Forum Post: I want to apologize for those who tell OWS protesters to get a job...
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 28, 2011, 9:32 a.m. EST by FreeMarket
(42)
from Wichita, KS
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
They have set the bar for you way to low. If you really want to make a difference in the world, you should make jobs for others. Just getting a job helps you, but making jobs can help hundreds or thousands.
If you learn what it takes to sign the front of a paycheck and not just the back, you will have much more influence on the future of your city, your country and the world. You really can change society. In addition you will be helping others in a very tangible way.
Yes, it is very hard to do, but it is not impossible. It may take several tries to get started, but millions before you have done it.
Run your business with high morals and good character. Learn what it takes to treat your customers AND your employees as you would want to be treated.
Do something that REALLY makes a difference. Start a business.
What about expecting wall street to be responsible and get their gambling out of our banking system? it's hard for people to get loans for a new business when the banks are all lending each other money to gamble with instead of loaning money to the middle class who make the bank deposits.
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Getting a loan is harder that it used to be. (This may not be a bad thing.)
Banks are still in the lending business.
A solid business plan will still get you a loan.
None of this fixes the problem of wall street and the banks they are now in bed with being irresponsible with the peoples money. You shouldn't assume that everyone who's mad at wall street is jobless, some of the maddest are people who worked on wall street. Did you do any homework when the banks failed or did you just turn on the TV and believe crap like "the economy is bad because poor people bought houses they could not afford" There were 1.4 trillion in sub prime mortgages out there and at least 10 times that number piled into derivative sub bets, like the CDS we paid tens of billions to pay off. didn't you wonder when you were hearing those numbers who the counter parties were? Did it occur to you that this problem showed up onlt 8 years after the repeal of Glass/Steagall ? Maybe you don't mind paying wall streets gambling debts but I'll be fighting to get them out of our banking system.
My proposal also does not cure political corruption, lack of character in some corporations, deficit spending, or the common cold. All of which I am against. I was just hoping some may read my post, be motivated to start an honest, responsible business.
Do we agree, employing others would be a good thing to strive for?
It a sophmoric question that of course I can't disagree with. how about this one. Should the American banking system be used as a giant purse to pay for wall streets gambling debts ?
I apologize for the perceived lack of sophistication of the question, but there are several on this site that vilify and even demonize all employers with a broad brush. Becoming an employer can be a very good thing, a life changing thing, for both the employer and employee.
My answer to your question is "no".
A solid business plan plus a personal guarantee in case of default which requires a substantial net worth or rich friend...
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On the radio they were talking about our parallel economy, the black market. It is not only for illegal drugs and pirating. Many entrepreneurs get started this way.
More entrepreneurs and inventions are created during a recession.
^^^ Has a job and a photography business. Also supports OWS fully. kthxbai.
You mean I could be Bank of America, or even Enron?
What would it take to design and manufacture the next Pet Rock?
It is blatant nonsense. There is no such thing as job creation out of thin air. It is a matter of work productivity and investment, overall macroeconomical figures which apply for the economy at large.
While it may be true that breeding makes more bacteria the limiting factor is available resources, not the ability to breed.
Becoming self employed was the best thing I ever did.
I haven't created "jobs" per se, but I do hire people on a freelance basis and subcontract some tasks when I have a need to.
This is a good suggestion and a good post. Thanks.
What I keep wondering is why these OWS groups, particularly new York don't formbtheir own collective business with all these college educated people.
What do you think I'll be looking to do once I'm done at MIT? I can't right now because classes have to come first and once I'm done the degree gives me an insurance policy so that I can pick up a decent-paying job on fairly short notice if I go bust.
Insurance policy?
If I start a small business and it goes bust, it's going to take a while for me to pick up the pieces financially. A degree from MIT gives me enough of a leg up in the workplace that I'd have a very good chance of getting a conventional job as well, and thus gives me something to fall back on when hard times hit.
Hopefully, you are majoring in something that can't be done overseas.
Electrical engineering and computer science with a possible double in economics depending on how things go. Those positions are still really hiring even in the middle of the recession and they're actually complaining that there are substantially more jobs in STEM than there are people to do them, so I think if I play my cards right I could do quite well for myself.
