Forum Post: I was wondering what the hell people were joking about. It is not a joke. If you think it is you are sick.
Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 28, 2012, 8:10 p.m. EST by DKAtoday
(33802)
from Coon Rapids, MN
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Work conditions fostering suicide. What some people will joke about. Take action show your outrage. This behavior is not to be accepted. Unite in common good and common cause. Take part in voicing your humanity.
In addressing towards the inclusion of all out-source customers of Foxconn. Please welcome this additional information from : 5 points by Polemarchus (0) 10 minutes ago
Strangely, the OP focuses on only one of Foxconn's clients. Is this due to ignorance, or a cheap attack on Apple? Here is a list of all of Foxconn's clients: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn
Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)
Apple Inc. (United States)
ASRock (Taiwan)
Asus (Taiwan)
Barnes & Noble (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Dell (United States)
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)
Intel (United States)
IBM (United States)
Lenovo (China)
Logitech (Switzerland)
Microsoft (United States)
MSI (Taiwan)
Motorola (United States)
Netgear (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)
Panasonic (Japan)
Philips (Netherlands)
Sharp (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)
Toshiba (Japan)
Vizio (United States)
We ask that the OP stop using Windows as well as Mac OSX if he truly wants to support the cause he is raising. We suggest he buy a computer created by a company that does not feature on this list and that he install Linux as the operating system. He should avoid using an Intel chip.
To show his honesty and integrity, we also ask that the OP change the link in his post so that it clearly attacks the source of the problem which is Foxconn, and not only one of its many clients, namely Apple. Otherwise, we cannot take this post seriously, and must consider it a cheap attack on Apple instead of a true worrying of what's happening at Foxconn.
We believe the author understands this problem and are confident he will resolve the misinformation present in his posting.
The suicide rate is actually at or slightly below the average, at 1 per a hundred thousand population. The company now has a psychiatric hot line to on-call doctors and counselors for its employees, something few American companies provide.
Suicide is always a tragic event borne of unimaginable despair. Laying its occurrence at the feet of Apple, though, is not warranted.
Apple and other electronics companies should be put to task about their failure to oversee companies like Foxcom for a variety of egregious failings. But they are not guilty, in my view, of creating conditions dire enough for someone to kill himself. Something else was clearly going on with these young men.
They are guilty of supporting and feeding inhumanity. They do not "need" to do business like this. So they do not get a pass on being in their own way responsible and a part ( big ) of the problem.
I'm sorry but if its so bad they can quit or organize like we do here. There are many more workers than there are employers.
As commented on earlier:
[-] 0 points by Mooks (1210) 18 hours ago
They could always quit instead of killing themselves. ↥like ↧dislike reply permalink [-] 1 points by DKAtoday (2194) from Coon Rapids, MN 18 hours ago
Very enlightened. Do you know what living conditions in the most populated Country in the World are Like? It is dog eat dog there for the common people. Most feel blessed to have any work, any way to make a living, and yet things are so bad in this work place that some are actually killing themselves in protest. Think they would do that if quitting was a better option? Thank God you are not in that position. ↥like ↧dislike reply edit delete permalink
Its the same here just at a more sophisticated level is it not. We're better off because we have better conditions than them and all right? Its hard to get a job here now as it is and you're worried about people in another country? I personally think your view on this is a joke.
No. Over there they shoot you for open dissension. We are not currently doing that.
Outsourcing happens because of incredibly cheap labor. Suicidal working conditions make it so. To not speak out against it would be wrong. The abusive practice's are why it is profitable to out-source. Level the playing field can also improve peoples lives while making it that much less attractive to outsource.
Well if you're so worried about them working then you should be happy because they are employed by our companies. If this is the case then don't complain about outsourcing. If you take our companies away from them then a whole bunch of people would be out of work.
Your running in a circle. Reread the petition and the reasoning behind it. Then scroll down and read the input ( comments ). Then think about what you are trying to say. You can't be as callous or unthinking as you sound.
I can and I am. We have problems here to fix and you want to focus outside before you take a look at us?
