Forum Post: IF YOU READ ANYTHING ON HERE READ THIS: Why this movement will fail if we don't do this:
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 5, 2011, 10:29 p.m. EST by AN0NYM0US
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You hear the "trolls" on here constantly, making fun of us, poking at our ideals. We just brush them off as trolls or argue with them. Yet we forget, these are also the 99% We must ask ourselves: Why do they not see our cause? Why do they not join us?
I will tell you why. Because everything we say is true. We are all just whiney little kids with no idea what to do or how to do it. We are all just trying to push our own agendas and not thinking of the movement, of the country as a whole. At least this is how the rest of the 99% see us, and that is all that matters.
Frankly, I have been for this movement from the begining. Yet when I see protestors in the street, making life harder for the rest of the 99% I am ashamed. The powers we are fighting against are bad enough, how would you feel if, because you felt it necessary to march in the street, a father of four was fired for being late for work?
We should do all we can to show we care. Just our growing presence is enough, we don't need to disrupt their lives too.
Also, we hold signs like END the FED and Bring them home. While these seem like great and revolutionary ideas to you, they may not seem that way to the other half of the 99%. We claim to be the 99%, so we must represent the 99%. Not all of us want living wages or gun control. Just like we don't all want gay marriage to be illegal or more wars. We all have different ideals. This is not the time to push those ideals.
We need to UNITE under one common goal! Fix the system! Fix our Democracy! End the corruption! MAKE THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE!
We can all agree with this. This will unite us! This will bring about permanent change. THEN, and only then. Once we fix the government, then we can all equally and fairly vote for our ideals in our democratic system!
I understand you are all angry because of an injustice here and an injustice there. But the REAL injustice, is that our political sytem doesn't give us the power to fix these things in a legitimate manner.
So remember, we need to end our polarizing (and sometimes extremist) demands. We need to summarize our needs as "Fixing the government so that we may legitimately push for our demands" and that is it.
One more thing. The way we appear matters. You think it doesn't? The rest of the 99% is watching, and if they don't like what they see, we will be reduced to the 33%.
PLEASE pass this message on. We don't need leaders, we don't need a list of demands, but we DO need a clear concise goal. Just like Martin Luther King Junior's clear concise goal was equality to all African Americans, ours must be "A fair, democratic, representative government that views us all equally" MLKjr had seperate demands, but he had a main goal, that people of all kinds could understand and get behind.
I really hope you read this and understand it. I don't know how to make it any clearer, and I'm losing faith quickly in where this movement is going.
"We need to UNITE under one common goal! Fix the system! Fix our Democracy! End the corruption! MAKE THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE!"... This is the ONLY sensible thing I have seen written on these pages. Yet you all DO NOT tell MoveOn.org, or the big labor unions and democrats to please depart the premises. You talk about contradictory!! And of course the Tea Party is disparaged as wacko when this goal (above) is exactly what they are pushing for. You are absolutely correct, I would say 99.9% of the population would agree with your above declaration. On the other hand, 99.9% of the population would be totally against all these other socialist/ Marxist demands that have popped up on this website.... As I have stated before, this is just a MOB with no logical thinking!
No, these are just individuals who haven't become a group yet. Please, tell me where the original tea partiers are. I will gladly invite them to this movement. Not Palin or those other fakes. The real people!
We need more voices! Watch the video on the thread "an amazingly spot-on explanation" While those are specific steps to take, they are very good steps to take, and that kid is amazing
That's my problem with this whole thing.... you need more voices FOR WHAT already? I certainly don't know at this point and neither does 90% of the world. And believe me when I say this is the classic definition of a MOB.
The Tea Partiers are all around you. How you can say Palin, Herman Cain, Marco Rubio, Allen West, etc are fakes? These are the faces of the Tea Party that will eventually prevail in our political system. People of the Tea Party would not be part of such a MOB because of the lack of direction, purpose, and logical thinking
I cannot comment on everything in this video but suffice to say, he does have some good things to say but at the same time the economic education he displays is lacking. The anti capitalism on display in your MOB does not jive with what he is talking about. Yes, the government is a huge problem, not the solution. Free markets and capitalism is the answer.
Those republicans just hijacked the tea party, and we need more voices to have a true democracy
Don't be mistaken. True grass roots teapartiers would probably get behind OWS if there was a clear mission/goal. The tea party started with wasteful spending and bailouts.
Right a clear goal is the only way we are going to gain a mainstream following.
here is my idea for a clear goal that solves the issue of varying ideas in the movement, a true democracy. http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-union-of-all-dissatisfied-peoples-ows-and-even-t/
The clear goal is to end the corruption that is subverting our democracy. The only reason it seems unclear is because the news shows it that way. We have announced many times what our goals were.
If it was clear, you'd be able to paint a picture of it. We'd have an identifiable victory.
For example: destroying a nazi regime is something you can paint a picture of. destorying terrorism is not something you can paint a picture of, since terrorism is an idea. corrpution is an idea. what does it look like to "end corruption that is subverting our democracy"? That's the specifics to paint a picture that people are talking about.
If it is unable to be literally visualized in a concrete way, it is not a clear goal.
Oh, well. That is a new definition of clear goal. Sorry, I guess it is just a regular goal. How about ending the corporate grip on our democracy? I can describe it differently, but I think you can understand that.
"How about ending the corporate grip on our democracy?"
Okay... HOW?!? We need clearly defined objectives to meet this goal.
For example, people want the Wall Street fatcats in jail, but can't come up with charges.
There is a long list of demands and most of them are unachievable, unrealistic, and even outright insane. We need to whittle down those demands and find ones that 99% of citizens would support.
I commented above because I feel OWS needs help sorting out what's feasible with Wall St. I'm glad you see the problem. JP Morgan has by its own estimate 10,000 litigations pending where it is named as a defendant. (stated in their 2010 Annual Report) That number is not business as usual. Those are charges against the firm, not individuals, but still good charges let's assume. JPM estimates that the max damages it would have to pay is $4.5 billion. The question is why these cases have piled up. The Report summarizes some of the cases. They originated prior to the 2008 meltdown. JPM filed to dismiss on some of them which was denied. This is the kind of detail that needs to be looked at. With no one paying attention, could these cases just quietly go away? JPM isn't showing any urgency. So rather than putting fatcats in jail, which we would all love to see, maybe we need to start with an appointed position to oversee a review of the cases pending. There could be individuals implicated in the cases.. But right now, I don't get the feeling that this is on anyone's radar. 10,000 cases and that's just one firm. From Goldman, to Holder, to the Federal Dist Court of Southern NY, to the SEC, somebody needs to make sure that they are all doing their jobs. The $4.6 million they paid to the NYPD is another story and I've already contacted the SEC about that. Possible conflict of interest. JPM is a municipal bond underwriter. Even if they haven't done muni bond underwriting business with NYC so far, the "donation" could have been a soliciation for future underwriting business.
thank you. That is probably the most realistic idea I've seen regarding bringing Wall Street cronies up on charges.
Lets start with presenting a petition for a bill to end corporate lobbying and to reverse legislation to end corporate personship.
There are easy ways. No more corporate citzenship. No more donations from corporations to politics. And no more corporate lobyists
Also we can petition for an amendment that limits the lenght of time any 1 legislator can serve. Just like with the presidency.
I think term limits are a mistake. Right now, people need to raise tons of money to gain office. After an initial term, politicians can "pay off" their sponsorship debt. Forcing them out after that would just encourage MORE corruption as every politician would then be in debt.
We should end the need for them to raise so much money
I'm sorry, but I think it is hopelessly naive to think that money can be eliminated from an election process.
There would need to be laws and regulations set in place to prevent it.
People would find a way because it is so valuable to do so. The benefits for gaming the system are just too great.
Personally, I think we should institute lotteries for seats in the House (for interested & eligible citizens) as a way of putting common people in government. True representative government.
okay (playing devil's advocate).. so we eliminate corporate lobbyists. Then, what do we do if one group/corporation gains a foothold in the government, say with ties to a politician (like Dick Cheney and Halliburton). How do opposing corporations/interests get their concerns aired? How do they notify politicians of potentially harmful legislation?
We do need to restructure how we select politicians. I favor a random lottery for the House... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaRn6KkGnW0
It isn't that hard to conceive. There would be a law that bans all forms of corporate lobbying. If a corporation "gains a foothold in the government" because an individual politician was formerly affiliated with the corporation, that isn't particularly problematic. The real problem has not been that, but has been--among other things--billions spent on corporate lobbying.
Note that this does not mean that corporations have no role to play in policy whatsoever. If a representative feels like it is important to get a corporation's input on how a proposed policy change might affect its production or employment or what have you, the representative can ask the corporation (or its executives) to come to Congress and testify publicly. Interaction between representatives and corporations should occur only in public, transcribed hearings.
So, there's one concrete goal.
They can form protests. But lobbyists WRITE laws and try to get them passed. Also we shouldn't elect anyone that may be biased like that.
but we do elect people like that. It is inevitable with elections. Even with campaign finance reform, people with money can spend it in ways to promote themselves and gain an edge on their competitors. Elections are a popularity contest and do not choose the best candidate. There are several scientific studies that point to inherent problems, like the famous one where people looked at photos of two different candidates and were asked to choose which candidate appeared to look more "like a leader". They were able to pick the winner of those elections far better than 50/50.
We need a different way of selecting our politicians. That's one reason why I like the idea of a random lottery to choose representatives. It encourages public education (what citizen wants an idiot as their representative?), it encourages civil debate and discussion (who wants a shouting war with their neighbor?).
At the same time, there is a high chance of getting said idiot.
No system is perfect. We can merely strive to correct the current problems.
We already get idiots in office. They are usually checked and balanced by the other members from their state, from other members in the House... and if those fail, then by the Senate, the President, and the SCOTUS.
In other words, it is far safer than you'd think.
This is the problem when people talk about "happiness" or "success". It can mean so many things. It doesn't mean people don't understand, but if the whole group was here for "happiness"...what would that look like? That's impossible to get anything done. Now if the group was here "to get Wall St to give everyone 100,000 dollars.", that's something to work with.
You can't get "happiness" or "success" on a large collective level any more than you can end "corruption" or "terrorism". These are all ideas. We need a picture of victory in order to achieve it.
Same in your personal life. When you want something, you figure out what it is and then go out and get it. You don't just go occupy the living room, demanding happiness.
Good point.
Simple as Audit The Federal Reserve and hold those accountable by Law, watch it self destruct and grab a hold of the steering wheel.
Yes, I agree, it is as simple - and as complicated - as that.
At some point, there will be policy discussions. At some point, it will be more than a movement with 500' tall ideals. It will have to become real; not now, agreed, but the conversation needs to be started.
As for the original tea party, hard to say what that is and who represents it. I'm trying to dialogue with people on this board who say they are; most of them definitely don't share my views, on the "how," but it's a start. Simply stating "Fix the system! Fix our Democracy! End the corruption!" is a great way to mobilize people, and in many ways, that's the easy part. But translating that into a more specific "what"is what Thoreau42 seems to be talking about. PeaceProsperity is giving voice to the "how," of course, the question then becomes "by whom"?
One of the underlying assumptions of your screed, which is a pretty good one, is that people need to respect differences and try not to put people in political boxes. I've been guilty of this, but am trying not to do it. It ain't easy, that's for sure...
I understand what you're saying, but I think people are demanding the means to achieve happiness. The means to achieve relatively collective happiness begin with a relatively just political system. Our political system has been corrupted. I think this is what ows is all about-- getting money out of politics. How do we do this? Reverse the Citizens United decision and end the legal force behind "corporate personhood".
I completely agree with what you're saying, though. Most movements fail because there is no concrete end goal.
Well said! Focus on that one goal and achieve that one goal and the rest will follow IF people stay involved, informed and voting properly.
TP goals are pure mush. They don't Understand what they mean. The only common goal in the TP is Nobama.
I agree with the sentiment.
I don't think government is the problem. In a democracy, the government should be "of the people, by the people and for the people". The problem today is that corporations and the wealthy have taken control of our government. Unrestrained capitalism erodes democracy in this way.
So you are saying that since the government is so corrupt and cannot restrain itself from the advances of outside influences, the OUTSIDE influence MUST be at fault! Come on please.....
We need more voices to diversify our opinions so it isn't a bunch of lefty bull. it is a bunch of middle bull lol.
They just claim to be Tea Partiers. They are cold heartless people who don't give a fuck about our constitution and just want to be on the corporation payroll.
Tell me this: How do we have free market capitalism, when Walmart moves in and closes all local businesses? Tell me that. This ISN'T free market capitalism. This is a dictatorship capitalism. It is dictated by those that HAVE INHERITED THEIR WEALTH AND CORPORATIONS they don't deserve them. The REAL people that Tea Partiers support are the mom and pop shops across America., Cain has proved he is not a Tea Partier when he said, "If you are poor, it is your fault" This, coming from an African American who knows DAMN well that those in the ghetto don't have an equal chance of prosperity.
He also knows damn well that the mom and pop shops weren't closed for any fault of their own.
When our founding fathers chose a "Free-market capitalist society, They had no idea there could be such things as Global Corporations. They had no concept of BILLIONS of dollars. They didn't want a centralized bank, and frankly, they would be pretty pissed at where this country was right now.
Tea partiers are named after those that snuck on a British Ship and dumped Tea in the bay to protest the disgusting control that was held over their daily lives. The Tea Partiers want to protect what they believed in.
Well the Sure as hell didn't believe in a McDonalds or HB Gary. I can tell you that. So, do some research on the REAL Tea Party. Then you tell me that Palin, taking a nation tour and doing nothing but sitting on her ass and making money is a Tea Partier. She is just some person that saw opportunity to make money, and adopted their name to make her famous.
Please quit hiding your blatant contempt for success behind this "occupy" crap. Why don't you just come out and declare yourself a communist once and for all and TRY to convince everybody how much better it will be under that kind of system.
Tea Party took that moniker for a reason man... GOVERNMENT GET OUT OF OUR LIVES!!! Cold and heartless.... now that cracks me up. One of the most inclusive groups ever formed.
What you describe above is laughable. We have a Walmart in our town... Next to it, Ace Hardware (family owned), numerous restaurants (franchisees), countless other specialty shops, Lowes, TSC, Two other grocery's..... I guess those businesses didn't get your memo. If a "mom and pop" cannot compete, that IS their fault... jesus.
H Cain has been much poorer than you that is for sure. When he says what he says, it is from experience and, yes, if you fail in life, it IS your fault or choice. That is what we call in this nation, FREEDOM. A very foreign concept to you I guess... freedom to work your ass off and succeed or sit on your ass complaining about all the world injustices going against you and failing. I see your chosen path.
You are absolutely correct about the Founding Fathers being pissed. Exactly the stance of the Tea Party. They would abhor the over taxation and over spending going on in this government. They would abhor the cradle to grave coddling of this welfare state.
Your "open" mind is so closed it's like a black hole. You blame anybody for making money yet you sit there with your corporate made computer and phone and everything else in your life and say how BAD that is. A HUGE amount of people love what Palin has to say about how this country is being run and are willing to pay money to see her. If she was a mindless idiot as you all say, no one would care and certainly no one would pay a plug nickel to see her.... AGAIN, this is the FREEDOM of this country which disgusts you so much. You would be much happier in China or North Korea....
You assume much too much about me.
I love capitalism! I really do. But that doesn't mean there should be no rules?
I love freedom, which is why I am here. I want freedom from the federal government, and I want freedom from the corporations that control it. That isn't to say all corporations are evil, but the ones we are protesting against ARE.
I love capitalism because I love that, if I work hard in University (currently have a 3.8) and go out and work hard in my career, I can make a LOT of money, own a fancy house, and do what I want. I think success is great. HOWEVER Success from the degredation of human life is NOT success, it is stealing.
You are saying it is okay that a company outsources all of it's jobs, promotes a war to make money, treats it's workers like slaves, and ignores ethical and health regulations, just to make a quick buck? That sounds like FREEDOM all right, freedom for the rich to do whatever the hell they want, when they want, without having any laws. ON TOP OF THAT, you think it is okay that Corporations and banks are allowed to bribe our politicians so that the corporations have more say in our government than we do? I'm sorry, but that is not freedom, that is facism and a kleptocracy. If you like that sort of thing, move to China. I hear they love it.
As for hating the rich, If someone has a great idea, like Bill Gates, comes up with great marketing, and sells his idea for BILLIONS!!! Good for him :D However if someone is handed a bunch of money, and they invest it in a bunch of economic loopholes - Makes millions - Opens a bank that forecloses people who aren't supposed to be foreclosed- fucks up THEIR finances - Bribes politicians so they pass a law that gives them millions of tax payer dollars - Then continues being a dick to the American people. YEAH YOU BETTER BELIEVE THAT PISSES ME OFF!!!
Freedom doesn't mean there are no laws. What that bank above did is unforgivable! It subverts democracy and our constitution! Any REAL Tea Partier would agree.
I am not a communist, nor a marxist. I am just a rational person who understands what is happening to this country. And I know that the reason it has gotten so bad is because people like you have been trained that anything that doesn't involve the 99% bending over and taking whatever the corrupt politicians and corporations shoves at us is unpatriotic.
WELL DISSENT IS THE MOST PATRIOTIC THING WE CAN POSSIBLY DO! The Tea Party knows this, do you?
By the way, what is your view, as what I assume is a Tea Partier, of the "Patriot Act"?
SENSIBLE dissent!
I certainly back the government spending less and taking less, if that is Tea Party, I guess that's me. Never been to a rally though. I believe the Patriot Act is giving us more tools fighting terrorism. That btw is one of the central purposes of government. BHO must think the same by renewing it in 2009. If we can stop another 9/11 by selectively monitoring phone communication or transactions, right on.
I NEVER said we should have no laws. There needs to be a balance that we lost in the mid 2000's though. We cleaned up in the 70's/ 80's but now these type of regulations are strangling everybody. It will NEVER stop with the environmentalists until ALL the manufacturing is driven out of the US or the products cost so much only Bill Gates can afford them.
I have no idea what your bank reference is about. "Someone handed a bunch of money".... ok, if I win 100 mil lottery (millions of people doing this I guess), I will certainly invest my money. If there is an "economic loophole" (whatever that is), it is legal and if it makes me more money I will certainly take advantage of it. If I make millions and decide to open a bank, you are saying on the first day I will go out to a certain percentage of my customers and "foreclose on them" for no reason except to fuck with them (REAL good business).
What you should be saying is we all need to flood elections and vote for leaders that will change this arcane tax law. Get rid of the IRS and you rid yourself of all these "corporate" issues that keep flying around. VOTE out corrupt morons like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd who did EXACTLY what you referenced above! THEY are the ones subverting the american people. This is what YOU should be spending your time doing, going out among the population and telling every one that will listen what these scumbags have done and vote them OUT according to our Constitution.
"the government is a huge problem, not the solution." Thank you, Ronald Reagan. There is no such thing as free market. Dope dealers is a close as you can get.
I can say it... Palin, Herman Cain, Marco Rubio, Allen West, etc are fakes.
Well, I think this is the problem. The Tea party and those who are the faces of the Tea Party really are not the same kind of people who are engaged in this protest. This movement does not believe government is the problem, this movement believes that "free markets and capitalism" have caused problems in the government. There is a big difference. This group would like to get the money out of politics and have government do something for the common good, instead of the wealthy. And that just isnt what the Tea Party stands for.
How could anybody compare the Tea Party to "occupiers"?
Tea Party.... Organized, Definitive, Respectful, Intelligent, Reasoned, Steadfast, Principled, Patriotic, Capitalist, Law abiding,
Occupiers.... MOB, Socialist, Marxist, Anti capitalist, Vague, Irrational, Lawbreaking
I would like a reasonable explanation of what you mean by "get the money out of politics and have government do something for the common good". Does that mean you all want to do away with all taxes to the government? That is certainly the ONLY way to get money out of politics. Do you mean campaign contributions? Why shouldn't I or anybody be able to support who I believe in. Lobbying? Uh, talk to your union cronies about that one!
"Do something for the common good".... sooo, like welfare, social security, food stamps, unemployment insurance, medicare, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Aid to Families with Dependent Children, School Lunch Program, on and on and on.... No... Thank God the Tea Party does NOT stand for what you do....
Tea Party bought and paid for the 1% Produced and directed by the Republican party.
Oh, Ok, Right.... I guess you follow the workings in Washington through your coloring book... Nobody in their right mind could ever think that the Republican establishment is behind the Tea Party.... more proof of the lack of thinking in occupiers...
http://www.realitysandwich.com/occupy_wall_street_no_demand_big_enough Mobs show up at political functions carrying guns and screaming at congress people at town hall meetings. Mobs don't hold general assemblies 2 X /day and practice nonviolence. Mobs don't spend time thinking how to care for each other. Read the above link and groove to the necessity of this vagueness. It's appropriate to question the efficacy of capitalism, when capitalism is destroying our economy, our government our humanity and our biosphere. You attacking this movement with epithets like MOB and irrational and lawbreaking will not make the movement go away. The staying power of this movement is driven by the huge disparity between rich and poor, not your opinion of it
"what we really want is nothing less than the more beautiful world our hearts tell us is possible?" "Our job is to take a stand for a world that is truly beautiful, fair, and just, a planet and a civilization that is healing."
OH PLEASE....
BTW...at least 700 of you arrested = lawbreaking
look through these posts at some of these "demands" and the definition of irrational = irrational
Please don't call me a marxist, socialist or anticapitalist. There are people among us that subscribe to those philosophies, but they do not define our movement. I personally know racist Tea Party members, yet I some how manage to recognize their affiliation doesn't make all of you bigots.
That happens to be one of my overriding problems here.... WHAT DO YOU STAND FOR? Nobody knows so now all these other entities can stand out front telling the world what you stand for. But then I hear what great thinking it is to gather as a group with vague or non existent demands or goals. I do certainly understand that some of you want exactly what I want.... less government in our lives, straighten out the monetary system, etc but that is NOT the overriding message being put out
Everyone wants something a little bit different and everyone wants those things for different reasons. This is the movement's greatest strength and weakness. This is why the "You're a __ group" is ridiculous. That's why the group calls itself the 99%.
