Forum Post: Ideas, Solutions & Strategies
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 2, 2011, 12:49 a.m. EST by N01
(79)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
This forum is intended to think of ideas on how to use to power of the occupy movement aka 99%. To discuss Ideas, Solutions & Strategies. What should be done next? Should the Occupy movement consider smaller occupy divisions, for example City Hall, Law 2.0, etc.. Just keep em coming.
Occupy Goal Should Be?
1)No Corporation Influence in Government Process
2)Fair Tax System
3)The End of Creating Money out of "Nothing"
4)Create A Green Economy & Investments
5)Health Policy to guarantee Proper Health Benefits Without Finical Ruin. (Agree/Disagree/Modify)
6)Privacy, Limit the use of 3rd party intrusion. (Ex: Facebook, Patriot act) (Agree/ Disagree/ Modify)
7)Government Transparency (Agree / Disagree / Modify)
Goal Here Should Be ?
Create a proper and comprehensive proposal to bring forth to the GA (General Assembly) to organize &streamline using 21st century thinking. (Agree / Disagree ?)
Amend Constitution Possible Solutions
1) https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/restore-democracy-ending-corporate-personhood (Need opinions)
2) http://www.lobbydemocracy.com/ (Need opinions)
3) [-] ryancozzens 2 points 3 days ago
The court is obligated to defend the constitution. The cases in question were decided because the constitution is not specific about the identity of corporations. A constitutional amendment removing corporate personhood would automatically void any previous decisions based on the new amendment.
However. I think a better option would be a constitutional amendment making it illegal to take ANY private money for a campaign, and making lobbying a limited enterprise.
But Regardless of the specific outcome, we cant ask the Supreme Court to overturn a ruling they based on the current version of the constitution. (Need Opinion)
Organization Solutions
eVoting Polls - Multiple Solutions (Need Voluntaries to agree/write spec)
Anytime you disrupt peoples lives by blocking sidewalks, streets & parks and cause allready strapped local governments to use resources to either protect you or deal with your organized Unlawful protests, you are going to lose support in any cause you support. Protesting legally will get you further!
get organized on a voting system, gain consensus and action plans for structuring, building up the nation....then hit the streets with a clear goal and purpose.
I like this idea but why don't we push it a little further and draft a new constitution?
I was talking about the movement, but i think that does make sense. One of many solutions. Right now the movement need to think more short term, get fully organized before winter hits.
Amend Constitution
Amend the constitution so that corporation are not Human Beings, but for legal process are recognized as legal people but not actual people.
You can do something about this. Sign the petition.
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/restore-democracy-ending-corporate-personhood/KQYzl8S5
On the whitehouse site? Hysterical...
Amend Constitution Possible Solutions
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/restore-democracy-ending-corporate-personhood/KQYzl8S5 What do you think everyone?
Overturn "Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern_Pacific_Railroad
Good Idea or not? P.S Its how corporations became people
But I am for an amendment that calls for stripping them of their legal person-hood.
No! The problem is their legal standing! It is in the courts that this definition matters.
The court is obligated to defend the constitution. The cases in question were decided because the constitution is not specific about the identity of corporations. A constitutional amendment removing corporate personhood would automatically void any previous decisions based on the new amendment.
However. I think a better option would be a constitutional amendment making it illegal to take ANY private money for a campaign, and making lobbying a limited enterprise.
But Regardless of the specific outcome, we cant ask the Supreme Court to overturn a ruling they based on the current version of the constitution.
agree
disagree, the Constitution takes precedence over any law.
its not against the federal law to kill someone, but the state courts,, ah this is the key.
This past Saturday, when the least amount of people watch television, Obama announced that the U.S. has now been declared under 'national emergency'. Under a national emergency, no-one has any civil rights. Government can do anything they want with you. Sounds to me like OWS is in for a rough ride. Hold on tight!
Leynna, you are hallucinating.
Permanent Voting Stations (All Year Round)
Voting booths where all legislation is passed by the people.... No Congress, No Senate.....?!?
Electronic voting system maybe too secretive and the media & the politicians will choose to ignore it, to deny it. The voting system must be highly "visible". Or make a highly visible electronic voting device.
It could print a receipt would could go into a ballot box. If the e-vote did not match the ballot box, somethings up....
I still believe the establishment will ignore the vote. If you vote a law, they won't even mention it. Maybe... people can vote to DO something which may IMPACT the everyday functioning of the government, the banks, etc. Like the Bank Transfer Day which forces BOA to react.
I think there are many possible ideas/scenario, but with out a goal in place, a reason do this, and why? I like the idea but i don't think we at that stage yet.
Hi, you may be interested in this electronic verified voting system that I wrote, GPL / free-software / freeware / open-source: law4.org/sede This is a published system, stable. You can use it to ask people any number of votes on an electronic ballot (like an e-mail); and they are free to vote whatever they want so they are not confined to cooked options. Secondly they can comment on each matter, everything is published anonymously.
Would there be a way to only give access to the actual occupiers. Perhaps passing out randomly generated emails... i thin the goal should be to focus on the actual occupiers, help them get organized? you thoughts?
Absolutely, of course. The way to do it is go to a protest, and you can either use the push or pull method of ballot delivery. A push method is where you supply them access methods like an email account or some kind of a web-thing passwd/user combo thing. The benefit is that you hand it out, and it's fixed: fast. The pull method is where you ask them to supply you an e-mail address, however if they want anonymity they would need to register it somewhere anonymously. So this contact database that you need to communicate the ballots back and forth is something you can set up however you want. That issue is not a core job of this program, because there are a million ways to do it (it is a UNIX philosophy conforming program).
Once you have this set up, you can send ballots back & forth to the voters all the time. The voters can then verify the result, and you the organizer should not even be capable of manipulating the result. This program requires UNIX command line skills, it does work and has tons of features, but you need some knowledgeable UNIX commandline nerds on it if you want it working quickly. Because nobody ever helps me with important things like such a program, it has for the last years not been developed further, although it is on the list to be the official GNU program for voting.
Your a genuis!! Next step what would be the list of resources we would need. Actually which method would we use? i like the push because it more private.
I like the push also. Since I haven't updated my program to new versions of GNU/Linux (was working on economics, Constitution stuff), you then need a computer with Debian/GNU/Linux on it. This program (law4.org/sede) uses common C (a computer language), and Zshell script. You are probably easiest off installing a computer with the appropriate Debian GNU/Linux version. Then it is a matter of copying the package, installing it, and starting to learn it. It has a lot of documentation, example polls and so on. The basics are not hard, lot of common sense there. Find a good Debian 'nerd' or a few ?
After that you of course need an Internet link. You probably have to give these ppl some days to learn the program. By then they probably know an appropriate method. One method is you just dump the ballots in a public directory structure, while the directory is not executable (can not be listed). You can generate directories with random letter strings, which then become passwords for access. As I said: there is a milion ways to do this.