It's not outside. That is the problem. It is all a part of the problem here at home. Out-sourcing to be obscenely profitable for those sitting on top of the heap at the expense of making others lives a living hell on earth.
Well if we brought it back then nobody there would have a job now would they?
Perhaps they could make a competing product. They have been given the experience. To compete though ( sell on the open market ) perhaps prospective markets would deny until they improved their treatment of their employees.
Hell the Chinese bosses would likely try marketing knock-offs.
As far as I know, Apple has begun, as of about 2 years ago, making an effort to improve conditions at its supplier's factories. It has a long way to go: Foxcom alone employs 1 1/2 million people in China at dozens of locations. It is very difficult to get change quickly there.
And, while working condition are very hard by US and European standards, they are not by Chinese ones. In many ways, they are an improvement on conditions most Chinese people face daily. Factiry work at places like Foxcom is considered by many there as a major step up from the conditions they face elsewhere. Cultural norms must be taken into account when discussing those conditions.
And again, the suicide rate at Foxcom is at or below the national average.
I say none of this to absolve Apple from not working hard enough on improving conditions at its supplier's plants. Laying blame where it belongs and working to make the guilty accountable is appropriate. But making nearly baseless accusations because the if-it-bleeds-it-leads media has latched on to a drama isn't.
Truth rarely hits the media in a responsible manner and even more rare is an extensive follow-up to report on prevailing conditions. These practices are happening now. Hey America support outsourcing it is OK just buy stock don't worry about it.
The bleed it leads story is one generally used as a distraction not to promote change and responsibility.
The bleed it leads are to generate circulation or ratings and increase ad revenue. It doesn't matter if they promote change or distraction. It is only about the bottom line. As to the follow up, that's how I found out about the suicide statistics, and how they are NOT unusual at Foxcom in relation to the rest of China.
America will not again create the kind of infrastructure needed to support rapidly changing consumer electronics production. No one company can create it, and there is no consortium of companies willing to outlay the hundreds of billions it would take. Simply boycotting Apple, HP, Dell, and hundreds of other companies won't change anything in that respect. That would merely be shutting the barn door after the cows have gone.
Did you happen to read the NY Times articles about Apple, outsourcing and labor issues this past week? They pretty much rake Apple over the coals, fairly, I think. But they also shed light on the issues of outsourcing in general. I think you would find them very interesting. If you like, I'll try to find the links to them.
Please.
It does not change the fact that worker abuse is the same as anyother, just as bad and no excuse matters to support it.
China does not want to listen to others on how they should not abuse their people? Fine! Boycott China, Blockade China, do not allow free countrys to out-source work to China. If we can not change their attitude and policy by peaceful rational negotiation. Then have nothing to do with them do not support their practices saying OH doing business will change them. That is a cop-out. They have developed a taste for our money deny it to them unless there is change.
As I tried to say, most workers consider employment as Foxcon a boon, not abuse. Buy OUR standards they have a long way to go. that is not THEIR standards. Would I like to see them get 40 hour work weeks and time and half? Of course! But not only does Chines law not require it, neither does Chinese culture. As their expectations and advocacy increase, so will rules that are closer to those of the West. Apple is not responsible for that. Chinese society and history is.
You want to boycott China? I don't. Not only do the overwhelming majority of consumer products come from there (including the computer YOU are using, by the way) boycotting would hurt the very people you are looking to help.
If I really want to help the Chinese, I will continue buying products made there (if I can afford it). The explosion of manufacturing there has increased the standard of living for a large swath of chinese citizens. As the trend continues, we they will experience unionization, and that has already started. Factories like Foxcon may be harsh by our standards, but they represent not only an exponential improvement of conditions for Chinese people, but only a beginning for them.
The people working at Foxcon come from places where they make the equivalent of 10 dollars per week. At the factories they make 20 dollars a day. And the more factories there are , the more work they have. As they gain in needed skills, they can begin making demands about their working conditions. That process has already begun.