Personally, I'm here for campaign finance reform and putting an end to corporate influence on my American government. I think everyone from Tea Partyist to anarchocommunist can agree that needs some serious change and more importantly that we can change it.
But that's just me. That's why this is a leaderless movement. Everyone's voice is equal. All of the 99% is welcome to take part in this movement. If you think there is an overly loud socialist or marxist voice in this movement, then perhaps you should involve yourself in exactly the way I am. I.e. speaking out, making your own side of things heard and representing yourself the way you want to be portrayed.
I'm sorry, but this HAS to be a complete exercise in futility then. You've got this "occupy" movement formed to "make people listen". You get every wacko under the sun to show up with demands ranging from making this country the next USSR (or worse) to your simple campaign finance reform. You can NOT be taken seriously by anybody if "every voice is equal" in this movement. The only foreseeable outcome of that would either be every single wacko statement turns into a "demand", or you end up as any political group with infighting for certain views to be the platform. Either way, you are screwed.... but you "had your voice heard" whatever that amounts to.
If I'm not mistaken all those wackos can be involved in the current US political system.
I think we can come to a consensus and agreement. Maybe we can't, but I'll ask what's the harm in trying? Look at it like this:
1) If, no matter what we do, we will never make a difference and we... A) Don't try or B) Do try... OR 2) If, there is the possibility to make a difference and we... A) Don't try and B) Do try.
Outcome 1A: Nothing changes, no waster effort. Outcome 1B: Nothing changes, we have some wasted effort. Outcome 2A) Nothing changes, no wasted effort Outcome 2B) Something changes, we still have to make the effort.
Personally that seems like a pretty simple choice to me, but you have to make up your own mind. If you're in support of 1A, perhaps you should cut your losses now and just not mess with the movement at all? Why bother posting at all if you're sure the situation is hopeless?
I am not a part of this "movement" but seeing what I am seeing in news reports and these posts, you cannot possibly believe there will be any kind of consensus except from the power of this movement. unions will get what they are looking for and the far left socialist wing will get some... everybody else, phtttt. I came to these posts to see if I could finally find an answer to... why are they there (still don't know)? Some of these posts just flat out piss me off and I respond hoping to give an opposite view. I have never stated that the situation is hopeless. We, as in the general public, have to use 2012 to get BHO and his cohorts OUT and bring sanity back to the size and scope of government. That is the way our country was founded and THAT is the way it needs to change. If there are enough that think BHO is what is RIGHT with this country, so be it... we will try again in 2016 then
Sorry, when I read "Either way, you are screwed...." read that to mean that this protest was hopeless. Was that not what you meant?
You have to admit, it is amusing the way we're both jaded about one thing and hopeful about another. Replacing Obama isn't going to change anything, regardless of who or what party does that. It's far too simplistic to say "Ah! Obama is the only problem!" when these problems have been festering for a long time. The Us vs. Them sports team mentality is what got us into this mess. It's a distraction from the issues at hand.
For that matter, I'd like to hear what the far left socialist wing and the unions are going to get and how they are going to get it.
Yes, I really can believe there can be some consensus. If we as Americans can't find common ground then there really is no hope. The two party political stagnation of this country has failed us up to this point. It's naive to think that is going to magically change by itself.
Wow! you are perfectly wrong on all counts, but thanks for playing.
Oh, very deep, compelling, and intelligent observation on your part... typical "occupier"
No see his reply was actually perfect because you are actually absolutely wrong on all counts and JC is not going to waste time trying to explain why to you because you are still asleep unfortunately and until you are awake its pointless trying to explain. We at occupy a full of intelligent intellectual people that are awake to the problems and the solutions. The mainstream media does not cover the truth about what we know and talk about. I am in Denver and they have blatantly lied and mislead on every single local coverage piece what we are about. They are a part of the same oppressive system we are standing up against. I do hope you don't take this as an attack towards you because it is not. Just trying to shed some light. Cheers and good luck bud.
But see that is my issue here. There are many different people at your "occupations" with many different agenda's yet no one is able to admit that this whole movement was formed and backed by large labor unions and the long dormant socialist groups. I know this is brushed off as baseless and shallow by you but when you look deeply at what is going on, that conclusion is inescapable.
You say you are not getting accurate coverage by the media. They may be part of the same oppressive system but the reason you are not being covered properly is because of the union/ socialist backing. They want the far left agenda's pushed more which I guess is what you are referring to. That is why the somewhat intelligent ideas are being pushed to the background.
Sorry, but I could never claim a capitalist system destroys people... it is just the opposite. If the government would get out of the way and let us go back to truly capitalist, everybody would be elevated
AMEN!
In MY time... The unions weren't 'cronies' to folks like goeib1, they were his anti-war protester dirty hippie beating 'friends'. I've seen comments elsewhere about that wish for thuggery recently in other places by people just as clueless as he. My My... how times have changed, and how quickly these people turn on their former 'heroes'.
I might be able to respond to something like this if I knew what the hell you were talking about. If you think union bosses or anti war hippies (occupiers?) were my heroes I have no idea how you would get that. Unions have always been and always will be corrupt to the core, ripping off the very people they claim to protect. Now they organize and back MOBs like occupiers. What ARE you talking about....
Taxes have nothing to do with money in politics. I dont have "union cronies".....you know, honestly when I see the way that most people in the Tea Party talk, you sound a little like old school communists. What I mean is you have this party line and you just stick to it "union cronies" "marxist, socialist, irrational lawbreaking". You guys are like the ultra capitalist form of communist education and indoctrination.
Yet you are here, why?
Well, I guess you can call that a party line, I call it intelligent thinking. I would love to see your sources that show me old school communists saying government should live within it's means, take personal responsibility in your life, lower taxes so people have more of what they EARN, Get the government out of my life.... Good luck with that one!
I guess there is no definition of "get the money out of politics". You certainly do have union corruption among you at this "occupation" but you fail to open your eyes.
Why am I here? Maybe trying to give people that don't know any better a different perspective Maybe trying to get amusement over the idiocy being spouted Maybe amazed at what passes for intelligent conversation
That isnt what I mean. There used to be standard language that came out of the Soviet Union. Some of it still comes out of China, though not as much anymore. It was all about "the capitalist clique" and "you poor capitalist peasant" and "The imperialist ambitions of The United States". I hear alot of the lingo of the Tea Party and it is the same old thing. They dont use the same theories as the communists but it seems they were indoctrinated by something very similar. The language is always the same. Things like "Job Creators" "union thugs" "big government" "tax and spend" and my favorite "job killing regulations". It is like the central committee for the Tea Party passed out new language every month in some kind of Pravda newsletter so that all the Tea Party members would know what to say.
Ok... so from now on I need to say... if only this huge political infrastructure made up of representatives that choose to levy ever increasing taxes on me and still not have enough, requiring them to borrow insatiably from China and around the world, would please diminish some of the 145,816 (2007) pages that outline what I can and cannot do during a typical day of my life and business or how to start up said business, it might be slightly easier for me to exist as a business or individual and thus make more money leading to hiring more nice folks like yourself..... instead of...
if big government would reduce job killing regulations I could increase my business and hire people.
Wouldn't want to spout all these damn Tea Party talking points! BTW, I've never been to a Tea Party Rally or gotten one of those lingo handouts...
But they arent levying more taxes on you. Havent been for years. And there really arent that many regulations which would have that much effect on real employment. What would it do, create 100 jobs but make our drinking water contaminated? Bad idea and I think I will pass.
The proposed raise in the tax on people making a million dollars a year or more that will be attached to the next job bill to hit the floor in Congress will mean that millionaire will have to pay about $15,000 dollars more a year. Oh MY it's gonna break the back of the wealthy... Meh.
Yeah and then they're going to stop all that job making they're doing!
First off, If you think what BHO sent to Congress was a "jobs" bill, then there is something seriously missing upstairs for you. This was a flat out campaign gimmick and liberal wish list of tax hikes that has NO chance of seeing the light of day. He can't even get Harry Reid to put it up for a vote!
Your typical liberal take is so far off it's pathetic. Obama's "millionaire" would be a couple in business making 200K. I guess to you all grubbing around in a park for a few weeks acting morally superior, that would be a lot of money. A mere 10 or 15K more in taxes is just pocket change to these people I guess. Most of these people/ businesses would fold up with more taxes/ fees accessed on them. My brother is in this exact scenario and will end up putting 10 or so more people on the unemployment list.
I agree, Obama doesn't give a fuck about us. It has been almost 4 years and what has he done? Increased drone strikes, killed an American, and hid behind congress blaming them for not accepting his half assed ideas. I liked him too. But a month in he proved he was the same as everyone else.
Oh god.... You must be mighty young. Well, hope you actually try to educate yourself (not college education.. and yes I do have college degree) someday before it is too late. It is easy to go around saying, Oh those corporations and rich people have screwed me and my friends lives and thank god the government is trying to protect us from all this evil. We need to pay more for that protection!
Think for YOURSELF using real data and history and you may break out of that liberal mold.Later.... and good luck on your education.
Probably much older than you. I've been down this road before, and it was long before computers,,, and I was never "educated".. Except for my childhood being raised by wolves. That education served me well in American society.
I gotta hand it to you though... you used the words "Real" and "Data" in the same sentence. I needed that laugh thanks.
Have you read Buffett's letter? Stop protecting him. He is ok and thinks he should contribute more.
It is the CEO in the corporation just trying to do his job well (make his company earn more money) that will try what he wouldn't try as a responsible and ethical person for his/her own good. You have to stop him/her. He/she can't stop himself/herself. He gets paid not to.
you people are really scary....is it YOU, or your neighbor, or some idiot politician, or who exactly has any right whatsoever to tell a CEO/ entrepreneur, business owner how to run his business ...FOR THEIR OWN GOOD no less.... jeez.... really need to listen to what you are saying
When there was no laws about pollution, CEOs ran their companies polluting as long as that maximized their gains. If they didn't, their companies would not have been competitive as the other competition/CEOs could pollute at will, saving $$. They probably didn't like to make a mess of everything, but they had to (I am being nice, and I am going to assume it wasn't out of greed or stupidity). Then somebody past a law and now everybody is happy. The world didn't end. It is actually a better place to live.
Perfect analogy for the current situation.
The Tea Party founding document was a blog written by Karl Denninger on Jan 20 2009 Obama's Inauguration Day. He expressed concern about the $700 Billion TARP and suggested to his readers to mail tea bags to the White House. http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=2137825 The focus began shifting less than 4 weeks later when the 2009 Econominc Stimulus was passed. There was a famous rant on CNBC by commentator Rick Santelli directed at Obama. A couple of months later, there were numerous tea parties on April 15 (tax day) and by then, much of the energy went into partisan attacks that had nothing to do with the stimulus, taxes, or the budget. The movement continued to reference those topics as well as jobs, but they haven't delivered. Their story about balancing the budget is contradicted by their refusal to recognize that we have a revenue problem as much as a deficit problem.
We all need to be considerate of the 99%, so we don't sour people to the movement.
It seems [GandhiKingMindset] has the best written set of demand, forum titled: "PROPOSED LIST OF DEMANDS". He did the best job of listing what needs to be changed on Wall Street and the government.
We need to go back to separation between Commercial and Investment Banks, i.e. Glass Steagall Act, and we need Regulators (and laws) that have backbone. We also need to break up the "Too Big To Fail" financial institutions, ban naked short selling, and limit commodity speculation. Poor people are dying all around the world because they can't afford to eat and most of it is cause by commodity speculation (bubbles). We then need to go after the corruption in government, i.e. lobbyst, ALEC type foundations, and Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission. Corporations are NOT people and should not have anywhere near the rights people do.
I agree that these all seem like sound proposals. Does OWS have anyone who can help you understand how Wall Street works, particularly in relation to the SEC and other regulators? If not, I might be able to help. The entire system is compromised. The wizards of Wall Street run rings around the regulators. For example, they created new products that no one had ever heard of, which were therefore unregulated. The SEC had to rely on the crooks to explain to them how it all worked. This is not uncommon because industry always develops new practices and the SEC plays catch up. The SEC can't afford the brains that industry can pay. This disadvantage is intentional. In 2010, Goldman paid a $550 million fine (biggest ever) to settle a case with the SEC. For Goldman, that's just the cost of doing business (4% of their 2009 profit). The SEC doesn't always go after individuals. They allow themselves to be limited in multiple ways. For example, they encourage industry to comment before new rules are adopted. Guess who ends up writing the rules? I feel the OWS intentions are true and the proposals are good. But when I read them I also felt that they needed to go deeper. Who's going to do that?
Note: DirtyHippie, I was responding to you and the people above you on the list. This forum is a little weird,i.e. the levels should be collapsible and the weighting eliminated.
I guess I agree with you totally. Things do go a lot deeper then most people want to admit. I don't know if the Glass Steagall Act was perfect, but it kept the "peoples" money away from the investment banks and seemed to work for 60-70 years. And back then Investment banks were different. They were partnerships of wealthy people who were playing with their own money. Wall Street has a gambling mentality (addiction), always looking for a new product (fix) to gamble on. The more complex the better... since it seemed to have kept the SEC baffled (or maybe they are Goldman alumni). Anyway, the gambling, or bubbles, or commodities speculation, or whatever you want to call it is killing people with starvation all around the world. Naked short selling just seems to be criminal to me. I don't know if you have seen "PBS Frontline: The Warning, The Financial Collapse - Brooksley Born ", but it is quit good: http://goldmanbanksters.com/our-thinking/regulators/" .
I agree he has some good ideas. Sometimes it's better to start simple. But the most important thing is that protesters in the streets don't do anything that could brand the OWS with a negative attitude.
He has good ideas but until we get the whole 99% involved, it is not fair to demand these yet.
i'm a member of the tea party ive been to the occupation twice i support it only because i believe we can really change our gov if we join both the tea party and ows
Yes, that is exactly right. Then the news couldn't say we are a left tea party. We ARE the Tea Party. We are the Left. We are the Right. We are the 99%
yes the only problem is joining the 2 the way i see it is we need to have 1 goal, the same goal as the origins of the tea party and that is take the gov down some notches, have them stop these ridiculous bailouts/stimulus eventually we'll be able to do something but if the tea party and ows do not join i fear they will be the end of eachother
I agree completely
i too agree with what you guys are talking about, they need to unite, the 99% need a platform. i think its not as hard to find as you may think, and can be done within the current system. http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-union-of-all-dissatisfied-peoples-ows-and-even-t/
The Tea Party, The OWS movement and any third party like the Greens should get behind the idea of eliminating money from the election cycle. With a level playing field we will all have a chance of once again being heard.
The Supreme Court granted corporations access to our electoral process. It will require a Constitutional amendment to overturn their ruling. Having all House, Senate and Presidential elections funded with taxpayer dollars will return the concept of one person, one vote. No personal fortunes may be used by candidates. Eliminating the influence of corporate contributions will put each voter on par with the lobbyist. Even politicians will realize they no longer have to cater to those who will finance their campaigns. Without the specter of perpetual campaigning they will have more time to do the people's business.
There is a better way. Set up a campaign finance department that collects all donations. Then hands out the donations evenly to every candidate. This will make things fair and keep it anonymous to the candidate
but is everyone really gonna want to pay more taxes for that?
Funding House Senate and Presidential elections would be the best tax dollars you would ever spend. It does not have to be the obscene amounts we presently spend. If you consider how much of your tax dollars are presently wasted propping up failed banks, its chump change.
i agree that is a beneficial direction for our government, and that those tax dollars are indeed well spent, but no one seems to be willing to pay any more at all. we need to stop lobbying, from both corporations AND unions
You need to start including all 99%. Palin attacked Republican party corruption in Alaska; the Dems backed her -- until she ran for VP. Then she had no one backing her. Look again everytime you get sic'ced on one of the 99%.
I didn't say she wasn't part of the 99%, I said she did not accurately portray the original tea party.
She makes over a mil a year right now. That's in the 1 % category.
so... making over a mil/year automatically puts you in the 1%? are ALL muslims terrorists?
i thought fighting for the separation of Corporation and State was more the cause here... the greed of those playing a political & financial chess game where they set the rules; all at the cost of the pawns.
not showing aggression towards anybody who makes over the $999,999 mark. hell, with that mindset, where are the lottery winners from any state or national drawing over a million dollars? or even the ones who broke their backs to gain their wealth over an entire lifetime. I've seen this type of commentary a number of times across multiple sites. Let's not lose our common sense.
Great post!!!! I think the lack of a common straight forward list of demands allows people to interject their personal and at times confused perspectives, making our cause appear that much murkier. To me we the 99%ers are those that have no voice in this country. It doesn't matter if you are a Republican, Independent, Democrat, Tea Partier, believe in Socialism or Capitalism. Contrary to what you believe none of us actually has a voice in this county. We have been taught to believe that if we elect our respective parties into power that our goals and ideas will be done. Well guess what people, it won’t. The only people in this county with a voice are the 1%ers!
Who are the 1%ers you may ask? Well I say they are the large corporations and special interest groups who TRULY run this country. They are the groups of individuals who spend millions upon millions of dollars each year to convince YOUR congressman, YOUR senator, YOUR President to do what best suits them regardless as to what's in the best interest of the rest of the 99% of this country.
Think about it, the root of every problem we face as a county regardless as to political beliefs boils down who's willing to pay the most money to see their agenda done. So until we fix this system of legalized BRIBERY also known as lobbying this country will never ever be the place we dreamed that it could be.
Oh and if you don't believe me, ask yourself when was the last time you tracked down your congressman or senator in the capital between meetings and offered up a large some of money in order to see a piece of legislation passed that best interested you?
What gets me is why are we arguing so long on this subject of higher taxes. They were raised countless times in the past with really no problem. Why is it so hard this time around?
Only if she got that mil or uses that mil in a corrupt way.
Palin is a well paid tool, makes her money peddling fear, hate and dinosaurs. that's her role.
So do news anchors, doesn't make them the 1%
wait.....Palin sells dinosaurs? I didn't know she was a......Palin-otologist.... OHHHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
zing ;D
The Class War is the common goal.
If you want to appeal to a broad range you need to keep it simple. End Bought Government. Our representatives must represent people not money. I don't believe that this is what the Tea Party is working for. The representatives they elected to Congress in 2010 all signed the Americans for Tax Reform pledge which protects the monied interests from higher taxes, and undermines the government by preventing it from collecting the revenue it needs to function. The pledge also blocks a second way that the government might use to increase taxes, elimination of deductions and credits. According to the pledge, there would have to be an equal reduction in marginal tax rates which would block the government from increasing revenue. I don't see how the Tea Party caucus that entered the House in 2010 has done anything to make the government more responsive to people.
OMG....Their basic premise is the government SPENDS way too much. They DO NOT need more money, they need to SPEND less, way less! Undermining the government by preventing if from collecting the revenue it needs to function??!! How many TRILLIONS do you believe is necessary? Whatever the liberals want is fine by you I guess. This MUST be stopped and quickly. All you think about is take take take and more take.... when is revenue enough already? UGH....
Revenue in 2010 was lower than it was in 1998 due to the 2001 tax cuts and the recession. It's so far out of alignment with spending that it would be impossible to balance the budget by cuts in spending alone. And we have to do better than just balance the budget if we want to start paying down the accumulated debt. Are you familiar with mathematics?
Dude, come on! If you really believe that first sentence, I feel sorry for you. Revenue was down due to the enormous amount of people an CORPORATIONS not making money any more due to the failed policies of BHO. I certainly started with Bush, but it's gone wild since.
Actually, balancing our budget would not be all that difficult. First, they need to abolish "baseline budgeting" which automatically increases spending by 8% every year no matter what. If you would just go back to budgets of 2007 or 08 and use that number as the starting point from which you could make minuscule 1% cuts each year, the budget would be balanced in 7 or 8 years. At least then you could start looking at the debt.
You act like taking more money from people will mean nothing to them and they will happily bend over and grab the ankles. At what point is there enough confiscation of the country's wealth? 80%, 100%.... you must realize that even if they took it ALL, it would only run the government for a few months.
You all rail about "big corporations" but absolutely no realization that BIG GOVERNMENT is what is causing the downfall... WAKE UP!
This is the danger of having unmoderated forums. There are people here like yourself who are just reciting the propaganda of the 1%.
yes indeed... slough off the truth because you CAN NOT face up to it! you all are reciting NOTHING except nonsense.... When do you all start pulling the millionaires out of their homes?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/end-the-federal-reserve-boardtomorrow/
Stop arguing about stupid shit and focus on ending the Federal Reserve Board. Nothing will change until this Ponzi scheme is illuminated and dismantled!
Viva la Resistance!
A mindless mob would better define this motley crew.
You are right, mob rule does not work, We need to elect delegates to convene a new congress and vote on a platform and list of grievances, Please look at this plan and approve it or propose a better one:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
This is just scary. #7, 8 are somewhat palatable but most are just contrary to the basic belief in this nation... FREEDOM! Are there going to be injustices or other grievances in a FREE society... of course! You cannot legislate these things out of existence. We are built on the Constitution and you cannot just ignore that because you have a grievance somewhere.
Why is it in #5 it says get rid of tax subsidies and loopholes yet in #14 you go back to giving tax incentives... ??? You have a system of Representatives and the Founding Fathers made sure that change could not happen quickly. Why can't you use all this energy and time to elect leaders that will get us back to Constitutional government?
these 20 points are samples issues. the 870 delegates will draw up the petition of grievances; at a minimum all private contributions and promises of future employment to politicians and their family members must end now because it is nothing but bribery.
So what you are saying is all politicians, their children, spouses, grandchildren, etc, could never work again outside of their political career seeing as pretty much all commerce/ business is regulated at this point.... You better be paying them some serious dough for THAT gig because only a moron would agree to be a representative.
This list exemplifies my problems with "occupiers".... there is no actual thinking going on, just a bunch of individual wish lists pouring out
I would take an honest moron over a corrupt, bought politician in a NY minute.
That is your answer to an absolute disaster of an idea that you all are spouting as the second coming. We can go down that list one by one to point out the folly of what you are saying, but then I guess I would get some high schoolish response like this.....
