Forum Post: Im confused by a few of OWS's ideas.
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 17, 2011, 8:12 p.m. EST by RI915
(1)
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I read some of OWS policies on a web site and im concerned with a few for one "Ban the private ownership of land" I am very concerned with that and another one "Ban private gun ownership" I don't like the ban guns because I like shooting for fun, and keeping my gun in my house for safety, and it wont really reduce gun violence because 85% of gun crimes are due to ILLEGAL guns not legally bought ones, and in some places in the Midwest ranch owners need guns to protect their livestock from coyotes and such, you would be hurting them with a law like that, not to mention in some counties their is 1 police officer for every 5 miles.
Lots of folks with lots of wish lists, but I don't think either of those are on the short list of most. That short list needs to be the things we can all agree on and get behind.
Banning private property is pure communism, not anything that could be said with a straight face to be representative of 'the 99%'. This movement is way too leftist to have the broad support it requires to succeed.
To my knowledge OWS is not against private gun ownership. Can you include a link of what you were referring to? Read the decree of wall street. Remember just because someone posts on here doesn't mean it is supported by all of Occupy. Your post for example is not on behalf of an agreed upon GA of occupy.
Nothing about banning guns in this and this is what OWS agreed on
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage. They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses. They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation. They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization. They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices. They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions. They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right. They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay. They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility. They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance. They have sold our privacy as a commodity. They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit. They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce. They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them. They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil. They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit. They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit. They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media. They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt. They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas. They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.* To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
-Occupy
I personally advocate cooperative or collective ownership of land. Landlords operate via an authoritarian process, controlling prices, rules, and so forth. If I opened a business in a mall, I believe all of the businesses in the mall ought to own the entire mall collectively. If I live in an apartment, I believe that all the people living there ought to own the complex collectively. Electoral or council processes can be used to define decisions, etc...
Collective ownership of land? Why should there be collective ownership of ANYTHING when there are so many deadbeats who don't do a lick of work? Why should people who don't work be granted ownership of anything they haven't worked for while those who work have to carry the deadbeats? I resent the notion that I should share my hard-earned property with those who aren't doing jack and who won't do anything even after they are granted partial ownership of my stuff.
If someone doesn't do any work, I would think it would be brought up to the attention of all involved. Whether or not we would see a lot of that in a collective or cooperative setting can be debatable, but I don't see it as a serious issue. It is kind of hard to be a freeloader if everyone's accountable to each other, unless the collective in question are mostly freeloaders. Secondly, I don't really advocate the forced collective approach. I believe it has to start with new businesses and then transpire. The only time I support a forced approach is if a business is going under or if all the workers are really being neglected, then, yes, I support an approach to do so by the workers, on their terms.
If you would like to see the actual list I'll provide a link I don't remember reading about banning land ownership which when you think about it one of the things they are protesting is the foreclosure on homes that are underwater...that sort of cancels that one out...I don't remember reading anything about guns either, and I have guns because I too hunt.
Here's the link https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
Not all of the 'demands' are what I would consider good ones, but hey, have to start some place.
I think you might want to be sure that the information you're getting is actually from the people participating in the protest. That statement sounds like something being put out there by Bill Reilly and Faux News OWS Haters Club.
Those aren't OWS policies. Anyone can post on these forums. I, for one, wholeheartedly support OWS, whose main goal is to remove corporate control of government via repeal of Citizens United and reinstatement of Glass-Steagal, as I understand it. But I support the right to bear arms and possession of personal property.
I agree
Why do you even post about OWS's asinine demands,pleading like you're actually really worried they will be able to overthrow the Govt. and enact this lunacy?
These Freak jobs are Leftists,Commies and Socialists that will eventually be dealt with by possibly the National Guard or other means if they become too much for the Police.