I DON'T like (in fact i hate) that all those jobs left the US, but since they are already gone, the best we can do for China is to continue purchasing their products. AND we can also keep producers like Apple and all the hundreds of others honest and responsible about their necessary commitment to worker safety, the environment and hours and wages.
(Btw, I signed the petition.)
If you brought up all companies that do business with Foxconn your posting might be taken a little bit more seriously. As it is now, it seems you just want to create an attack on Apple and don't really care about the problem as a whole. I suggest you edit your posting and list all the companies that do business with Foxconn. There are very many.
I comment on what is brought to my attention or what I run across myself. If you would feel disposed to doing the research on other companies doing business with them. I am sure it would be much appreciated by "ALL". Then perhaps we could include more to the petition lists.
This does not diminish that continued support for this type of employment/manufacturing is wrong. It should endeavor/inspire research into how widespread the practice is as well as inspire a fire storm of protest to the companies and to the government.
I shouldn't have to do research for you, but what's the hell. I posted a comment with all of Foxconn's clients and up voted it so that it would be at the top of the comments close to your post's contents. That way, I hope users can quickly realize the misinformation in your article. If you wish, you can copy that list of companies in the content of your post and I will erase my comment.
It has been gratefully received and edited in to the original post.
OK. I will delete my comment.
No, don't do that. It would ruin context for those checking in. Smudge clarity of process.
Damn. You're right, but it's too late... craps...
That is OK and still fixable as I copied your comment entire into the body of the post. Just copy the body of your contribution and return ( paste back in ) it to where it was deleted.
I can't paste back to where it was deleted, unfortunately. Ah well, it's not the end of the world. It's just stupid that it remains on top and that's there's no way to down vote it. A forum bug I would say.
Sure you can it was the top of the list. Paste it in as you put it in before. Not as a response to a comment but as a response to the post. I think it will go back in place.
I say let the communist government take care of the problem.
These people ( "PEOPLE" ) are working to make products of an American Company. This is a small world and getting smaller everyday. GROW-UP.
WE can do nothing. Apperently their government doesn't care. This nation went through a similar kind of period. But liberals pissing and moaning about working conditions in China is just self indulgent bullshit. And spewing cliches about the world getting smaller ( no it isn't) just shows a limited intellect. The Chinese people are going to have to change their own country. You getting self righteous changes nothing. It just makes you feel better because all your stupid liberal friends can see you "care". You are the one that needs to grow up.
Your putting "pass" on responsibility, on accountability. If the Chinese Powers that be want outside ( out-sourced ) work they can earn it in proper care of their worker. If an American or any free country company wants to out-source work they should be aware of their leased workers working conditions and fight for change. It is time to stop saying it is their problem and not our concern.
How the fuck do you think things got so messed up HERE. We are all in this together.
Personally I don't think American companies should be allowed to out source jobs. But since that won't happen and Americans crying about it won't change anything. We are NOT in this together. The Chinese people must solve their own problems. Within their own culture.
I didn't think I liked your attitude the 1st time you showed-up now I am certain. You talk like you are scum ( are you? ). Why are you even here? If you do not think that any change can be promoted affected or acted on. Get lost or get active. We don't need anymore Dead Heads.
I don't think you understand anything. And since you don't address anything I posted now I know you don't understand anything. And I don't give a damn if you like me or not. Our country is falling apart. We must change our nation. Screeching about china changes nothing. You are too myopic. And stupid.
No. It is you who is being myopic. Why do you think jobs are out -sourced? Because they can be. What makes it an attractive thing for companies to outsource? Cheap labor. Why is the labor so cheap? Because the working conditions are so poor and the workers are paid so little while those running the hell shop in those country's live like royalty. If we know that these things are going on and say nothing that makes us monsters as well. How do you think you are going to bring jobs back home and run in a humanitarian fashion, if we do not protest the abuse for profit off shore?
What does our saying so on this site do? Make us feel better? I already said I think American companies shouldn't be able to outsource. But is congress or either party going to do that? Nope. The Chinese people won't put up with it forever. And they'll solve it by Chinese methods.
Never mind you are being deliberately dense. Go away and find some of your own kind. I hear they are still digging holes.