"As I have stated before, this is just a MOB with no logical thinking"
You're like the guy standing on the drawbridge over the moat by Dracula's castle when the villagers arrive with pitchforks, torches, and priests bearing holy water and sharp stakes.
"Hold on a minute! You're just an angry mob! WHere's your spokesman! What are your demands!"
Take a look at the name of this protest and you'll be able to figure out what we want. We're here to put a stake in the vampire's heart.
I am a professional. I am doing my duty in a war overseas that doesn't represent me. I support and applaud these protestors for finally standing up against American oppression. These are intelligent people from all walks of life who recognize that there is a serious domestic enemy within our midst and have the courage to stand against it. It is an enemy who in the name of personal gain oppresses and impoverishes the masses. This is just as much an oppressive regime as Saddam's or the taliban and just as dangerous to America. We as a united front must be willing to recognize the enemy is real and that the problems placed on us by this enemy are serious. There aren't going to be any quick fixes or easy solutions but we have to be willing to open up serious dialog to find solutions to the problems in our government and financial sector. We cannot afford as a nation to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that these problems don’t exist. We need transparency in government and within all departments of government. If ours is truly a government of, by and for the people then it is up to us to make sure that legislators are performing their duties in the best interests of the nation as a whole. In the words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” I would add that oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Thank you.
Wisely Spoken!
There isn't any way to fix the system! The system IS the problem! It's obsolete. The unemployment rate is only going to go higher. It's Economics 101. I see people constantly talking about "job creation." That's insane! Do you understand why companies create jobs? It's not because they're having a good quarter or year and have a lot of cash on hand so they can "create jobs" for the betterment of society. No! They "create jobs" because they have a demand for human labor. For the most part, the demand for human labor is declining all over society and it has been further propelled due to the recession. The reason why there isn't as much of a demand for human labor is because of advances in technology. Computers and robotics are much more efficient than humans, therefore, companies prefer automated machine labor over human labor.
This is the #1 reason for our economic difficulties. I work with the 1% and they know this is the reason, but no one wants to talk about it, because the solutions are too radical for comfort. If someone important came out and said this publicly, they would be chastised for it. Obama tried to have a conversation a while back when he said something like, "the reason there are no jobs is because of ATMs...". Google it. He was chastised by both sides of the aisle. The White House knows this, but they are afraid, rightly so, to really push the issue.
The problem is such an obvious one but most people just can't see it. Maybe because they don't want to? Look around you! Look at your Macbooks, your smartphones, self check out lines, online retail, automated customer service, paying your bills online, downloading music/movies illegally or legally, kiosks at airports, automated trains at airports, ATMs, online banking, online bill paying, automated warehouses, automated trading on Wall St., etc. etc. This list is only going to get longer with time. I just read about automated pharmacists: http://singularityhub.com/2010/05/09/robot-pharmacists-are-picking-your-medications-literally/
Here's another good link: http://singularityhub.com/2011/09/12/robotic-labor-taking-over-the-world-you-bet-here-are-the-details/
Our legitimate unemployment rate is estimated at between 16% to 21% right now. The government calculates the unemployment rate to make it look better than it is for those that don't know that. You can google that to check it out. In a decade, we may be around 35% if not higher. Some very smart folks are talking about this. Marshall Brain and Jacque Fresco are 2 that come to mind. CNN had an editorial on it not too long ago. http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/09/07/rushkoff.jobs.obsolete/
Buuuuut, we can not fix the system! We can not end corruption! Our society has been corrupt since the beginning, people just pay more attention to it when times are bad. Maybe people just have this romantic idea of fighting good vs. evil in a sort of theatrical way. What I'm afraid is going to happen is this movement is going to push BS demands "Campaign finance reform, blah blah blah." No different than the tea party "lower taxes, blah blah blah". Same shit that's been going on for decades, just two opposing sides screaming and yelling while the elephant in the room is just growing more and more. We need a new system, perhaps a resource based economy. The change won't happen overnight, it will take decades to happen. It would be good if it was started now but I don't see that happening. Things will have to get a whole lot worse in my opinion before the majority open their eyes and begin to vacate the current system.
"Fix our Democracy!"
We're a republic.
I understand the system is broken, and I have been it's victim multiple times, but the ends do not justify the means in this situation. I see your side... well I think I do... my side looks like this... I was unjustly let go of a job of four years only to have my employer falsify documentation the one time I filed for unemployment, I have worked since I was 13 and never considered unemployment as an option until I was fucked out of my job by a greedy manager. I am saddled with student loan debt with a relatively useless degree because I left engineering after two years, believing the hype in the degree I received (economics... ugh). I was treated differently than a classmate on a test that caused me to lose an entire letter grade. I filed a grade grievance asking for a chance to take the part of the test she had, turned in mine and her copies of the test as evidence, one year later the case was resolved in favor of the teacher, and I was stuck with a B instead of an A.
I could go on for quite some time. Greed, selfishness, lack of compassion, these are what I feel we are truly fighting, and the ways in which they have become protected actions for select few, while the rest of us still have to play by the rules. "Even a dog knows the difference between being stepped on and being kicked." We're tired of being kicked.
Now go learn democracy vs republic please. We need to save our republic and the only way to do that is through congress. So write your congressman, but be specific about the issues and specifically name bills you are concerned about or you will fall on deaf ears. Run for congress even, or at least vote for somebody who's stances you believe in.
WE ALREADY HAD THE POWER BUT RELINQUISHED IT THROUGH OUR OWN INACTION OR FAULTY ACTION. TAKE IT BACK? PUT SOMEBODY IN CHARGE THAT ISN'T A FUCKING EMPTY SUIT ALREADY.
I knw the difference. I want a combination of republic and democracy.
The romans failed with their republic. The greek failed with their democracy.
Our "republic" isn't representing us anymore. That is the point of all this. We want a republic to take care of big decisions, such as wars. But we want more of a direct say in how our government is run!
Then put forth ideas of how that would work. Explain how we can have our republic system for "big decisions," also define what is a big decision, and explain how little decisions would be taken care of. Would little decisions be through a direct vote of the people?
I understand fully the republic is not representing us anymore, thats why I said: We already had the power but relinquished it through our own inaction or faulty action. Take it back? Put somebody in charge that isn't a fucking empty suit.
Who did you vote for congress/senate last election? Change yourself before you change the world.
It doesn't matter who you vote for, they all become corrupt or are to stupid to get anything done.
So we're all just fucked or what?
You say you want a republic/democracy combo and that's what we already have. When you say you want a direct say in how the government is run, what does that mean? Elaborate. You still have not answered my questions from the first post.
I want to be able to vote on more policies, such as obamacare that got really politicized really fast and our reps were useless
Again, Elaborate. What does voting on more policies mean? Do you advocate a direct vote from all citizens to pass any laws? What are you supporting? You still have not laid it out a definition for your words and that is all I am asking.
What is the combo of republic and democracy you are in favor of? What is the form of this for the people by the people that is different from our current structure?
Yes I want to have a direct vote for laws. Maybe not all, but at least all of the ones that will directly effect me. For example, I would have liked to vote on the Patriot Act. As for what I am supporting, I do not know what you mean, I support a government that works with and for it's people, not just for itself. A combo between republic and democracy means, I want things to be how they are now (Senate, HoR) With less greed and corruption obviously. AND I want to be able to directly vote on policies that effect me.
The trolls are just waiting to see if we are legit. No one can blame Americans for being skeptical and pessimistic after what we have all been through since 911 and before. Thank you so much for posting this and sharing this, it is truly appreciated.
http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/94223
You see the current situation and the root it is born from rests upon a very simple mathematical formula
supply = demand
With that in mind, all Americans and the rest of the world has to do in the initial stage is to stop the demand and the suppliers will automatically crumble. There are no need for protests. Simply concentrate on ending demand and the rest will happen by itself. Corporations will close down automatically, Banks will fall and the Rich will go bankrupt because they too depend on the 99% demand.
If the current situation is not approached in this way it will never work. The Junkie has to get of the Drug, suffer the withdrawal symptoms and then recover and find better ways of living. Greed a pleasant sensation within the human body which propels a being into wanting more and multiplying of that sensation must then be addressed and ways of understanding this effect be found and ultimately overcome.
Attack the [supply = demand] formula and you guys will have a changed world in no time at all and you would not have lifted a finger.
The dealers count on you remaining addicted, therefore do not take you seriously. They know that most will never give up fashion, technology, entertainment etc.
Good Ideas. My previous analysis is similar and may help as follows:
You'll notice, when you watch the news and a bottom line issue comes up that could worry you, there is always some preacher railing about some social issues that will make you mad. Doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum you are on -- they will make you mad. You get mad and you forget about that factory moving to China or about the teacher's strike or the Wallstreet bailouts. I could go on. We must not let the red herrings into our thinking and into our protest.
We have submitted a proposed plan and will ask that the general assembly vote on moving it forward on Saturday if they are all not in jail.
You may see the draft declaration and proposed action plan here:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
The single goal every 99% should have is to put an end the corruption with money that is bleeding our country from the inside out. Anonymous is correct, is it worth saving the country for your children, your future. Push aside politics for one or two seasons and let somebody get in there and fix this disaster. Then we can begin to heal. With the 99% going on, all those smaller concerns will just fall to the side anyway. We have to unite for a common goal.
Funny American
Biggest problem - the US is not a Democracy. It is a republic. Don't believe me? Read the Federalist Papers which is basically the instruction manual to our Constitution. All of our Founders thankfully believed pure Democracy was as evil as Marxism...because it is Marxism. The Rule of Law protects individual rights, and rights of the minority. The "99%" can continue following their ideal of wanting to deprive some people, of something, for the "greater good" of a larger group. But no one with a classical education will ever take you seriously.
you never know what sort of keyboard commando's lurk behind usernames.
Finnally, just because someone stood against you yesterday, doesn't mean they are against you today. Some people will never change, but in today's society held together by FEAR, you never know what some people are thinking or feeling on the inside. Most people are scared to say what the really want.
OWS stays long enough, and that fear will diminish.
The clear concise goal should be the demand for Social Responsibility in business and finance and especially in government. The term may sound socialist but it is not. It means the ethical, moral and legal obligations that institutions owe the people they impact (ie. everyday citizens, tax payers, voters, men and women in the military, employees, customers, everyone etc.), not just stockholders or special interests. Social Responsibility means businesses, governments and financial institutions have an ethical obligation to conduct themselves in a manner that doesn't have a negative impact on the very people they are supposed to serve.
The People WANT their Democracy back, regardless of political affiliation. Democracy has been hijacked by corruption. The People WANT opportunities....NOT handouts. Everything else has been collateral damage. The MAJORITY of PEOPLE ARE FED UP with the Status Quo. The list of demands may be long and diverse but it all fits under A SINGLE HEADING.and has a name.....Its called SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY.
I believe there are still some decent, people left in our Government, In our businesses and in our financial sector, and the need to call upon their guts and integrity to join the ranks against all the malfeasance that has invaded every sector of our society. If the bad guys can be isolated, they will soon lose their power. End the corruption now and demand accountability....Our children and grandchildren deserve better than the sullied, broken system we have now.
Bad Cop No Donut !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Try this for a goal of the movement
This is probably the best post on these forums... I'm just bumping this up so people will see and hopefully read it.
I agree! the whole system needs to be changed, not just a list of demands
I completely agree with what you are saying! we need to find a way to get all our ideas heard! actually enacted in todays government! here is my idea for a direction http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-union-of-all-dissatisfied-peoples-ows-and-even-t/
If your the father, these are your children, and if you won't stand w/ your sons and or daughters, I will (honor them as they are honoring you). I've seen the wicked fruit of your vine Destroy the man who lacks a strong mind Human pride sings a vengeful song Inspired by the times you've been walked on My stage is shared by many millions Who lift their hands up high because they feel this We are one We are strong The more you hold us down the more we press on (What if?/ Creed/ Human Clay)
Politics and patriotism? As much as certain people may be in some kind of delusional denial, it's about the establishment of this country, an idea (a good one), not any political party and/or form of government. Proclamation of direction was spoken as true fact. What the H E double hockey sticks are we still doing here? They have life by the short hairs and they are straight up F bombing it up. All this talk of doing away with Social Security (something that shouldn't have been gambled away because it should have never been touched), just what does that exactly mean, doing away with it or calling something else, like just another move for project save own ass? P.S. No you can't take "it" (whatever) with you, why? Because "it" isn't yours. Now if someone would like to go hide in a hole somewhere, good luck (FYI don't come out).
You sir, are very confusing and amusing. Your comment did not have substance, sense, direction, verified facts, nor did it have anything to do with my thread.
I do thank you for taking the time to read my post, if you indeed did.
"I'm" confusing? This whole situation is the confusion which was the reason for whole point and no answers to rightful question (and response) is the only way to follow the bread crumb trail, actually back to where it leads. But it sure more than just seems that we are trying to track someone in the snow who is wearing their snowshoes on backwards.
Someone asked if "I" was a bot, that could be someone taking an abbreviation and/or term in a different text
Ya I know, didn't mean to be confusing, just trying to connect, help and "express ideas to unify"/ then someone cuts in (wife/daughters/son/two grand kids etc.) looking to piss everyone else off (I was a CNA for thirteen years a.k.a. yeeha/I'm here to help) not to mention when 'I" was a child "OUR" action figure was eagle eye G.I. Joe/I never did get "into" tweets etc. only E-mails/+ haven't slept/can't/this has approached the unreal/RUSH: Limelight
These two comments have made ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.
You may be a bot.
"MAYBE" you are.
I think just saying END THE FED confuses alot of just regular ppl who don't even know what that means. But saying things like, "fix the system!" or "end the corruption!" isn't really effective either. We need an effective slogan that makes sense to most ppl, especially those are aren't really into politics. Something like, "Stop driving up the prices of gasoline!" or "Tax the Rich and not the rest of us! We can't take anymore"...I can relate to things like that. I think most people can. These things like the government raising taxes and the rich not being taxed, and rising inflation are things everyone can relate to.
The tax thing will drive republicans away.
RAISE EVERY VOICE! SOUND EVERY COMPLAINT!
Wall Street began by building a wall. Now, at last, focus has come to the wall itself.
There are times when action is so much more effective than words. WHERE is so much more important right now than an iron-bound manifesto. By giving a place in the General Assembly for ALL, every injustice will be heard. We cannot continue to plug every hole in the dike; there are too many issues for us to take care of; we just do not have enough fingers. So we will turn our attention to the source of our troubles. By trusting in EVOLUTION we will ultimately hit the target.
I believe that if we persevere and continue to grow -- WE MUST! -- the aim will become pellucid for all!
I thank every contribution toward unifying our VOICE, but do not become disappointed if your suggestion is not immediately embraced. Keep suggesting, keep contributing; if your idea is at center, it will rise to the top, do not doubt it.
Yes, but we won't grow, if our members keep talking about socialism and anarchy.
Thank you so much for this post. You make me want to get off the couch and get out there. I do really hope there are more people like you in this movement.
There are, and there is a new website coming to flush them out.
The only way to change anything is at the ballot box. Republican governors and legislators in key battleground states (Ohio, Florida, Wisconsin and others) are passing voter ID laws that are about to disenfranchise millions of mostly Democratic voters. the Occupy Movement should be seriously addressing this issue and seeking to register.voters for 2012.
Please further explain this claim
The passion in this movement appears to be on taking back the government for the people and away from corporate interests which have hijacked it. The rest of the issues flow from this basic problem. What feeds the corporate takeover is money and the corporations' ability to use it to influence the political process against the people. However, I do not think simply talking about campaign finance reform will be "sexy" enough for the public to care about. I think it needs to be a multi-prong attack. First: Demand a constitutional amendment only allowing natural persons to participate in the political process and to only allow state funding of elections. (The boring but highly necessary goal). We then need some red meat to send to the people. Here are some suggestions. Demand a return to the republican tax rates on the rich in the first term of the Reagan Presidency - around 50% (Hard to turn down Reagan). Demand nearly free higher education and forgive student loans at least to a certain extent. Demand that the government cannot enter into plea bargains with the banks and other corporations to pay money to avoid criminal liability. Perhaps have a maximum wage law. Set it high but make it impossible to earn over $10 million a year or something. The possibilities are endless.
I agree with most of these (love the reagan thing.) But there are nearly free higher education schools, they are called community colleges. I chose to go to a school that costs $60,000 a year because I knew I would get more out of it, more opportunities would be available, and that with that education and the right field of study, i could easily make all of that money back to pay it off. If you don't feel like you can do that with the way things are going, then transfer to a cheaper school. OR transfer to a school that is easier to get into, chances are they will give you a full ride.
I initially went to community college and paid for the entire thing by working part-time at Subway.
My point is, you get what you put in. You have to do the math before you go to Harvard for an art major.
Well, community college is less expensive, but to get a 4 year degree the costs are quite high even at a state school. It is $31K per year at University of California in state including room and board. That is a lot to expect an 18 year old person to handle even with loans, work and help from parents. Not everyone is doing an art major either.
Here is the poor person's guide to affording school: (I am a highschool mentor in an inner city, so I am speaking from experience)
2 years at community college! You could settle for an associates. Or....
Transfer for 2 years at a state school!
Also, live with your parents! Room and board is a complete SCAM. ($1300/mo for a closet shared with another person? wtf that should be illegal!!!)
So, here is the math:
Senior year of high school, get a job: Work at price chopper or something: 20 hrs/wk at $7/hr (that was my minimum wage, it is higher now, so I won't include the 50 cent tax lol) =
$140 a week. $520 a month
We will say you spend all fall looking for a job and start working in January of your senior year.
9 months of working at $520 a month = $4680
The average cost of community college is $2671 a year. $2671 x 2 = $5342 You already have almost enough money saved to pay for your first two years! YAY!
The average cost of public 4 year school tuition is about $7500. You have 2 more years to go after CC sooo: $7500 x 2 = $15,000
OKAY here we go! The final stretch until you have a BA! You have 24 months during your CC career to make that money. Let us say you keep the same job with no raises.
$520 x 24 = $12,480
$12,480 - 662 (used to top off your CC bill) = $11,818
You need $15,000 so
$15,000 - $11,818 = $3182
You can continue working during these last 2 years. But you will need $3182 before the second year:
520 x 12 =$6240
You have made more than enough! :D
You now can leave college without any debt, and with enough money saved up to buy a car. On top of that, it has been noted that Community College graduates make more money than everyone else, those haven't been confirmed but think about it.
You don't need your parents, or the government, or your parents. If you WANT debt, make sure you have a career in mind that will make money to make up the debt.
altho government intervention is typically looked down upon in this country as "socialist" or "communist" it is exactly what we needed back in the 1980s in order to keep the banks from becoming too deregulated <- which is what led to this economic crisis. and now more regulations on the banks is what we should strive for. we must start this change by demanding termination of the government and bank officials who were the leading cause of the corruption in the financial industry. many who are on obamas staff were apart of this corruption. just watch inside job it will explain it all.
I completely agree. A movement that is organic will not be organized overnight but at some point it has to be, otherwise, just as you say it will loose it's support and it's power. It has to be a movement 'for' something and it has to be actionable.
Completely agree!
There is a lot of sense in this post. The new political reality may have to recoginize many different voices and views, But all these voices better find some harmony over certain key issues.
I agree with u, I was in the mortgage business for 5+ years, I saw a lot of what happened that the media nor anyone talks about, but guess what.. it wasn't capitalism. Everyone should be angry about how things are, but we need to organize and fight for a government for the people, and this means not supporting any one party, Democrat or Republican. The idea that in a country as big and diverse as the U.S. that we can all put money in the pot and evenly distribute it is retarded. If u really look into what happened in housing, yes, it was greed, but it was also the forcing of loaning to underserved communities(bad credit/low income), subsidizing the loans(fannie & freddie), lenders who didnt care who they loaned to because they gov bought and repackaged those securities, and people using their homes as a stock in their portfolio. Yeah, this is only one of many issues, but I don't see anybody standing up to battle facebook, ebay, apple, or any other corporations, why? because they provide a service that people buy or use and that drives their growth(capitalism), unlike our financial industry which uses their resources to dominate and control all aspects of our government which was meant to be for the people(hint hint* not capitalism). So please, educate yourself, dont make this into a socialist/marxist movement. Have one focus, which is to get our government out of the control of the elite few, and leave me to live my life they way I choose as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else.
This brings up some good points and needs to be heard. Please re write this with a focus on how it is not the individuals complete fault but the banks, and how. Also on how this differs from capitalism. The world needs to hear these things. Then give it a fancy enticing title. I look forward to reading it
You all are great! I feel the only way we can get back on safe financial footing again is to close the Enron Loophole for oil speculators and bring back The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, which prevented the current banking and insurance scams/loopholes. After all, it worked great until late 90's when Congress threw it out. Since then, like prior to 1933, we are experiencing what our country went though then, total Wall Street greed with no penalties, its all legal now...Thanks to the architects of our new system in 1999, President Clinton and Senator Gramm. Cheers to all that are involved! Jim
Why we need Glass-Steagall to be reinstated:
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp#axzz1aPEc3wXj http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/09/19/shattering-the-glass-steagall-act/
Why are oil prices high?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL5UxScgUw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdtTGYQBMU&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNp0y0SjOkY&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-kExdTgNZA&feature=channel
we don't need to do anything. just keep using your big boy or girl voice and stand your ground. they know what the problems are because they created them.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-end-the-federal-reserve-and-what-do-you-replac/
We have so much technical knowhow yet we as a nation operate so inefficiently. Why? There are so many people out of work. Why? We have so much to accomplish. We are in 14.8 trillion dollars of debt. This is the government’s job to figure out. Our current government is inefficient and ineffective. They continue to indebt our country via the Federal Reserve Board. We will not give up until the Federal Reserve Board is fired by the United States government. We will not give up until a constitutional amendment takes the money out of politics.
This isn't an attack on the rich. There is nothing wrong with being rich. There is a problem with being rich and stealing from the poor. There is a problem with few people controlling the wealth, and to that end there is a problem when those who control the wealth are not helping their country and society progress.
How do the rich steal from the poor, you might ask?