It is a program that is modular and should be easy to expand further, i hope you give it a try it was a very hard work to make. We tested it with a political party in NL already (D66). But their bosses (corrupt as usual) denied it from being rolled out in that party, although the members had just voted for that ! This is a real scandal, but of course nobody was told by the media. Treason in Dutch politics, i'm not joking.
Oh, I've read more of the site now, but still not sure how voters are authenticated. This is all written as zsh scripts?
It is written both in Zshell script, and C. Voters are authenticated because of the way you choose to register them. The program has a file where you register voters and their contacting information. At this point only an e-mail solution has been worked out (using mutt, because sadly i found no neat command line program that could send an e-mail with an attachment). This is all modular so all you have to do is get to the send-script, and do it differently if you want, and save your changes as another command that is available (you might want to update the manual with that command, and publish it back to 'the people' if it is good conidder giving it to me to put on my site for everyone.) There is also variables available for this, that give you ${email-adress} ${ballot-file} and such, you can use that for your sending/encryption/whatever ideas.
How you want to authenticate voters is up to you. Once they get ballots they are authenticated upon receiving their ballot by having an existing voter-code. The voter-code space is large, the used voter-codes represent a tiny fraction of this code space. One way of 'authenticating voters' when you register them is: they are your classmates, you know them already. Another day the authentication might be something else like they live in a certain village. The next time all you have to do is get the e-mail adresses off of the company employee roll. Note that encryption is not always necessary, it is a problem that has to be weighed between the risk of attacks, the cost of wrong result, the likelyhood of a wrong result being detected (an altered ballot means that voter can see his vote wrong counted in the result, an attacked ballot does therefore not equal a wrong count, as it normally would), and how cumbersome it is for people to do this encryption thing.
The program should be further developed and used, but so far nobody is interested in real democracy, i think they are scared for it because they know it works.
I'm a Debian "nerd". I'm rather pleased to see discussion of Free software here. I wonder if software like reddit wouldn't be useful, since you have to authenticate to vote, and you can only vote once. The thing is, any such system will not be valid for voting on national legislation, because
such systems CAN be gamed, and
Not every voter has a computer/computer access.
Forgive me if these matters have been addressed. I confess, I skimmed through above comments.
Josh's model is interesting. I can only assume the "ballots" would be encrypted, like, say, bitcoins, or something, so that each ballot is unique, can't be copied, etc. You would need to ensure that one voter can only have one ballot on any given issue to be voted on, which is the hard part. Any such system is definitely going to require some form of authentication ensuring this.
Hello tony,
You do have to authenticate to vote, in fact you can't even get a ballot unless you have been identified and registered as a voter *). Of course you can only vote once, people who do try to vote multiple times have all their doubles also published, but of course not counted (on the 'double votes' list.
Can this system be gamed ? There are a few possibilities, for example you can try to add non-existing voters (which is the same as putting fake ballots in the ballot box), and you can try to buy/sell votes. However if you buy/sell votes then this is not a secret manipulation. Secondly in normal balloting you can also destroy votes, so that you fake ballots do not add to the total of votes. Example: if a school with 600 persons/voters has a retult of 400 vs 350 on a vote, then that stinks. These matters are all extensively debated in the documentation.
Please read about the program here: http://www.law4.org/sede. The ballots can be encrypted, you can register command-line encryption commands, which encrypt the ballot file, which then get send as an attachement.
About people without computers: that too is adressed, you can print the 'voter codes' in a way that it might be detectible by optical scanner machines; you can then print the ballots on paper after negotiating a paper ballot communication channel. It is a Unix program, and that means that it is not a monolithic 'we can do everything' in this program. Rather then do everything the program focusses on the task at hand: balloting, and getting rid of manipuations. The program generates an automatic website with links where the results are presented fairly nicely; you can even choose between themes for that website.
*) Although that too you can do differently, it is a flexible and modular program, with interoperability in mind.
Summary Permanent Voting Stations (All Year Round)
Groups of 50 Occupiers (vote for 1 representative/council) Responsibilities: Create skill set & availability profile
Council Responsibilities:
Resources Need -Server running Debian/GNU/Linux -Programmer (Debian 'nerd') -Designer -Internet access
I don't know if 'getting the skill set' will be important. This program isn't a 'server' program (a deamon), it doesn't listen to any ports. It is a user-space program, that runs like that 'telnet' program, or a shell. You start it you get a prompt, you can then run commands, but also shell commands; like a shell that is enhanced with the commands of this program. Don't need to set up a 'server,' and to be honest i don't know what that's about either :). Installing comps is one of the things i can't stand.
this would be nice
What do you think about the rest gt2seeit2?
rest of what?
the website idea?
I want you to win your goals. I just think you folks arent going for the throat fast enough is all...and that your going to get beat on the streets.
I think a voting system is your ticket to success.
There are a couple simple core items, that once in play, define the sandbox as a Direct Democracy....and ruins their entire game on all of us.
If you set those up, call it what they will, but it becomes a Direct Democracy in effect:
ability of anyone to propose an issue or solution...and gain popular support towards becoming law.
a clear and simple...quick...recall process...for those hired to get the job done.
If you have those two conditions, and a ready accessible voting system, it creates an entirely new situation....Direct Democracy
As it stands in contrast,
Direct Democracy is constantly engaged in introspection, and external (new), solutions...constantly testing the status quotient....because it has the mechanism to do it...(the voting system)
In native villages of NA, the Chiefs were not rulers, all they held was a voice to advise the people....GA is like that.
My only message, is simply, get people on an online voting system, any voting system..so long as it is full featured.
Elect servants of the people, not leaders. Any leader should be servant to all, is a Gnostic principle....spoken by many spirituals since.
Until that is done... people power/elected servants ... it is just a minor protest..if it tries to be more than that and go bigger they all get crushed or tear nations apart.....and until a voting system is in place..they are ruled by whoever won the fight.
Wall street (what is behind it) is not going to just give up..b/c some are...protesting.
the have spaceships, tunnels, tons and tons of materials and equip stockpiled......they have all of history telling them what to expect and how to handle it...
Realize what you are really up against....some very well stocked and fortified, very very ruthless people....sociopaths even.
YOu need a voting system to get everyone together and allow each a voice. Build, beg, borrow, steal...get one you must..
You can have the one on uponlocal, it took a year to build..so even if there is minor restructuring, it offers a considerable jump ahead. The Drupal community has all the software you need or could ever ask for...free.
Again, any voting system, full blown, will do the trick.
Each day passing puts us all at risk....peoples energy is being expended...immune systems will become compromised...and historically disease sets in....
and that would play exactly into the hands of anyone seeking some depopulation.....say uber rich European ecologists/banker types with royal bloodlines...
Big Picture.
[Deleted]
Goal: Government Transparency
Immediate consensus action can also be started.