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Signed. I'm outraged by this. Don't understand how any human being could not be.
Because they choose to do the work? If you agree to do the work for pay then why should you complain?
Because they choose not to starve? If you agree not to starve then why should you complain?
Because an injustice is an injustice.
Then give them your money. Better yet why don't we pull back our corporations and have no one working over there. That way they starve and you have another thing to want to monitor.
Your humanity overwhelms me. You're kidding, right? Apple couldn't be happy with $395,000 profit per employee? Please!
What is worse are some of the Brain Dead comments listed in reply.
I don't get it either.
These are those who are against addressing needed change. These are the ones saying to us that we can't make a difference so don't try. These are the opposition. This is status-quo trying to disrupt.
Do you think with regard to Apple, this is also just Americans not wanting to face realities about a well-loved American company? Could it be that the lionization of Steve Jobs makes it hard for people who love Apple products to digest this information.
I think some of it could be due to visceral revulsion that America or any American could be supporting this kind of thing. Directly or Indirectly. Some people would rather live in denial than accept the shame of actions supported by their country or its companies. Others as they have stated that they don't care as it is not their problem, these have had more of a status-quo support feel to them - mouth pieces for the greedy/corrupt.
Well put. I think the majority of Americans would be apathetic to this, but folks on this forum are certainly not apathetic, they are knowledgeable and active.
So we will continue to unite for common cause and continue to advocate for all of humanity. So I pray.
AGREE!!!
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Keep in mind its not just apple who manufactures there, almost all consumer electronic companies get stuff built there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn .
All the more reason to take action when it is placed in front of you. We are not going to make change by commiserating with each-other about how ugly the world is and then following up with no action and no speaking out. If we want to better our lives we need to try bettering all lives, especially if it is within our ability to do so. If it is within our ability to try. How bad do things have to get "HERE" before we start allowing these companies to run the same kind of shop "HERE", so that we can have the jobs. Wake up people this is not isolated nor is it unrelated.
Don't buy an iphone, unless you think it's worth how these people are treated.
No "smartphone" for me! Mine are as dumb as they come - the kind you gotta plug in a wall. :)
I do not own one nor do I intend to. But that is all you have to suggest? Your user name is irony or sarcasm?
I have more to suggest. But stopping the purchase of Apple products is immediate. No battling politicians that take money from Apple. I know other companies do the same, but it is most practical to target one at a time. Push a full boycott of all Apple products.
For a long term fix, we need regulations keeping us from importing products from places with these sort of practices. That will require getting people into office that aren't taking corporate money.
Or a fully outraged firestorm of petitions to the companies and to government. We do not need to wait for elections to push legislation. Peoples Lobby.
Got a petition? I'll sign it. Petitions are good, but not alone. I think a boycott is a good move.
I'll contact my congressmen...again. I just wrote them about ACTA two nights ago.
Here you go. This one is to Apple. But I will find or author one to the government unless someone beats me to it.
http://www.change.org/petitions/apple-ceo-tim-cook-protect-workers-making-iphones-in-chinese-factories?alert_id=crrHpqcMba_RKFQTFKGqk&utm_source=action_alert&me=aa&utm_medium=email
Thanks.
Where was the computer/phone that you made this post on made?
Don't know where HP manufactures, not off hand. But are you trying to tell me that because I do have a high tech gadget that I should then condone how it was manufactured ( good bad or indifferent )?
If so go fuck your self, that is if you can pull your head out of your ass.
Wow! I vote you resident asshole of OWS.
Coming from you I should feel honored, God forbid that you showed some concern for others. May I pray that I am never acceptable to you or your kind.
And may I pray that people like you that cry about the injustices of the world to boost your ego never gain any kind of power. Just rail and rant online and pat each other on the back and convince yourselvescf what wonderful people you are. Gonna start swearing and insulting me now? That seems to be your answer to anyone that disagrees with you.
The NKVD prisoner massacres were a series of mass executions committed by the Soviet NKVD against prisoners in Eastern Europe, primarily Poland, Ukraine, ...