Think about it like this: wealthy individuals put extra money in the banking system in order to earn more money without doing anything productive. On the other hand, poor individuals borrow money from the bank which they then pay interest on, in order to grow the money of rich people. Much of the middle and lower class inevitably become enslaved to their debt. Is that the free market? An endless cycle of debt? An economy which utilizes wars and exploitation to sustain itself. Fuck naw. That aint right. That aint American.
Whether you'd like to believe it or not, we are all slaves to the mass debt that America has accrued over the years. What will we do? How can we break free?
End the Federal Reserve. It's unconstitutional and damn-fucking immoral.
Some say real free-market economics is the best system, although we've never really seen what it looks like. The current fractional reserve banking system is not the free market. In my opinion the most innovative, necessary, and implementable solution is a resource based economy, when you take the 14.8 trillion dollars of debt into consideration.
Project Earth: A Resource Based Economy Explained http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
If you love capitalism, but hate the Federal Reserve, ask yourself this: if the current market is a failure, how can you erase the world's debt? We in the US owe the world everything. Not only are we indebted to the world literally, but we, the leaders of the free world, have been leading the destruction of the environment for how long? Do we not owe it to the world to fix it? We have much of the world's resources. We have one of the greatest education system in the world. What are we doing wrong?!?! Why do we not take it upon ourselves to construct a sustainable global economy that is based on the natural resources of the planet and use this economy the repay our debt to the world. I know people love to fantasize about the wealthy and powerful America, but listen, we're indebted to the world! Time to grow a pair and pay the world back. And I know, a resource based economy is “Communist” and “Utopian;” STOP ASSIGNING MEAINGLESS WORDS TO IDEAS. The system is a resource based economy, and it is neither communist nor utopian. It is a progressive economy that is backed by tangible items and utilizes the scientific method to achieve optimal efficiency.
And why should the American people care? Because the United States of America is in 14.8 trillion dollars of debt. The financial system is set to crash, leaving the American people to suffer through years of economic depression. There is nothing Ben Bernanke can do about it, there is nothing Tim Geithner can do about it. The people of the United States did not accrue this massive debt. Our irresponsible, ineffective, and inefficient government hired the Federal Reserve Board so that they could print all of the money in the world. This, my friends is unconstitutional. They printed money to go to war, they printed money to bailout those who were too big to fail.
NO MORE! NO MORE WILL WE FOLLOW SUCH IRRESPONSIBLE LEADERSHIP.
END THE FED.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFz1VVXsWRU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe0fGXzKb1o&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lac9O7dHHfo&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k http://www.scribd.com/doc/6400129/End-the-Fed-Nationwide-Rally-Newsletter http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/09/24/the-federal-reserve-vs-the-constitution/ http://dmc.members.sonic.net/sentinel/naij2.html http://drrobertowens.com/2011/09/30/is-the-federal-reserve-constitutional/ http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531 http://www.healthfreedom.info/Federal_Reserve_Fraud.htm
the very nature of a protest makes all of us trolls. why are you holding free speech in one hand while trying to squash it with the other?
if it's to much, thin skinned, go home. change is not for the weak.
I'm not calling the protestors trolls, the trolls are the ones on this form making fun of peope just to get a laugh.
I didn't tell anyone to shut up, I told them to focus. We can either be a disco ball, or a laser beam
just don't reply to them and they will get bored and go home.
We cannot fix that which is already broken, failed Humanity, and will continue to fail Humanity if it is perpetuted.
OWS is all about Being The Change You Wish To See In The World.
As soon as you start to use old paradigm words and concepts such as "leader", spokesman", "left", "right" "demands" and so on and so on, you betray the very Ethos of OWS and the embryonic movement is lost. The "mainstream media will see to that..
The old paradigm has totally failed. It does not work, never has worked, and can only bring misery and inequality, and eventually enslavement.
Trying to incorporate all or part of the old paradigm will not bring the changes we wish for.
The people on the ground at OWS are Living That Change, and doing so beautifully and perfectly in the spirit of the movement on the ground.
Pease stop being an airmchair actyivist and demanding that OWS should conform to your ideals in accordance with your own needs.
Please Can We Simply Be The Change We Wish To See In The World, which requires no thought or effort - It Is Our Natural State of Being.
nicely put
You make some excellent points and have that rare capacity for frank critical self evaluation.
There are a lot of problems with the nascent movement currently, some of which you mention.
One is, a lot of it just looks silly. There are a lot of kids out there literally dressing up in 1960s period costume, complete with tambourines and peace signs and aping the sort of hippie dances they've seen done in old documentary film footage of Woodstock or late 60s San Francisco. What do college kids having a 60s theme party have to do with serious politics?
Second, it's too leftist. Leftist movements led by hardcore ideolgical academics will have no broad appeal and the kids will go home once the novelty of this thing wears off. There are real grievances that can resonate with the masses of working people, the soccer moms and suburban dads and so forth. You don't have to be a Marxist to recognize that the 1% has corrupted democracy in this country by buying politicians; they don't like the fact that 1% of the population has 99% of the political influence.
But the far left doesn't represent the 99%, they're just another sort of 1%. There needs to be a more aggressive outreach to older people, soccer mom types, etc; a broader cross of the 99%. the crowds look disproportionately young 'trustafarian' types.
Anyway, good post.
Sorry to say this but a democracy isn't designed to be fair. One opinion vs another means someone gets the short end of the stick every time a vote is made.
What we need are decisions made based on evidence.
As for the goal, I hope everyone here wants to help "create a humane society with sustainable abundance" because putting new bandaids on old problems won't address the core issues.
No, dual party democracy isn't designed to be fare. Half get what they want, half don't.
With proportional representation, there are multiple parties that more accurately represent their members. Let me put it in a simplistic view:
Say there are 5 parties: One represents the NE, one represents the NW one represents the SE, one the SW and one the middle.
Whoever has more supporters, get a larger proportional chunk of the congress pie. BUT EVERYONE gets a chunk. So instead of having two parties at a stalemate, we have proportional representation in government. Then, it is fair. Because it will show that, for example, the NW party, who only have, say 10% support, Get 10% of the say. So they can't pass a law 90% of the country doesn't want, but they are needed to help obtain a majority. So comprimise would be necessary.
This would work if people were rational, ethical, and well informed about the issue they vote on.
The problem is many are not rational, ethical, nor well informed. And even then following the majority would not a guarantee that the issue will be resolved, especially if it is technical.
For example we can't vote on the best way to make roads, airplanes, or perform surgery. The decision is based on the evidence collected by well informed individuals collaborating and testing their ideas. If they are mistaken, their ideas are tested 'before' implementing them.
Democracy is well intentioned but it doesn't test, it just implements. So mistakes are often discovered after they are made rather than before.
When there is no technical origin to the issue then a democratic vote is fine. For everything else the scientific method > opinion.
You are right. But we don't vote for logistics like that. We vote whether we think fixing roads here are important enough for our tax dollars, and how much we want to spend.
That is true.
Money itself limits our capabilities because of how it functions and how it inevitably leads to corruption.
Money requires scarcity (a lack of something) in order to be useful as a tool for distributing goods/services
Money limits access to goods/services
This limitation creates inequality which can only be justified through the belief of 'fair' competition
This unequal access to desired goods/services eventually leads to unethical and immoral conduct. The 'haves' attempt to solidify their unrestricted access (maintain profitability) and the 'have nots' do whatever they can to obtain access(commit 'crimes').
So in actuality access is what is most important. e.g. Libraries make access to books easy
The question is then, what do we need to do in order create an abundance of access to the Needs of humanity in a sustainable way?
But to do this we require a completely different approach more effective and efficient than the existing systems. Both the money system and the political system must be released in favor of a resource based economy.
http://thevenusproject.com/
Why Occupy Wall Street? Because if we don't stop the corruption of the body politic, NOTHING can change 1) Demand the re-instatement of Glass Steagal 2) Demand a constitutional amendment to forever remove the lie that $$ = free speech, reverse Citizen United 3) Demand the restoration of the Fairness Doctrine 4) Demand Campaign finance reform. Make political contributions the venue of the individual only. Remove all PACS or bundled money or candidate advocacy. Raise the limit on what an individual can contribute to 10% of the average annual wage for Americans and then cap ALL CONTRIBUTIONS for any political campaign or group at double that amount for ANY campaign year (i.e. no individual can spend more than 20K on ALL political campaigns they support..this will remove the inequity of the wealthy contributing millions by just sending the max to many campaigns).
5) Demand that gov't agency employees and all elected officials be prohibited from entering the employment of ANY PRIVATE SECTOR business or lobbying agency for which their agency or their votes had ANY connection for no less than 5 years. 6) Demand the immediate break up of the banks labeled as "too big to fail". (It is rediculous to allow our economic fate to remain in the hands of large globalized financial institutions that have not the least regard for the survival of your countries economy.) 7) Demand that no elected official be allowed to accept gifts, financial or non financial from ANY PARTY and make it punishable by jail time.
It's a start. But if you don't chop off the head of the snake which is unlimited $$ as a corrupting influence and the replacement for one person, one vote, NOTHING can change.
The head of the snake is the corrupt companies , the arms and legs are the corrupt politicians. We will kill the head by cutting off the arms and legs and letting it bleed out.
Basically, we are at Wall st (and all across the world) To show the companies, we KNOW who are pulling the strings, we won't stand for it anymore, and we will fix the government so the companies can't financially rape us anymore
but the head holds the power... and you'll never get near the arms and legs because of that $$ power that controls them
The problem is, while the corporations may pull the strings, we hold the scissors. Yes, once in office, corporations buy legislative votes. But it is us who vote them into office, the corporations must rely on our easily influenced minds. If we just educate everyone about this, we already win on one front.
we do.. but in order to be able to use those scissors... we have to cut the strings where they originate. Election after election we are faced with only having candidates who are already owned by the entitled (with rare exception). There is a severe lack of diversity in our candidates. And the difficulties faced when an independent tries to get on the ballot is a very real barrier. One of the things that needs to be done is tearing down those barriers completely down. But the first step is to separate our political process from the wealth of corporate american and the entitled.
WE NEED PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION< all those various will fall in the process
YES!
Ignore the CONS and Fox Spews broadcasting hr after hr trying to bring you guys down!! Keep it up, more people are beginning to watch and see the truth!!
It's too late! The coming bitter cold and snow will soon suffocate the movement's iconic stage, (Wall Street). A very disappointing end. Even at this late stage, the movement continues to abdicate the urgency to tap into the emotional posture of the masses. They inexplicably refuse to to tap into the waves of rage and disaffection pleading at their doors. The OWS organizers proved themselves to be more propagandized and elitist than those whom they were insisting to rescue. What the movement didn't comprehend is that the masses were not asking to join a discourse on the failings of capitalism. Neither were they looking for lectures about the many governmental and social ills disenfranchising them. In a word: the masses were seeking leaders!; and this OWS movement failed them hands down. Why didn't a leadership form? Essentially, because the OWS movement founder Kalle Lasn (Ad Busters) is a most dubious character at best. The delusional utopian nature of the OWS creed/demands has Lasn's fingerprints all over it. Regardless, Lasn must have clearly recognized that his taking a public leadership role would have placed him under extreme srutiny; albeit with prejudice. The media would have had a field day exposing his nefarious past. No one, especially someone with the intellectual calibre and marketing acumen of Ad Busters, could possibly believe that the movement would remain effective when it was so severely disabled and leaderless. It's almost as if the Ad Busters crew decided to run against the weather clock; while at the same time collecting thousands of unaccounted Money Order donations. No, sad to say, this OWS movement was invented on the whim of the Ad Buster marketing team. I suspect that it's early success very much surprised even them. Clearly, the movement's present frail posture is ample evidence to the fact that it was never intended to grow and mature into a social force to be reckoned with. Otherwise, they would have recruited a consensus leadership and prepared for the next level: confronting the domination powers. So, OWS will extinguish itself with a frozen sneeze when the cold weather arrives in it's fury. Regardless of the many sincere genuine participants/followers, the closure of OWS in iconic NY Site will result in many more fraudulent pretences and start-ups nationwide between December and March. It will be Spring before something concrete and viable rises out of these ashes of disillusionment; just in time for the increased political forces coming into play for the 2012 Election.
This is one of the most intelligent things I have read on here. I agree 100 percent that something has to be done about the way our country is being run. Wall street is just a symptom of the bigger problem. Greed is the sickness that is infecting this country. It is the greedy people at the top feeding off the greedy people at the bottom. We need to fix the sickness and then the symptoms will go away. If the greedy people at the bottom would quit feeding the greedy people at the top we could end alot of this.
Yes, I agree!!!! "We need to UNITE under one common goal! Fix the system! Fix our Democracy! End the corruption! MAKE THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE!"
We are making a choice to end corruption in our country - to make the corporations accountable to the people, to end their power and return our country to the people. We don't need a new political party. We need our elected officials to be responsible and respectful.
It is time for the corporate giants to stop ruling our country and our world. It is time for our money system to be supportive of our citizens.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-union-of-all-dissatisfied-peoples-ows-and-even-t/ let us join and head towards tangible change in american political culture
Agreed
"The way we appear matters. You think it doesn't? The rest of the 99% is watching,"
I couldn't agree more strongly.
Nothing against hippies, longhairs, dirt punks and hipsters, but come on folks. People in conservative places are watching you on TV and trying to make up their minds about getting on board. Are you serious about a mass movement, or is this a big hippie party like the 1960s. Getting naked and painting yourself pink in front of a bunch of TV cameras is not going to play well for the churchgoing family in Texas or Iowa who may be out of work, foreclosed, no pension, and ready in many ways to join us.
Thank you
You are correct. The message needs to be simple and united. Fix our corrupt system that allows big money to set the agenda. Become a democracy again!
i am no troh. as 52 yr old country boy. i clearly understand this movement not to educated in my heart and in the pit of my soul beleive in this movement 110% godspeed and god bless the world
Educate people, expose the corruption in government, how it has become an extention of the fed. How it finances wars, and just recently murdered a US citizen because of what he said, without even a mock up trial.
Without a mock up trial? HELL other than the fact he had a beard, I haven't seen ANY information that proves he was a terrorist. Wheres my proof Obama! And don't give me some shit about an illegal document you wrote in the bathroom!
You can't write a document, designed to argue the case to kill someone, and then present it to yourself, and then randomly say, this paper makes it legal to kill an American Citizen. I say it makes it legal to Immpeach Obama.
Please read: http://occupywallst.org/forum/can-we-end-the-fed/
This isn't an attack on the rich. There is nothing wrong with being rich. There is a problem with being rich and stealing from the poor. There is a problem with few people controlling the wealth, and to that end there is a problem when those who control the wealth are not helping their country and society progress.
How do the rich steal from the poor?
Think about it like this. Rich people put extra money in the banking system in order to earn more money without doing anything productive. On the other hand, poor people borrow money from the bank which they then pay interest on, so that they can grow the bank account of rich people. Much of the middle class inevitably become enslaved to their debt. Is that the free market? An endless cycle of debt? An economy which utilizes war to sustain itself. Fuck naw. That aint right. That aint American.
Whether you'd like to believe it or not, we are all enslaved to the mass debt that America has accrued over the years. What will we do? How can we break free?
End the Federal Reserve. It's unconstitutional and damn-fucking immoral.
Some say real free-market economics is the best system, although we've never really seen what that looks like. The Federal Reserve squashed any hopes of a free-market economy. In my opinion the most innovative, necessary, and implementable solution is a resource based economy.
Project Earth: A Resource Based Economy Explained http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
If you love capitalism, but hate the Federal Reserve, ask yourself this: if the current market is a failure, how can you erase the world's debt? We in the US owe the world everything. Not only are we indebted to the world literally, but we, the leaders of the free world, have been leading the destruction of the environment for how long? Do we not owe it to the world to fix it? We have much of the world's resources, we have the greatest education system in the world, what are we doing wrong?!?! Why do we not take it upon ourselves to construct a sustainable global economy that is based on the natural resources of the planet and use this global economy the repay our debt to the world? I know people love to fantasize about the wealthy and powerful America, but listen, we're indebted to the world! Time to grow a pair and pay the world back. And I know, a resource based economy is “Communist” and “Utopian” STOP ASSIGNING MEAINGLESS WORDS TO IDEAS. The system is a resource based economy, and it is neither communist nor utopian.
People for an Honest, Equal Democracy with Uncorrupted Politics.
PHED UP.
That 99% of us can stand behind
That is quite awesome XD Someone pitch that!
There are 2 people who would want a list of demands from this group: 1-Those who would justify their own means at the expense of others 2-Those who would want to use political labeling for the purposes of herding their cattle into separate pens.
Yes, a list is not necessary yet. Not until we have the means to do something about it.
The list that is already there is not the 99% and makes people already look radical-throwing out the moderates, liberals, and conservatives alike. No offense, but specific demands that are there are not reasonable or to the point of what I was led to believe this group represented.
You are right, so no offense taken
I full heartedly agree!
I think that we are asking for too much at once. Sadly not all the 99% are conscious of what has lead us to this movement, making it difficult to understand why we are here. There are many layers of corruption and if we focused on one overall layer it would make more sense to those trying to understand. Or even for those who don't want to understand.
I'm not saying that any one layer is less important than another, but one overall idea should be the main focus in order to progress this movement to a solution. Because isn't a solution why all of this started in the first place? If our current legislative system can't address all of the issues our society/country faces, then how are we going to fix them ourselves overnight?
If this movement has done anything, it has at least reignited my faith that this country is not comprised of apathetic, passive bystanders who do nothing but talk about the ills without taking action against them. If we succeed in at least one area, we'll have the inspiration to tackle the next.
I would propose two things to improve the economy and create jobs.
1 - End the War on Drugs, which consumes over $1 trillion in taxes every year to control less than 10% of drug traffic. 2 - End the War on Humans to create consumer demand, because racial laws collapsed the economy in 1873, 1892, 1929, and 2007.
The War on Drugs does nothing to keep drugs away from children in exchange for the money it consumes, and these laws increase violent crime.
Immigration policies improve or destroy the economy depending upon which way immigrants are moving. When they move from US to Mexico, the Mexican economy improves and the US economy collapses. When the move from Mexico to US, the US economy improves and Mexico collapses.
The "war on drugs" should be simple. Increase punishment for drug dealers. Make all drugs illegal (including alcohol) or all drugs legal. If people can be trusted with alcohol I think they can be trusted with weed. It is unconstitutional to ban one drug, when another is more dangerous
its simply not good enough to stand around "occupying" park spaces holding teach ins. there's en established electoral system. if you don't like it- elect people that you know will work for your issues. it takes a bit of work to build effective political coalitions, and additional work to keep people aware of issues as they pop up. If you aren't familiar with it- go visit http://dailykos.com/. Ballot access laws severely limit candidates not registered as Democrat or Republican candidates. get involved with your local community. all politics is local.
The problem is, politics are corrupt and corrupting. Everyone we vote in fucks us. Why? 1) They get paid well to do so. 2) Their parties are all talk, and if you actually try to DO anything, the parties bitch at you. 3) Why? Because the parties have big business daddies and mommies.
We need to occupy to show: We are here, we are not going away. We need to occupy to draw attention to the issues. Would you be here right now if we didn't? We need to occupy so they can see our numbers grow. So they can be afraid. We need the politicians to fear us again. Fear us like we all fear our bosses. WE are their bosses. Then, when they fear us we need to say "PASS THESE AMENDMENTS TO MAKE THE POLITICAL SYSTEM WORK FOR US INSTEAD OF YOU OR GTFO"
at some point, when the weather is quite cold in certain parts of the country, occupying a park is not possible. the move to influencing a political system is what needs to be done. Defenestrating all 435 members of House in 2012 would be a good start. Do it again in 2014 if nothing changes. we will all lose if Obama loses in 2012. the way to get him or any politician to take notice is to defeat opponents at elections and keep pressure up during the non election times. americans have failed to do this for a good many years. the bailouts were 3 years ago. occupying congressional offices, state houses is the logical next step. Wisconsin did this and then followed up. OWS needs to prepare for the follow up.
We don't want Obama. He is bought out by corporations too. He lied, didn't live up to his promises. Increased done strikes in Pakistan, and ordered the assassination of an American citizen. Please, give me a bipartisan candidate. But this just shows you, we can't trust politicians as long as they are bought out.
don't type we when you type for yourself. if Obama loses and the GOP wins in 2012- our world will be an unhappier place. Effective political action means letting your officials know what's important to the voters on small and large issues. when enough people make their voices heard, elected officials will do the right thing, knowing they will be toast at the next election. Short term goal is to elect people starting in 2012 who will remember where the accountability lies. longer term goal is making the political system more responsive. re-writing ballot access laws, state by state, will take a few decades.
I am repeating what most people have said on this forum. You obviously don't know how politics really work outside a history class. Yes, we tell Obama "we want this, this, and this" he says "sureeeee" and runs a captain on Hope and Change for the 99% and then he gets elected. Then what? NOTHING! He lied lady time and has failed at almost everything. He has no motivation because by that point he is president again and doesn't need us anymore because it is his last term. He doesn't need our approval anymore. He hasn't done anything to help or economy yet. You should only reelect someone if they do an outstanding job.
Your problem is you want to vote for the lesser of two evils. You should be voting for the best person for the job! Personally I want someone bipartisan. They can effectively negotiate between sides. I agree, the gop often want us to elect crazy people, because those crazy people are distracting us from actual people who can help us. Not all republicans are but jobs, just like not all democrats are useless like Obama.
i'm over 30. would be extremely nice to vote for an ideal candidate. we live on planet earth. Leadership doesn't have a political party. OBama has a difficult style but he's faced with Republicans - focused on political gain versus doing anything. it would be easier with more "left" democrats or independents in office, but he's got to govern with the government he has.
he's confronted by political reality and an economic reality thats not very helpful (reverse 40 years of policy in 2 years? good luck with that).
based on the major republican presidential candidates, you can argue the average elected republican has their head up their ass or plays one on tv when it comes time for voting. look at what republicans have been arguing for the past ah- 30 odd years. the trend is only getting worse. chris christie a voice of reason? the modern GOP needs to be demolished to minority status - pressure "moderates" to leave for a third party would be a great thing. ballot access laws keeps them in check. republican and democrat seigneurial rights need to be eliminated.