Create sign and send petitions. The more inputs we have the better. http://occupywallst.org/forum/create-sign-and-send-petitions/
A site to submit issues have them collected, collated and submitted. www.lobbydemocracy.com
OUR BANNER/OUR CAUSE
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. July 4, 1776
we need a central site of organizes ideas minus the forum. just the final out put of possible solutions, a flowchart in real-time. the Goals, the possible solution for each goal. They ney and yay for each possible solition. The resources need for a solution, and a voluntary/resource donation area section.
your thoughts?
I think we can make a start at the link below. The thing is to get the word spread that this is a possible rallying site. We will only know how good it is by starting to use it and give our feedback ( suggestions, critiques ) to the site.
A site to submit issues have them collected, collated and submitted. www.lobbydemocracy.com
Use a process:
The web gives us a public forum for identifying and recommending solutions to problems. If OWS does nothing else, it can be the beginning of a national conversation on how to use government to solve problems.
First, build a list of problems and then build a list of solutions for each problem and then prioritize and build an action plan.
We need to document where we want to go, current problems, proposed solutions and then get agreement to implement the solutions.
We need support from all political factions that the ideas are acceptable to a majority of their members. We need consensus if we are to achieve our goals.
I'd like to throw in an idea that some of you networking-savvy types may be able to help me with.
It's pretty clear that the US/UK/Israel are preparing the ground for another unlawful strike against a foreign country ... Iran. This will be, of course, a resource-grab, dressed as some form of humanitarian project.
The result of all this humanitarianism will be more dead and maimed innocents.
NOW, what if we Westerners could Occupy Iran? What if there was an "ethical army" which transplanted itself to Iran and said, "Go ahead, bomb us?"
Our friends and parents would be faced with a dilemma. They are forced to pay taxation which goes to fund these illegal wars ... but now their taxation is being used to attack their own children.
At the very least, it would force a Nation-wide debate.
I believe that this could be a very powerful political tool ... if there are a few thousand of us with the balls and commitment to do it. (I'm assuming that the Iranians would offer us a welcome, of course.)
To far ahead the priority right now should be to organize quickly before winter really hits. The cold winter will be a form of dis-assembly, which is not good. important to have the foundation setup first.
Term limits is something the Tea Party advocates, therefore, likely to have mass appeal if both the TP and OWS agree. The only way to amend the constitution would be to convene state conventions (since legislators won't cut their own pursestrings) in 2/3's of the states and agree on the amendment, then it can be proposed. If 3/4 of the states approve (again probably via state convention), it is ratified. (Article V of the Constitution of the USA) The only way to create that much exposure is by TV. National level, big $$$. That's where Bruce Springsteen, Warren Buffet, Bono, Oprah and the rest figure in. Ralph Nader himself wrote Only the Superrich Can Save Us. here's their chance.
The way out is to amend the national constitution and set term limits for legislators. Accompanied by limits on campaign contributions similar to what AZ and Maine have instituted, we're home free-
Amending the constitution, that will take some real work.
RE: citizens united- this is the website: http://movetoamend.org/areas-focus/move-amend/amending-constitution
Occupy the foreclosures, implement adjunct possession. Remove corp. personhood and close other loopholes in finance law. Strengthen states rights or better yet dissolve the union.
That a little vague a statement..., but let me ask you this in return.... get a conversation going....
Which corporations would you remove how would you base this discussion?
Who would close the loopholes? Who responsibility woulds/should it be?
I am not in the business of destroying corporations. Though I would appreciate they stop destroying us that isn't my direct concern.
What about Goal 1? (No Corporation Influence in Government Process)
As much as I am angry at Corporations for the developments in the USA the last 30 years, I cant justify a scenario where there voice is completely silenced. They are a major part of our economy, and since we expect them to pay the highest possible tax rate (that's a fight for another forum) we should allow them to voice an opinion. After all there will certainly be legislation made in the future that will affect them, and by proxy the livelihood of the citizens working for the corporation.
What we need to do is set up our GOVERNMENT to be redundantly protected from the current and expanding influence of money. I would like to see a Constitutional Amendment that completely removes private money from a campaign, if all candidates are funded by a public fund, after fulfilling some requirements that ensure some sort of viability.
Do you have nay idea what this amendment woulds say? This was posted today as a possible solution (below), I'm going to look at it tomorrow, tell me what you think? or if you have another?
I want to get a list for each "idea" and choose the bests ones.
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/restore-democracy-ending-corporate-personhood
Ich habt nay idee
Was ist Ihre Idee?
Nicht habt
I know the Occupy movement is completely organic and those participating are passionate about a variety of issues. What you all have done so far is impressive and daring and hopefully will bring the income and wealth inequities in our nation to the attention of busy and often uninformed Americans. A couple of things that I feel would be helpful to the cause. First, I am in advertising and have spent a lot of my career developing ad campaigns, slogans etc. for small local businesses. While I get the Occupy name, my concern is that this can have a negative conatation with some people. I love "The 99%" concept and feel that this is something people can get behind, because we're all 99'ers. The marketing of this provides all sorts of great ideas that we can expand upon later. Next, I have studied the income disparities for years and written about the shameful rise in poverty here and abroad, while the wealth of the richest expands daily. The push for Congress to pass a law to negate Citizen's United should be a primary focus. The other needs to be pushing to have a national referendum on the 2012 ballot to publicly fund campaigns. Since it is voluntary on the part of candidates it is perfectly legal (see Public Campaign website) and candidates in many states can now spend their time working for the people instead of begging for donations. The Occupy movement is amazing, I just think with some planning and forethought it can be a driving force the likes of which the Tea Party can only dream about.
I know the Occupy movement is completely organic and those participating are passionate about a variety of issues. What you all have done so far is impressive and daring and hopefully will bring the income and wealth inequities in our nation to the attention of busy and often uninformed Americans. A couple of things that I feel would be helpful to the cause. First, I am in advertising and have spent a lot of my career developing ad campaigns, slogans etc. for small local businesses. While I get the Occupy name, my concern is that this can have a negative conatation with some people. I love "The 99%" concept and feel that this is something people can get behind, because we're all 99'ers. The marketing of this provides all sorts of great ideas that we can expand upon later. Next, I have studied the income disparities for years and written about the shameful rise in poverty here and abroad, while the wealth of the richest expands daily. The push for Congress to pass a law to negate Citizen's United should be a primary focus. The other needs to be pushing to have a national referendum on the 2012 ballot to publicly fund campaigns. Since it is voluntary on the part of candidates it is perfectly legal (see Public Campaign website) and candidates in many states can now spend their time working for the people instead of begging for donations. The Occupy movement is amazing, I just think with some planning and forethought it can be a driving force the likes of which the Tea Party can only dream about.