Why am I not surprised at your user name connection. I thought at 1st - coincidence? Nope you seem to have an affinity.
Brilliant. You must be soo proud of yourself. Go away retard.
Eat shit and bark at the moon, like other rabid dogs -1 points by NKVD (44) 3 minutes ago
The NKVD prisoner massacres were a series of mass executions committed by the Soviet NKVD against prisoners in Eastern Europe, primarily Poland, Ukraine, ...
Why am I not surprised at your user name connection. I thought at 1st - coincidence? Nope you seem to have an affinity. ↥like ↧dislike reply edit delete permalink [-] 1 points by NKVD (44) 11 minutes ago
Brilliant. You must be soo proud of yourself. Go away retard. ↥like ↧dislike reply permalink [-] 1 points by DKAtoday (2150) from Coon Rapids, MN 7 minutes ago
Eat shit and bark at the moon, like other rabid dogs -1 points by NKVD (44) 3 minutes ago ↥like ↧dislike reply edit delete permalink
Well then you must be pretty happy with our current batch of office holders who are working for Corporate America ( out-sourcing those jobs you are so callous about ). And you will deserve what happens to you and yours because of your insular and immature beliefs. This country is being run into the ground and you do not care. You will not need to thank us if we can save this country and you and yours by extension, because we are not doing it for you but are doing it for everyone. I know I know a difficult concept for your narrow brain. But there it is.
Well I doubt they manufacture in the US, or any other developed country. I was not trying to upset you, I was just trying to show that while the conditions these laborers work in are awful, we all benefit from this cheap labor.
We need to be aware. We need to defend the weak as much as we need to defend ourselves.
Lay off Mooks here, There is no reason to be an ass, I know its the internet, and maybe you do picture yourself as one of the internetz idealist warriors for justice, sitting behind your computer desk slinging insults around at people just trying to make discussion. It devalues your argument extremely.
Also your HP computer was manufactured in foxconn buildings as well. Way to be aware. But anyways, how do you propose These tech companies, or the USA for that matter fix the conditions in a very powerful, communist state? The US being the world police force hasn't worked out for us very well so far, and China is far from being a big fan of having someone else meddle in their affairs.
If nothing else you pull the work! You don't make the excuse that that is how they do business and it is not our place to demand change.
] 1 points by Apercentage (68) 2 minutes ago
Joined Nov. 15, 2011 and look how many points you have collected in that time. Have you been busy taking part? apparently not unless of coarse you are just not as dedicated hole digger and are managing some sort of balance.
If you stop allowing things to be produced in China and the like our standard of living would plummet. Things like cell phones, TV's, computers, and even new clothes would become things that only the wealthy could afford.
Not if the American worker was given their due credit and valued accordingly. we do not depend on China, we listen ( government listens ) to Corporations who say we depend on China, so that they can reap wild reward while the worker off shore is treated worse than dirt. The only reason our economy is not working is because all of the value is being sucked out by a minority of greedy self serving corrupt rich corporation owners Board of directors and executive officers.
So you don't think that if a company was forced to pay its workers $10 an hour instead of 25 cents to make a product that it would have any effect on the price?
Well now that would depend on what the market could bear ( real estate found out about that one ) or whether the owner decided that it really was not a good idea to push proper overhead expense out to his customers instead of pouring less gravy onto his own plate.
Well I guess we agree to disagree then. As deplorable conditions in these developing countries are, I believe we need their cheap labor to maintain our standard of living.
Yep definite disagreement there. We need to put the Bridle back on the horse to keep it from running over the cliff taking us with it.
There are no other locations where such work can be accomplished as efficiently. And the resources and factories already exist there. And it would be fiscally irresponsible to stop utilizing them. Yes the working conditions aren't ideal, but is it something we can change? at this point no, lets be realistic, China while now a world power, still has a lot of catching up to do, and as a communist country its going to take much longer. These people are paid an alright wage as far as chinese manufacturing goes, and do realize their economy is different than ours. What we see as a low wage here, is not a low wage there.