Democrats that need pressure kept on them. average citizens have failed to keep this pressure on for too long- too busy with our nexflix ques, game boys and "reality shows". OWS style action could have made public option or a stimulus with enough punch to move economy forward. FDR programs had a bit to do with pressure from ordinary people. engaged citizens versus what we have had.
ballot access laws, are made so that you pretty much have to stick with obama/democrats in 2012 or face someone totally worse (Buddy being possible exeception) but democrats are best options, until americans can change their ballot access laws so that alternative parties have a serious chance--- use the existing party labels like bloomberg did and run candidates that have a realistic chance at winning that you can agree with on the important issues and trust them to not be wussy quiche eating surrender monkeys. (DailyKos has been highlighting such candidates for a while now). maintaining pressure is the key.
folks in wisconsin have done a terrific job in playing by existing rules. attempting a "favourite son" fifty state strategy is one way to disrupt 2012 and future elections.
bottom line - plenty of organizations and individuals have argued inequality and corporate greed were issues for a long long time. they've also been engaged in trying to bring this to the masses. OWSers appear to think they invented the wheel. hopefully the jump to political action will replace waving placards (first cold snap?)- a lot of work to be done and money better spent doing the grunt work than paying for a pizza party or a preaching to the choir newspaper. at least more people are paying attention now. will they vote smart in 2012?
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/occupywallstreet-visits-the-upper-east-side.html
I agree with all of those. But what I've seen of Rep Senator Scott Bron so far is that he is sane. will do some digging though.
Then the message is a simple one -- Fix It!
Very reasoned and well articulated. Thank you.
Thank you.
Join occupation.freeforums.org
If you believe this why is it unsigned? W need to protest to be heard! We need to demonstrate or will be ignored! This must have been written the Establishment it clearly says do nothing!
Mike Rowan Las Vegas, Nevada
OK,everybody listen cause I'm only gonna say it one TIME...it was fueled by 9/11 think about IT.. Since then this country has NOT COME BACK!!! The bush admin raped this country !!! Silverstein got very rich... He says he feels for the family's but we know that's a.f$&/king lie..MR.Obarma has his hands tied!?! Wanna know why...b.a.did midnight sessions so he could not undo what bush and his shitbag cohorts did.look it up .I myself read it in rolling stone mag.I myself am a full fledged hippie and hate all political aspects of life. Like we say in my state live free or die... So to all the protesters all around the country, keep up the GOOD WORK IT'S TIME To TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY!!! I will join you soon/peace. Jackstraw
I'd be apart of this "movement" but I don't see any sort of organization as of yet. As goeib1 said, "this is just a MOB with no logical thinking!". I don't agree there is no logic but right now there doesn't seem to be a concise goal and this won't have any sort of effect unless people start to come up with what is the main thing they want and ideas of how to make it happen that won't screw over anyone in the process.
yes, so many people are angry. don't lose faith. we all are different but we all want to SCREAM at what is going on economically in this country and to each of us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqLMjYT3b4w
nice. but if you think being nice will overcome bad, you are naive. the vietnam war was not ended by hippies. it was ended by anarchy and vandalism on a massive scale by the generation after the hippies.
nice. but if you think being nice will overcome bad, you are naive. the vietnam war was not ended by hippies. it was ended by anarchy and vandalism on a massive scale by the generation after the hippies.
I think being nice will gain support. if we have support, then we have control. The reason these deeds have come so far is because we are all mindless brainwashed sheep who have been taught to hate each other and never agree. If we come together as a 99% and say GTFO, they have to listen. If not, we go in, sit down in their offices and say this is ours now. GTFO
I am an original Tea Partier and I turned my back on them when they immediately turned too far right.. Yes you are correct. I supported OWS until tonight, they moved far left. WTF! Wake up people! You're turning into what the mainstream media is portraying you as. Focus on the corrupt fed reserve and wall st power in our government. The CFR insiders namely.
No, what may be happening is that since they are portraying us as socialists, socialists may be attracted to the movement.
And by you not joining us because you don't like the ideas some people have here, you are making us, as a movement, more left. We need you to diversify things.
TP goal is not about " Nobama" . It is about the Constitution. It is about the process of legislation being subverted and going around the Constitutional process by having 9 Supreme Court Justices legislate. Most importantly, it is about the reigning in of Big government spending and Big government control.The Federal government's purview has strict limitations ; the individual states, via the will of it's people retain the rights mentioned and unmentioned. It is truly genius. The minute the Federal governmet steps in to "help", the intended and unintended consequences create more problems! Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, look at what the founders said, not an interpretation of what they said. Rather than joining a multitude of groups to destroy the best, yet imperfect system, use those resources to help those truly in need. Stop asking to be given, and give. For when you give a government the power to give to others you give it the power to take away.
Forgot to mention that each individual state has the right to "experiment " with social and fiscal ideas. Look at the states which are in the black and those in the red. Look at the ones which have the least unemployment. Make the changes closer to where you reside!
You are right! Though this movement isn't about Obama nor Nobama. You are right about all you said, and I'm sure you will find many people agree with you at OWS
"The powers we are fighting against are bad enough, how would you feel if, because you felt it necessary to march in the street, a father of four was fired for being late for work?"
I would feel that father was working for someone that did not care about his welfare
You are right! Doesn't mean we aren't to blame too.
we allow companies to treat us poorly
Dude! Git ya a dictionary or somebody else to compose -
Dude, git ya a point or a life, welcome to da interntz
Once again we are all paying the price for the deregulation of OIL. Below I attempt to explain how the speculation in the oil market impacts each of us and what we can do about it. Please take this to heart and take action NOW! I have provided the link to a website and the name of the Bill where you can show your support for the legislation that will curb the speculation in oil that forces you to give your hard earned dollars to the speculators sitting on their yachts. Since, you my client base is huge and you live all over the world I will not be able to supply you with the name and address of your Federal Representative or Congressman The short version: The Oil producing Countries produce the oil, Exxon Refines it into gasoline, you buy it, and that’s how it should work! Now add the individuals and entities that buy oil futures contracts. They buy a contract for the future delivery of 10,000 bbl of oil arriving in the port of New Orleans in say Jan 2012 for $80/ bbl. (Remember they don’t own a refinery and can’t put it in their back yard) so; they create an additional (False) demand for oil thus driving the price to say $82/ bbl. That’s a cool $20,000 profit that you pay for at the pump. They never moved off of their yacht and did nothing to improve the product. They in turn sell the contract to others at a higher price and eventually it is sold to Exxon, because they actually own a refinery and ultimately sell it to you at a much higher price in the form of gasoline at the pump. Since they have artificially increased the price of gas you no longer have that extra money in your pocket to say buy food or a TV so you stop spending. The company (Sony) that makes the TV sees that demand has dropped and has to lay-off workers. These people no longer have income so (less taxes) and now they are not buying anything and more companies lay-off workers. (You get the picture) The Hedge Fund managers and Bankers who are considered the (Wall Street fat cats) like to steal your money and want to keep doing it so they contribute to their friends in Washington to make sure they don’t put the regulations back in place to stop them. The American public (318 million people) throws their collective hands up and says “What are you going to do?” I will tell you what they can do is to contact their representatives and tell them to pass the Bill to fix it! (SEE BELOW) Goldman and Morgan, are the LARGEST traders of oil contracts, if you could remove them from the market you would leave oil prices to supply and demand, the price for crude could be about 35 dollars a bbl and gas about one dollar a gallon. In one instance they were trying to take advantage of the Japanese following the tragic Tsunami and secondarily taking advantage of Europe following the Libyan uprising.
The most recent Recession (2008) was preceded by a speculative bubble in oil. The high priced gas kills the consumer and slows the economy. It destroys demand.
Look at the decline in US oil demand since 2005! Yet we have oil spiking first in 2008 to $147.50bbl then in the spring of this year we had oil up over 130 bbl in the case of Brent crude. It doesn't surprise me that the economy slowed in July and August.
Bubble priced oil is inflationary, it stalls economies, it forces emerging markets to buy oil on credit, and it acts as a giant tax on business and food. The high priced energy is bad for business and bad for the consumer.
Markets don't move on vague abstractions. They move on margins. If oil continues to be in a speculative bubble we will indeed have a second recession. If oil drops to supply and demand levels that would be the greatest possible stimulus and would make the global economies roar back to life. And note: nobody would have to call for deficit spending.
Oil must go down and stay down and these Fed banks and speculators should be stopped from trading in the oil futures by making them pay 100% cover unless they take delivery. Bubble oil is toxic to the global economy. On June 15, 2011 Sen. Sanders introduced a bill titled the "End Excessive Oil Speculation Now Act of 2011", which would force the Chairman of the CFTC to impose strict limits on the amount of oil speculators can trade in the commodity and futures markets. GOTO: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s112-1200 S. 1200: End Excessive Oil Speculation Now Act of 2011
Tl;DR Sorry, I have hundreds of comments to respond to daily. Many are complete run around, waste of my time bull. So if you could summarize this essay so I can be sure if I'm interested, that would be great.
Thank you.
I agree completely. We all have issues that we care passionately about, and we need to keep working on them. But, the fundemental problem we are facing today is that our democracy is broken, it has been corrupted by Corporations exercising Constitutional rights, including the "right" to free money/speech.
We HAVE TO fix that fundamental problem first, so that we can have fair debates - including debates with conservatives who don't share all of our progressive views - about issues. If we can have those fair debates, I think WE WILL WIN THEM, because our ideas are better than theirs. But right now, we can't even have the debates because the system is so fundamentally broken. The ONLY voice being heard by our politicians is the Corporate big $$$ voice.
Again, I agree completely with the original post. We need to FIX DEMOCRACY FIRST! The group that I am involved with that is working to to that is MOVE TO AMEND. I hope you will check MTA, and if you like what you read, get involved in the fight to return political power to the place it was always intended to be . . . in the hands of WE, THE PEOPLE!
Forward in Solidarity! Steve Justino Co-Chair, Colorado Move to Amend We Are the 99%! www.movetoamend.org
I agree completely. We all have issues that we care passionately about, and we need to keep working on them. But, the fundemental problem we are facing today is that our democracy is broken, it has been corrupted by Corporations exercising Constitutional rights, including the "right" to free money/speech.
We HAVE TO fix that fundamental problem first, so that we can have fair debates - including debates with conservatives who don't share all of our progressive views - about issues. If we can have those fair debates, I think WE WILL WIN THEM, because our ideas are better than theirs. But right now, we can't even have the debates because the system is so fundamentally broken. The ONLY voice being heard by our politicians is the Corporate big $$$ voice.
Again, I agree completely with the original post. We need to FIX DEMOCRACY FIRST! The group that I am involved with that is working to to that is MOVE TO AMEND. I hope you will check MTA, and if you like what you read, get involved in the fight to return political power to the place it was always intended to be . . . in the hands of WE, THE PEOPLE!
Forward in Solidarity! Steve Justino Co-Chair, Colorado Move to Amend We Are the 99%! www.movetoamend.org
I came to this site Friday night to offer my assistance as a non-profit organizer. I can do basic coding of web pages, accounting, and other functions.
Mainly I wanted to get some sanitation facilities out to Zucotto (sic) park.
In a matter of about 20 minutes I found over 15 contact listings, and left vmail and email on every one of them.
24 hours later, no response. They aren't even updating the site anymore.
Where did everyone, and the "tens of thousands" http://afgj.org/?p=1765#more-1765 of dollars go?
Well, the General Assembly never was in the US, they are operating out of a hotel room somewhere in Nicaragua, and the money has been deposited in a Central American bank.
How could the people do this to our citizens, how can members of our government support this?
They have to know, it only took me 20 minutes to find out, and they had days and hundreds of people on their staffs.
What do you mean? I have not heard of the site you linked too. but it is obvious that people are going to try to make a buck or two off of the movement, That is why you should donate physical goods. Besides, if the protestors weren't getting the money, they'd be dead by now. And the GAs are held in person, so I don't know where that comment came from
They are getting hand to hand donations from the general public.
I am sorry, but it appears the the main organizers aren't even in the US. They were just suckering people for the money. It's like the UPS store address on the front page. I have been told that it is just some sketchy people who are telling people cash only.
I am looking for people to donate 5 gallon buckets to use as toilets, TP, and baby wipes. Can you help?
I would suggest just sending it through UPS, or posting on the forum if anyone near you is going to an occupation. It doesn't have to go to wall street, their are occupations all over.
No Do Not Send It To The UPS Store, No body seems to know who those people are!!
Everybody, please!! If you are going to donate, do it locally. Put it INTO the hands of a protestor.
Leadership appears to be some kind of front group.
Here, this is a link to the back end of the donation site, they are out of Nicaragua, and have a couple of US mailboxes, and magicjack card phone numbers: http://afgj.org/?p=1765#more-1765
I have not seen that website before today, nor have I heard of them. Nor did that site show they were scamming us. But I digress. I donate my time. I am a poor student. It is all I have. I agree, you should donate locally.
Cool, your energies are what will make of break this.
Maybe the scammers who started this just wanted the money, it is up to us to clean it up, and make it our own.
The afgj site was to tell people to stop tweeting and harrassing the credit card company after they stop forwarding the money to a Central America bank, the card companies thought it was fraud, which it is just of the cause.
The trolls who get on these sites and oppose us are NOT the parents who might get fired because they're late for work. They are the people who continually vote and agitate against their own interests because they are under the delusion they actually have something in common with the ruling class. They actually think they might someday join the ruling class and lord it over the rest of us. They're peons. They go through life being peed on. They expect to be peed on. They go to church every Sunday, fall down on their knees and pray "oh lord, won't you send some nice rich person to comer pee on me and hopefully I'll catch at least some of the trickle of his wealth." If you ever so quietly suggest that maybe they don't have to be peed on in order to support their families, they'll call you a socialist and burn you at the stake every time.
They are the 99% who are brainwashed. And some just do it for the cake.
I agree completely. We all have issues that we care passionately about, and we need to keep working on them. But, the fundemental problem we are facing today is that our democracy is broken, it has been corrupted by Corporations exercising Constitutional rights, including the "right" to free money/speech.
We HAVE TO fix that fundamental problem first, so that we can have fair debates - including debates with conservatives who don't share all of our progressive views - about issues. If we can have those fair debates, I think WE WILL WIN THEM, because our ideas are better than theirs. But right now, we can't even have the debates because the system is so fundamentally broken. The ONLY voice being heard by our politicians is the Corporate big $$$ voice.
Again, I agree completely with the original post. We need to FIX DEMOCRACY FIRST! The group that I am involved with that is working to to that is MOVE TO AMEND. I hope you will check MTA, and if you like what you read, get involved in the fight to return political power to the place it was always intended to be . . . in the hands of WE, THE PEOPLE!
Forward in Solidarity! Steve Justino Co-Chair, Colorado Move to Amend We Are the 99%! www.movetoamend.org
I agree completely. We all have issues that we care passionately about, and we need to keep working on them. But, the fundemental problem we are facing today is that our democracy is broken, it has been corrupted by Corporations exercising Constitutional rights, including the "right" to free money/speech.
We HAVE TO fix that fundamental problem first, so that we can have fair debates - including debates with conservatives who don't share all of our progressive views - about issues. If we can have those fair debates, I think WE WILL WIN THEM, because our ideas are better than theirs. But right now, we can't even have the debates because the system is so fundamentally broken. The ONLY voice being heard by our politicians is the Corporate big $$$ voice.
Again, I agree completely with the original post. We need to FIX DEMOCRACY FIRST! The group that I am involved with that is working to to that is MOVE TO AMEND. I hope you will check MTA, and if you like what you read, get involved in the fight to return political power to the place it was always intended to be . . . in the hands of WE, THE PEOPLE!
Forward in Solidarity! Steve Justino Co-Chair, Colorado Move to Amend We Are the 99%! www.movetoamend.org
I really needed to see someone else saying this. Thank you so much. I had not seen this before right now, but it's what I have been saying for days now. Just an hour ago I posted this on Reddit:
"Once you get the label into somebody's head that a certain group of people represents "Them" instead of "Us," it is very difficult to change this association. It isn't impossible, but it means that we are fighting an uphill battle, because a lot of otherwise sensible people have already solidified the movement as "them" in their minds because of the yellow journalism. That's why we have to focus on the core issue, so as not to further alienate people with lots and lots of little side-issues. It's also why we must put our best face out there; don't give them reason to marginalize us."
I read it, but it is pretty nonsensical.
"We need to UNITE under one common goal! Fix the system! Fix our Democracy! End the corruption! MAKE THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE!"
You see, for as many people as there are protesting - there are as many ways to 'fix the system'. "Fixing the system" is intrinsically not a common goal - it is just empty rhetoric that means something different to each person (hence the polarized demands).
You say something is bad on the one hand, then promote the same thing on the other.
In conclusion, herp-derp
What do you mean? I wrote that it is okay to have different opinion on how to achieve our goal, but not everyone is going to agree with those opinions and they will be afraid to join because of those polarized opinions. We need to advertise the goal, not the steps if we are to expand. Once we have a more diverse base, then we can discuss fairly what we want. You clearly missed the point of this writting.
In conclusion, herp-derp
Your stated goal is to '"fix the system" - the obvious response is "how is the system broken" and then "how do we fix it" - the point is that you think that "fixing the system" is a common goal when it is clearly a diverse goal when you take into account the plurality of opinion about what is broken and how to fix it.
It is like saying, "we all like good food" - great we all can agree on that! Then we find that everyone prefers different meals, some are vegeterian, etc - the general statement does not unite you in your actual tastes or ideas at all. As I said - it is meaningless as there are a multitude of options about what is broken and how to fix it - without discussing the specifics it is impossible to know if you actually agree on the goal.
In conclusion, herp-derp
I understand that, which is why we need to concentrate on "We like good food!" and "Let's order dinner" So that the whole 99% will be join us and say "Those sound like good ideas" THEN, and only THEN, we can all present what foods we like. Then as a group, we can decide what meal choices will cover the needs of everyone. We will discuss our opinions, state the facts, gain supporters for ideas, then present an over-arching order that will make everyone happy.
If we continue as we are, it will just be all vegetarians and vegans ordering.
I know it is complicated so I will not conclude with a herp-derp
But that is my point - if you concentrate on "We like good food!" - you will very quickly find that you don't agree with each other at all, as you never discussed what constitutes "good food". I guess my point is that undisclosed, undefined goals will only ultimately alienate people - sure they will initially rally to a banner, but that is short term. In the long term people will be annoyed to only to find hamburgers at the end when what they really wanted was vegan-tofu. I agree it is complicated - but simplifying things to a point where they don't actually mean anything is not going to help. If you can find something that everyone agrees on then the chances are that it is either because a) it is painfully obvious (being alive is good). or b) because it is so ill defined that people are not actually agreeing at all (we all like good food).
In conclusion, yea it is complicated...
http://www.realitysandwich.com/occupy_wall_street_no_demand_big_enough
I like your rhetoric but I recommend you read the above article for another perspective.
True, we need not be extremist, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
I just want to take at a couple solutions. focus on drawing a boundary (rul of law=Republic) by direct democratic process of We the People( not just elected officials) Lets never waver on giving up our liberty, life, and the pursuit of happiness and be honest that this should be an un-alienable right for every human on the planet. This means that we should focus on two goals. 1. Protect our human bill of rights for every person. 2. Protect our environment which is an indirect way of protecting every humans bill of individual rights.
If we used these two guiding lights we can create a rule of law that maximizes every individuals life. It is all about priorities. Any comments?
Right and we can all agree that the 1% will use many clever tactics which will only stick if we the people allow them to. It is perfectly safe for the 99% to be One yet not agree with each other. This is how our Forefathers have envisioned it as well. Our Diversity is our Strength.
It's important to demonstrate peacefully. And having a united goal is really needed. But what is the united goal? Is it simply to state we don't like what's happening? OK, we succeeded. I'll suggest a way to make an impression without raising a voice or becoming physical at all. Close your bank accounts. Pick a day. If we keep our "dare" public, then I think the government will close the banks before our scheduled day. Otherwise, we would bankrupt the nation. The Federal Reserve - a private institution - prints more and more money, thus making it worth less. But it also is making it WORTHLESS as a result. Maybe then all politicians will see that it doesn't matter if you are a Democrat, Republican, Independent or Tea Party. We ALL want this madness to stop.
You know Goeib1, your relentless attacks on people are really annoying. I understand you believe in your cause and you think you are politically inclined to express your opinion, but people like you who force yourself against the grain will be swallowed up by the force of the movement. If you think you can negate what people say, why dont you truck your ass on over to Wall St and straighten those MOB mentalities out. You could be become something so much more than just yourself. If we're unorganized, quit harassing people and do something about it instead. Quit putting your two cents in online, and be the change you want to see.
Anonymous is right on target. We need to remain focused. There is a lot of corporate money deflecting the real issues - "Government for the people and by the people". We can learn from the mistakes of the tea baggers. They've got a point - the check book is a mess. But their baggage doesn't appeal to the 99%. Lets get the corporate money out of government and put the will of the people back into the government.
Lets keep our eyes on the target - a target that the 99% can agree on - a target that the 99% will vote for - make your representatives know that we are voting for campaign finance reform and fair and accountable lobbying.
Don't get distracted by the likes of FOX News and all the trolls side stepping the real issue - corporate money is running our government. And we're in a real pickle - How do we get a political system that is bought and paid for by the corporations to work for the 99% and not the 1%! This will be a lot easier if we stay focused and remain "The 99%" majority.
And, by the way, the 99% will also do right by the corporations - after all, we own their stock and work for them. But corporations are amoral machines/processes. They are designed to always choose the path that is best for the corporation. Their ultimate goal is to make money and they are allowed to do this in any way possible as long as their people can do it legally. To that end, if the corporation can influence the law to allow it to make more money, it has the right (even the duty) to do just that. Given that definition, a corporation can do anything, even murder, even genocide, if the law allows corporate employees to do it legally. However, 99%'ers work for the corporations. For the most part they know immoral and will vote for a government that will legislate laws that keep corporate behavior moral and just. Many 99%'ers are sickened by having to do actions that are legal which they see as immoral but they need the paycheck. Let's give them their dignity back. Let's give them a government that will insure a fair, just and honest country to live and work in. The popular quote is "Left alone, corporations will always do the right thing." That's so misleading. Corporations do what's right for corporations. It's up to government, by way of the law and enforcement of the law, to insure their behavior remains just and equitable for people.
