Forum Post: I find this whole thing disturbing...
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 30, 2011, 3:52 a.m. EST by yurip
(79)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Even if most of us were living on the streets we would have it infinitely better than 99% of the rest of the world. WE are the 1%. It's just sad... I buy a lot of little things from a little group in Africa that sells bracelets and necklaces (and the like) made from their most predominant and readily available resource: spent ak-47 cartridges. The depravity in most countries pales in comparison to current economic woes.
I truly wouldn't even mind this movement so much if you guys just had any specific goals outlined.
As it stands you're just costing the middle class and poor that much more money in police overtimes, cleanup, etc...
Hate on me all you want you should be worried about the children bloated and dying in a desert rather than not being able to use your liberal arts degree.
I understand you're angry, but with no focus it's pointless...
Folks, have said this here several times, but will repeat. The ONLY way you'll get real change in our country is through the ballot box. You can "occupy" anywhere you like but without broad-based electoral support you're just pissing in the wind. On the face of it, most OWS people dislike the Tea Party. However, Tea Party people have many of the concerns OWS people have. The Tea Party is better organized and has already sent people to legislatures at both the state and national levels. My advice...get with Tea Party people. Find areas of common ground. Work together. Get people in office. Go for the long term, because those you oppose certainly think and work that way. Otherwise, all you have done here will go for naught.
I just gave you a thumbs up. Tea Party has been officially a strong force since 2009. In two years+, many candidates. It doesn't take a GENIUS to find a candidate. It's called the PRIMARY. That's why you people get hosed. You ignore the time when you're most likely to get your guy elected. Then when it's time for the general election, "DUH....." So, yeah, join the Tea Party near you or else form a similar organization. I guarantee you, because I know, you'll be welcomed with open arms. If you don't like the first one, try a second one. They're all different.
look for the Constitutional Amendment wg in a few days
I believe our democracy is broken - by money - but is not disposable. use it or lose it
Three organizations – AMONG MANY- NRA and AARP and Tparty have been enormously successful and powerful – by using their votes- WE MUST TOO !
TOP OF MY ( long ) ISSUES LIST:
Select your issues & FIND YOUR REPRESENTATIVE & SENATORs CONTACT:
Then, “grass roots” your issues :
The key, of course, is republicans in congress
Important Note:
With the pervasive fraud in our whole system, how can you even trust a "ballot box?
I hear you, but what are the other options? Keep in mind that a number of Tea Party-affiliated people were elected in 2010, at all levels. The people you oppose COUNT on voter apathy. Tea Party members aren't real apathetic. Neither are you folks, but right now your efforts don't seem to have any direction. That's why I believe some sort of OWS-Tea Party fusion has real potential for getting supporters into government at all levels.
Saw yesterday about OWS Oakland closing the Port of Oakland down for a while. So? Proves nothing, people. Some businesses were damaged and some people took off work. Got news for you. The people you oppose do not care about such actions. They do not care about these encampments. They can do their things from home, from offices anywhere, etc. Hate to bum people's trips, but the people you oppose do their stuff without reference to you. And they'll continue on their merry way until elected representatives who want what you want, who can write and pass laws, get into office.
Winter's coming. Close down the camps, start connecting, start organizing. Start finding people to run in the 2012 election. Do NOT look at this as a one-election deal. Gonna take a while to get enough people elected. Remember, the people you oppose have had generations to develop their system.
Well intentioned, but has one real problem logistically Jack. The ballot box. It may be VERY controlled, the corporate donations undermine a great deal of democratic intent, and media will bring no real information to the voter, who also has no way to refine opinions.------
Very much to your credit is the suggestion that tea party and OWS align. By dissolving differences we unify with power enough to preserve the constitution. Again, information to both movements is very difficult to facilitate.----
Now, strategically considering that both movement MUST have maximum influence over government to see demands met, which means that an Article 5 convention must be supported by both movements. CAtch what Mark Meckler, tea party leader has to say at the end of this 10 minute video of attendee comments at harvards conference on Article 5 on September 25.-
Article V conference, Mark Meckler Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-video comments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-7ikbvu0Y8
I wonder if this poster would have said anything without the OWS creating a stir to begin with...it's sad to say Americans are apathetic too much of the time about too many things.
Cages needed to be rattled, the apathetic needed to be shocked into a response, to remember that all of us have allowed the acceleration of the destruction of our economy by NOT paying attention...that you too had a part in the 'very people 'they' put into office'.
How could I comment on OWS if it didn't exist? I don't understand. You'd have to be robbed of all your senses not to know that there's corruption in business and the government. I'm not old enough to have "put people into office." But I fight for who I think is best for our country. I ally with neither the right or the left, but the candidate who I think will serve his state best. Right now I think that is Ron P aul. But nobody seems to want to listen. What can ya do.
It's not about commenting on OWS I was referring to, but rather would you or many of the others have said anything at all about the corruption that abounds in both our financial systems and our government?
What seems to be the biggest problem isn't who's at the top of the political arena, but rather who is pulling the strings, and there are a lot of strings.
I keep pointing out a President does not have the authority so many seem to believe the position has, too many don't seem to understand that simple fact.