I think engineering and the medical field are suppose to be okay. What kind of job would you do in Electrical Engineering? Just curious.
I'm not completely sure yet because I'm still just a freshman and haven't specialized yet. I love working with my hands, but I also love programming and may in fact fall in love with circuit design as well...
School will sell you any degree. Please do your research ... Maybe some how combining it to work in the medical field. Personally, I hate the corruption of the medical field and would rather sell McDonald hamburgers. lol
America loves India programmers. Do they actually still do circuit design in America? I do not know if you are a guy or girl, but do your research now. I know that the workforce commission here provides stats forecasting needs for America. Another word of advice from an older person is when you talk about getting a part time job that would be very wise if you can get one in your field no matter what ind of job it is. It is very hard to get a job with no experience. Ask me how I know! Another thing I learned the hard way is a lot of times it is not what you know but who you know. Join related clubs, etc.. Your mileage may vary ... lol Ha, my maternal instincts has kicked in! (-:
They actually do programming and circuit design in America; I know a guy from my hall who's looking at a $90K per year starting salary working with a company that specializes in analog circuitry. As far as part-time work on campus goes, one of the bast paying places on campus is IS&T (Internet Services and Tech)
Glad to hear that! Good luck and have a nice life young person ... (-:
And you as well; thanks for the chat!
YW Well, at age 64, all I have to worry about is my Social Security and State pension being taken away with the economy the way it is. Bye ...
Many graduates cannot find jobs. Good luck to you though ... as the economy gets worse. Personally, I would have taken the money that MIT sucked from you and started a business ... lots of books to educate how.
I'm currently on pretty much full financial aid because I come from a working poor family, and the way things stand right now that's not necessarily likely to change that much in the next few years. I hope to do this debt-free, and if it comes down to part-time work or a loan I'll grab the part-time work. Dropping out partway through in really uncertain times is a bad idea, because a liberal arts bachelor's is turning into the new high school diploma; having one doesn't guarantee that you'll get anything, but not having one may well mean that you get nothing. An engineering bachelor's from the right place will do you wonders, but no bachelor's at all and I could wind up at McDonald's.
You are right and smart! Stay out of debt ... chains.
you make a good point. but since this hasn't happened, it becomes closer to certain that most of these ows clowns just want to rage against the machine, whine about corporations, and be part of a group because they really don't like themselves all that much.
Bingo
http://occupywallst.org/forum/to-those-who-say-occupy-a-job/
Okay, I've got that solution, now how do I get funding? Because the problem is that the solution is a pretty radical shift from the industrial-production economy. Those with the dough seem to believe the status quo.... ??
Why? They need one.
I agree. You can provide service or product competitively while supporting ows and progressive revolutionary social change globally, locally, partnerships, consistently, forwardly, peacefully.
I'm sorry but your advice is very vague and ambigious. I want people to give me as much detail as possible when telling me things. Others want the gist of it. How can I truthfully treat those the way I want to be treated when others may not want the same things I want?
What is considered good character and high morals? What if the traits of good character and high morals contradict with each other? One of my excellent moral traits is honesty. If I was truly honest with others they would be offended.
Let me put it to you this way. My second cousin uses a fraudulent device which supposedly helps with her arthretis. This device is a magnetic bracelet. All it is is just a placebo. She is experiencing the placebo effect. What if she has a pain somewhere and uses this bracelet and she really needs to go to the hospital? My whole family knows this thing is fraudlent but will not tell her. It is all about making her feel better and think she is better when she is not better. It is all about her feelings and not offending.
This is another thing. If a person's health is at stake their health and death is immiment then their health is more important than being polite to them and not offending them. I would expect the same thing.
Another example is what if I have an odor coming from me. It could be a sign I may need to see a doctor. If no one tells me because they don't want to offend me my life could be endangered. Let's say if I ask if I look fine or smell fine. Most people will say yes. They will lie because they are afraid to offend. If my health is in danger you can offend me at anytime.
If I ask a question I expect a literal and honest answer back. When someone asks me I want to give them that. Treating customers and employees as I would want to be treated will not work for me.