I'm done with the Occupy movement. It didn't take very long for everyone with a personal agenda or vendetta to use the Occupy Movement for their own end. I was done when I saw Occupy F@cebook's picture of Christopher Columbus with the caption "Criminal." What the hell? Occupy London and others are using it to get the troops out of Afghanistan. This is all over the place.
I agree with you, but instead of giving up, try fighting for your rights. Help the movement get better
we need love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WBHic2Ea_8
True, we need a concise goal, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers yourselves. Consequently, I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
This is very very well said. Its what Ive been saying all along. We are pushing people away from this movement who would have otherwise joined because of the extremist views. We need to promote a message that EVERYONE can relate to in order to get everyone to join. I think a great example is the women's right movement: when it first started, it was divided beyween a group of women that just wanted to fight for the right to vote and a group that wanted voting rights, property rights, divorce rights, and equality in many areas of life. This movement was STUCK when these groups divided, and was only able to succeed when they were able to join and compromise on a concise goal. And, as we can see, once the ball got rolling on women's rights, most of these other concerns where eventually resolved. We must be able to UNITE in order to be effective. We must set aside the things that deter the moderate and conservative folks from joining our cause. We are living in a highly partisan time, and our message much rise about those partisan conflicts and reach EVERYONE. And, just as with the women's rights movement, we can expect that many of our other grievances will eventually be attended to. We MUST keep our minds and goals on short term, concise, and realistic concepts.
It takes time to form the 99% into cohesion. We are talking about nearly the entire population here, folks. People of all races, creeds and political standing. Mainstream media is fighting this cohesion with partisan commentating on both the far right and the far left. I am behind OWS 100%. If we want to demand something for change, we should begin by bringing the SPECIFIC peoples involved in the mortgage scam to justice! There needs to be a SERIES of actions focused at specific goals one by one. There needs to be justice for The American People perpetrated by Investment Firms AGAINST the American People. 99% can stand behind justice for itself. 99% can stand behind the reforming of our democracy. We need to get this stolen corporate money out of our elections... out of our politicians pockets and get THEM out of corporate pockets. Democracy is not a stock or a bond to be traded and sold by investors. Priorities, my friends. OWS can succeed. It needs to succeed. KEEP IT ALIVE!
here's my offer to UNITE with a MECHANISM for creating change. What does "legitimately push for our demands" mean to you? Who are you pushing? Do you expect our government to reform itself just because citizens shout loud enough? http://www.JeffBlock2012.com
Yes I do. We are the blood of this country. without us there is nothing.
so, what would you DO if you shouted as loud as you could and were still ignored? what's next?
We collect more shouters.
well, when you're done shouting...
that's why I created http://www.JeffBlock2012.com I'm not here to instigate a revolution, just think a platform should be available when the voters are ready for a revolution - might be 2016, might be 2020, might be 2024.
I responded to your post because you wrote: "We need to UNITE under one common goal! Fix the system!", but it appears your plan is to shout loud enough until someone else fixes the system. Good luck with that...
No, our goal isn't to support a leech political canidate
same here - I think it's silly how every 4 years voters get all wound up over picking the next President - our Presidents don't have the power to do what we think we've elected them to do. With my candidacy it's not about "me" but the chance for 65,000,000 citizens to vote on a platform.
My point is. You can say that now. Like how Obama ran on hope, and then you can just change your tune as soon as you are in office. I am glad you are willing to run. But you need to wait to see what our main concerns are, prove (from past experience) that you at least have the knowledge to get things done. Then show us in a detailed path, a list of laws, and detailed explanations HOW you will change things as president.
ah - you don't understand. I offer my candidacy solely as a torch-passer from the "old way" to whatever "new way" 65,000,000 voters want - which includes structural/organizational changes to our system of government, as well as policies, mandates and Constitutional amendments. While what you see today on my website IS my creation, it will morph over time if/when citizens decide they want to vote on a Revolution.
What I've created is a MECHANISM for change and I focus on changing the system, not changing the way humans behave.
I believe voters (and OWS) should have the opportunity to VOTE on a binding revolution.
The citizens of Iceland this year wrote their own Constitution, albeit with the Parliament buy-in beforehand. I see no reason why citizens shouldn't have the same opportunity here.
Sounds good to me
Hey! What happened to my post????? You liars said we were free to speak our minds here. I guess that only applies to those who agree??? Spineless tools.
The servers are becoming overloaded. Your post might not have had enough comments to remain? Also, the forums are now ordered by the latest post, yours may have been pushed to the bottom.
Democracy! End the corruption! MAKE THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE!
You people are so blind. You have that ability within the construct of our existing Constitution. You people are so brain dead you're only worth ignoring. Please go home and quit disrupting the lives of productive people
You are wrong. The corporations have corrupted our politicans. It doesn't matter who you vote for, they are all useless.
No the Goal is pretty specific- End Foreign Bankers Control of the Federal Reserve. John F.Kennedy attempted to with Executive Order 11110 and was Assassinated for his efforts by the hidden shadow government who really runs the country.
The Country is controlled Banks and Corporations,Politicians these days are mere "YES MEN"/Puppets bought and paid for by these other entities-and this is 'WHY" there is so much widespread corruption in Washington ,because all of the same political pigs are feeding from the same Money Trough.
This is why people are Rightfully marching with signs to 'END THE FED" , and as far as the fictious father of Four in your story goes....let me tell you...that guy will soon lose his job anyway,because Obama's goal is to ship all jobs overseas, and if you dont believe me...just as the people over at Gibson Guitar manufacturing in Nashville who had their plant raided and wood supply confiscated by order of the Obama Administration-because Gibson believes in employing "Americans" not contracting workers over in India instead as Obama wants. This is the type of "Dictator Wanna-be" we're dealing with here.
So I would urge that "Father of Four" to Pick up a sign and Join the March when he can...because Obama wants his job Gone !!!! . He Pretends to want to create Jobs for the Cameras meanwhile he and the rest of the elitist Bilderberg group want to destroy America Financially from within...and they are doing a pretty dam good job at it so far.
This is why Foreign Ownership and Control of the Federal Reserve needs to go...so that no more Money Printing and "Borrowing" at "Interest" to Foreign Banks can continue...the Foreign Bankers Monopoly over Americas currency need to be cut off at the ankles..."NOW". The Federal Reserve act was "Ilegally" Concieved in 1913 to start with. ..and while we are at it...How about someone arresting Obama for violating the Logan Act every year.
Every year Obama meets with the Bilderberg Group in secret meetings at foreign Locations...which is a direct violation of the Logan act and is a "Treasonous Felony" under the Logan act. So lets enforce our laws people and have Obama arrested and Impeached.
You are 100% CORRECT. Will pass it on. Don't lose faith yet, we need people like you who retain some clarity in all this fervor :)
Join and contribute to:
Occupation.freeforums.org
It is new, but we can work towards an organized voice of the people.
You make very clear, obvious and logical points and after reading many of the 270+ comments it appears that most basically agree with your view but get quickly spun off on to the symptoms of the problem and not looking at the root cause of it ie. our corrupt dysfunction congress that is being bought off by big corporations to pass or block laws for their self interest and to the demise of the rest of the country. We need to make a clear statement that reforming this corrupt dysfunction system is the main goal and invite a national dialog of how to reform our current legislative process that favors the few at the cost of the many. This is the one unifying issue that all of the 99% can get agree on, (just look at congress's approval rating) and in the process of asking all to help we become inclusive and gives the country a stake in the outcome with a chance at a true democratic process to take place.
thanks ANONYMOUS, I agree whole heartedly with you and I have a suggestion for one concise goal that is for We the People as you wrote.
One Common Interest: End Corporate Lobbyists
from there all these other issues can be raised, debated, and voted on based on our representative government weighted one vote per one citizen.
Corporate lobbyists serve the interests of perhaps 1 in 1,000 of us. with those numbers I can imagine an end to the practice. One issue, one focus nearly all of us will agree on that will open the door to all the other issues being negotiated with our common interest in the forefront.
Well said /b/rother.
a leader is needed..one voice like Dr. King
You forget. He was murdered...
Here here! We have their attention, but for what? Remember that this began under the premise that "the system is broken and needs to be fixed". The things that are breaking the system are not gay marriage and medical marijuana, but the fact that the political system no longer represents we the people and instead represents corporate money. It is time to Organize Wall Street..
"The Whole World Is Watching'.... so we need to start doing something or we will quickly become irrelevant...
Right on , OP.
Keep this movement focused on how the plutocracy fucks regular people and it will catch fire with regular people.
Make this protest all about saving the whales, transgender rights, gay marriage, anarcho syndicalism and giant puppets, and it's going to flame out and fail miserably.
I like this one from 'justakid': Our political system has been corrupted. OWS is all about getting money out of politics. How do we do this? Reverse the Citizens United decision and end the legal force behind "corporate personhood." Just that simple, but it will take a constitutional ammendment to overturn the Supreme Court. So, saddle up for a long fight.
Perfectly stated! Participants at the occupation locations are going to need camping provisions. This type of 'off-the-political-grid' movement has parrallels to the 'free software' movement (see Richard Stallman). There needs to be a simple methodology for supporter/participants to deliver supplies to the people at the demonstrations in order to sustain them, keep them warm, etc. The minute you disapear from sight, you disappear from TV News. TV is 'the court of public oppinion.' To win there, you need to be there. Your precedent is John and Yoko's Bed-Ins for peace. You can be leaderless, but you can't be brainless. You need intellectuals / communicators who can be translators for the press of what they are seeing. Palin was a joke in the press because she was brainless. People follow TV, the press controls TV. (Internet outlets too, e.g., Huffington Post). But for the 99 percent, its got to be a fresh sound byte on the morning, midday, evening and late night news that will captivate their imagination and keep them checking for the next newscast. Visuals help. If the [real] press flips the bozo bit it will be a hinderence, everyone needs to know the basic goal: fully functional, transparent, accountable American government free of biases from any moneyed interests foriegn or domestic. I loved the message I saw one young man say on TV - "I hope this never ends."
Some concrete demands to make the difference:
I agree with this. I hope everyone can put their other political standpoints aside while banding together for this cause. This; "We need to UNITE under one common goal! Fix the system! Fix our Democracy! End the corruption! MAKE THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE!" is truly our cause. Stay focused, everyone!
The republic has failed us...how many times to we need to be kicked to finally wake from this nightmare brainwash.
Spot on. I hope the other occupy groups read this and take it to heart.
Although, one quibble, I would adjust the demand from "A fair, democratic, representative government that views us all equally" to "A fair, democratic, representative government that views us all equally and is not a pawn of Wall St"
Touche
i think the biggest thing we should be pushing is DIRECT, PARTICIPATORY DEMOCRACY. no more representative democracy. our technology has made it possible so that every voter could cast a vote for a policy rather than a representative. done right, voters could even advocate their own ideas for policies and see if those ideas catch on with the rest of the 99%. of course this would take proper oversight. we can not afford even one more diebold fiasco.
AN0NYM0US, do you consider yourself to be a member of the group Anonymous? Some people on this forum might not already be familiar with that group.
I do in a way. There are many factions in Anonymous, I am just someone who falls under their original ideals I am not a hacker, I am simply anonymous. So yes, in a small, "I'm too busy for their lulz drama" way.
I just want to be free and happy. I mean truly free. I don't want to hurt anyone intentionally or cause disruption that would destroy what should be held dear: life itself in all its glory. I don't think or do for those who do not wish me to. I only represent those who ask me to stand by them, without question -- because we are family, friends, mates, partners.
Say what you want about how this is the "wrong" way but do so when trying to find your "right" way.
Nthing is wrong with what you just said
the solution.
http://youtu.be/Ka1ym7S3F3w
http://rpflix.com/2108
1.) National Wi-Fi (Access to information, it will also circulate the millions paid for the service into the economy.) 2.) Green Energy, Water and Resource Act. ( Aimed at reducing water, and electricity bills to Free. A one time product purchase to power houses ) 3.) High Speed Rail System (To connect the cities and create jobs) 4.) Technology Grant (For every person over 18 only redeemable to purchase computer device made by an American company) 5.) Electric Car Act (Mass production of a single electric car standard) Model T... 6.) Land Act. (Owner laws of unoccupied land must be examined in aim of selling land to people for reasonable prices to develop green communities that grow their own food) 7.) Wholistic Healthcare Reform Act (approach medicine from all angles including preventive and natural remedies while also focusing on reducing cost. ) 8.) Education Reform (School Age Change, Three Year Old Pre K Four Year Old School Age. Early Focus on Math and Sciences.) 9.) Small Business Investment Act (Give small business a chance to rebuild the nation, big business has seemed to fail) 10.) Increase In Global PR (Let us stop spending more money on war than we do on humanitarian campaigns)
Here is a list of demands that will change our economy, our lives, and the world. More details into these Acts and demands coming soon but for now this is what we need, not what we want.
None of these - not one - relates to increasing our voice against the 1%. Please stay focused. Despite what its detractors claim, this movement is not a socialist or anti-capitalist sounding board. The exact opposite, perhaps: by removing power from monopolists, we would stimulate the free market, and promote capitalism.
This movement stands for less corporate interference in politics, and for more accountability, checks and balances for large corporations (banks, insurance companies, et al).
I understand, however the real problem is us have nots.... We would not want accountability if everything was great... We have not before... A voice against the 1% is not going to put food on every Americans table... We must work with the banks, government and each other..
please watch this movie trailer and spread the link to as many people as you can. This movie promises to expose many of the worlds problems and pin points the single main initial solution, "FREE ENERGY", and a new economic model based on abundance instead of scarcity. http://thrivemovement.com
You cannot fix Democracy, the only way to save us is to go back to a Republic.
We have never stopped being a republic. That is the problem. (don't believe me? sing the national anthem)
END the FED sounds good to me, but why I am critical is because the focus is on corporations when in fact the government has enabled to corporations. We need to replace the government before we can expect these problems to end.
I too also fear that the leftist rhetoric associated with OWS is further polarizing our nation when we need to be uniting.
Why don't we start with Auditing the Fed for transparency so we all know the true on where all of our money goes? Check out Ron Paul's bill to Audit the Fed. P.S. I would not be so afraid of the End the Fed movement as they really are looking for the same things that everyone on this list is. The just might have already gone through the process of identifying what demands they are looking for as a number one priority. It takes looking at problems from all angles to fully UNITE!.
Seriously, not joking here, we need a powerful community organizer. Maybe our President (of the United States) can give us some light.
President Obama's #3 contributor in '08 was Goldman Sachs... just sayin
You're right, we who are critical of OWS are part of the 99% too.
Most of us are just as critical of the banks but, personally, I don't believe the system needs to be torn down. I think it is repairable if we elect the right people. Do not look to Republicans and Democrats for your solutions. There is no better year to get behind an independent candidate.
You are quite awesome. We can use you on the new forum designed to be the next step in the movement.
occupation.freeforums.org
It just started so give it a chance
thanks! I'll take a look.
We MUST be NONVIOLENT or we will fail & there are folks PAID to push us in a violent direction ~ if questionable ~ walk away take the higher ground of NONVIOLENCE ~ Google ~ Gene Sharp's Manual on nonviolence ~ used in Burma by Monks, In Tunisia & In Tahrir Sq ~
This is the absolute truth. Please, everyone read and unite.
What you people should be doing is camping out at the White House and the Capital! Then you'll get something a little closer to 99%! The REAL 99% work here! We raise our families here! You want to "Fix" Democracy? Stop voting for the same assholes all the times. You vote in the radicals like Obama, Reid, Weiner, Pelosi, Dodd, Frank and you do it over and over again and expect things to change? So called " Wall Street" gave more money to Obama than any other presidential candidate in history! He currently has more than $1 Billion in his re-election fund! And you ding dongs are clogging up the City of New York! What a bunch of dickheads!
1) The radicals win because they get corporate funding for advirtisements It doesn't matter which side. 2) They are occupying Wall Street to say "We know who are pulling your strings DC" 3) There are people occupying DC, as well as many more cities
Go to DC, organize, get an agenda, have an expected outcome and try to be sane. I promise you'll get porta potties in DC.
I have posting a concrete plan of action to move forward to implement the changes we all want. I have seen no other proposal going forward except more demonstrations but these will eventually peter out especially when it gets cold and people go home. We need a plan. We need to convene a new shadow congress to vote on non-violent implementation of these ideas.
Please read this plan and comment on it or propose a better one:
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
hello, you folks do realize it is Democracy that got us to where we are now. Democracy is majority rule. What made america great in its past in its heyday was a Republic. A Republic is a form of government where majority rules but certain rights are always retained by the minority. I really hope this message makes it out there. because it hard to fight for whats right when you call it by the wrong name...
Actually, you are wrong. We are a Republic. Republics are forms of government the elect people to represent them
I think its pretty clear what people want: they want jobs and want to be able to feed their kids and pay their bills, and not drown in student loan debt. They want to be able to survive with a roof over their head.
the only thing that matters right now is CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM, unless you get the big money out of politics, no change whatsoever will occur, this should be the focus of the protests, we need to have honest politicians that work for the public before any thing else can get done, campaign finance reform (ending corporate personhood, kicking the lobbyists out of the Washington) is the perfect starting point. It really is a no brainer that this should be the one thing we can all agree on. Because unless we do this, all those other demands that people have will never be addressed, not in a millions years.
Agreed. Very well said. I will get behind a movement to fix the system. We need to unite in order to effect real change.
We must begin with the end in mind, have a path to follow to get there, and a means to do it. The movement is gaining attention and followers. That is key at this time. The original goal, I believe, was to get attention and that goal is becoming a reality. It is time to get some problems with solutions on the table.
Completely agree with you! Once we fix the system, then we can move on to our personal goals.
what about if we give equal representation to everyone. End two party corporate sponsored politics create a peoples party and take over our democracy. Why does a candidate have to spend a billion dollars to get elected to the presidency, its because prime time media costs an arm and a leg. Create a free media outlet for all campaigns and stop the useless two party bikering going on in washington.
I support the movement and I think that most of your demands are valid attempts to address the correct causes of our present situation. But….
In demanding that the current government create or change policies, you are trusting the foxes to guard the hen house. You are not dealing with an honest broker. Our corrupt government and its corporate puppet masters have been enacting legislation for decades that looks like it is going to be good for the people, while in actuality, it benefits only the 1%. You may get them to reinstate Glass-Steagall, for example, but I guarantee they will create new loopholes and/or other new legislation to ensure the status quo. There is a reason that legislation is so voluminous and complex you need a law degree and a staff to understand it–this is how they hide the loopholes and they are very good at it. If the movement's demands end up being a list of policy changes, at some point they will agree to change policy, the movement will rejoice, disban and they will promptly fuck us over anew.
In order to get any real change, we need first to have a legislature we can trust. This is an enormous challenge and I am not exactly sure how this can be accomplished–maybe we can figure that out together.
So as not to get caught up in too many details now, run with me for a minute on the big picture. Let's say we fire the entire congress–like a nationwide recall. We ensure an honest election system for their replacements, including ensuring their is no corporate, big money or dem/rep influence. There is an equal playing field for all candidates, etc. and it is clear to them that if they get into office and even talk to a lobbyist, we will yank them back so fast their heads will spin. If we could make this happen, then we would have an honest legislature whom we could trust to enact the will of the people. Then we can demand policy change and have a reasonable shot at getting actual reform.
Right now, we are just arguing about which deal to make with the devil.
Great idea, but firing the whole government at once is a bit impractical. It's better to start at the top and work our way down. The big picture isn't going to be realized in one fell swoop. Election reform is badly needed.
I agree it would certainly be unprecedented and maybe impossible. My fear, though, is that if we don't find a way to wipe the slate clean, we won't even get authentic candidates, much less representation.
I think it's pretty clear based on the last--at least--8 presidential elections that the system itself is corrupt. No-one even gets to be a candidate without being funded and backed by the corporate machine. A few new faces on the Hill, even if one of the is the Pres, I fear is not anywhere near enough to stop the machine.
an election is a year a way plenty of time to start a new peoples party and take over the legislative and executive branch. start by addressing the cost of an election.
Exactly, "We need to UNITE under one common goal! Fix the system! Fix our Democracy! End the corruption! MAKE THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE! " All else is a waste and will dilute the message.Sorry, everyone has there little issues and trust me most people don't care about yours. If you throw your issues in people will think, "I don't support that issue I am not one of them" Stick to a popular and important issue of fixing a broken political system and its possible that we can real change.
To the OP, I agree with you. So, HOW do we fix our government and make it about We the People?
We need to be trying to find 3-5 realistic and achievable demands that 99% of Americans would get behind. Find those and concentrate on them.
For example, I think demanding voting machines that leave a paper trail and are easily audited is something that almost every citizen would support.
I would say that is a smaller demand that would be one step towards one of out 3-5 goals.
Please, join
Occupation.freeforums.org
to join the next step in these debates.
It is a new site, but it is much better equipped than this one.
What is the problem? The political, social and economic system is to complex and therefor it is not possible to create an unit within some weeks! All people that take part in this movement should be free to talk about all the things that gone and still go totally wrong and I am sure that this will create more and more an good baseline for further activities that break the slavery and mind fuck we are all experiencing. If your feelings and complaints do not count in this society because you do not at the same time deliver solutions, we are experiencing really bad times and an society without regard for others. The idea that you should only talk when you have an better proposal is stupid and without compassion and this idea is exactly one cause why so long no one struggled against the selling of our society. People should be grateful that some guys do not longer swallow anything because when they are good people it will also be for their own gain.
I didn't say we need to propose idea right away, I said we need to focus our complaints on the Main over-lapping issues and complain about the smaller things later.
It's a process. You say the way we appear matters. Appear to who? The media? Why should we cater to the media? The 1% have the wealth. The 99% have eachother. Why should we rely on the media.