As for your choice of candidate, it has nothing to do with any of this, no more than my own choice would. A choice by the way, I am honest enough not to place on these pages. This is not the place for promoting any candidate, it is not a campaign platform.
I find it hard to believe that so few seem to understand that the goal of OWS is to rattle cages, to make people sit up and take notice and to hopefully take action as individuals.
There are many diverse groups which joined the OWS movement, groups which are attempting to bring to the attention of the public their particular concern, the OWS has opened up a platform for those concerns to be presented in a bright light rather than in dark rooms.
We are for the most part a nation of immediate gratification. We want, what we want, when we want it... including goals laid out before us by others.
It seems that some believe it's time to begin negotiations, yet neither side is yet ready to negotiate, then that time comes it'll be time to lay out the goals, and ask for everything and accept as much as we can get, then ask for more.
This is a month old movement, how much can anyone expect to accomplish in a month when it's taken decades to arrive at this point?
You are still in the box, you seem to be thinking, but it's still stuck in that box...climb out and take a look around.
We do have goals
1st is to change the national debate
2nd is to vote out ALL incumbents that pass free trade, antilabor, pro 1% laws
3rd is to get pro 99% politicians in office
4th is to prosecute the bankers, corp leaders, and politicians that BROKE THE LAW.
5th is to get BIG money out of politics
There are plenty of other goals, but these seem to be the biggest ones out there, and we are already moving on these.
i like them all but i would start with #5 up the list
you have to do 1 2 and 3 before you can get 4&5 done.
we are taking the 1st step now by changing the national debate.
The second step comes in the winter /spring primaries, by voting in the primaries, people have their first chance to vote out the incumbants.
the third step comes next fall by electing prolabor profreedom pols, and getting rid of the ones that make it past the primaries.
then by keeping up pressure on the politicians 4&5 can get accomplished.
I like #4...and would like to add...and get our money back!
amen on that
Yes, but we are being turned into those poor countries, many of which were emerging democracies and developing economies before bad actors committed social suicide.
I'll say this again, I wholeheartedly agree with these statements that we need a radical change. But if you have no --goals--- or --plans--- there's no reason to protest.
Well, we once stared up at the stars in wonder, eventually we formulated a plan to take a closer look. We once bled the ill to make them well, eventually we learned to dispense real cures. These things take time. Took time to rile up so many Americans, will take time for them to formulate a plan. They're having their first big board meeting right now, you might say. Anyway, looking at the Arab Spring as an example, obvioiusly they think that despots hate large disruptive crowds enough to eventuallly take their ball and leave.
But the point is that "wonder" is hurting the middle and poor class even more. It's costing them millions in police overtimes and sanitation difficulties. That's the point. The people who this movement is trying to help are the only ones being hurt.
I agree partially..if you're going to occupy, be accountable for your mess, etc...otherwise you're part of the problem and not the solution..However, I dig all the brothers & sisters being out there...but without progress, what's the point? Pick one goal at a time & let's move on it!
The reality, not the point, is that this many people don't just spontaneously react this way unless there is a real problem that is out of their control. If America doesn't want to pay its taxes, and corporations are what we're talking about here, then this is going to be the result, immense social unrest that is only going to grow, if just one corporation that is dodging its tax responsibilities paid its taxes, it would more than cover any cost to NYC and other areas. Simply stated, freedom of speech is not free, and any CEO who forgot to put that into the marketing plan for 2011 should be fired, because their taxes are really, really going to rise in 2012 and beyond, and their short sightedness will quite possibly cause a Soviet-type of take over because they have completely overstepped the bounds of reason by laying off so many workers accustomed to a middle class life American style and lobbying to cut the social safety net. I believe the real reason, if you want to know, that corporations are fightng so hard today to cut their taxes, and to demonize the sick, old and needy is that they fully intend to bring jobs back to this country, because their little outsourcing experiment cost them even more than paying American wages and benefits. Shipping raw materials overseas and then back to a troubled domestic economy, having to pay American managers to live overseas, having their patents stolen by overseas workers and hiring overseas workers who can not afford to buy their products and popularize them among their peers. They need by necessity to bring those jobs back to the USA, but before they do that, they need to knock us all down a few notches, hence the foreclosures and layoffs.
That is a very interesting point. Is there anything else you know of that has more on this idea?
Just google it, several news reports on the patent issues have been on newscasts lately. This is a developing social story and I believe that the story is taking this shape. But would you move to some third world backwater where they don't even have proper bathroom fascilities and drag your wife and kids to work there to manage a bunch of impoverished workers willing to put in a day for a few cents? That is just one of the problems they must be facing with outsourcing. Also, just do the math, sending raw materials to an overseas port and then shipping them back to the US market that actually appreciates and wannts those sophistocated products, has got to cost more than American labor and benefits. Also, it just doesn't take that many workers today to make say, steel. So the idea that it costs too much for labor and benefits doesn't hold water. I saw an interview with the CEO if GM recently I think it was on Pierce Morgan and he stated that the cost of labor to GM today is about 8% of the price of a car. Hmmm. that might suggest that some very powerful employers are laying off people while making huge profits, on purpose, for spite. Just to moc the American dream before it gets exported all around the world. Just for spite, just because they are hostage to their own alienation from the human spirit. Quoting PT Barnum, "There's a sucker borrn every minute", faux news sould use that as their motto
You made sense until you mentioned your sick "alienation from the human spirit" Marxism. And the "faux news" giveaway - you just can't help yourself, can you, left-wing radical pawn?