I don't give a damn about the points. I wasn't even aware there was a system for points. I'm not even part of the movement. I just come here for discussion, and shits and giggles. (prepares for the inevitable flames).
COP-OUT by a disinterested individual. Whatever!
"whatever!"? What are you a teenage girl? Now thats a "COP-OUT". ;) Actually address what is said.
Why bother talking to you? You already said that you here just to fuck around. Waste of time as well as space.
Discussion for discussion's sake i suppose. But like i said, you're obviously not up for such things, and would rather go on personal attacks and using unnecessary language, which is awful rhetoric for any discussion.
If I cared about your opinion I might be concerned.
But...... I Don't.
Go be useless somewhere else.
Providing counter arguments is about as useful as it gets in such discussions.
Me being a cookie cutter idealist like yourself and just being a yes man, doesn't get us very far in a discussion, or in the extrapolation of ideas now does it?
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Well here we go more fuel to support the protest to denounce the practice. I am very proud at you.
Thanks. I suggest you clear up the misinformation in your posting. You make it look like it's a problem particular to Apple when it isn't. Take a moment to copy the list I provided to your posting's contents. Also, you should link to an article about Foxconn, not Apple.
Next time, please do proper research before posting. I don't always have time to help others rectify their articles.
Note: I have seen the problem of overseas factories first hand in the country where I live. Not pretty. However, you must also realize that China and Taiwan are also to blame for bad human rights. Going after Apple won't change anything. Going after the real source of the problem might. You need to go after the countries in which these practices occur and companies like Foxconn. Apple is just a client amongst hundreds more.
I do believe that most people here are aware of how wrong out-sourcing and some of it's practice's are.
But you are correct ( ass-u-me ). Expansion of knowledge and completeness of sharing are things to always keep in mind and improve upon. So it is not misinformation it is incomplete information. Or was. You have added a list towards addressing completeness. This is a useful tool of dialog and of taking part.
Fair enough.
They could always quit instead of killing themselves.
Very enlightened. Do you know what living conditions in the most populated Country in the World are Like? It is dog eat dog there for the common people. Most feel blessed to have any work, any way to make a living, and yet things are so bad in this work place that some are actually killing themselves in protest. Think they would do that if quitting was a better option? Thank God you are not in that position.
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All of you are a bunch of hypocrites
Hey. I don't own one single Apple product.
Find my reply below
Sorry you feel that way. But personally I know why I am here. I know what I am advocating for - A healthy and prosperous world. So your comment of hypocrisy means nothing to me.
You may not realize you are a hypocrite but you are. Almost every product that you import from a third world (or developing) country is made by people working in not so great conditions. Right, from coal to mangoes to Tea to Coffee to shoes, each and every item. How many products are you not gonna use? And no, these won't go away if all manufacturing jobs are brought back to America; that's just another opportunistic ploy by labor unions to justify keeping jobs in America at inflated cost (sure labor unions can and should ask for jobs to remain here but please don't tell me they are doing this to save Chinese and Indian lives). Manufacturing is just a small part, our economy depends on metals and minerals that are mined in countries where labor does not have the same standards as we do and there is not much we can do about it.
Every country goes through a labor intensive phase of industrialization. We did back during the Industrial Revolution. Working conditions were far worse then, than they are now in China. But we didn't complain, no one expressed outrage. Yes, labor unions came to existence, workers right got better representation and their conditions improved. But it did not happen over night. We took our time and China is taking it's time and it is in fact doing a better job than we did. Not to mention there was a time we also had slave labor and everyone was fine with it. It would be stupid to accept China (or any other country) to live up to our standards at the moment. Take India for example. The conditions there are far better than China but they too have been through that stage of development.
The other thing is, it is only now that Americans have woken up about the conditions of workers in chinese manufacturing plants. I did not see this amount of 'outrage' earlier. What has changed? Well the unemployment in America has increased and there is a strong push, however naive and ill-informed, to bring manufacturing jobs. That has changed. So now we are outraged. Because we cannot compete with them on cost, so we are wishfully thinking if we could somehow increase their costs instead of bringing ours down. Sadly, the whole ecosystem required for low cost manufacturing has moved to those countries.