I want to fix the political system. Separation of money and state. After that, all things are possible.
You say the rest of the 99% is watching (I'm assuming the media) and they don't like what they see. If you believe in democracy - then go tell 2 people! 10 people ! 100 people! And they tell 2 people. And so on. The 99% have eachother and that is worth more than all the money in the world!
It is great in theory, but this country isn't very talkative (at least not civilly) When it comes to politics. Hell, many people on these forums can't be civil.
I don't think of this as political. I would hope that anyone, democrat, republican or other, would be able to agree on Election Reform! I know there is alot of noise, I have seen some very rude people. Which I promptly ignore! Even the theoretical is possible. I am hopeful and believe in the goodness and intelligence of the VAST majority of people. So I will discuss Election Reform and my views with as many people as will listen. I carry a sign for Election Reform. Hoping to unite. I can't tell people what to do. Ultimately, it is their own choice.
This is the wisest and most accurate post I have seen here. Failure to heed it's message will certainly destroy the movement.
Thank you. Spread it around and join the new forum
Occupation.freeforums.org
It is still being worked on, but it is more than ready and much better than this scattered forum.
anyone who took out loans and was some how fooled into taking out more then they could afford is an idiot if you don't know how much you make and how much you can pay and still have enough to live then you are an idiot anyone with any brain could figure that out and I don't think they fooled anyone I think a bunch of deadbeats took out loans with no intention of paying it back and I think this protest is a bunch of union creeps who are mad because goverments are cutting jobs but those same unions will not do what it takes to save those jobs they just throw younger employees under the bus and refuse to pay for anything and also a bunch of deadbeats who live off taxpayers through welfare,foodstamps,student loans that they use for thing that were never intended like living on and buying other junk having nothing to do with college,and then the deadbeats who have lived off goverment forever and have brainwashed their children into thinking the taxpayers have to should take care of them while they sit at home on their asses spitting out kids and doing nothing but sucking the life out of the middle class I think welfare for everyone should end today and maybe those deadbeats would take the jobs that are out there and there are plenty do like the pay whaaa tough get to jobs then you lazy bums I have thru my entire life so suck it up stop complaining and get to work you lazy good for nothing leeches
This post has nothing to do about student loans, and it is actually about how people should not bitch about things like that just yet.
We in Olancho are already setting an example that can be replicated everywhere. This new nation is a work in progress [just like our website]. The people of Olancho wanted to be independent and prosperous and thus embraced joining forces with outsiders who brought a diverse set of ideas and skills.
Olancho was founded by an alliance of rugged individualists who succeeded in ridding irrational and dangerous industrial society precepts to create a resilient nation based on equitable prosperity, small-scale production and an economy limited by the efficiencies of nature.
Olancho seceded from Honduras in 2011 to become the first energy-independent constitutional republic that integrates liberty, self-reliance and free-enterprise with permaculture, agro-ecology, soil husbandry, food security and natural resource conservation.
The people of Olancho have reasserted the legitimate jurisdiction of private rights and environmental stewardship against unsustainable living, rampant consumerism, economic shocks, oppressive oligarchies and engorging bureaucracies in Latin America, the United Sates and Europe.
Olancho is the idea that human prosperity and thriving ecosystems are achievable through the application of renewable energy and appropriate technologies, sustainable agricultural practices and good government.
The economy of Olancho is heavily weighted to the primary sector. Small private enterprises intensively manage highly productive farms and related industries. Each community maximizes its ability to sustain itself with food, water, energy and other resources necessary for human health, well being and prosperity. Surpluses are traded between communities within Olancho and imports and exports are traded with other nations.
Economic growth is strengthened by a unified market, a supportive political-legal system, vast natural resources, a culture that values entrepreneurship and a commitment to investing in material and human capital.
www.republicofolancho.com
At no other time are the masses of the people in a position to come forward so actively as creators of new political, economic and social orders as at a time of revolution.
¡Viva la Revolución! ¡VIVA OLANCHO!
Most of what I have read here is excellent, thoughtful, and educational. Bravo to all who have offered really excellent insights and suggestions for growth in the movement and making it successful for the benefit of the 99%. In time, it might even become acceptable to some of the 1% once they get used to the change.
How about demanding and end to lobbying. This would put all of us on an equal footing. It would stop the bills being written by corporations of all kinds, and create jobs for people working as staff for our representatives who would be involved in writing the bills that our representatives would vote on.
Second thought, the best thing this movement can do at the moment is bring awareness and educate. That is it. If more is wanted to change our government, then we must vote, and vote for those who have a chance of being elected. In so doing, we must demand those we vote for do as we want, since they represent us.
Third, those who are committed to change had better start preparing to be our elected representatives so they can accomplish the goals.
Fourth, we must have a consensus on a few things to focus on initially, things that have broad acceptance. Other stuff can come later. Occupy must present goals that the most people can unite on.
Fifth, focusing on those united goals and an effort to truthfully inform those inside and outside the movement, all other divisive agendas must be politely moved to the side for future consideration. Cooperation needs to be an ongoing action and goal within the movement.
The campaign season has begun, and now is the opportunity to call our representative to account. We can only do that with swelling numbers of voters who show them that they will be out of office if they don't comply. We have to work with or in the system to change it, or return it to what worked in the past.
We must UNITE as "voters" with a voice on issues that we can agree on, and forget the rest for the moment. Don't throw the power of your vote away. Use it and demand change. Educate on the complexities of what needs to be done and the effects of the change, build the movement, and act in a way that can bring effective change. Make the current politicians tremble by the sheer number of voters who demand they be representatives of the 99%.
The problem with voting is, that those who have a chance at being elected are corrupt, liars who take corporate bribes. They work for their parties and their corporations, not for us.
that's why people are there, and if you are losing faith it's because you HAD NONE to begin with.
← Previous Next → Declaration of the Occupation of New York City Posted on September 30, 2011 by NYCGA THIS DOCUMENT WAS ACCEPTED BY THE NYC GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON SEPTEMBER 29, 2011 TRANSLATIONS: FRENCH, SLOVAK, SPANISH, GERMAN, ITALIAN As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage. They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses. They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation. They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization. They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices. They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions. They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right. They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay. They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility. They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance. They have sold our privacy as a commodity. They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit. They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce. They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them. They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil. They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit. They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit. They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media. They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt. They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas. They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive.
It amazes me how people come on here, who haven't read the careful words that have been posted here about why this protest is working and why it is there and just come up with the same old same old trolling stuff about why this won't work WHEN IT IS WORKING! WAKE UP AND SMELL the COFFEE. TEA PARTY WAS USURPED BY THE CORPORATIONS FROM THE BEGINNING. THIS IS THE PEOPLE WE ARE THE 99%!
It is not working. I HAVE been here from the begining. and I fully support the movement.
The problem is. Waving signs about communism and anarchy are just going to scare away most of the 99% Right now we are like the 33%
well, guess what, approval ratings (Yes those!) are up now to 45% so it is working and the support is pouring in, don't worry about it, I think being inclusive is not going to break this spirit.
I agree with you on that. I support the movement but if it embraces communism or anarchy then I would rather side with the tea partiers.
The Tea Partiers are us too! We are not "Left" Just the only people who have vocally joined so far seem to be "Left" So I say join both, join the Tea Party, then get them to join the movement. Then this can stop being a left movement and be a melting pot of ideas.
it's not a "left" movement, it is an inclusive movement, which means those voices get to be heard too.
Exactly! But there is an overwhelming amount of "left ideas"
One common goal: MONEY OUT OF POLITICS!!! It's simple and it's catchy. Get that done first and whatever other problems remain can be more easily dealt with.
WE NEED ONE GOAL....I would suggest......STOP CORPORATISM.....and everything will follow....(i think CORPORATISM is the root of all this mess)
WE NEED ONE GOAL....I would suggest......STOP CORPORATISM.....and everything will follow....(i think CORPORATISM is the root of all this mess)
The End The Fed people have the potential to corrupt this movement. The Fed and money creation was devised as a way to prevent banking panics from hurting those most vulnerable and a means for preventing the rich from taking advantage of the poor through debt. Debt can uplift the poor if done right and cripple the poor for generations if done incorrectly. Farmers wanted a money-creating agency, not the super-rich. I realize that the Fed is deeply flawed given how close its ties are to the big banks, how poorly it regulated banks, and how poorly it protected consumers. Nevertheless, the Fed's true and original purpose was a good one and worth trying to bring it back to. The Federal Reserve can be salvaged. In fact, I think the rise of the NY Fed's power within the Federal Reserve is the real problem. Ben Bernanke knows OWS is right but he's not in the political position to do anything about it
I realize you all will laugh at the last sentence, but if you follow Fed affairs closely, you will understand what I am getting at. The NY Fed runs the show
I like your argument, I would like to see you and an End the Fed supporter do some detailed research and debate.
The one goal should be to do away with every currency. this will allow us to take control of our world and communities away from the 1%. it is the only way. but we have to set up an infastructure, a common network that can reach all people. and communicate the how, when, and why of all of it. educate the people. pump the message.
...Why is that our one goal You can't get rid of currency, there has been currency since the beginning of man. Instead of $122 give me a cow and 2 chickens.
obviously you dont know anything about history of man. what was the currency for the Mayans called? how about, Incan, Egyptian, Hopi, Olmec, ancient India and so on and so on... THERE WAS NO FORM OF CURRENCY OR DOCUMENTED BARTERING OR TRADING SYSTEMS. and these people were reported to have thousands of years of peace, prosperity and incredible high tech building systems that we cannot replicte today. why do you think that is? why do you think that all of these cultures history is such a mystery to everyone because your money system had to destroy the past in order to control the people of the future.
do some research before you come at someone who knows what they are talking about. this is my life studying ancient cultures.
yes they had gold but if you look at any gold in ancient history it was used as another resource as well as to construct artifacts and build structures. there was no coin or currency. they didnt need to trade and barter. they had no slavery. they had no money. and they were more advanced thousands of yrs ago than we are today. prove me wrong i dare you.
So you suggest a communism that divides everything completely, including resources?
And I don't doubt that that could work, in Ancient history. But Humans are too ambitious and too greedy and WANT to be ahead of those around them. The world is different now.
Yu go through your daily life and try to think how you will do most of what you do without a currency.
Besides, if you get rid of currency, then the rich will just collect all the natural resources. It is greed. Humans are greedy, you can't change that.
NO I AM AGAINST COMMUNISM. THIS IS FAR FROM COMMUNISM. every region will be different depending on how they decide to live. everyone in the world doenst want everything. your really only talking about American greed not humanity as a whole.
most people dont want to live in giant mansions like your mtv philosophy seems to think. most people just want to have their own place or property and all the amenities to be able to survive and thrive withouth stressing day in and day how they will keep food in their kids stomach if they get fired.
you think the starving and oppressed people around the world all just sit around being jealous and wanting to live like americans. haha. America is enslaving the world with big business if anything most every counrty wants to get rid of the "western way of life" they hate us. dont you get that.
because our country men force them them to use money in order to eat and live and so we, American companies build factories in these countries and pay them pennies to make your greedy ass shoes and clothes on your back right now. they arent watching mtv cribs, like, "oh yeah some day..." they dont even have tv because they work twice as long and 5 times harder than you ever have to barely afford to live in a broke down shack the size of one of the bathrooms in your house, with contaminated water, and no food. wake up man. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!
how do you collect natural resources? are they going to pocket the oceans, bottle the air, and suck the geothermic engergy from the planet? how do you collect abundant resources? lmfao. they might try to control bottled water or something like that lol but that wont matter.
I'm pretty sure essentially every culture on earth had a monetary system by the time America came into being, so it's not like we created the 'evil' concept of money and forced it upon the world...
well im sorry to tell you that you are wrong. No ANCIENT culture has provided any evidence of money, barter or trade. Mayan, Incan, Olmec, Hopi, Egyptian, India, Asia... not a single one.
Here is a clear, concise goal: We want a SEPARATION OF CORPORATION AND STATE.
The detailed reasons for this are set forth at: http://occupywallst.org/forum/first-official-release-from-occupy-wall-street/
Once corporations can no longer elect people to Congress, then the social issues (Health care, food/air/water safety, alternative energy, living minimum wage, etc) can be addressed. It simply cannot work if Congress is owned by corporate CEOs.
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." --Louis Brandeis
Yes, by all means, STOP MAKING DEMANDS!!!
Please let the organ grinders your leaders!
Please continue to be the sheep and cheeky monkeys you were before this all started!!
Please stop having a political will and an opinion!! Your betters know what is good for you.....
I'm not saying that, I'm saying "YOU know which demands are controversial, stop shouting about destroying democracy and shout about the overarching goals we all share. Once we gain momentum from all sides of the political spectrum, THEN you can shout about you many (sometimes crazy) demands"
http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet/comments/kyjo2/an_open_letter_and_warning_from_a_former_tea/
Please stop referring to our system of governance as a "Democracy". We are a Representative Constitutional Republic. Every "Democracy" that has ever existed in this world has failed throughout history -- and if someone somehow manages to manipulate our system of governance to create a Democracy, we too will fail. It's not a matter of if, but when.
Our political system has failed us because the lines between policy and corporatism have been blurred, between policy and militarism have been blurred, between policy and justice have been blurred. We have a president who usurps congressional power through executive order. We have justices legislating from the bench, we have legislators who frankly have given up entirely...
Our system of governance works only when We The People hold them accountable for everything and force them to operate within the constraints intended (The Constitution). Keep letting them redefine the Constitution, and it will never be fixed.
The first thing the legislators need to do is to attach the portion of the constitution they use to define a piece of legislation when they submit it for debate. No Constitution, no bill, no vote. Start with fixing the corruption in politics!
Republics have failed too. I want a combination. Representatives to create and vote on initial laws. but the People should have veto power on any law that effects them.
Republics fail when the people turn them into a Democracy like you are proposing. Sorry, but giving the power of the vote directly to the people will result in epic failure because the majority will demonstrate the very greed that they claim to be against right now - by voting themselves every entitlement they can get from the public coffers.
Republics also fail when we don't include democracy like I have proposed. We get a detached government that runs our country like a rogue AI that feels like it doesn't need to do anything for us. (like we have now)
So you fix the problem and work on reinstating the democratic principles embedded within the representative republic... don't change to a democracy. Our system works when it is not corrupted. Democracy doesn't work.
you cant bribe a whole nation. I am just saying obviouslythe republic didn't work very well. I would like some veto power over the idiots in Congress
That would require a constitutional convention and a rewrite of the Constitution... not going to happen no matter how long these people occupy Wall Street.
It could just involve an amendment.
Well said. Thank you.
it's a good point, and i somewhat try and portray the same message, but people just aren't seeming to get it.
The media would like nothing more than to pin down A leader, An issue, and financial backers. When they do that they will move on.
I feel we should avoid giving them those things. Who is the leader or spokes person? We all are leaders. Pick any one. We speak for ourselves not the movement.
We have no single issue. We each have our own issues. What we have in common is that we are the 99%. We have no lobbyists. We have no loopholes. We have no political parties. We have no politicians. We can't afford them. No one printed signs for us. We each make our own. This is not a political movement. It is a social movement.
We are on the short end of the income disparity and the wealth disparity. We are the 99%.
"...we have no single issue..."
And therein lies the problem.
All very noble and I agree, but we do need a clear, broad, even vague message the whole world can support. "No more corruption" or whatever. But yelling about highly controversial things like anarchy and communism aren't going to make any friends. We will sooner be engulfed by the Democrats before the whole 99% joins us.
Remember, by bringing on institution down you are making way for a new one. Just be prepared if you don't like the new one, or if it's even worse than the one that is in place now. I agree with what this group is trying to accomplish, keep it up you guys :)
Don't demolish it. Rennovate it.
One agenda: Fix the system. Keep it simple. Center, focus.
Right now, the protesters are using the scattergun approach. They chant and post signs for all kinds of issues. Nothing will be accomplished this way.
But, thousands of people all yelling "Fix the system", in unison, all the time (even at night, when all the college kids are doing shoutouts and using their iPads) will demand more attention and garner more actual media coverage as well.
Also, please don't ask for money to help protesters keep warm at night, without promising to donate all unused monies and all purchased items to local charities. I, personally, am not going to send any money to anyone just so some hipster college kid can stay warm in the park and drink hot chocolate. Besides, protesting financial inequality and asking for money from your neighbors so you can continue protesting just seems kinda lame.
Knock off the late night gossip and chatter, too. This isn't summer camp, and I hate seeing kids in LL Bean sweatshirts using expensive Apple products on the late night live streams, because they don't represent the majority of us at all.
Focus your energy and your efforts on one cause, make sure you're also taking care of anyone in need near your protest, and never stop yelling, chanting and singing. Do this, and you will accomplish something. Don't do this, and you may as well all go home.
Yes, there should be one clear message. I went down to Wall Street last week and the mission wasn't clear to me from the signs. I knew what was going on because I had already been on the site. I say one message : take the money out of the system. we all deserve a voice. That should suffice.
I agree. They should also share with the many hobs they meet during their marches.
http://signon.org/sign/public-funded-elections.fb1?source=c.fb&r_by=1251455
I 100% agree with you and will do everything I can to spread this message. We need to think critically about what we are doing with this opportunity. We need to educate ourselves in a way that is unbiased as possible.We need to act compassionately to those potential supporters of our cause and those we work alongside.
Thank you.
Join occupation.freeforums.org
It is a new forum designed to be a more structured way to further this movement.
Don't lose faith its only in its infancy and it will have growing pains. You see Americans are very organized people. You can see it the way they clean their houses and cars, etc. A new movement like this one is going to be disorganized and make mistakes the rest will have to bear. Its ok, it will all come together soon.
If you can give out dvd's of lets say the documentary" the inside job" people may begin to understand. I know people that are wondering why there's a protest and don't know why. Play it 24 /7 outside the protest area for tourist , people ,friends to watch and yea also the wall streeter.
AGREED. A common movement is the right movement. We need to align and move in one direction with one cause. The other causes are just, but if we position our protest in the same direction with the same request or demand, then more will listen. And in turn more will follow. All Americans feel the same way we do, we need to bring all Americans in old and young, blue collar or white collar. Show Wall Street and our Politicians this is an American movement not a student movement.
Well, one goal. We have many demands to reach that goal. But those demands should be for that goal.
Join Occupation.FreeForums.org It is a new, more organized site that is designed to bring this movement forward.
Just read the coments, Mob, well lets see what was the last Gun Toting Tea Party Protest called? That will be my last comment. The Corporate funded Tea Party is tring to Jam the movement on this page with comments. Folks pay no attention. They will hang themselves with their ignorant coments. Let them ramble on it is going to bring us some of the best comedy material yet! It's like traveling back into time!
Do you want to just complain or do you really want to explore solutions? http://subsidizedlabor.org
Thank You.........This is not a new problem and Americans must Unite. This is the result of many years and I have waiting for a revolution. Forget politics PLEASE it is all bought and paid for in one way or another. I want Democracy, but it is time to shake it up! KEEP IT UNITED, KEEP IT PEACEFULL, KEEP IT SAFE!
Thank You.........This is not a new problem and Americans must Unite. This is the result of many years and I have waiting for a revolution. Forget politics PLEASE it is all bought and paid for in one way or another. I want Democracy, but it is time to shake it up! KEEP IT UNITED, KEEP IT PEACEFULL, KEEP IT SAFE!
Great post.
Yes. Please see the following. It is support of Democratic Capitalism.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/708507790/protest-to-prosperity-occupy-wall-street-pamphlet
How do you reconcile "your democracy" with The Constitution?
What do you mean?
You say "fix our democracy". Yet, we're a democratic republic, with the Constitution as the law of the land. If the Constitution is not enforced, then the democracy is worthless, and vice versa. There is no pure democracy. A "democracy" requires the elimination of the Constitution.
Why? What part of the constitution do YOU not agree on? The constitution can be rewritten if the majority f Americans do not agree with it, but most of us do, so what don't YOU like about it?
I agree. We can't change everything all at once. Also to put a little bit more definition in that goal...Political contributions from corporations and special interest groups need to be illegal. The sooner we get politicians in the government that realize they are not going to get rich by passing policy for the ones who can afford to buy it, the sooner other positive changes will be made for the good of all.
Fullest agreement. Please see my response to you on my own thread. Perhaps the thing to do is...make a splinter group? Or at least a splinter forum dedicated to exactly the sort of discussion you're talking about here and nothing else. Questions of tone, policy points, and strategy.
The question to answer at the outset is whether that would also just devolve into a disorganized free-for-all, or otherwise be divisive; or how distinguishing ourselves from the primary group (is there such a thing?) could still allow us to identify ourselves with that/this group. But certainly I think there seems to be an evident and growing split between people who value the 'leaderless free-for-all' model of just raising every concern under the sun and bringing every cause into the Square, and those who want to see 'the movement' achieve real focus--which seems basically to be realigning itself more decisively with the original rallying point suggested by AdBusters, ending government corruption by getting big money out of the political process. This is itself a multi-headed problem, and that's why it needs closer, tighter focus, away from the pipe dream wishlists of fantasists and conspiracy theorists.
So there's the question, really: is narrowing the focus of the Occupation (which I mean to be inclusive of any of the national occupations) something that can realistically happen within the Occupation, or does doing so entail going off on a sort of originalist tangent that would have to become its own thing? Which, even there, is question-begging for me, because it implies that the problem is (as, from many threads below, it patently is) that what constitutes the goals of the Occupation has become confused by its supporters.
Does this all make sense?
I think we should start by trying to convince them of what I have stated above. Spread the word. Most protestors just cling to demands that sound good. If it doesn't spread enough. We can make a splinter group. figure out the best way to re do this properly. And then when it looks like this had failed, we come out and start it up again, announcing that we have learned and grown from our previous demonstrations and are ready to do this right.
This won't happen till the far leftist and Marxist put a lid on it.
I know, which is why I posted this. But you could join them, and explain your views and tell them why their demands are hurting the movement. Don't tell them they are wrong, just that they should wait.
I tried, they get mad and refuse to listen b/c they think they have to spread Marxism at any cost.
