Forum Post: I think it's time for OWS to take a SERIOUS look at a Resource Based Economy
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 19, 2011, 12:10 p.m. EST by bing99
(71)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I learned about this from a post I saw here yesterday. I watched the Zeitgeist Addendum last night on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg. I would encourage everyone to watch at least the first 30 minutes to understand why our current system will never work for the people. This movement brings hope for real change. I think OWS should be taking a serious look into this.
Here is some of the text outlining the project from the Venus project's website (full text at http://thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project).
"Our current monetary system is not capable of providing a high standard of living for everyone, nor can it ensure the protection of the environment because the major motive is profit. Strategies such as downsizing and toxic dumping increase the profit margin. With the advent of automation, cybernation, artificial intelligence and out sourcing, there will be an ever-increasing replacement of people by machines. As a result, fewer people will be able to purchase goods and services even though our capability to produce an abundance will continue to exist..."
"A monetary system developed years ago as a device to control human behavior in an environment with limited resources. Today money is used to regulate the economy not for the benefit of the general populace, but for those who control the financial wealth of nations..."
"All socio-economic systems, regardless of political philosophy, religious beliefs, or social customs, ultimately depend upon natural resources, i.e. clean air and water, arable land and the necessary technology and personnel to maintain a high standard of living.
Simply stated, a resource-based economy utilizes existing resources rather than money and provides an equitable method of distributing these resources in the most efficient manner for the entire population. It is a system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter, or any other form of debt or servitude.
Earth is abundant with plentiful resources; today our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival. Modern society has access to highly advanced technologies and can make available food, clothing, housing, medical care, a relevant educational system, and develop a limitless supply of renewable, non-contaminating energy such as geothermal, solar, wind, tidal, etc. It is now possible to have everyone enjoy a very high standard of living with all of the amenities that a prosperous civilization can provide. This can be accomplished through the intelligent and humane application of science and technology.
To better understand the meaning of a resource-based economy consider this: if all the money in the world were destroyed, as long as topsoil, factories, and other resources were left intact, we could build anything we choose to build and fulfill any human need. It is not money that people need; rather, it is free access to the necessities of life. In a resource-based economy , money would be irrelevant. All that would be required are the resources and the manufacturing and distribution of the products.
When education and resources are made available to all people without a price tag, there would be no limit to the human potential. Although this is difficult to imagine, even the wealthiest person today would be far better off in a resource based society as proposed by The Venus Project. Today the middle classes live better than kings of times past. In a resource based economy everyone would live better than the wealthiest of today.
In a resource based society, the measure of success would be based on the fulfillment of one's individual pursuits rather than the acquisition of wealth, property and power."
I have thought about this SERIOUSLY, and I keep asking the same question over and over:
Why are there no experimental 'resource-based economies'?
There obviously are some die-hard believers in this idea out there, since they post every few hours about it here. Why aren't any of them putting their money where their mouths are and donating their entire estates to Peter Joseph so that he can use those "resources" to demonstrate what an awesome idea this is?
Look into the kibbutz in Israel. That´s a Resource Based Economy right there, but without the latest technologies that the RBE in this day would provide. No money, credits or barter, you "give back" what you can to society if you can. My father lived there for a number of years so I know what I'm talking about. In Zeitgeist: Moving Forward it is mentioned as a rehabilitation place for people because it's crime rate is 0%, no violence of any kind. They have the menatlity which is what we lack and we have the technology that they need; unfortunately we need to change our behavior and understand that change comes from within knowing that the environment molds us. If we take money out of the way the sky is the limit. I recomend you read "The best that money can´t buy" from Jacque Fresco; it is well explained how money is destroying us and how a RBE would be.
Well then why isn't there a Zeitgeist kibbutz somewhere?
Because the idea is to use the technology available today to free man from labor that can be automatized, so everybody can do what ever they want, wouldn't you like to have more time to do what you like? more time with family and friends? sports, etc?
How many of you are there?