I know the Occupy movement is completely organic and those participating are passionate about a variety of issues. What you all have done so far is impressive and daring and hopefully will bring the income and wealth inequities in our nation to the attention of busy and often uninformed Americans. A couple of things that I feel would be helpful to the cause. First, I am in advertising and have spent a lot of my career developing ad campaigns, slogans etc. for small local businesses. While I get the Occupy name, my concern is that this can have a negative conatation with some people. I love "The 99%" concept and feel that this is something people can get behind, because we're all 99'ers. The marketing of this provides all sorts of great ideas that we can expand upon later. Next, I have studied the income disparities for years and written about the shameful rise in poverty here and abroad, while the wealth of the richest expands daily. The push for Congress to pass a law to negate Citizen's United should be a primary focus. The other needs to be pushing to have a national referendum on the 2012 ballot to publicly fund campaigns. Since it is voluntary on the part of candidates it is perfectly legal (see Public Campaign website) and candidates in many states can now spend their time working for the people instead of begging for donations. The Occupy movement is amazing, I just think with some planning and forethought it can be a driving force the likes of which the Tea Party can only dream about.
I know the Occupy movement is completely organic and those participating are passionate about a variety of issues. What you all have done so far is impressive and daring and hopefully will bring the income and wealth inequities in our nation to the attention of busy and often uninformed Americans. A couple of things that I feel would be helpful to the cause. First, I am in advertising and have spent a lot of my career developing ad campaigns, slogans etc. for small local businesses. While I get the Occupy name, my concern is that this can have a negative conatation with some people. I love "The 99%" concept and feel that this is something people can get behind, because we're all 99'ers. The marketing of this provides all sorts of great ideas that we can expand upon later. Next, I have studied the income disparities for years and written about the shameful rise in poverty here and abroad, while the wealth of the richest expands daily. The push for Congress to pass a law to negate Citizen's United should be a primary focus. The other needs to be pushing to have a national referendum on the 2012 ballot to publicly fund campaigns. Since it is voluntary on the part of candidates it is perfectly legal (see Public Campaign website) and candidates in many states can now spend their time working for the people instead of begging for donations. The Occupy movement is amazing, I just think with some planning and forethought it can be a driving force the likes of which the Tea Party can only dream about.
99% it is, I couldn't agree with you more, I really like the "publicly fund campaigns" but how would it work? how much would be given? Has it been though out already by someone?
www.getmoneyout.com
Its a constitutional amendment to get money out of politics
Could you tell us a little about your post?
There are a few of us so far. What are 3 things you would do if you were in charge of the Movement?
The 3 things I would do....
1) Propose #2 and #3 , if approved
2) SECURE/ PRIVATE WEB SITE (Like this one) I'd have Permanent online voting polls. Votes that are up for election must be give 2 weeks public notice in an official spot. The purpose is to let people now whats up for a vote.
You have 2 weeks to make your vote.
Your profile (if filled out) would list you skills and hobbies. [For Teaching, It's important to spent an hour learning while protesting to prove disprove the "there lazy" theories out there. Yo could lean anything, there would be a database of skills, which could be ebay style barter system]
Also knowing the total resources in an organized fashion is exponential especially with "crowd sourcing". all these people out of work, lawyers, software, engineers, labor, construction, teachers, etc...
3) Finalize the number of "Goals" and separately what are they very "specifically" EX: Overturn "Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad"
You would turn it into a society of it's own. But then what?
It would be up to the society and what they voted on... that's a free society
I appologize, that wasn't specific enough.
We now have the 1% and the 99% and the "New Society". Though we would be apart of the rest of the country, we would be loyal to "Our" society first and foremost....
What then?
There is nothing to be loyal too, just vote for what you care about the way you want too. Be loyal to yourself. I wasn't thinking of it as a new society, more as an organized movement, where we use 21 century tools to organize. Were know our total skills. This way we can have a realistic understanding of our cumulative reach as one.
Wow- I am sorry but I thought that the point of getting an education was to be able to go out and support yourself and earn income. In our country all people are afforded the right to same opportunity for an education which often time leads to, gasp dare I say it, A JOB!!! A job, what a wonderful thing because it can lead to a career and if you are smart with your money you learn to save and not live outside your means. These OCCUPY people amaze me, you have time to sit on the streets and point your fingers and say greed is the reason you are without food, clothing, or opportunity but you don't have time to look for a job? I think I saw some Occupy protestors playing with their Ipads and IPhones, Hmmmm???
Wow- I am sorry but I thought that the point of getting an education was to be able to go out and support yourself and earn income. In our country all people are afforded the right to same opportunity for an education which often time leads to, gasp dare I say it, A JOB!!! A job, what a wonderful thing because it can lead to a career and if you are smart with your money you learn to save and not live outside your means. These OCCUPY people amaze me, you have time to sit on the streets and point your fingers and say greed is the reason you are without food, clothing, or opportunity but you don't have time to look for a job? I think I saw some Occupy protestors playing with their Ipads and IPhones, Hmmmm???
vh413! are you well? You don't know if OWS pioneers are looking for a job while making a sacrifice to make America a better place. Further, what job is it that you speak of? If you were unemployed, you'd have a better chance to win a lotto than to find a right job. Last published figure showed 8 jobs for every 30,000 persons.
Eliminate Corporate taxes
We should establish community market, community services centres, community alert centres (finance watch, corporations watch), check if any goods or services we can easily produce at a local level, discuss with community banks ways to finance these operations and to transfer jobs & profits from multinationals to local communities. We should learn to become a smart consumer, to avoid financing multinationals' exploitation of local & overseas workers.
I agree i think you should look at "Permanent Voting Stations (All Year Round)" below also see the summary
See my post: http://occupywallst.org/forum/old-idea-the-great-beltway-park-in/
I think this should be done for Fox news. Also sonofzerofive, could you next time post a little about the link for on viewers.
Basically for anyone reading this the link sonofzfive posted is about "paralyzing all vehicle traffic heading into the city." as a from of protest,
Check this out: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15567206
Embarrassing religious leaders into supporting the movement's aims is a good way of bringing mainstream public opinion onside. Already in the UK there is a groundswell of popular support from unexpected (socially conservative) quarters. This has happened accidentally just because St. Paul's became involved by default when Stock Exchange protesters were moved on.
It's time to learn a lesson from this and to address religious leaders publicly and directly to persuade them to support the movement's aims.
Some call the movement chaotic; but recent physics tells us that there is actually order to chaos; we just don't have the ability to see it. Most, if not all, our knowledge is based on discovering the order in the universe ... an order that we had nothing to do with creating. I therefore believe that harmony and order are natural, and disharmony and disorder are not. But whatever way the Movement chooses to create an orderly process, it does not have to look like the Old Order. The hand signals the Movement uses to build consensus demonstrate an orderly approach not familiar to the Old Order at all. I love that, by the way. The only way we are going to change anything is to continue to keep the energy positive and the forum open.
This is a bit farfetched, but then so is everything anymore. There are quite a few towns abandoned and for sale throughout the country. Perhaps the Movement could purchase one of them, and set it up to run in ways that incorporate one core principle of working together in harmony.