Luv it! Seriously, I'm just an average person who must say that Fox News often goes overboard imposing their views on others by suggesting dire consequences that may or may not be true, no one can say those things with any certainty. Just letting you know what I think from what I see and hear, Don't know much about nor do I trust any ism. I think that if it's workable, then I and you are smart enough to figure it out, and I am coming to some interesting conclusions. Don't want to impose them on you. Those words you wrote above, they're not your own, you miight ask yourself why you feel duty bound to repeat them. I think they are Shawn's. Actually Fox news does some beautiful reporting and graphics and presentations. But every once in a while you've got to admit they turn into Mrs. Kravits on Bewitched-- "Arthur Arthur you won't belive what's going on at the neighbors house!"
Is this about liberal arts degrees? I thought it was about getting a fair shake from the plutocracy for everybody, not just students.
But who are the members of this plutocracy that are driving this nation? I thought it was big business and their funding of campaigns, but a post on here yesterday supplied a link to stats showing the top donators were unions. it's very confusing.
I believe any organization that has the power to buy government influence, whether it be unions, big business, wealthy private donors, whatever, is part of the plutocracy that controls our lives. A simple constitutional amendment to keep this money influence out of politics (limit campaign donations to private individuals only and no more than $100 per individual, something like that) is our best chance to get our politicians to work solely on the problems we face. Who gave you the biggest donation should not be part of the equation.
I agree. However, I was under the impression that corporations were the biggest doners. Also the fact that Fed of Teachers are so involved in OWS and yet they are number 11 on the list of contributors to campaigns.
Presumably somewhere out there there is the one person in the world who is worse off than everyone else and so can think about improving his own situation with a clean conscience ... everyone else is basically a bastard.
One thing in your post puzzles me: the apparent assumption that it's only possible to worry about one thing at once. If you attended a demonstration, would that cut into your time so much that you wouldn't be able to buy African craftwork?
I didn't say that. I specifically said I wouldn't have any problem with the movement if there was any specific goal outlined. You can't get what you want unless you outline... what you want. That's why I feel like it's an insult to people with severe social and economic issues. There's so much protesting... but... nothing there. Just making the middle class and poor class dwindle even further with city expenses.
Think globally, act locally.
If you think Karl Marx is the answer, try reading him. (1) He lies. (2) He assumes. (3) He indulges himself. No wonder Lenin thought he was an idiot. Leninism is what you all are espousing - POWER. You are powerless left-wing dolts whom Lenin would kill as soon as you were done helping him overthrow the order. Stalin would have murdered you sooner. Go read Lukacs. The REAL revolution is at the ballot box. Always has been, always will be. You dolts scream bloody murder about "democracy" in other countries and then you don't vote! Ugh! You are the defeatists who Lenin despised.
get rid of the big companies by taking them over and replace with a co-op and then you will see real political change when the soft money and lobbiest dry up
Don't hate you. But, you are missing the point. Those cartridges were probably spent to enrich the1% (Chevron paying African governments to kill their own when they try to prevent the spoiling of their environment).
We are worried about children dying in a desert, but they are dying from the same cause as that which prevents those better off from using their degree, liberal arts, or otherwise.
Boiled down, there really is one specific goal, ballots, not bullets - ballots, not dollars. People before profits, every time and all the time. This is more complex than a single legislative agenda.
You need to question your fundamental assumptions about society, as we all do. Those of us who call ourselves the 1% understand that. Can you get your head around it?
The average American is far richer than many in this world. Every Christmas I use to come across these sad statistics. It made me more aware of worldwide abject poverty and to count my blessings.
If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof overhead and a place to sleep ... you are richer than 75% of this world.
If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, and spare change in a dish someplace ... you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy.
If you woke up this morning with more health than illness ... you are more blessed than the million who will not survive this week.
If you have never experienced the danger of battle, the loneliness of imprisonment, the agony of torture, or the pangs of starvation ... you are ahead of 500 million people in the world. **
Now with that said, America is on a downward spiral and may end up becoming a third world country sometime in the future. Factor in 1) the growing unemployment rate which is currently at 9% (we don't have an accurate number because people who have been unemployed for a long time and no longer collect unemployment insurance are not counted. They have simply falling off the grid.) 2) The non-stop outsourcing of jobs 3) The suppresion of wages 4) Price inflation on just about everything 5) Decline of property values 6) Increased property taxes 7) College students coming out of college with huge student loan debt and unable to find a decent job (unemployed or underemployed) 8)Health care costs going up and up (also consider the fact that over 46 million people in this country have no healthcare and are an accident or illness away from financial catastrophe) and 9) The obvious and deliberate attempt by the powers that be to decimated the middle class.
You must see that Americans will be a lot poorer off than they once were. This country may in time become a third world one. Why are third world countries poor in the first place? The simple reason is because of the poor distribution of wealth among the people (e.g Jobs). In those country there is an elitist class who hog up most of the wealth and give next to nothing to their poorer country man. Corruption and greed is rampant in these countries. OWS is speaking against the corruption and greed of the guilty members of the 1% because it is making the rest of our country poorer (by lack of distribution of wealth.) This is how they bankrupt everyone. They want us all to be debt slaves. Owning money for the rest of our lives and never getting ahead. Now is the time to change things. We can't afford to be complacent.