So if you are outraged, then don't stop at boycotting Apple, there is a whole list of products that you need to boycott. Do those and then may be I wont call you a hypocrite.
http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/28/industrial-revolutions/
First of all, I don't agree that no one complained about the conditions during the Industrial Revolution and that everyone was fine about slavery. No way.
Secondly, explain to me why Apple needs to have reaped so much profit that it has more money in the bank than the U.S. treasury. Why does it "need" to earn $400,000 in profit for every employee? It doesn't. It's moral bankruptcy.
Did someone say that Apple "needs" profit? Apple wants profit. Apple earns profit. If Apple earns $400,000 for every employee, good for Apple.
Is the U.S. Treasury a business that produces a product that it then sells for profit? If it is not, then isn't it silly to compare it to Apple.
So, no reason to worry about the pillaging of humanity, as long as they're making a profit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?pagewanted=all
If I could have thought of the most inflammatory and exaggerated words possible and used them in a sentence I could not have expressed myself as inaccurately and as fraudulently as you did. But thanks anyway.
Anytime.
Firstly, what i meant was it would be hypocritical to hold China to those standards of human rights that we ourselves never followed during a similar time in our economic development.
As to why it 'needs' to earn $400,000, you are right. Not $400,000, I would rather prefer $4,000,000. What is wrong if a company makes profits and has money in the bank? What business is it of yours? The cash reserve is there for acquisition, patents and to run the company if it hits a bad patch. If they were to reduce this cash pile, would you be willing to finance their acquisitions or may be get your OWS buddies to provide a multi billion dollar loan if the going gets tough? If not, then please, with all due respect, mind your own business and let Apple do it's business and manage it's cash the way the CFO deems fit
You are sounding like a greedy grubber here. I'm not sure I agree that China is going through economic development that is similar to the Industrial Revolution. I would have to think about that some more. China has been around for 5,000 years.
If this is the stance you "capitalists" are going to take, then I'm going to have to become a pure socialist. You've convinced me. The worker's must own the means of production. LOL!
If only I had a dollar every time someone in this forum called me greedy.
If only you learned something each time someone in this forum called you greedy.
If I actually listened to what every other person (and I dont mean you, you are a decent person though very naive) who had to give me advice, I would be nowhere.
I'm always open to learning, smartcapitalist. The more I know, the more I know I don't know. I am always cautious of people who think they know everything.
It's funny. I would describe you as naive, too. And, now that you say you would care for the mentally ill and physically disabled, I know you are decent.
thank u
If you actually gained a dollar every time someone on this forum called you greedy, you would only be gaining wealth, if you saved or invested those dollars. If you spent every dollar you gained, you would be no wealthier or better off and Wall Street would not have been responsible for your loss in ANY way.
That's the simple truth about wealth. We only increase our wealth by spending less than we bring in, OR making more than we spend.
I prefer the 'making more than I can spend' part.
So would every American, if given the opportunity.
You seize opportunities. They are not handed on a platter.
There are not enough opportunities. You simply cannot say that the one-half of Americans who earn less than the median income of $26,000 are all lazy and merit-less and that they don't try and seize the paltry opportunities that come there way.
We've already provided multi-TRILLION dollar loans to get to get the corporations through a "bad patch", with near records profits, no less.
How did you manage to miss that?
Was Apple one of those corporations?
AIG
General Motors
Bank of America
Citigroup
JPMorgan Chase
Wells Fargo
GMAC (now Ally Financial)
Chrysler
Goldman Sachs
Morgan Stanley
Bank of America subsidiaries (incl. Countrywide)
PNC Financial Services
U.S. Bancorp
Wells Fargo Bank, NA
SunTrust
JPMorgan Chase subsidiaries
AG GECC PPIF Master Fund, L.P.
Capital One Financial Corp.
Regions Financial Corp.
Oaktree PPIP Fund, L.P.