In Chile we're about 30 or 40 people that are active in the Zeitgeist Movement. We work on different activities and projects. There's a lot of other people that help and know about the ZM but are not that active. How about you? Know much about the movement or involved?
Why don't you 30 or 40 people pool all of your money together and create a resource-based economy?
Well, The Zeitgeist Movement has been around only for 2 years, first we need critical mass and then we can start a RBE, we need resources for cities and unless we leave this economic system, we wont be able to access those resources.
We are forming the first resource-based nation.
Olancho is the idea that human prosperity and thriving ecosystems are achievable through the application of renewable energy and appropriate technologies, sustainable agricultural practices and good government.
www.republicofolancho.com
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agree
I joined the VenusProject group as a volunteer Systems Analyst & Software Developer. I've also read similar sites such as VictoryCities.com. I have been working on the above Business Analysis needed to create RBE City of 65,000, for the last 27 years as a Marine, Certified Public Accountant, Computer Programmer, and Socioeconomic Analyst. RBE is a perfectly viable solution, the problem is getting people to FINANCE it's "new" cities, and by people I mean a Home Town Bank of 65,000 Members as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein, as Business Owner-Voters, of an existing Town of 65,000 (which Members can be national, but their Town location can't). Why? Because in order to destroy the existing system (and replace it with an RBE City of 65,000), you must first control that system as Bank & Business Owner-Voters. Why? Because today's Top 1% Management System of Business & Government will NEVER finance an RBE city, for such a city would completely undermine their Wealth & Income, which is 2/3 of all Wealth & Income. What you MUST have to build a "new" RBE City of 65,000 is a "new" Home Town Bank of 65,000 as described at (revised): http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategically_weighted_policies_organizational_operating_structures_tactical_investment_procedures-448eo I have 18 people in our group at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems ready to form that Home Town Bank of 65,000, and thus ready to finance an RBE city of 65,000. An RBE city can be built, but you need 65,000 people in a Home Town Bank of 65,000 Members to make it a financial and tangible reality, agreed?
We need 2 basic things in the Occupy movement: Win the friendship of the armed forces and police all over the world and spread the idea of an Resource Based Economy.
Yes, we must cooperate to survive, the time for change is now!
In order to achieve a RBE we must break the scarcity paradigm we have and start using technology to create abundance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f04fCbFStks
I was really into Zeitgeist when I first learned about it, but agree with some of the posters here that raise concerns. The thing we need to do is concentrate on the fact that the house of cards that is our monetary system will fail eventually, it's only a question of when.
So what is our fall-back position? A RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY (RBE) is a viable solution and well worth discussing. The question is, how to implement it? I think Zeitgeist has a very optimistic view of how it would go. But I think together, we can find something that works.
But i agree, it is a particularly tricky sitation, it has to be slow so values are updated to the situation "/
If we have critical mass, we can boycott the system and then bring a transition as soothley as we can, tecnical issues are adressed in one of many Peter's speeches that are available at his radio website.
Yes, I've read through a lot of that material, and at the very least it could form a foundation to work from
I agree. A lot of the people that are critiquing the idea, haven't educated themselves on it. They already hate the idea due to their presumptions.
Just for your information... there is no such thing as non-contaminating energy such as solar (made from silicon, arsenic and phosphorus) , wind (kills birds and bats left and right) or tidal (which kills fish by the thousands). And by the way, we live now in a world where even the many of the lower 20% live like the wealth of 50 years ago (if you count tv, cars, computers, cell phones, cable, air conditioning etc.)
yes... resources for everyone, no shortage for anyone... of course, this is great stuff.
let me know if i can have my army of megan fox sex slaves.
The reason why nothing in this world will change for better is the people like you who have been conditioned by their environment to want ridiculous things like this. Another nice example like this by people like you is to have ten golden helicopters for everyone. Boy, I laughed my ass off the other day at this. It is just so fricking hilarious how our current system produces morons like this..
what is "ridiculous"? ten helicopters? or the fact that a computer can figure out what is the "optimal" living condition for everyone in the world?
computers can't even figure out what is the right price to buy and sell equities on the global financial market. forget about all the complicated things like human behaviour.