BTW, the American people have poured out tons of money over the years helping the poor in other nations. We, until late, have always been considered one of the most charitable countries in the world. Australia, at last, has beaten us out. If the elitist achieve their objective of bankrupting and creating debt slaves out of every American. We, as individuals, will not be able to continue the rich tradition in given to charities domestically and internationally. Thus, the world will be in a worse place. Just some food for thought I wanted to share with you.
Hey, I do not fail to count my blessings. But , am I supposed to go around thinking that things are generally OK, just because they're worse somewhere else?
The elitist agenda is to make the entire world "Third Word" with the exception of their gated communities.
Wow, and nobody responded to this, just deleted a point from me. Come on already!!!
i'm not so sure it's necessary to state specific goals. rather, let things remain open and encourage input from everyone, as they are... let true leaderless community evolve. it isn't a race it takes time change is already happening everywhere it's perhaps the only constant we have :)
I wouldn't have a problem with that if it wasn't costing the poor and middle class millions of dollars in police overtimes, city cleanup, etc. That's why I am saying it is just a very large WASTE of potential at the moment. It's very sad.
yeah, cost in many respects, not just financial, are at all levels. it's part of change. maybe it will make things less sad for us all as a whole. current system is pretty haywire and out of balance, so maybe it will be start of something positive :) i'm going to sleep, gdnite brother!
Good night! Take it easy! Fight the good fight.
Look at Egypt, Lybia, Syria, etc. Despots hate public displays of discontent, which ultimately makes them go away, like magic.
focus can come over time awareness is already accomplishment
Awareness of what? Corruption? I think you underestimate the American populace. I'm sure a grand majority would agree corruption exists in business and government. But I'm just saying if there's no goals you won't get any change. It's as simple as that.
those sufferings you speak of, all tie back to WALL ST. there are more than enough resources on this planet to feed and house all of us 10 time over!,. it is the sick corporate-state capitalism,. that and the greed of the 1% that stops any improvements in the lives of people everywhere.
The goals are as specific as they need to be; get money out of politics, create a democracy, hold the greedy bankers that stole so much accountable,.
See, here you go with this BS about "your liberal arts degree" why the denigration of a small part of this movement for getting an education? is that anti-intellectualism? There are people from all walks of life at the occupations and supporting them.
Seems rather focused from here,. time will tell. naysayers be damned.
how do all these sufferings tie back to wall street?
Yeah I really don't understand that?
The liberal arts degree comment was obviously a little simplification of an idea to compare it to an actual and much more damning problem. I didn't think anybody would take it literally.
Like I said, I'm not AGAINST the movement, I'm against that there's no CAUSE. It's not like I hate people protesting or something. I'm fine with protest as long as there's a set of goals to be made accomplished.
Yes, but it is obvious that most if not all SP 500 corporations are attempting to un-do the prosperity we so value. Some African countries now in misery, were once thriving new democracies with tourist and resource industries. But bad actors tore off the veneer of civility, just like what is happening now in America. We need to protect what made us a success, and allow it to shine as a beacon for other cultures to follow, not allow it to erode in the name of social darwinism. Survival of the fittest is not exactly posted in the jungle as the law, it's also a man-made idea that doesn't work as well in practice as it does in theory.
No doubt. Not disagreeing at all. All I'm trying to say is unless you have specific goals to go forward with, nothing is going to get done.
It is simply a natural outpouring of outrage. History is full of such moments. The focus will arise from the durability of the dissatisfaction, and a common language will eventually permeate the greater populace, this is exactly what the offending corporations fear the most, the loss of their unquestiioned high social status.
I've heard 4% and 20%
let's not pretend that other nations have no wealth
It was obviously an application of the "tagline" of OWS. Don't be so obtuse.
how was I obtuse ?
"Let's not pretend..." a little patronizing.
I was not happy with the wording either
what might be a better way to say that?
Well hahaha that's kind my point. It didn't need to be said at all. What I said wasn't supposed to be taken as a direct fact of information. So... there's not really a "right" way to say something based on a misunderstanding.
Perhaps maybe something like "I understand you were making a correlation with us being the 1% but..." etc.
I prefer the correct error when I see them
but my concern is that some US citizens may believe we have the best standard of living possible and that is not the case.
Obviously not, a perfect society is impossible. We can always improve. I'm just trying to make a point that it could always be much much worse. And if you don't have a focus towards your protest, you're insulting the people with so little.
I try not to us the word "you" when discussing a subject
Looks around...that's... that's very noble. This really isn't a forum for strict third person narrative though.
but I am
I is first person? So... I'm not sure what you're getting at. Prepositions are destroying my sentence grammar right now.
Guys, I'm from a rich country with poor people. Is it possible ? Yes, you can see this all over the world, including Africa. Why ? Because of the interests of big corporations. They are using your politicians to make this happen.
So, if you really are concerned about poor people form other countries, clean the mess in US and automatically, you'll clean the mess in the whole world.
