly growth of the overall money supply (probably will be several thousand a year for every citizen over 18). The reason you need to do this is because with 100% reserves banking, you need to replace the old mechanism of using fractional-reserve lending for the overall money supply to grow.
The account will be split in two, one part for spending and the other part for saving. Deposits to the spending side would increase when unemployment is high, decrease when there is too much inflation. Money placed in the spending part of the account cannot be used for saving; we need to do this because of the paradox of thrift. The yearly total amount credited to both the spending and saving sections of our accounts will always equal the per capita percentage of desired growth of the overall money supply. If the government runs a deficit and needs to borrow, the first place it would borrow would be from our savings in the government bank accounts, with the appropriate interest paid to us.
put down the joint and stop fantasizing
Yes, a Resource Based Economy is the most rational direction for human survival on this planet. Any other system not based on natural resources is doomed. Wake up World! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIMy0QBSQWo&feature=channel_video_title
only coordinators friggin hilarious. "do this" said the man, "but why i don't want to" said the worker. "Because I am the Authorit..... I mean coordinator" said the man
that's why there's terror in this world.....because of people who (1) support the idea of authorities either because they can't decide for themselves, they don't trust that people are generally good-natured or they want terror to thrive and (2) you have not sincerely given it a thought. use your imagination and there's nothing wrong with that. you'll be surprised how much cooperation a resource based economoy would get once people understand how it works.
you are either childish or lying. what would you call a "coordinator"?
Do i have to listen to the coordinator?
what happens if i don't want to follow your coordination?
do you really think 300 million people, never mind 6 billion, are all going to just go along with the "coordinators"
Look up the definition of Utopia
how do you know that someone three thousand miles away will go along with your idea of the best resource, let alone half way around the world. Talk about confiscating someone's resources for their own "profit" whether your definition of profit is money, or a warm fuzzy feeling inside that you receive because you have decided what is "fair". For this to really work you will have to use force eventually. We can't get 3 people to agree on anything, and this is a republic. Never mind a pure democracy "resource economy" (whatever the hell that is)
Read F.A. Hayek "The Road To Serfdom"
i really don't want to belabor the subject with a capitalist (as your username suggests). do you get paid by the 1% for joining the OWS site to assert the capitalist point of view? sorry bro, you won't change my mind. i want justice for all.
Yea I get paid by the 1% boogyman to come on here and spread my point of view.
Justice for all, what a name game. Seriously, please, think logically about it, take the emotion out of your argument and think logically.
Justice for all, is justice for some at the expense of others. Justice for all in a socialist bent is gov't forced "equality" where one man has to step on another's neck, to get their "fair share"
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I have an impleentation plan outlined, what's yours?
I want to live in a world without the caps key. I like politics, it's interesting. Lions live in a world without politics nor money, and they eat gazelles for breakfast.