Sure. Occupy the media. All media.
They are mad because they can't just focus on Kim Kardasian's wedding and Linday Lohan, poor dears.
Occupy Fox!!!
great move with bank of america,they withdrew their debit card fee afraid this movement would cripple them.we have the power, many people will follow a well thought out target for boycott.pick a bank or corp.that has shown they care more about their bottom line and bonus money then fair and honest dealings with the american people and call for a nation wide boycott,this will work.once you have a measure of the people who are behind you the direction can change to the next election.if you start a vote out every incumbent plea until solid no loophole laws are in place to keep special interest money from paying for elections and those elected doing their biding those in office will only have one term and gone.they wont pass anything on their own when the money that got them elected is controlling their votes.it is a fast peaceful way to show our anger at what this system has become.
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Do you think everyone taking out there money for a day is a good or bay idea? and why?
Americans are afraid of freedom and make a mistake thinking it scientific, financial or material. Where are the new leaders that are defining the plan for once this movement takes over? Why is there so much "anarchy" in the dialogue, and what will be done with the millions of variations on governance coming from all these free people. What happened to the original plan to infiltrate and change from within, as all other social movements have had to adapt to in order to have a lasting affect? Depose those leading, certainly I agree, replace them with who though, as in all commercial interests legal or otherwise, remove the head and seven more grow to replace it.
I read the "strategies and expectations," and see nothing that would work as a replacement for our existing systems, just complaints and rhetoric, and I'm very open and liberal minded. When I sat with Occupy Seattle, there was only constant noisemaking, anarchist pamphlets, and absolutely no leadership. Are we all supposed to accept that our selfish and warlike ways will all be resolved with the removal of the existing systems? Really??? And who will police us when everyone goes to working "freely" and goods are no longer predictably on shelves and services are not provided according to schedule? Are we really to believe we will all just chill and relax?? Please people!!! All organisms must adapt and through the proven tools of evolution, change from within. Watching anarchists get arrested is only proving that the generation of the 80's raised a generation wholely focused on comfort of self as a measure of success in life instead of strength of character, perserverence, and determination to succeed in spite of all odds.
Stop laziness, now there's a cause!!! That's the only way this uneducated high school dropout was able to start my own company and succeed as a national consultant afer a successful career rubbing elbows with those Wall Street dogs! You want to win? Change yourself and move above this stupidly materialistic point of view, as IT is the real trap!!
Law will not do what people aren't compelled to do of themselves.
Americans are afraid of freedom and make a mistake thinking it scientific, financial or material. Where are the new leaders that are defining the plan for once this movement takes over? Why is there so much "anarchy" in the dialogue, and what will be done with the millions of variations on governance coming from all these free people. What happened to the original plan to infiltrate and change from within, as all other social movements have had to adapt to in order to have a lasting affect? Depose those leading, certainly I agree, replace them with who though, as in all commercial interests legal or otherwise, remove the head and seven more grow to replace it.
I read the "strategies and expectations," and see nothing that would work as a replacement for our existing systems, just complaints and rhetoric, and I'm very open and liberal minded. When I sat with Occupy Seattle, there was only constant noisemaking, anarchist pamphlets, and absolutely no leadership. Are we all supposed to accept that our selfish and warlike ways will all be resolved with the removal of the existing systems? Really??? And who will police us when everyone goes to working "freely" and goods are no longer predictably on shelves and services are not provided according to schedule? Are we really to believe we will all just chill and relax?? Please people!!! All organisms must adapt and through the proven tools of evolution, change from within. Watching anarchists get arrested is only proving that the generation of the 80's raised a generation wholely focused on comfort of self as a measure of success in life instead of strength of character, perserverence, and determination to succeed in spite of all odds.
Stop laziness, now there's a cause!!! That's the only way this uneducated high school dropout was able to start my own company and succeed as a national consultant afer a successful career rubbing elbows with those Wall Street dogs! You want to win? Change yourself and move above this stupidly materialistic point of view, as IT is the real trap!!
Law will not do what people aren't compelled to do of themselves.
Spread out & dig in. Now these protests are on provocative spaces like public squares. Like it or not but that is not anyone its private home. Police know that, it makes them see red. But I know you don't want to move. However you could put another foot on the ground in a farmer field somewhere, could even be quite far away. There you could entrench yourselves better, and rotate out sometimes, for some comfy times so that you don't get sick. If they happen to destroy the square-camp, they may not be willing/daring to boot you off of a farmer field because they have no right to do that at all. Then you remain with one foot on the ground, and can take it from there. If there are 100 or 200 persons on a square does not matter as much, because it is mostly the principle isn't it. How many ppl actually see these camps ? Hence i think it may be a worthwhile strategic decision that does not cost too much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A8h02W0GZQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player Call in suspicious activities of police officers... They could be terrorists
Let stay on point and solve solutions... Law 2.0 next step would be to use a real world example, find an actual loop hole, which is commonly used and create an explanation to bring forward... any ideas or where we might find an answer?
Things to Take into Account
100% tax on income above certain level of wealth. We can start with $100,000,000 limit.
Take up ONE issue. One that would have to get widesperad support. Like Anti-cronyism law. Find a congressman or president that would be willing to say "we think that corporate involvement in our govt is great" especially with the public sentiment of today. Take it to congress. Buy the movement time and show the public that you are more than serious. A lot of supporters are quiet atm, because we are waiting to see what will be DONE. As soon as you present something to congress support will come in droves....but you are running out of time.
why do you feel we are running out of time?
Because, you are being slowly co-opted, because winter is coming, because the public that wants to support this won't be able to wait forever, and if you wait too long, you are going to look foolish and collapse. Just a fact...
"Occupy" Schools (Step 2-3)
The argument we hear often is "get a job!", "get an education", "learn a new skill". Maybe they have a point....
What i suggest is groups of 5-10 with one voluntary teacher. Lean anything; fix a car, programming, cooking, JUST LEARN!!! WHY? This proves occupiers are capable, and removes this argument from the table.
I know programming, and it hasn't got me a job. Thankfully, I have other work, but the point I'm making is, having skills or an education, today, is no guarantor of employment or financial success. There are 1000s of unemployed people with degrees, and even experience in their field. For every new job that opens, there are 4 unemployed people. This means, clearly, there are more unemployed people than jobs. One need only look at http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/ to see how many highly educated people, people with skills, people who worked their whole lives and got dumped in the "recession" (that brought record corporate profites) to see this.
would you like to work on a project? looking for tek voluntaries. Look at "Summary Permanent Voting Stations (All Year Round)" below... let me your opinion.
Barter System - "Occupy" - Step 2
See (Total Resources of "Occupy"? An Organized Work Pool)
Once a database of skills set and availability are acquired a barter system can be put in place. Example: Bob does 20 hours of Skill X for some plumbing done.