The only "official" policy position of OWS of which I'm aware is the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City, which, while it has a list of about 22 grievances, says nothing, as far as I can recall, either about land ownership or gun ownership.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
What is important to remember is that
99% of the people includes almost everybody. Anarchists, Communists, Libertarians, Christians, muslims, jews, Atheists, black people, white people, strait people, gay people, as well as homeless people, the mentally ill, and sometimes the occasional troll or police embedded Police saboteur.
There are no leaders, there is no central mandate. Everyone has the freedom to believe what they want, and to express themselves freely. So just because someone says 'Let's get rid of private property' or 'let's get rid of gun ownership', doesn't mean that everyone in the group thinks that. You are just seeing 'everybody', so you might be associating with some people or hearing some ideas that seem a little different.
The thing that is happening here is that a hugely diverse bunch of folks are finally getting to say something of what they feel, want, see, and are angry about. That is part of the basic evolution. Yay!
Also, lots of individuals have one or two key issues that most impact their own lives (and family.community). So those get individual attention, as is definitely warranted in this massive discussion/action.
BUT! I think that we, after 2 months, are also getting to see how these many and varied issues really do tie together in so many ways - to reveal what the core issues of the massive tapestry are. We have felt and been alone, and now we see that we are NOT alone, but many in the same sinking boat.
Whether you are concerned about gun ownership, mental health support, the housing market, student loans, lack of sustainable jobs, defunding of everything, etc., these are all symptoms and results of the bigger picture:
1) Allocation of most resources, income, permissions, and policy in the hands to very few who seem to view the 99.9% (us) as wallets with feet who need their mouths taped shut and their attention focused on the TV and pretty pretty gadgets to keep them entertained.
2)The overall weakening of the US social, economic, and security structure by this very allocation of the most to the fewest - who despite their "eliteness" do not seem competent to recognize they have created as weak and unsupportable of a society as was controlled in other periods of history (Medieval lords and serfdom, Roman empire and rabble, whatever).
3) That only by breaking away from the conventional wisdom of "go along to get along" and "follow the established rules" can we reform our own society in the image of what it truly needs to be - by US, for US, represented by US - as the core US Constitution declared.
Keep up the talking and acting! Even those of us who don't get to the streets all the time are with US!!
Be well. :0)
i saw it on this website, http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/11/what_does_occupy_wall_street_want.html
That is a post that is in the forum - one person's agenda. Clearly, the majority of it is just ridiculous. "Release all death row inmates immediately" - come on, this is laughable.
What website? I don't recall seeing anything like that.
A ban on private property seriously, what is this the soviet union, I know a landlord and she actually lowerd the rent on her houses because some of her tenants were having a tough time, and I still didn't get any answer about the gun control
False Flag.
if you want to know what the movement stands for, try reading the Declaration of the Occupation and The Principles of Solidarity, instead getting second hand lies from the Goon Squad at Faux Noos.
You all are real quick to blame Fox news so explain this, why is it the number 1 watched media channel in the country? I don't watch it much (no more than CNN or MSNBC), I choose to get my information from much more reliable sources, but you cannot dispute the numbers and they clearly show that most Americans prefer Fox over all of the other networks. So is the majority of the country wrong for doing so or are they wrong because they don't agree with you?
Because it panders to the xenophobic, homophobic, marginally literate, anti-progressive, American Public. No one ever went broke telling people what they want to hear.
Nice cop out answer. Still dosen't answer the question, why do more than 70% of the country watch Fox over every other news channel? I have come to realize that I will never get an answer to that question here because that seems to be the MO when you can't argue facts, you all just try to demonize. Answer the questions and maybe your so called movement would get a little more respect. Don't be afraid to just have a factual discusion on a matter instead of resorting to bash the question asker. Try again.
No one is coming to take our guns.
If it's on the forums, it's a person's opinion.
Also, gun control and gun ownership has no effect whatsoever on crime, either way.
No effect on crime either way? Um, can you provide a link or two to back up this claim?
Sure. Just compare violent crime statistics in the US south and states like Vermont (loosest gun laws in the US).