Can you tell us in a concrete and specific what you did?
My advice is necessarily vague, but it is not ambiguous. Here it is:
Becoming a good employer is hard but worth doing. It will benefit you, your city, your state and your country.
As to what is good character, here is a link to a website that helps corporations teach good character. Perhaps some will find it interesting and worth investigating:
www.characterfirst.com
Addressing the line between being honest and being a jerk, I can see where that might be a problem. I suggest you find someone who is honest and yet not a jerk to help you.
No need for me to bore you with what I did or do. The point is what I suggest you do.
My best to your second cousin.
Actually, I do not mind if you told me what you did or do. I have a disorder called aspergers disorder which is on the autism spectrum. I would benefit a lot more if you gave me specifically what you did and are doing now.
I do not have the ability to follow this necessarily vague advice unless you specifically tell me what you did in concrete, specific and literal terms. Your advice is to abstract and to general for me.
I won't tell you want I do for a living for two reasons;
The anonymity of the web is a defense against the very few, but potentially dangerous, people who violently disagree with my views.
You cannot do what I do. Suffice it to say I am in technical sales. Sales is not a good profession for someone with Aspergers.
As an aside, dealing with Aspergers engineers is one of the fun parts of my job. It is not that they have no social skills (as some think) but that their social skills are different.
What you do to start a business will depend on your skill set, knowledge and location. I cannot give specific advice. Sorry.
What good is starting a business in a corrupted system, it eventually will defeat you, unless you fix it first!
If you wait until life is fair to do anything, that thing will never be done.
The current US political and economic systems are worse than some, better than most.
Admittedly without hard evidence, I believe all political and economic systems that have ever existed, have had corruption. Everybody wants less corruption. We can only debate the degree of corruption, and how best to reduce it. Those discussions are not the point of my original post, which was:
Starting a business in the US is hard, but still doable, and worth the effort.
What exactly is fairness? How do we determine what fairness should be? I agree with you, I believe all political and economic systems have had corruption.
if you contribute meaningfully to a crime are you not guilty by association? objectively speaking though. Also, to spin it on its head even further, wouldn't being a working class slob, slobbing away on the social safety net, taking from the criminal's plunder, be the optimal position of a conscious objector? or is that too contentious?
To what crime would you be contributing by providing goods or services at a fair price and paying fair wages?
you are contributing to a system, honestly mind you, that does not have a good track record. Vietnam over dominoes, Iraq over phantom plutonium. inaction during katrina; opportunistic regulation governing deep sea oil exploration. no bargaining rights for medical providers when coming to pill negotiation. Enron's ability to snack on little ol' ladies' pensions. the disappearance of the pensions of some of our greatest workers, having slaved for them in now defunct companies. mountain top removal. ignitable home plumbing. we are after all the sum total of all our parts.
So your argument is: "Because the government and corporations are flawed and sometimes make cruel, corrupt, immoral, and just wrong decisions, I will not contribute good to society even though I could."?
If individual good people do not do the good they can do, the "sum of the parts" will not get better.
I am having a little difficulty telling the difference between an economic conscious objector, and a lazy slug.
oh please, I work for 7.50 an hour and you are trying to equate me to a slug. a slug shuts up, does not listen to his better self, and slims his way to the top. If i'm lazy, so be it. i sleep like a kitten and have food on my table. what else do you expect out of me. after all, doesn't america value the autonomous individual. you can't get more autonomous than being one of the lemmings. I'm hated by the wealthy and miss understood by the rest. you try that.
My apologies. When you said " slobbing away on the social safety net, taking from the criminal's plunder" I thought you meant getting money without working. If you are paying your own way in the world, being a contributor to society rather than a taker, you have my sincere respect.
the analogy works because most minimum wage workers have to collect foodstamps which negates taxes in my calculus. I, when living on my own in a rented apartment, had to subsidies my minimum wage. also, because of the Bush tax credits, I only pay a pittance in taxes. I did not write those rules but i'm not ashamed of utilizing benefits afforded to me. kinda like the industrialist who uses tax loopholes to negate tax payments. see, i learn from my more affluent fellow citizens. and thanks for the apology, i only used the last metaphor to wrap you in the label you used to judge me. cheers!
sssss
Better yet, get together with other people and form a worker co-operative. It's easier to raise capital, you don't have to rely on just your own skillset, and the people working there will all care because they all stand to benefit from the success of the business.