That's not necessarily true. Taking money out of politics in the US will not help the people starving in Somalia. Nor will it solve the malaria issues. Nor will it bring safe cooking implements to those who have no electricity. We don't have it so bad here.
Some poor countries are poor just because is more convenient for the big corporations, especially those involved in natural resources. Why ? Simple.
Poor people = uneducated, weak, scare, people. This means much easier to control and corrupt their leaders. (to be short)
Corruption of local politicians, means HUGE profits without any responsibility for the people and the environment of that country.
Taking money out of US politics means that you are taking out the agenda of big greedy corporation, from US external politics.
It will be a huge difference. Just my opinion.
But some of the biggest contributors to campaigns are unions not corporations. That keeps getting lost here.
209.190.229.100/orgs/list.php?order=A
Agreed. Something (rather, many things) is wrong.
Just take a look around you. Don't ignore the truth. And if you want to change it, be not fearful and BE the change.
First, please go skim this ex middle class man's story and tell me the plight of some of those hurt in this isn't tragic-- sure there is stuff "more tragic", but it takes a pretty black little heart to read that and then try to sit like some accountant of pain and weigh one human being's despair against another's so you can decide who deserves compassion and who should just suck it up. I'm not accusing you of having a black heart, I don't think you would faced with a reality vs. an abstraction, which is easy to try to measure, but plenty of the folks who come here specifically to hate would.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltsy3y7RJt1r25y9yo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1319991584&Signature=uDR%2F9NIRMuUb0ys5ZdX9eH0vde4%3D
(There's a blog with over 1000 people sharing their stories who are in very similar straights, some from poor choices, but most like this guy, who didn't do anything bad to deserve that. Because there are haters in this forum so vile that some might go and taunt those people, I can only link to this picture and not post a link to make it easy for any of the vultures here, but you can take me at my word, there are so many more.)
Second, claiming that it's unacceptable to stand up to one example of injustice simply because there are worse injustices being done is a blatant logical fallacy even if just left at that. Injustice should be fought where you can fight it, and when you can faced with several injustices there's no rule about which you must do first or how much at a time you should or shouldn't attempt aside from making sure you are ready to keep at it -- you can choose to take on whichever one you are most prepared to realistically deal with.
Though one doesn't need to leave it at that because your argument is wrong on more than one level. As a for instance, it is no secret that many people here and abroad think that the most powerful influence brokers (the .01%) in the US, had a big hand in setting up the system that has steadily increased the income disparity to where it is at today, No longer a gap but a yawning gulf that makes what we had in the gilded age look downright egalitarian.
It's also no secret that these guys are equal opportunity exploiters- they stripped opportunity and the social safety net from their own people, and with just as little concern for others they've manufactured excuses to engage in profiteering wars whose entire purpose was to increase their wealth both from selling your goods to maintain the war machine AND from looting the wealth of the nations we went to war with. Like Cheney did.
Not to mention that many of the same policies that hurt us, hurt the global economy as well (Like an American recession in a world were a lot more countries than ours depend on a strong dollar, and ask any Mexican what our drug war has turned their country into. There are literally dozens of examples one could add here but for now those 2 should suffice to show the range of how Americans are hardly the only ones screwed by America. Which in part explains why the rest of the world has been so supportive of us, they knew well before us that how it goes with the slaves in one oligarchy, so go the slaves in others. We're the only idiots who thought we were above them and turned a blind eye to the shit we've done, only the joke was on us since we were getting screwed all along too.
Which is why on Friday it's telling that a small group broke off from a bigger demonstration in Tahir Egypt, and marched to the US Embassy to show solidarity with Occupy Oakland. Just a small group, but they aren't the only ones who immediately made the connection between the 24 year old political prisoner, Essam Atta, recently tortured to death in Egypt, and 24 year old Scott Olsen shot in the head for exercising his right to protest. Thank God it looks like he will recover, but either way, what they have in common is being victims of state sanctioned violence against its citizens.
http://boingboing.net/2011/10/28/tahrir.html
But anyway, the point is since people around the world ARE connected, and in fact at this stage, especially with Global Warming, we are so interconnected that we will join hands and create a better world for all of us, one step at a time, or we will perish together. Sink or swim, no lifeboats for anyone.
Technically the one sure thing we can do to fight those "worse" types of injustice around the world, is exactly what we're doing, standing up to it here. The world is so happy to support us, they've been wondering wtf took us so long.
Cont below-
cont-
Just yesterday a study was released comparing countries for overall equality of opportunity and the room allowed to improve your lot in life through hard work,by using indicators of social justice like income gap, real unemployment, education funding and average debt,etc, out of 31 nations, we ranked 27th. The only countries ranking lower are Mexico,Chile, Greece, and Turkey. Can't find where I put the link, there is enough info given to google a couple queries and find it on your own.