It is ridiculous that you think someone would even claim that a computer could figure out optimal living conditions ;) You have clearly misunderstood something here, big time. Where did you get that exactly? Some science fiction movie?
ha, my thoughts exactly. does that mean all the hot women of the world are now shared with the community?
shared???? no my brother. you can find your own... i'm not touching yours. you're not touching mine.
I'm not sure the slaves would think the world was so great then, unless you are really special LOL
The Computer that this RBE talks about all day will work something out. i have great faith
That computer is just a glorified calculator, and btw, we have a society that is obsessed with sex, and its not healthy.
we were meant to procreate. the desire to procreate dominates almost all other desires, including thirst and hunger. it ensures the survival of our species.
Try looking at this to get a journey thru many questions. At 63 & VERY dizzy of this merry-go-round & looking 4 intelligent answers 2 global problems (especially w/grandbabies now) i found (via ZAddendum) Mr. Jacqu Fresco & his 'common sense' approach 4 the entire globe.And by 'common' i mean 4 the common good of all people AND the environment. This revolution, 2 me, has been goin' on since the days of Moses. You kids get the chance BECAUSE of technological advancement to eventually let go of what's become crutches & stand up. Your generation gets the chance to graduate & FINALLY say "take this job & shove it" I say, GO FOR IT! It is indigenous philosophy & modern tech (used wisely). What a match. Your children/grandchildren will thank you instead of say WTF!!!!! In Solidarity - Mamma D "^_^" http://www.unitinghumans.com/
We are making a go of it in Olancho. Stay tuned.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Republic-of-Olancho/149833091753264
www.republicofolancho.com
Hello all. Though I have to respectably disagree with the idea of a resource based economy, I can agree that that new economic systems need to be taken under consideration. Capitalism in its current form will eventually cause more inequality, and will ultimately undermine the middle class in America. I have conceived of a new idea that I think some of you may find interesting. It’s called Utilitarian Capitalism. The system is designed so that Corporations would have to weigh profit equally with the human element. If utilized, I believe I could be an effective job creating tool, and could spread prosperity far more extensively. You can visit my Forum post called, Utilitarian Capitalism an appeal to Rationalism, or just check out this link. https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/bdbPRg. In any regard, keep the ideas rolling. The world is certainly in need of them.
Just curious, why do you want to create more jobs? Are you some kind of a work-a-holic or what? ;)
Wouldn't less jobs sound better? Less jobs but distributed more equally. It might sound like a novel idea, but wouldn't that be worth considering? Nowadays, people have jobs mainly to get paid. And why do they care about getting paid? Because that's their only way to access what they really need, i.e., the basic necessities of life (and some luxuries if you're lucky enough). Why not eradicate the need for jobs, money and barter by providing the people with free access to everything they need? This would lead to a tremendous saving of people's valuable time. More time to do what you really care about, and, most of all, to educate yourself.
"I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" ~HAL~
http://superunion.org/m/articles/view/One-Direction
Hate to break the news to you but with 7 billion people on the planet if you really believe everyone of them is willing to equally split the pie then you are absolutely crazy. It's not in our nature and anyone that believes it is needs to get their heads examined. People always want more, always take more (by force or deceit). Ideologically it sounds great and wouldn't it be fantastic if the world worked this way but my reply to this is NEVER! It just won't happen.
Again, Human Nature is a myth, just take a look at Feral Children, it has no cientific backup, you can correct those values through education and enviorment. You can teach people to be satisfied and not be greedy, but that won't happen in this system because if it does, bye bye economy, no one would buy anything and everything would go to hell.
Sorry, You're wrong!
Great arguments and cientific data man!
You only need to look at History, raise children, or actually get out into the real world to know your wrong. You can provide no scientific data to back up your absurd conclusions.