AllianceBernstein Legacy Securities Master Fund, L.P.
Wellington Management Legacy Securities PPIF Master Fund, LP
Fifth Third Bancorp
Hartford Financial Services
American Express
BB&T
Bank of New York Mellon
KeyCorp
CIT Group
Comerica Incorporated
Blackrock PPIF, L.P.
Invesco Legacy Securities Master Fund, L.P.
State Street
CalHFA Mortgage Assistance Corporation
RLJ Western Asset Public/Private Master Fund, L.P.
OneWest Bank
Marshall & Ilsley
Northern Trust Bank
GMAC Mortgage, Inc.
Chrysler Financial Services
Marathon Legacy Securities Public-Private Investment Partnership, L.P.
Zions Bancorp
Huntington Bancshares
American Home Mortgage Servicing, Inc.
Discover Financial Services
Ocwen Financial Corporation, Inc.
Litton Loan Servicing LP
CitiMortgage, Inc.
etc., etc., etc. ...
Thanks, nucleus. You're awesome, as usual.
But Apple is not on the list. And even if it were nothing would justify it emptying it's cash pile. Every other tech firm, be is Microsoft or Google, has a huge pile of cash. It helps. Even Sun Microsystems in its bad time right before the acquisition by Apple had more than a billion dollars in cash. So please don't try to teach these companies how to do business. If you think you know better, start your own company.
Who said anything about emptying Apple's cash pile? But now that you bring it up, it's time for Apple to pony up.
By taking advantage of lax U.S. and foreign tax laws, Apple has been able to book a large share of its foreign profits in low-tax jurisdictions and greatly reduce its tax liability in the United States and other major countries where it conducts most of its real business activity.
We also know that Apple products are manufactured with what would be considered slave labor in the US. Great, shining example of humanitarian corporate-think here.
Could you elaborate what those low tax jurisdictions are where Apple is allegedly parking it's profits? It hardly matters what US considers about Chinese labor, they have a government and that government is fine with is. And at any rate, it isn't 'slave labor'.
So is the answer No?
So, the answer is no. Apple has not received any government funds. Just a lot of tax breaks and loopholes, etc. etc.
Does this mean that as long as a corporation doesn't get direct funds from the government it can act as exploitative, immoral and greedy as possible?
Tax breaks exist to provide incentive to companies to work in ways that benefit the society. That's common sense
you are naive if you believe companies are concerned with what benefits society.
What if a company receives tax benefits that, maybe, in some way help that company benefit society, but in other ways the company is extracting a huge social cost, whether that social cost is on Americans (lost jobs, still needing food stamps and medicaid) or overseas (China)? Such as WalMart or Apple?
Then you tax them on the negative cost society has to bear. If a company is polluting, then tax the pollution. But if it is also conducting R&D that is tax deductible, then keep that deduction in place too.
Nice!!! My decent-ometer is going up.
Getting funds from the government doesn't matter. If Apple or any other company is violating the law, then prosecute them. If they are complying with the law and you think the law is wrong, change the law.
That's fair.
You use what is available to you. That is not hypocrisy.
When you find that the manufacturer of the item you are using is manufacturing under deplorable conditions to their workers you speak out against it and do what ever you can to stop the abuse. That is not hypocrisy.
To ignore abuse and continue to buy from an abusing supplier. THAT WOULD BE HYPOCRISY!!!!!!!!
To throw away a tool that can be used to support change, because you just found out the manufacturer is tainted. Would be wasteful foolishness. Use their product against them, but do not support future purchases.
"To ignore abuse and continue to buy from an abusing supplier. THAT WOULD BE HYPOCRISY!!!!!!!"
That's not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is protesting against abuse but still buying the product made by abused workers.
If you have the product before you are aware of the conditions under which it was manufactured, that is a horse of a different color, than buying something you know was made under inhumane conditions.
If you find out your product ( item ) was made under abusive conditions and you can not return it. Then to me it makes all the sense in the world to continue to use it and appropriate Karma to use it to undermine the practice in which it had been made. Kind of an Ironic appropriateness.