I agree with this. We need to foster a culture of self employment and independence.
First of all a few facts must be introduced to illustrate just how difficult starting your own business can be. I live in a small western town, and was considering opening a bagel shop/bakery, I make amazing baked goods. So lets go over what I did learn and where I was forced to give up. I found a potential location, but as it was not originally built for retail food sales, I had to draw up diagrams of what I wanted to do, and submit to planning department ($80 fee). Next, Health inspection of building itself to determine if building would present any problems ( $140 per hour with anticipated 2-4 hours ) Now here is where I had to give up...environmental impact study $8,000!!! Really? For a bakery? I mean I wasn't even considering a deep fryer so the worst I would be disposing of would be some dirty water, and this is on a street with 17 existing restaurants, cafes, coffee shops etc. IMO requirements like this were sought, encouraged, and enacted by existing businesses to ensure that competition ( especially from the working class ) has to go through hell to open their business. Oh, and as for the fiction that banks will loan if you have a good business plan, I have to say it is to laugh. I began selling my baked goods at our areas farmers market, and thus had a deeply loyal customer base already established. I was even able to show bank receipts that illustrated that I was selling out every week, and making $3-400 in a mere 4 hour period, and even with a business plan that was a thing of beauty to behold, I couldn't get a loan as I " ...had no proven track record." I was offered a line of credit for $10,500 but as illustrated that line of credit would have been nearly consumed just in fees and ridiculous BS and that's before purchasing any equipment, supplies, food, or decorations. Anyone can start a business is just one more LIE told by those who want us to remain safely under iron heels where they feel we belong. If we continue to buy into their lies about opportunities for all, we will keep working for the incredible shrinking wages while dreaming anything will ever change.
The planning department and health inspection fees sound reasonable. These are important safeguards a community should provide. $8,000 for an environmental impact study for a small bakery is outrageous. That is an excellent example of how excess regulation is hurting American small business.
Can you find a partner with experience to satisfy the bank?
I urge you not to give up, but to continue to try to find a way around the onerous regulations and other obstacles. It can be done.
Good Luck.
Looks to me that most of the expenses listed by Denofearth are actually local requirements.
In the state of MO to open a bakery or restaurant the criteria are not so stringent. The environmental impact study should be a moot point as the waste disposal is already in place.
Before one rail against Federal regulations, local ones should be looked into also.
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idled hands are the devil's play things. lol.
Yep, find a good honest business to start that can compete with big corporations. Right!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Hahaha, yea tell the people who oppose entrueprenuers and the spirit of business and capitalism to dive in a create jobs by building businesses! HAHAHA,... okay let's get real.
See, I guess that is where we differ. I got sold a bad bag of goods. As a working class stiff, I began my employed ladled life at age sixteen. I have been harassed, jailed, and have a petty crime rap sheet a good hundred thousandths of an inch thick. I chock it up to progress and self reliance. Learning experiences if you asked me. When everyone else was buying property, I took the easy cash and edumacated myself. Now, I know my nation’s history, laws, customs and preferences. Decided, I wanted to be a political correspondent. Well, this was all before September 13, 2008, when America flipped her wig and started eating her young. Although the fall of Laymen Brothers was just the beginning of the carnage that only blind self interests could conceive, it was the end of my believing it could ever be rational. So, I graduated with a degree and a debt from an institution that loves to eat its own. Well, if that is the case, I’m on strike.
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"You're only as good as the system you're on".
If you are saying the system is flawed, I agree (although we might not agree on just how it is flawed). If you are saying that even though others have done it, it is too hard for you. I disagree.
We need more investment into the College system for innovation and basic research. A recent study showed that more jobs are created through this system than in any other way, even the private sector.
Could you please be more precise than "A recent study"? I would like to read this study.
soory, it was on CNN with Freed Zakaria,..(sp?)...I'll see if I can find a link.