The example of Switzerland is bad: there is gun control for non mlitary firearms and there is ammo control for military firearms. You're not supposed to shoot them outside of training and the ammo tin you get at home is labelled in four languages "only open in case of war" with inspections to ensure it's respected.
Albania has some of the loosest gun control in Europe (barely any, even the communists were extremely proud that everyone and their dog had at least a gun at home) and we wouldn't say they have the lowest violent crime rate in Europe. On the European level: France's gun control is much looser than Britain's (iirc there's stuff that's illegal in the US that's legal in France and vice versa; same goes for Canada, there is no legal limit to shotgun barrel length, but we have legal limits on pistol barrel lengths which makes snubbies illegal). The difference between both's crime rates is borderline cosmetic.
Poverty and alienation causes most crimes, guns are just a tool.
The credo for this group sounds like it should be "Hey I don't have it and you do so I want you to give it to me and if you don't, I will break everything around me while I'm stomping my feet until you do."
Your knowledge of the issues driving this movement seems to be limited to the propanga being served up by Fox News. This isn't about stealing from the rich, this is about big money buying our elected officials so they can write the rules that will make them richer. I don't know about you but I'd like the folks I vote for to represent my interests and not those of the corporations that paid for their campaigns. Open your mind and try to get past the lies and hate being thrown at you by the media - all controlled by large corporations and big money interests.
You are simply wrong cool. It's not big money buying our elected officials, it's our elected officials writing laws and enforcing laws (or lack thereof) to create big money for their wallets. You have it backwards. I love the idea of the OWS movement, but you are looking at it backwards. Why can't you see that?
Chicken or the egg. Doesn't matter. The system is rotten and needs to be fixed.
Thank you so much for the first actually legit resonse I have seen to anything on this web site. For once, someone has actually explained what they believe this organization to be about. It isn't that I have limited knowledge of the movement, it's that I have not been able to have anyone in the movement articulatly state what the true purpose is. Now on to your point. I understand the harsh feeling about corporate buying of elected officials however, how does standing outside these "Big Money" buildings and establishments going to change that? It's not. When protesting outside of a building fails what will this group accept as the next step?
These are difficult problems that aren't going to be fixed in the short run. I guess I'm just thankful to see a meaningful conversation started. First step is getting attention so you can bring awareness. We've gotten attention but truthfully the message is garbled on our end and purposely distorted by elements of the media. But I take a long view, and I still believe that a vibrant democracy can be self healing. I kind of believe that if you believe as I do that the basic principals our country are being threatened you have an obligation as a citizen to do something. This isn't perfect, but it's better then seeing and ignoring. We need ideas on how to push this to the next level and I hope you'll join that debate.
Maybe neighborhood councils, general assemblies, etc. Maybe take it from the big money buildings to the actual places where the problems occurred, which is actually happening as we speak. Take it to WalMart and protest their practices. Alert people going in to the store and what they are doing, pass out flyers, etc. Standing outside of these buildings can help in that it gets us broad attention through various media sources. I would assume it is also a bit embarrassing to those who are operating in these buildings to find that their organizations are coming under scrutiny by the public. It shows that a lot of us can't be controlled by corporate propaganda. It shows that maybe you can buy out politicians and spread propaganda through various think tanks, but you can not buy out a large sector of the public, maybe some, but not a large.
Best comment I've read all night.
Banning private property (if it were even possible...I don't think it could be done) would get rid of rent/landlords.
It would create a host of other problems though. Transferring houses and other fixtures on land. If one moves, is the house abandoned? And can anyone just move in now?
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You would have probably said the same thing about the original American revolution.
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You judge a global movement by what one person did? You find good and bad in every movement.
I don't recall seeing anything like this - it's posts like this that turn people off because it makes no sense.
You're confused? OWS is confused by OWS's ideas.
After having followed this soap opera for a couple months let me list what I think they're protesting: 99%, FoxNews, Trolls, NYPD, and NYC's homeless.