So the people who taunt on here about get a job are doing us a favor. Because pulling that in a country where despite the official claim of 10% unemployment, the real number is 17% for optimists and realists put it around 22-23%-- Wow, baiting about the job thing? Bad idea if you want to encourage us to chill out and give up. Now add all the people working over 40 hours a week at the official minimum wage and not coming even close to breaking out from below the poverty level, which is an easy 10- 12%, that's 35% of the population with with not much to lose. I could point out a couple other demographics and bring it up to half, but I leave room for the reader to see if they can flex their bean and guess one themselves
So the only thing pointless is folks not realizing we have already won this, since the prosperity that made people wuss out the last 10 times we should have been up marching and telling them hell no? Well those Dumb Asses took that. So the ONLY trump card the government has is what a few trolls have made scary hints here to threaten --whats in store if we don't go home. But that's not scary, we won't get violent and give them an excuse, and already the ones one the street are learning how to spot the moles-- so they try to use force they will have to hope that quick strikes will scare folks, because extended and unjust action like Marshal Law for long and for no good reason??
Anyone afraid of that has no respect for our military.... and are way too gullible if they've bought the line that the military are even close to brainwashed (why all the robotics? If you can get em to do anything, surely you can't believe that every soldier is so precious to our military they'd rather risk machines that are not cheap yet?) The military is on the people's side, sorry trolls who may be reading. Simple demographics. The military is recruited almost exclusively from the bottomish rungs of the 99% and has been for a couple decades now , only officers come from folks with much in the way of prosperity LOL
As for goals, why are people so hung up on goals, when unless we expect the protesters to keep it up for 12-18 months, they are going to leave the occupy camps well before any legislation makes the slow crawl, and we've been fed tons of promises so what they say doesn't matter, only what they do. This isn't about legislation yet, this is about staying long enough, and going out in the spring at twice the force just so they know damn well their obligations again, because every time they do forget, the numbers will grow. Asking a bunch of citizens for a list of how to fix problems they know damn well how to fix better than anyone since they broke this? Here's a list that covers it all. Transparency, Fair Dealing. Get to fucking work government and 1% slackers--
So no detailed lists--This is about waking people up and making them look around and assess the reality vs the sham, and for those who already had, showing them they are not alone. And this is about reminding a millions of people who had given up hope about the whole strength in numbers thing. Direct peaceful action is scary to them because it works. If it didn't they wouldn't care, they'd wait us out. Why the desperation to try an scare folks into going away? Because Peaceful Protest and Civil Disobedience Works. :) I don't know the folks are thinking when they say "no call your congressmen" even after the man behind the curtain is right there for all to see, and we've been asking to be represented for years with no luck......but to those that say work within the system? Ya, we are. Read your copy of the constitution and bill of rights.
For those on the extreme right fringe who are scared enough or paid to spend hours at a time in here? Sick of them pretending they represent in any significant numbers, so figured I'd ad this link too.
http://www.tnr.com/blog/timothy-noah/96620/republican-rank-and-file-message-again
BTW, I often post and comment long as a good way to warm up and brainstorm for getting to work. Please don't think it a sign of hatin' .. I write, a lot. If the length means anything is it's just about educating,who ever..
Wow ok I read all of that. And you go off on a lot of tangents. I'll keep this brief because I want to eat some ramen. 5 star meal ftw.
Tragedy Never said it wasn't tragic. There are people going through terrible things. But this protest doesn't have enough focus to help these people. The guy in aforementioned tumblr picture doesn't benefit from any of this.
Injustices Of course you should fight injustice. But you have to impose what changes you want to battle it. As I said, I would have no qualms with the movement if there were actual goals and specific points striving towards.
Gulf of Wealth I mean, yes it is true there is a larger gap between the rich and the poor, however what everyone seems to ignore is that the poor are richer too. It doesn't give any absolute condition of the poor. Here, I'm no economist, I don't pretend to be, this kid explains it really well: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDhcqua3_W8".
Alright, I'm not sure where you go off here, something about drug wars. Which I wholeheartedly agree on, I think the drug wars in America are the most inane things in the history of our nation.
Global warming is the most overblown issue I have ever seen in my life. A lot of people take what is told to them at face value. The "scientific" group that you hear all the time in the media reporting on global warming is made up of almost -entirely- politicians. They just want your cash, bro.
Why am I so hung up on goals? Why aren't you? You should be rabid about establishing them. No changes can be made unless there's a specific meaning behind them. Social change can only come through specific implementation of specific ideas.
Civil Rights for African Amercians --> Protest --> Rights granted Indian Independence Movement --> Protest --> Independence Granted ???? --> Protest against Wall Street --> ????
Yeah, thats why I explained how I post at the bottom... I use posts to warm up, because unless I'm communicating with people, the using a prompt to warm up thing never worked for me.
List or no, they won't get legislation through any time soon... I think on the whole they've achieved what they were meant to do, they've woken the rest of us. Trust me, if every one went home tomorrow, which thankfully they won't, what they've started can't be undone now. Folks are looking at things closer now and talking, folks know everyone feels pretty much agreed on most of the problems even if not yet clear on the solutions. I think the real action as far as more focused political protest is going to start in the spring, and then keep going till it sticks, and that may be awhile
Because the Civil Rights Protests happened in waves over years, so expecting that in one month the occupy movement should have a perfectly articulated platform or it's on it's way to losing is ridiculous. Civil Rights started with the Bus boycott, which happened over many months over 1955-1956, the Greensbo sit-in wasn't until 1960 and the Selma Marches weren't until 4 or 5 years later. So after 10 years of protests the voting rights act of 1965 was passed, and the civil rights act didn't get passed until 1968
The government, the banks, and the people, know what the goals are, ending unfair corporate influence over our political system, and returning economic justice to the people instead of the unfair out of kilter set up we have currently. To act like "Oh dear, no one knows what you want" when indeed it is clear from media reports and polling that what people are protesting against and want is fair politics and economic justice, is disingenuous. You may indeed be worried, but most who are making this claim are not, they are using it as a tactic to discredit a movement that is right where it should be, and has a long road ahead.