Also take into account there are large number of people that suffer from mental illness that manifests itself in violence and theft and it's easy to see how ridiculous your unfounded conclusions about human nature are.
There are people on this planet that actually strap bombs to their own children to further their cause. I don't care what it is you believe in it's evil and insane to do something like that.
You can bathe a pig and dress him in a suit but he will wallow in the mud the first chance he gets.
What an amazing depth of understanding of the universe! Please educate yourself on these matters before making any hasty conclusions. Why do you think thievery exists? Why do you think people have learned to want more and more? Are you really that blind that you cannot see the underlying causes for all this? Well, scarcity is one for sure. How do you think there could be these problems in a society that's based on producing an abundance of everything humans need access to? You really think humans behave that irrationately or randomly and would steal from one's neighbor when they already have everything they need? I think you should really think about this again before you open your mouth the next time or someone will surely laugh at your childish world view..
Thievery exists because people are not perfect. Thievery will always exist because people will never be perfect. You may think to yourself "I can live in a Society like the one I've described" maybe you could. You've failed to take into account that there are 7 billion other people on this planet besides you and what blindness if you really believe all 7 billion are capable.
The fact is we are not all created equal but we do deserve equal opportunities. Everyone is not able to rise to the same levels. As long as there are differences of intelligence, physical strength, and appearance there will be inequality on a practical level.
Also take into account that not everyone has the same desires, tastes, and the same activities that make them happy.
Animals are territorial and they possess no currency. Don't bother with the argument they don't have an abundance of goods and not enough to go around. I have to think millions of Wildebeest migrating through a plane in Africa can supply enough meat for every pride of Lions on the continent but lions know better then to encroach on another prides territory. There is more then enough fruit in trees but different species of monkeys run the others off when they arrive to eat. I have bird feeders in my yard always full with an abundance of seed but birds are run off all the time by their own kind.
It's also lunacy to even believe we can create an abundance of everything humans want and need with the current and future populations of the planet.
You can't stop floods, earthquakes, famines, and so on and so forth and each of these create need that people react to to insure they survive. You will never convince a starving family to continue to starve because help is on the way when it's impossible to meet everyone's needs and insure survival.
You can control a person's behavior by force when they are young but you don't change human nature. Scratch that, nature period. Canines, birds, primates, even fish in your fish tank are witness to the FACT that there is no such thing as share share alike and everyone is equal in our society. You may be able to gather 30 or 40 brainwashed individuals together that can succeed for a little while but you will never impose and imprint your ideas on an entire nation or species.
Get real there are people that are wired to work hard and devote themselves to it. There are people that are lazy and take advantage of anyone they can. You don't change those facts and those types of people will ALWAYS exist no matter what you may think.
It would seem there are a few people living together in the same fantasy land. Understand the difference between what sounds like a great ideology and reality.
I'm sorry, but it seems that you did not come here to learn, so I have no reason to continue this discussion. It seems like you have made up your mind already, which is sad. All I can say is, never stop questioning your beliefs. It takes time and careful consideration to realize which beliefs are useful and best represent the reality, and which are not. All the best to you my friend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K91ITIrXdqk&feature=related Robert Sapolsky, Neurological Ciences, Stanford University. Seriously man, i ain't that intelligent to conclude this kind of psycological and biological situation. :) BTW, people that suffer from mental illness should definatley be treated as "sick" people, as patients, who need only help, not as criminals. A person who straps a bomb around a child clearly has issues, and oftenly religious or of some kind of dogmatic ideology that offers no true cientifical and analitical process of thought, and they should be educated and certainly sorrounded by another kind of enviorment, such as the kibbutz. Before we continue this conversation though I would like to apologize if I sounded agressive or insultive in my previous post, sorry! :P
This philosophy is wrong. You are splitting equal pieces of a pie that stays the same size. The beauty of capitalism -- and yes, one motivated by profit -- is that the pie is always expanding. So that those who even get a small portion, are still better off in 20 years than they would have been getting in equal portion of the pie 20 years earlier.