The beginning. The opportunity to place down all that has angered you and placed you into your current situation.
We look at individual problems, continental problems and keep global consideration in mind for others around the world.
We take the problems, mesh them onto one ( long ) page and discuss them together with eachother. Allowing everyone adequate time to read them, understand them, form an opinion so they can all contribute better and proper solutions for all to consider having in place.
What needs to be fixed. What they feel brought us to this point. Where they see the problems currently exist.
Provide adequate and reasonable suggestions that can become solutions by all people of this continent ( America ) and around the world.
Greed is a problem.
Figuring out better mehods in curbing it are neccessary.
This, merely a start for me. I have plenty.
You really should start replacing the word "greed" with "corruption"
the post the specific idea... the the real purpose of this fourm, i wanted to keep the emotions out of it, although well deserved, but focus on the idea and resources need to accomplish them.
Sharing knowledge and getting agreement is how we can change the system.
The web site needs to be expanded to capture good ideas and organize them.
I think a problems/solutions approach to organizing material would be helpful.
Please see The Common View at http://TheCommonView.com for some ideas.
Doesn't look professional enough... Sorry nothing personal
Please explain.
Does this site take into account peoples skill sets?
Please explain.
Its missing some design work. the site need to look a little more polish. I in web and i know if it doesn't look clean, people don't stay, sorry.
The idea was to use the organization: Goals, Problems, Decision criteria, the Path forward and the other main information groupings.
A list of problems to get agreement on and prioritize.
I am suggesting that such a structure be added to this site with a blog from each page for discussion and then a voting system to judge agreement with the contents.
A list of solutions for each problem and get agreement.
It is the words on the site that are important, not the design or visual appeal.
Self-organization, which is so effective that it can just forever keep adding people, until the whole nation is in it ! It's a revolution. Works by having ppl group with 50, they elect a delegate, but it is under control by immediate power to choose another. With 50 these delegates form a very local council. But they can form very large councils too, but such a council is divided into 50 groups of delegates who each again put one delegate out in the same way [law4.org]
How about this group them in 50 including 1 council , Where the following information is acquired: Skills, Availability, ...anything else?
Are you approaching this from a protest-perspective like a political party or 'movement' then you are probaly smart to do that, know who can do what i guess. However it is for those councils and 'voter-groups' (etc) to decide what they want :). Below I replied that was more for a true national democracy (law & the public interest, not economic production). [law4.org/gov.html has some schematics, sorry if it's not clear but it is a precise model]. Each council is also divided into sub-councils of 10 persons, who debate among themselves and negotiate with other subcouncils. When a subject is so outdebated it goes to the whole group of 50. If that group is a voter-group, it then is pushed to the 'council' with the delegates, etc.
Also there should be a list of Skills among the people. Having a list of resources WILL be very helpful. also availability.
This model of organization would in my view be a Government, dealing with law and the public interest. The people organize themselves in companies and free markets, these councils would not be totalitarian or involved with the brunt of economic activity. However if you prefer to do that then ofcourse you could do that.
I think it a great idea, but i think its time to move to the next step. it time to use the power of crowd sourcing. The crowd is there, but we don't know how many developers, labor, construction, lawyers, students they are.
The first part of creating a plan is to know what your resources are. Step 1...at least in my opinion.
I believe that it is for these developers, lawyers, students and construction workers to form their groups and councils, debate between themselves, and if they then reach conclusions and objectives that require work then they can let the call for volunteers or indeed payed labor go out. Those willing will then step forward ?
bang on the head there buddy.. I am developing a web platform for exactly such a thing. However I am more concerned with 'western/consumerist culture.
you have to understand that we are at odds with a consumerist machine that employees Hollywood, music, fashion and much of the entertainment industry. This in turn has created whole generation with a feckless attitude. Few kids today want to lift a finger for the common good. Countering this, therefore requires strategic media portrayal and so on. In other words we need to kick society into action rather than politely asking them.
Can you give me more details please?
True, but you need to know for example how many developers you have. there experience. a project managers. etc... you want to be able to look at a list and organize quick. Which is the main problem here...
Okay, personally I am more interested in setting up a careful system of voter-groups, councils, sub-councils and so on, which is stable and becomes experienced, careful. That would be something for the long term, and earn the trust of the people. Maybe when it becomes such a nice thing, it can then draw in more people and grow and then grow even rapidly, even into a rapid complete revolution (meaning its central council will actually replace Congress, and be the Sovereign, make the coin, rule the army, ...). So it's a serious objective, and you'd want to be so careful when you end up with the Sovereign power, because what that council says will be done (most of the time).
By quickly getting people on to-do lists, you are kind of risking that they are not first making their own democracy, which is the most important thing they can ever do anyway ? First things first ? just my thinking, entrench, honor, spread, revolution, Sovereignty, responsibility.
I don't want to put people on a to-do list quickly, BUT i do think its necessary to have a list available. My thinking was just to have a database of skills. That's it for now. Until then no one knows what there working with, see my point....
In this model you could propose that to your voter group and/or delegate, and/or suggest it to people in a council. They can debate it, and will probably agree with you, because why not ? In a political party/protest/thing, i gather there is lots of things to do ? : )
We should talk to TheIRISHareComing too Here is what i can offer.... C++, PHP, Javascript, SQL, Flash
N01, this system has nothing to do with programming or computers. This is a formal group-formation model, so that people are not reduced to being the public that they already where, only able to shout from the sidelines. Therefore they group in groups of 50, which divide into groups of 10 internally, which from the 'grassroots' send in spokespersons to each other to form groups of 50 again, which also divide internally in groups of 10. That is the basic layer, above that these spokespersons regroup to any size and elect 2nd tier spokespersons. That system covers everything, there is never an election unto a 3rd tier, everything is done on the 2nd tier and 1st tier only, to prevent the 'power' to walk away from the grassroots level. Voter -> spokesperson -> 2nd tier spokesperson, that is all there is to it. You talk to your very own spokesperson whom you elected with 50 persons, and that one is directly the one who had a role in electing even your national council, the very top body in that nation. There is no world-nation here, a nation is about 20 million big. Not a gimmick system here, it's meant to actually be done and rule, to actually work and be a more stable and less corrupt Government system then we have now. It will of course not be perfect, but hopefully a useful improvement.
The voting-software is a different subject, more related to the subject of mass referendums. The referendum is a system as I would like it (and have worked it out law4.org/law) is more powerful then these delegates above mentioned (see law 3.1.b on how I would think it is best done). For such a referendum you could of course try to use electronic voting programs such as the one I have made. But that is a different system then these voter-groups, delegate-groups and councils.
The choice is now to humanity: do you finally want to start behaving like human beings and take control like adults of your surroundings, talk to other people constructively, or does it all have to end in a mass of gossiping and backstabbing ruled by corrupt politicians waging wars and trying to enslave mankind forever more. I don't know what humanity will choose yet, perhaps she will reconsider in the coming decades when all the corruption and greed and so on starts to tear this 'society' apart - because the way it is going is not going to last is it. Tick tock ...