Well then ask them why this general goal isn't enough for now. And if they don't understand, then explain it to those around them. If everyone but them disregard them, they will stop, or they will be engulfed in the unifying message.
They've already hijacked the protest. As for why it's not enough, for them it's all or nothing and it's not above them to use you or I as their pawn if they think they can get away with it. Just can't trust them.
Well talks are already starting of rational people like you and I joining a seperate forum where we can grow and lie in wait and decide how to do these things better. and when this movement dies, we come out, under the same pretenses, declaring we have learned from previous occupations and are ready to fix the country
Message me a link if you have it. I'm about done with these unrealistic direction less fools.
We haven't started it yet, but we will post it on this forum when we do
Prithee, how will that screen out people not on the same page?
It won't, but we will have to tell them what the point of the site is about.
Ah, good ol' messy democracy. But like minds can converse in private at an assembly. How about by invite--like a discussion group? Even that has a half life.
As you must know, disrupters of every stripe have private discussion groups up with traffic that must be spiking considerably over the past three weeks.
A lid on what?
Marxism
So it only happens if it becomes the Tea Party? I dont want Marxism but I am out if it is just the same thing.
It doesn't need a political ideology. Focus on the corrupt wall st / congress relationship and leave the fucking isms at home.
Yes, I agree. Surely the "unwashed" masses of the 99% can all agree on this. Everyone needs to unite for this common cause. Raised fists!
i can think of 50 other things they need to do or fail.. you haven't really even hit the top of the iceberg yet on all of this..
Like what? Please tell me all of them. They need all the guidence they can get!
Then also, find situations or laws that are unjust. I mean MLK was protesting, right before he died, higher wages for trash collectors. "End the Fed" is a nice slogan but few people really even understand all that, but the wearethe99percent site with real stories about real people and videos/pictures of real true heavy handedness by the police are worth their weight in gold
They have to keep marching.....keep moving no matter what. If there is somewhere they want to demonstrate, they cannot allow themselves to be rounded up. Either keep marching or sit down. Also there need to be constant large protests all the time. It cant be a once a week thing.
a wiki. 1001 sub forums. a meta process so that they don't have adminatrolls being abusive in the chat forums. Process. Formal conversational logic. Non Violent communication. Serious problem solving centered in actual science. Open source direct democracy think tanks. I could go on but thats the short list.
People need to be out in the streets, not sitting on their computers and creating wikis.
really? because game theory says the streets are a giant waste of time until the message is clear and solid, and so in fact science says its the other way. Theres nothing to say once you get into the streets until AFTER the wiki. People need to be on the wiki; not out in the streets.
Well the last few need to wait until there is more diversity. But I agree. Luckily what is most important is the people on the streets.
But yes, those would all make this easier. But I think that the goal I have stated is their only way of making a permanent difference.
its a great bit but like all the other bits so short its too simple by 9/10s. i agree. i wish it was so simple. thats why so many people put out these bits and why none of you guys are reading each other. you think you have really golden thought it through and so do 101 other people. instead of meeting each other in pirate pad, and getting busy, its all slipping through the cracks because its yanking and pulling in different directions. Your approach to be blunt thus sucks. you smoked some doja and had some epiphanies to share with us... its just not as awesome as you think because thats the same thing 101 other people did and before they all went and read the texts on viral revolutions or paradigm shifts. In short. You all brainstorm up neato shit. now if you could all get together in pirate pad and some textbooks you might have something. till then you won't get this heard really because everyone else is emitting like you are and failing to read the back log of nearly identical threads- just like you.
I read every thread that I find. I am never intoxicated by anything (except sleep) And am trying to pull in all the directions at the same time.
please don't take it personally. i think all things considered you are top of the line front of the crowd. its still needing pirate pad and to have everyone elses epiphany storms spliced in. ever been to pirate pad? This is a serious advice moment... put this in pirate pad and link us to it. Don't just write it here. Invite everyone to edit it real time with you.
Never heard of it, but please, start a thread here to invite people to it.
http://piratepad.net/front-page/ clickit.
Seems like a bigger mess than this forum?
yeah. seems like you need to get people involved in editing your document sos that they in general feel like they are represented inside of it.
Bravo, Bravo, Bravo ... of course the old guards, vanguards, moles and general assholes are trying to co-opt a simple, brilliant idea--comes with the territory. The Left wants a piece or all of this, and the Right wouldn't turn it down. Keep posting your on-target message. Thank you sincerely.
You too, please repost this on every site about OWS you can find. IDC if you take credit for it. It just needs to get out there.
You must gather the masses together under the banner of justice. This questioning of, "What do they want?" seems to me to be a sort of loaded question being asked to make the movement seem illegitimate. What you want is justice and the restoration of the American Dream. The trouble is that there is another group, that works for the 1% which claims it wants the same thing. So this must be about a sort of justice for the masses. I like the idea that the homeless are invited, the unions are invited, the disaffected are invited, everyone is invited. All races and all religions are invited. Everyone everywhere is invited. This talk about a list of demands has the unintended effect of narrowing the movement. That is what the 1% wants a great deal.
I agree. We do not have demands. We have a goal. We have grivences. And soon, we will have solutions.
Finally - a post very worthy of being posted! Bravo!
Please, if ya'll ask for anything, make sure it does not infringe upon the rights of others (including taking money from me to pay for something I don't want/need).
I agree a concise goal needs to be stated and pursued ... That's why I'm taking the action I have chosen. I'm filing criminal complaints on our public servants (congress, etc etc etc) for not abiding by their Oath (which is Treason), to the federal grand jury, local grand jury, sheriff, etc.. The docs should be complete in a few days and the template will be made available for anyone choosing to do the same. Please feel free to contact me for more info.
While I'm covering Congress members, maybe someone could begin doing this on Financial Folks (bankers). I'm sure codes/statutes were broken...
bravo on your action.great idea.
Thanks - thankfully I have the outline now complete (having never done this before, I'm shocked writing it out is that easy LOL)
Good job! I'm glad we are tackling this on multiple fronts. If you can please join the occupation and share your ideas with the group, we need more diversity!
If you can't please remain a regular on this form.
I will be posting the criminal complaints at www.WeRoar.ws/freespeak in the forum. You're welcome to participate/check it out.
I will do my best to continue sharing here as well, however I really want to get the docs completed and am working on another task as well-which should have been finished today, but I got a head cold and just couldn't research the final 3 supreme court decisions. Poor excuse, I know LOL
Trust me, I haven't been reading my criminal law textbooks lately either.
Outline is now posted ;o) http://weroar.ws/freespeak/forum/#topic/Criminal-Complaint-Outline.htm
I understand your point. But first we must gather the masses. We need support...like minded people with great ideas to fix the system. The system is broke.We need all the help we can get fro We The People. We don't need nay sayers.negativities and don'ts. We will not fail. Sooner not later the people who are against this movement will be for it. We The People are ALL IN THE SAME BOAT!! ROW!
I know that is what we need....which is why I said we need an over arching goal that everyone understands and desires, not little ones that only some people understand and want. If we keep this up, we will make people against us forever.
anonymous,we are growing. people will not be against us forever. Just not gonna happen that way.
Sigh. I'm telling you, if we don't get our act together. The extreme conservatives are going to see this as a left wing nut job assembly and they will never join us. Which, btw, is what the system wants.
I want to tell you one thing. The extreme conservatives chose to align themselves with the 1%. No one can help that and they will not come off of that. Have I not tried? On the other hand, alot of them have a vested interest in the status quo. But the numbers are small in reality. I would say only about 20% are extreme. Those you wont get anyway so there is no use in being upset by it.
Post this up on http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet
Okay, I will try. But I'm tired of making accounts for these sites. Feel free to copy and paste this as is. Idc if you claim it as your own, just spread the message.
reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet/comments/l2k77/if_you_read_anything_about_occupy_wall_street/
"A fair, democratic, representative government that views us all equally"
I like this
Thank you. Please Spread this goal. This should be the umbrella that covers all of our other smaller interests. This is something we can all agree on. The only thing we differ on is how to achieve this.
Everybody imposes their hopes and dreams on something like this. You're doing it too. If you do, you will be disappointed. A mob attracts all kinds.
Personally, I'm gratified to see the End The Fed signs. The money issue just simply trumps all the rest of it. It made the things everyone is protesting possible. Without it there wouldn't be this concentration of money and power and the consequent ruination of our country and our society. It's the one thing everyone can agree on once they learn the truth. It's the main issue that matters. Fix that, or all the rest is in vain. Mark my words.
I only stand opposed to the end the fed signs because that will not feed hungry children now. That will not help educate our children now. That will not help people to get into well paying jobs now. I think we need to focus on the one year goal instead of the ten or fifty year goal.
but why would you be opposed? you can be neutral but opposition is a totally different thing.
OK, I will stipulate that I am neutral. I only wonder what unintended consequences there would be.
If you don't fix the money issue, you won't fix anything else.
Also, the End The Fed signs are educational. That's why they're out there! To get you to google Money As Debt, and learn why this issue trumps all the rest.
I haven't heard a good enough argument to support what you have said yet, but that is not the point. Perhaps End the Fed is ONE of the answers on our way to freedom. But we need to understand that it is a step. Our GOAL is Freedom and True Democracy.
Right now is the time to tell people: "We want the government to be run by you! To help YOU! We are the 99%, YOU are the 99%"
Then when all sides come together. We can have a balanced discussion on what are the most crucial steps to getting our government back. Not how can we cure world hunger. But how can we fix our government so IT works to work for US.
I support your goals too. We need to take the gun and the whip away from the master.
very well said. I agree that right now the most important thing is to gather people to the cause.
Thank you, please spread this message. I've been so stressed seeing so many people concentrate on the little things and push the rest of our members away.
It's too late! The coming bitter cold and snow will soon suffocate the movement's iconic stage, (Wall Street). A very disappointing end. Even at this late stage, the movement continues to abdicate the urgency to tap into the emotional posture of the masses. They inexplicably refuse to to tap into the waves of rage and disaffection pleading at their doors. The OWS organizers proved themselves to be more propagandized and elitist than those whom they were insisting to rescue. What the movement didn't comprehend is that the masses were not asking to join a discourse on the failings of capitalism. Neither were they looking for lectures about the many governmental and social ills disenfranchising them. In a word: the masses were seeking leaders!; and this OWS movement failed them hands down. Why didn't a leadership form? Essentially, because the OWS movement founder Kalle Lasn (Ad Busters) is a most dubious character at best. The delusional utopian nature of the OWS creed/demands has Lasn's fingerprints all over it. Regardless, Lasn must have clearly recognized that his taking a public leadership role would have placed him under extreme srutiny; albeit with prejudice. The media would have had a field day exposing his nefarious past. No one, especially someone with the intellectual calibre and marketing acumen of Ad Busters, could possibly believe that the movement would remain effective when it was so severely disabled and leaderless. It's almost as if the Ad Busters crew decided to run against the weather clock; while at the same time collecting thousands of unaccounted Money Order donations. No, sad to say, this OWS movement was invented on the whim of the Ad Buster marketing team. I suspect that it's early success very much surprised even them. Clearly, the movement's present frail posture is ample evidence to the fact that it was never intended to grow and mature into a social force to be reckoned with. Otherwise, they would have recruited a consensus leadership and prepared for the next level: confronting the domination powers. So, OWS will extinguish itself with a frozen sneeze when the cold weather arrives in it's fury. Regardless of the many sincere genuine participants/followers, the closure of OWS in iconic NY Site will result in many more fraudulent pretences and start-ups nationwide between December and March. It will be Spring before something concrete and viable rises out of these ashes of disillusionment; just in time for the increased political forces coming into play for the 2012 Election.
Tea Party people are true patriots. You people are communists and socialists. The first video of this "occupywallst.org" is of a speech by a self-admitted Communist.
This is what your movement is all about. It is ANTI-American.
Tea Party people are true patriots. You people are communists and socialists. The first video of this "occupywallst.org" is of a speech by a self-admitted Communist.
This is what your movement is all about. It is ANTI-American.
Tea Party people are true patriots. You people are communists and socialists. The first video of this "occupywallst.org" is of a speech by a self-admitted Communist.
This is what your movement is all about. It is ANTI-American.
no this is not true, they are not all communists and socialists, many actually believe in democracy. http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-union-of-all-dissatisfied-peoples-ows-and-even-t/
Nooooo this movement is about people who love what this country was supposed to be and can see that it didn't end up that way. That communist was ONE person speaking FOR HIMSELF. Why is that so hard to understand?? Are you afraid of individuality? We are people, we differ. There are liberals and conservatives at OWS. Hippies and lawyers. Communists and capitalists. They all are different, doesn't mean they can't unite to ward off injustice.
I love the constitution. I am a lawyer, so in my mind it is the ultimate law in he land. Yet I am not afraid to speak to the communist, because 1) Communism will never be popular in America. 2) He can have his own opinions, and I may learn something from him.
You are closed minded, you have been taught that "to be a patriot" you must be uniform. You can't think differently than anyone else. I'm here to tell you that that is UNPATRIOTIC. There is nothing more patriotic than exercising the freedom of speech and information and free thought that we are supposed to be guaranteed.
TL;DR : That was one person, most of us love democracy and capitalism, we just want to fix them, because they obviousl aren't working and corporations are distorting our constitution.
99%? More like 9.9%.
If you think that 10% of the population, highly motivated, can't bring serious change then I strongly advise you to educate yourself in the history of revolutions and popular movements.
Hahaha yes, for now, until the rest of America wakes up and realizes they aren't far away from unemployment.
The only reason the movement will fail is because of Terrorist Christians who are members of the terrorist group the FBI call, ANONYMOUS who want to over throw the US government.
Lmao XD Did you call Anonymous Christian Terrorists? What makes you think everyone in Anonymous is Christian? Actually, they have been doing a lot of work helping people of Muslim nations.
I genuinly would like to know what brought you to this conclusion.
America and Europe has 85% Christians so any group in America and Europe has a high number of Christians and Catholics, do the math, not every body is dumb. The FBI calls ANONYMOUS Terrorist and they are, ANONYMOUS Christian Terrorist or the New KKK who hide behind a mask like the KKK. Common criminals and terrorist who are psychos. Prove to me what they have been doing to help the Muslim nations, all I hear is bull shit that they did something but no real proof, talk is cheap where is the hard proof, their words are lies. What did they do help LGBT people to get the right to marry in America? They are a scam Christian group who want to take over the government for Jesus or some such shit. Not everybody falls for their false lies and bull shit. They are just another hate group or terrorist like the FBI says. Don't trust them they are a scam who want your money and a they lie and only make trouble.
Okay. 1) You believe the FBI? Give me one piece of evidence that shows this? Do you even know the definition of Terrorist? I bet you don't :) 2) They defended Egypts right to the internet when Mubarak tried to shut it down. They helped bring it back up. I don't know if you knew, but Egypt is mostly Muslim. In fact Anonymous supported (both online and on the ground) Most of the Arab Spring movements. 3) You don't even know what Anonymous is (neither does the FBI) Anonymous is EVERYONE. You are Anonymous and I am anonymous. Anonymous is everyone that doesn't agree with censorship and unjust control. 4) What do you expect them to do for LGBT? LGBT have their own activists, and all they can really do is protest. So they should go protest. What this country does to the LGBT community is terrible, but no one can help them other than through protests. And where are you getting this Jesus shit? Anonymous if filled with all types of people and never once have they made a statement or action that has favored any type of religion. Also, they never ask for money, what are you talking about? And finally, they are not terrorists period
All types of people are 85% Christian. ANONYMOUS uses unjust control and censorship so you are just as guilty as the enemy you claim to have, if only in you little brains.
Anybody with a brain knows that the CIA is behind what is happening in the Middle East and the world and some are are ANONYMOUS ass holes too.
Tell the truth ANONYMOUS are Terrorist Christians who want to kill gays not help them, your excuse to not help gays is more lies and bull shit. LOL if you can help the Middle East like you claim then you can help gays and no they do not have the right to get married in America so they still need help, nice try to lie about that one sparky, again we are not all dumb and can see the truth and a lie when you say one. Sorry Charley but you are nothing but ANONYMOUS CHRISTIAN TERRORIST and everybody knows this. Loose the mask cowards and come out of the crazy closet, losers
1) I am not Christian. Period. 2) By all types I meant black, white, asian (there are a good amount of hackers, if you believe in stereotypes lol), christian, muslim, satanist, jewish, etc! 3) What is worse? "I can't get married!" or "I am ruled by a dictator who is shutting down my protest!" I support all LGBT movements, but they can help themselves. If LGBT staged a large protest, and a Swat team attacked them, I can Guarantee that Anonymous would help. Don't believe me? Then get off your ass and start a protest! 4) Yes, the CIA causes many problems in the Middle east, what does that have to do with Anonymous? 5) I'm not lying, I have no reason to lie. ACTUALLY now that I think about it, I believe there is an Anonymous video in which they mention the LGBT community and their hardships. 6) There are big problems in this world. There is murder, starvation, and corruption. Anonymous is supporting this movement, which wants to end corruption in the government. The LGBT community can then push for more rights, or move to a state that gives them the right to Marry. (Like MA) I don't know what your issue is with Anonymous or :LGBT but you have some biases. I know that people claiming to be christian have done terrible things in the name of Jesus, but there is no proof that Anon is Christian
You just said ANONYMOUS are Christian fool, you are little people who have gone mad and you have been exposed as the Terrorist the FBI says you are. No body if falling for your false information and propaganda, you are just a bunch of religious nuts who hate, no different than the Right Wing Christians, you have no real power just a lot of crazy young pawns making trouble for others while you collect your money from suckers who have not yet herd about your LLC in Bermuda, must be nice living on an island and drinking kool aid. ANONYMOUS sucks.
Now you are just making things up, I didn't say they are Christian. There is not one example of bigotry or hate that you can produce. And Anonymous has never asked for money
LOL you must be on dope.
LOL You are a dope. that wasn't a response. I made many holes in your claims and you have no retort. Go back to school, learn a thing or two, then come play in the big leagues
The big leagues ain't you ass hole you are just a little mad man with a computer. You have no proof of doing anything to really help the people in fact you have done more to hurt the people and they know it, can't fool all the people all the time losers. The FBI is looking for you Anonymous Terrorist, now they know where to find you.
Okay, neither of us have proof of help nor hurt. so those cancel each other out. Let's drop it. Also, what is a Terrorist? Someone the FBI doesn't like? Yeah that sounds about right. Anonymous has only done one illegal thing, and that was steal a few emails from a company that stole from them first. Sounds more like theft, not Terrorism.
Besides, Anonymous has Millions of members! If 5 people hack an email, that makes the whole group liable? You should go to law school like me before you try to tell ME how the world works.
Oh look, Sad Keanu is sadder because his bike got run over:: Your Argument is Invalid. Later Epic Fail Guy. :) I Have won, because it is clear to everyone that reads this that I have won ^^
That's funny millions of members, now you are starting to sound like the Catholic church again. The only "anonymous members" the FBI catch are some loser punks with a computer who has been suckered into being a pawn for anonymous hackers who, yes steal from people, so you admit you are criminals and the way you do it makes you Terrorist. You have won nothing loser. You need to see a psychiatrist for that delusion problem of yours. The people who can read know that Anonymous people are terrorist that the FBI is looking for. You must be a Christian because you seem to be living in a fairy tale, if only in your twisted mind.
I am atheist. But that doesn't matter. What does matter is that criminal activities do not equal terrorism. I am in awe in how deep your delusions go. So delusional that everything anyone says equals whatever deluded point you have. You still haven't told me what facts lead a reasonable person (which you are not) to believe that anonymous is christian.
Terrorist liar, nobody can believe you or anything ANONYMOUS says or does you try to pr suckers and do nothing but break the law and stir shit up to make trouble. You are the only delusional people who are crazy mad men who will soon be caught by the FBI and put in prison where you crazy fucks belong. You crazy Jesus Freaks, we know who you really are.
What the hell!? Who gives a fuck about Jesus in a world of constant suffering!? You are the one making ungrounded assumptions. There is no lie there. I only made a statement that is proven by your recent posts. And by WE you mean YOU. I have read many criticisms, critics, and reviews about anonymous, and you are the only who thinks this way. So here is my conclusion: I have given you enough cake, if you are not satiated with the amount I have provided yet, then you are a glutton. I am glad I can feed the hungry, but I am running out of cake, and there are many other Trolls about on these forums. Your game was weak, and you were unoriginal. Enjoy the cave that is your mother's basement :)
You are full of shit. You and your Christian Anonymous Terrorist freaks want to take over the government and set up a Christian dictatorship like Hitler and run America like Nazi Germany did and kill off anybody who is not one of you nut jobs. You have done nothing but made people suffer.
Here is a a goal/demand/end to unite and work for. The work has already been done and the framework is in place already:
The American Form of Government - http://youtu.be/DioQooFIcgE
Sorry , but Revolution is a messy business friend. You have to break a few eggs to get real change.
What? We aren't "breaking eggs" we are just polarizing ourselves and ruining the only thing that can give us an edge. The 99%! I don't want this to just get a few demands recognized. I want this to change the course of history!
You've already done that just by holding this whole protest. Its just the beginning. People have had it with an elite that we know hates us and has decided to treat us all with increasing violence and contempt. Its called Class warfare friendo and we've been having the shit kicked out of us. Time to stand up and fight back!
YES You are right! But we need to organize and train before we enter the martial arts tournament.
Were already in it! Time to fight.
You will probably get your leg swept
Maybe, but I'm a black belt and a Tai Chi guy for 20 yrs. so it won't be that easy a sweep as you think.
Is that still a metaphor?
The metaphor is lost on him I think but the truth is the war has begun and we entered ill prepare the media has spun this to make us out to be lazy dirty hippies mean while the feds strip us of our liberties negate states rights corporations change laws to suit there profit margins and all of this in the last three days. The powered that be believe you will fail and are launching an all out attack on all fronts to crush us but it won't happen never in history has an oppressed people had such access to knowledge and the ability to communicate to quote a song by the flobots we are winning " if you are thinking you are winning resistance is victory defeat is impossible "
Great quote. And I doubt there would be anything we could do that the Media wouldn't have put a spin on.
Our survival as humankind is a nice project for all.