Oh boy.. How is the pie not getting bigger in the proposed model? You think printing more money makes the pie bigger? It is all about the resources and what we produce of them that counts. There is absolutely no need for money. Hang on tight on your beliefs, they really make sense.. :D
Don't you realize that the pie is getting way too big? Consumism and "Economic Growth" can't keep on happening, its takin mother earth to the verge of the abiss...Capitalism doesn't help splitting it up so everybody gets a piece! Some people are slaves for crums of that pie... And you are absolutley wrong about improvement of conditions...Technology and science make the difference, not more money, and those improvements will always be made as long as if you're not still stuck in the monetary system that holds them back because you can't profit from it, there are many scientific breakthroughs that have been made years ago but still are kept under 7 locks because of so called profit. In an RBE, the improvements will be for everybody, not just an elite, and people will hold in high esteem socially positive values such as collaboration and work for the human species, and they will be free to work in any area they want. Please take a closer look at what scientists say about Human Conduct and so the fraud of "Monetary Incentive".
wrong. The pie only appears to expand. In reality, the pie is finite, will always be finite. Our current paradigm assumes an infinite resource reality. To have continual growth, you need places to grow to. Where do we grow from here??? Space. for one. But no one is focusing on that at the moment.
Lol! Communism under a different moniker.
God people just don't pay attention do they...Communism works under the Monetary System, they have banks, social fragmentation, jail, compulsory jobs, corruption, war, etc... Non of wich are present within a RBE. Ofcourse some things are common, but the system has nothing to do with communism, capitalism is closer to communism than a RBE, to me capitalism is the same thing as communism actually. Please read and inform yourself before posting.
As I've said, this is nothing more than dictatorship by computer, it is antithetical to freedom and what OWS is fighting for.
Sorry to break that bubble but Nature is a dictatorship. I doesn't care about your opinions, and no matter how much freedom you would like to have you still can't ignore gravity. It is unbelievable how much crap the people have in their brains nowadays.. Oh, and another thing, you're badly mistaken. It is not about an AI takeover, you must have watched too many scifi movies. Technology is just a tool that frees humans from laborous and monotonous jobs so that they may concentrate on more exciting things. That's what I call freedom. I know these concepts may be hard to grasp without any basic knowledge of science and technology, but not knowing any better doesn't justify stupid behaviour and comments.
Yeah man exactly, a dictatorship that gives you back all your time to do whatever the fuck you want, all the resources you could ever need to do whatever you need or want, a dictatorship that has no police or jails, no laws or goverment, how can you live within such a system??!?!?! .... Please pay more attention to what you read before posting uninformed opinions.
Right, like we haven't been promised such bullshit before.
Its not about a promise, its about achieving it technically, proving it through the scientific method, for example a decision that computers would take is, how much food do we need to produce. It would be calculated from the total amount of people in the world, not by the notions or the idea of how many people there is, so the computer would calculate it and then delegate it to a special comission of people willing to work on it. Through technology we can create abundance, something that will never be possible in a monetary system due to the fact that if something is abundant, you can't sell it.
It's kind of ironic that a movement with so much concern and compassion for human beings simultaneously has such contempt for humans that they would turn over control of our vital resources to a machine.
Hate to break the news to you but with 7 billion people on the planet if you really believe everyone of them is willing to equally split the pie then you are absolutely crazy. It's not in our nature and anyone that believes it is needs to get their heads examined. People always want more, always take more (by force or deceit). Ideologically it sounds great and wouldn't it be fantastic if the world worked this way but my reply to this is NEVER! It just won't happen.
This philosophy is wrong. You are splitting equal pieces of a pie that stays the same size. The beauty of capitalism -- and yes, one motivated by profit -- is that the pie is always expanding. So that those who even get a small portion, are still better off in 20 years than they would have been getting in equal portion of the pie 20 years earlier.