Hi N01,
I can't seem to reply to your below message "the problem i see ...". It isn't the software that makes peoples council government possible, unless you mean we are discussing it using software. It is all achievable using direct relations between people, i see no role for software there, on the contrary using software would be cumbersome.
The 2nd tier does not represent 1% of the population: People group per 50 electing 1 delegate, this yields around 1% of the population: that is the 1st tier. This is a massive amount of delegates, compare to what we have now where for example in our 170 000 person city we have about 40 persons thinking they represent it (maybe they do, but it is tiny). ... [ [ [ continued ] ] ] ...
... read the rest of this entry here: http://blogger.xs4all.nl/joshb/archive/2011/11/04/696307.aspx [it was too long for this comment space.]
http://zelea.com/project/votorola/home.xht
check this out....
the problem i see with the grouping system is the 2nd tier represents 1% of the population (ironic), if you have 10,000 people trying to get 100 people to have a discussion would be difficult... but maybe be better in the long run. I'd say more opinions are need here.
I do see how the voting software id a seperate issue but at the same time its the software that makes it possible.
I do agree with you that a "formal group-formation model" need to be finialized. Which bring be full circle.
Can 100 people representing 10K 'talk' ?
Occupy Fox News November 5th?
Is it happening?
Good Idea or Not? Too soon to be organized?
Total Resources of "Occupy"? An Organized Work Pool
Create a database of total skills and availability?
Basically having some kind of sign up station where people can post there skill sets? If we knew the total skill set, this knowledge would be a real game changer.
Put up candidates on a Direct Democracy voting system,
or are we planning to storm the Whitehouse and wait 6 months while the unelected run the place
Direct Democracy is live now, and ready for America at
www.uponlocal.com
UPonLocal
Hello, I have written a voting-system for GNU/Linux, which is a serious program (25k lines of code, C, Zsh; tested succesfully, published about in Germany): law4.org/sede (free) ty for your interest, if any.
How does it work?
You first generate a database of contacts, which are your "voters" (if you did it right). This process falls outside of this program. Example 'ask ppl to fill out a form with an e-mail address on it, suggest they use an anonymous address if they prefer anonymity.' Pass them a password or two, so that there is a way to verify someone trying to contact you over another communication channel (like a letter). Say that server dies, the affected voter has a chance to send a new e-mail address. Common sense ?
You then write a 'master ballot.' From that you generate (running appropriate commands in this program) the ballot for each contact address. On each 'voting opportunity' in the ballot, which is an area of normal text like all others, but it matches configurable strings (you understand ?), is then generated a 'voter code.' The ballot is then send to the recipient (it can also be encrypted, configurable per voter, you then have to send it as an attachment), running the appropriate command for that.
The voter then opens the ballot, reads it (all clear text), fills out his free vote and comment in the obvious places (dotted lines for example). Sends it back. When you get it back you run the appropriate command that generates the result. The result contains of course a tally of votes, but also every vote with their vote-code and comment, but of course detached from any e-mail address source (although that was already anonymous if wanted.)
The voters can then see their own vote, and verify if it was correctly received. They can also see all other votes, and read those comments, and ask other people if they see their vote correctly tallied. This system is secure in results, but if you do it like this people can prove what they have voted. To prevent that you then not publish it all back but only the tallies, however you pay with that because the people can then not verify the result. This is a trade-off which seems to be inherent in it, it is not a bug but it is a choice you can make either way.
There should also have a profile with skill sets, and availability... I love it. I think it great!
what resources would we need, Unix, a server, how many programmers? how much time?
You really focussed on the skill sets eh :) What you need: yes you need a server which is merely a computer of course, just another home PC is fine. You may not need programmers, but competent 'users' for the command-line interface on Unix. If you can get some programmers then that of course is great (C programmer, or Unix script programming but that isn't really a language though it kindof is also). How much time ... hard to say. If you go really bare bones no encription, put a brain on there with experience, and if we're all lucky the libs and stuff match with each other so the installation is smooth ... you could probably be doing votes back and forth between a small test-club of 10-20 people within 4 hours (assuming you need to install a new Unix operating system), and you could probably start doing votes with a few hundred people in a few days ? Obviously if you run votes with many people it costs more time to process the vote, this can get quite extensive. You can process votes in parallell though, one vote on this computer, the other on the next. I'd say leave such a problem for later, first try to get a simple test-vote going between 10 ppl see what it is and if u like it.
LOL i am really stuck on the skill set, i honestly believe this will be a game changer at some point. The next point would be finding some voluntaries. I actually do code but I'm a web page/ c++ desktop guy. i don't deal with servers except for the setting up a site, so that's one. lets continue this conversation in the "Summary Permanent Voting Stations (All Year Round)"
Okay, dig this: simple form to collect skills data: http://baldwinsoftware.com/skilzdb/ Includes a form to add a "skills profile", a search (uses grep), and a page to view the whole "db". All the code is there in a zip, and all GPL v.3. I did absolutely no page design, whatever. All very basic. It should run on any LAMP server with php and grep.
Just, I now have to hate you guys, because I really, really was going to do some work (I work from home), and now, instead, I'm thinking of starting to hack something up in php here, because I can't resist hacking stuff up, and it's all your fault by presenting an interesting problem to solve. Darn it.
You mean "volunteers". I can help but think something that will be simpler for users to use, like simple web polls for the voting, especially, wouldn't be easier and more useful in the long run. Not because what Josh built isn't cool (because it is), but because most people aren't going to get it. As far as getting a db of skills, a simple webform to collect data to store to a db and a simple search interface to access said db would work, or, even, a form to store information to a plain text file, and an interface to grep said file (a php page would be my choice), without having to use mysql or something, could be done. Like, have a form collect a name and relevant contact info, or whatever, and a list of skills, then append that to a text file, then grep said file for a skill, a location, etc. and get a list of people in that location or with that skill. For that matter, the data could be appended to the very page, and that page search with the Ctrl-F/find feature in a browser. Look at this page: http://tonybaldwin.homelinux.net/more/miniforum.php It's a simple php form, which could be modified to collect specific data easily enough. It appends collected data to a text file, then reads that file into the same page on load. (It's on a debian server in my office). Really, I think appending to a text file, but searching that file with grep to find specific info would be better than appending the file to the same page and searching it, since you could collect all entries with a specific term with grep, then spit those out to a page. You'd have the form collect a name (can be pseudoname or whatever), some form of contact or location data to contact the person, and a list of skills. The form would write that data to one line of a text file. Then, when you grep the file for a certain skill, it will find ALL lines with that skill. Obviously, there aer more complex means of collecting data, building profiles, and searching them, and there are evern various CMS that can do that, but this is one simple solution.
Are you ""volunteering" ?