[Removed]
[Removed]
My impression is that OWC has a crime scene and until all of the evidence and facts are in then a resolution can be written and presented to the judge.
[Removed]
So you'd rather me not support them and have them starve instead? I give them all I can. I hope I can move over there and do even more for them. You have to ask yourself: what is that family's next best alternative? Being a drug mule? There's horror stories of things like that. Where women are forced to carry 50 bags of heroin onto a plane so they can feed their children? No I'd rather have them in a t-shirt sweat shop. That's horrible to say, but wouldn't you? These people only have so many choices. It's pretty arrogant to say that I should stop giving them money so that they'll be forced into things like prostitution and drug cartels.
[Removed]
I want to be free too. And as I've said a billion times in this thread I don't disagree with the motives behind the movement. I disagree that there are no goals or specific outlined protests. If you don't make --requests-- nothing will change. I think this movement would be far more useful if it focused more on government rather than business, but that's just my opinion.
[Removed]
Trust me, I can't make any real change. I love that people want -something- to happen, but I think they just don't know what. Which is why I'm afraid nothing will end up happening.
[Removed]
We live in the United States, and are concerned with our own plight. Do you support the despicable gluttony of billionaires at the expense of the people they exploit?
I have answered this question many times in this thread, but I will reiterate as I did in my opening message: I do not condemn the motivations behind the movement. I think there needs to be serious change in this country. But, with no goals outlined, or no plans being executed, there will be no change. That's the point. As it stands this movement is merely a waste of the middle and poor class' tax money. Costing them even more millions in police overtimes and waste cleanup.
Keep falling for the propaganda and distractions.
Your concerns are valid and need to be voiced and heard, but it would be much more useful if you thought of some proposals yourself. The people are sick of sitting around and waiting for something to be done that helps the people, and yes that means all of the people on the Earth. So ask you- what do you propose or what goals do you have?
There are many great ideas being presented and even more bad ideas, but we all need to share our own and get involved in the process rather than only critiquing it (of course the critiques are welcome as well, but at least be creative and add something new with your voice!).
I welcome you to see some ideas of mine and others as well at a more structured forum at: http://www.themultitude.org/forum/index.php
Most of the good ideas on this forum simply get lost without a search feature or are not responded to in comments. So bring your concerns to this new forum where we can debate and discuss new ideas.
I honestly think just doing these three things will make a -MASSIVE- amount of difference. Those would be my demands if I was an OWS protester.
These may be good ideas and I've seen them mentioned a number of times before. The problem is that they need to be debated with strong sources and thoughts for how to implement the ideas going alongside them. This is a good start to state some demands, but we need much much more detailed debates and discussions around these ideas and many others with the issues, commonalities, and differences being presented in an openwiki knowledge base for this movement.
Concern Troll. Go home.
I don't understand the point trying to be made.
We are the top of the world in wealth. Our culture, on the other hand, is very poor.
I don't see Occupy Wall Street as a political movement, necessarily, but more of a cultural movement. The American Dream is dead and gone. Herbert Hoover confused the dream by making it about having a "chicken in every pot and a car in every garage." Since then we have thought the American Dream was fulfilled by possessions. This movement seems to be more of a cultural shift, the realization that living a life devoted to amassing more stuff than your neighbor is no life at all. We need a new dream, one that is focused around education and the betterment of individuals, which is centered around freedom. This movement seems unfocused and, to some, pointless, and if it were a political movement I would agree. But, it's a cultural movement. Culture is hard to define and pinpoint. The movement wants people, on the whole, to change the way they view these political institutions, and the way money is the religion of the Western world. This shift in perspective is what will become the political movement, with focus, not the shift itself.
I may be missing the point, though. Maybe it is an unfocused political force.
That's a fallacy. If it was a cultural movement the government or big business would be irrelevant. Those are products of culture not culture in itself. Our culture is poor? We have more artistic and philosophical creativity and freedom in this country than any other in the world. Heck the fact you can even PROTEST with being gunned down in the street is a sign of this. And when I say gun down I mean not a few isolated cases of bad violence by bad policemen, I mean bullets flying towards the crowds as people die.
[Removed]
Well your peers would disagree with you. From what I see people want money for themselves from the upper class. If there is any modicum of a message coming from OWS that's probably it. I haven't seen any signs saying "give my money to other nations."
[Removed]
I agree with this. This is my biggest issue with this movement and has been from day one. People in the US are spoiled. It did encourage me, however, to up my monthly donation to Drs Without Borders. There are a couple of things I can agree with, such as getting money out of politics, but then I saw the statistics on here about who gives the most to political campaigns and it's mainly unions, with the federation of teachers as a top contributor. then the absurdity of it is fresh again.
Yeah... I feel the same way, Pinker. We are very spoiled in this country. Sometimes the grass isn't always greener other side. Too often we ignore the rest of the world and their problems.