Sorry, I haven't been here in about a week. I DID hack something up that I thought was going to be useful, according to comments here: http://baldwinsoftware.com/skilzdb/
it is online, running, check it out
that judge in Nashville got nominated for Supeme Court Judge.....we dont vote for Supreme Court Judges ...they are appointed...but in a Direct Democracy, anything can be suggested.
There is no mob rule, the elected have veto powers, etc
check it out
The structure can be re arranged...suggest it as an issue
http://uponlocal.com/up-on-local-media/node/add/issue
Aren't the elected the mob ?
very cool, sounds promising, i'll check it out....
Anti-Bank
Withdraw all funds from Bank Accounts. Replacing currency by purchasing mineral/metal for example.
Anti-Bank Possible Solutions
http://www.getmoneyout.com/ whats more popular?
done that already, trade aluminum on recycler market, barter for goods and services were i can, hell, ive traded goods to lawyers, people that own co. ect. DONT TALK ABOUT IT...DO IT
Everyone takes out $$$ from there bank account on a specific day? No Deposits. What would be the effect of that? Could that be a statement?
Also do you think everyone taking out there money for a day is a good or bay idea? and why?
Mini/Mobile Occupy
Have smaller division of "occupies" that would protest in front of Example: Fox News, City Hall, Bank, etc....
LAW 2.0
There the idea of Law 2.0. Where the "spirit of the law" is actually part of the law. Explanation: Each new law 2.0 would have 2 parts. 1) The actual law 2) The purpose of that law This way a law can not be used for any other purpose. closing or at least reducing the concepts of loop holes. A person could not "use" a law if the purpose did not match the intention.
I like this a lot.
This is already the way law works in the Netherlands, afaik. We know America as a nation that is focussed on wording and loopholes, but that sort of thing won't fly here. This law 2.0 should be a good idea, a more honest interpretation of the law ?
Power to the people. If the the Occupiers like it it can fly!! The goal here should be to bring this idea if it hasn't reached them, to the masses, but first i think we need to create a well worded explanation... baby steps
You can fix this with another law: "The judge will interpret the law according to the intent of the lawmaker with the law." A concept, perhaps of 'natural/common' law with us in the Netherlands is that we use 'redelijkheid en billikheid' quite a bit, which translates as 'being reasonable and fair.' This is part of our tradition maybe, i'm not sure. But if you have a contract to sell one lollypop for 30.000,- dollar, then the judge will destroy the contract because it is insane. Such a contract may be valid in the USA because of a signature. Maybe this is not precisely the topic but it may be related: is it fair/reasonable to interpret a law way outside of what the law-maker intended. ?? just trying to help
I do feel this jump ahead a little. I think the next step would be to use a real world example, find an actual loop hole, which is commonly used and create an explanation to bring forward.
OWS is well on its way! Some of the younger folk in the protests know something is wrong, but they don't know exactly what, like alot of us awakened people do. What I don't understand is, why are none of the names of the criminal elites on all the signs that the protesters are carrying? The thing that the elite cabal fear MORE THAN ANYTHING, is the knowledge that we know who they are personally...and total exposure is the only thing that will stop them! "End the Fed" is a great start, but it is still too benevolent. We should be carrying signs that show loudly and clearly that we know exactly who they are! That way they can't hide behind the faceless blanket term "GLOBALISTS", 'BANKERS', "ELITE", "FEDERAL RESERVE", "1%" or "NWO".
Most people think the Federal Reserve is a government entity. It is not. It is privately owned by the world's wealthiest families and royal families who have violently protected their identiites from being connected to the federal reserve. They are responsible for a countless loss of life to try to keep this secret for many, many, many generations. The internet has been their worst enemy and hopefully will release their strangle hold on us.
The signs should read things like "ROTHSCHILDS END YOUR RULE", "ROTHSCHILDS SHOULD BE IN JAIL", "ROCKEFELLERS ARE GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINALS", "KISSINGER WANTS 90% DEPOPULATION", "QUEEN ELIZABETH & PRINCE CHARLES ARE DEPOPULATIONISTS", "KRUPPS ARE KILLERS", "ASTORS ARE BANKER THEIVES", "BUSH FAMILY ARE GENOCIDE PLOTTERS", "BUFFET ENGINEERED ECONOMIC CRASH", "GREENSPAN ENGINEERED ECONOMIC MELTDOWN", "GLOBALISTS DEPOPULATE YOURSELVES - END YOUR RULE", "MEROVINGIANS ARE THEIVES", "WALDORFS ARE KILLERS", "FREEMANS ARE CRIMINALS", "CARNEGIES ARE CRIMINALS", "SCHIFFS ARE BANKER CRIMINALS", "MONARCH FINANCIAL RULE ENDS NOW", etc.
Unless we expose the ROOT CAUSE, the invisible ruling elite will still be there to do these things to us again another day. The important but lesser problems will get fixed properly once the ruling elite are gone and honest people are elected. Always aim to take down the very top peak of the pyramid....or nothing will ever change. EXPOSE THEM!! If the whole world knows who they are, they can't hide. Each country that is protesting, needs to look up their countries ruling elite names, illuminati names, NWO names and get them on as many signs as possible and show the whole world who they are! If we focus on this one idea, they won't be in power for much longer. Spread the word!! Don't do this by yourself! This has to be done en masse....if only a few do this, they'll be escorted away. But if tens of thousands do it at the same time, what are they going to do? They can't get all of us. Strength in numbers!
There are many more North American criminal ruling elite families that need to be exposed;
CLINTONS, WARBURGS, LEHMANS, MORGANS, SOROS, RUSSELS, COLLINS, RUMSFELDS, CHENEYS, GATES, KOCH BROTHERS, KUHN LOEBS, LAZARDS, VANDERBILTS, DUPONTS, MCDONALDS, DESMARAIS, WINDSORS, CAPETIANS, BORJAS, VATICAN BANK, LI'S, SAUDI ROYALS, MONSANTOS, and others....
EXPOSE THESE CRIMINAL RULERS!!!! They need to see their own names on tv.
History of The Federal Reserve ~ Enlightening!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7757684583209015812
Your fellow human being
Leynna
In short, Change the signs?
Ya, that's about right!
YES, article 5 convention NOW! This is the only possible way to deal with the many very serious problems that have developed without a constitutional government. It's been 140 years. Here is the bottom line of the legal, national history and the constitution. It started with the presidentual directives, emergency orders in the civil war.-------
http://algoxy.com/poly/emergency_powers_statutes.html
About time this question was put out front. Good timing. One basic priority seems obvious. Authority to see demands met seems the prime concern. Without it, all proposals, demands, rights, needs etc. are quite possibly, logically unfulfilled.-----
I've seen no strategy to gain that authority, so wonder if the question of "What should be done?" includes the concept of gaining authority, and can become an unconditional priority?
blah blah blah. When are we gonna get some new hot chicks to join the movement?