The only strategy that can meet demands at this point is Article 5 of the constitution.
Our first right in our contract is Article V, the right to have congress convene delgates when 2/3 of the states have applied for an amendatory convention.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.-------
A effort each evening to create a web conference to discuss Article 5 is beginning.--
http://www.articlevmeeting.info/
Comprehensive strategy.---
http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.htm
To amend what? What is being amended? What do you want to change? That's what the whole world is asking and there's no answers.
The specific amendments that will address the demands and meet peoples needs can be worked out when delegates are being elected to convention.-----
Clearly, wars, election reform, corporate person hood and the federal reserve can all be properly addressed by article 5 amendment of the constitution.
Well I mean, that's what I'm saying. Without demands your rally serves no purpose. Why are you all together if you have no specific demands? Part ways and reconvene later when you actually have something to protest for. That's how I always assumed protest worked, you have something you want, you protest for it. Right now it's "we maybe kind of want this but I dunno."
Great post! Lots of really good points, questions.
yurip wrote: Well I mean, that's what I'm saying. Without demands your rally serves no purpose.END-----
Not my rally, I'm simply here on this forum trying to contribute a method to become fully lawful and gain authority for the American people to meet demands.
yurip wrote: Why are you all together if you have no specific demands? END------
That is actually a very good question because failure discourages protest and they are failing because many municiplaities are deeming them lawless and removeing them. In some ways, it could be this,---
http://politics.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/
on steroids:) -
yurip wrote: Part ways and reconvene later when you actually have something to protest for.END---
Very logical. The ones running OWS apparently have a process where law, reason and logic are easily blocked putting everything back to a beginning where everone agrees its time to complain.
yurip wrote: That's how I always assumed protest worked, you have something you want, you protest for it. Right now it's "we maybe kind of want this but I dunno."END-----
First we must separate want from need. Major corruption of language intentionally caused by academia teaching only euro socialism, or something else I can't define.
Protest that works in America goes like this: First a problem is identified. Then a law related to its resolution is identified. Then the official having the official duty to enforce the law that will solve the problem is identified. A certified letter or petition is sent to the official demaning the law be enforced and the standard 45 day of contract is applied. After 45 days protest in demand against the unlawful violation of duty is legally allowed.-----
You willl find NOTHING like that in anything OWS is doing. But they could and probably would except their process has people "blocking" when they cannot produce a legitimate reason to do so. Subjectivity unexplained is allowed to control.
You seem to teeter between agreement with OWS and disagreements. Understandable I 'spose.
I'm not nearly as formal in my prose, but I'll just say I understand what you're saying, however in some ways it doesn't make sense.
I don't even think OWS is necessarily failing, because to fail you have to try to succeed first. You can't lose a race without ever running. Which is why their movement hasn't disbanded yet, because there is nothing to fail or succeeded at, there is no goal.
I really wholeheartedly agree with you where you say that reason and logic are blocked and it simply resets the entire pendulum again.
Academia is full of corruption, no doubt. We are being taught that socialism and government controlled by the few is the best way to go. Which I think is definitely an underlying motif in this movement. That kind of scares me, considering it's the decisions by the few that got us to this point. A resurgence of Austrian economics or Hayek-ian principles would fix this problem, but everybody has this love affair with Keynes.
Right I agree with your paragraph about protest. And yes, there is nothing indicating that OWS is doing any of those things. Which is kind of my point, that there is no reason to participate in this nonsense if there is nothing actually being protested.
I think this movement has more to do with social acceptance and order rather than actually committing to a cause. Which is a real shame. Because I truly believe this country needs a radical and large change, and this could be a cataclysm of such, but at the moment it is merely a large waste.
This movement is only costing the middle and poor classes even more money, millions in police overtimes, city cleaning, etc. It is only hurting the ones it's supposed to be helping.
I disagree with their methods but agree that something needs to be done, as you do.-
yurip wote: because to fail you have to try to succeed first.END-------
Okay, or, their methods do not constitute a coherent effort, or "try", so therefore they have not even tried.--
Thanks for your coherent and comprehensive posting! Consider a username change with art5 after your name.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Yes their methods do not even constitute a coherent effort. I completely agree. What's with the art5?
Article 5 of the US constitution is the ultimate form of democracy over the principles of the republic controlling the government. Here's some history on congress relating to Article 5.--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_to_propose_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution "Congress acted preemptively to propose the amendments instead. At least four amendments (the Seventeenth, Twenty-First, Twenty-Second, and Twenty-Fifth Amendments) have been identified as being proposed by Congress at least partly in response to the threat of an Article V convention."
If we urge OWS to abandon their current non strategy and adopt a state by state demand to legislations to apply to congress for an article 5 convention, a pathway to serious and permanent change can be created. I was asked by mindhawk here to put together a list of steps, which I did, then incorporated into a page.
http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html
Analysis of applications for a convention. Congress violates the constitution for 100 years. http://www.foa5c.org/mod/resource/view.php?id=2
A lawsuit against all members of congress for not calling an Article 5. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
Article V conference, Mark Meckler Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-video comments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-7ikbvu0Y8
Lessig power point on article V http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk
A effort each evening to create a web conference to discuss Article 5 is beginning.-- http://www.articlevmeeting.info/