Forum Post: I don't see the point in fighting a climate-changed winter. Let's have a victory rally then regroup in April, stronger, bigger, and better
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 12, 2011, 10:53 p.m. EST by pumpkincurry
(20)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
We've won major concessions already - Tar Sands, net neutrality, that racist in Arizona, etc. Let's have a victory rally before Thanksgiving, go to our families for the holidays, let Mother Nature do the protesting, as she has done for a few winters now, then return on a date certain in April, bigger, stronger, louder, and ready to take on the Democratic and Republican National Convention and the elections, etc. Doesn't that make sense?
We also can't afford to have the protestors get sick from being out in the cold and besides there are other ways to still get your message across until the warm weather returns.
We should NEVER stop occupying until we emerge victorious. Humanity is at stake. Plus, this life is sick and disgusting. I refuse to live in it any longer. Plus, we have the Iowa caucuses to occupy in January.
I like your intensity...we need more of it from around the world. Too many of us have difficulty moving out of our comfort zone....and that is really what we all have to do at some point....even me at 68.
DramPen: Wow, pretty dramatic. I hope for you that life is not sick and disgusting at all times. If you want to physically occupy the streets until we emerge victorious, that's great, and I wish for you nothing but the best. I'll be there when I can, but I have to balance my personal, family, and employee needs over the long haul. Your idea of targeting Iowa in January is very good, if not imperative. It behooves us to think of ways to have a dramatic impact there, then.
Don't do anything stupid it will be all right. Take a nap.
The street presence is a symbol. If the symbol vanishes, so does the movement.
JonoLith: I'm going to think about that for a while, as at first blush I don't believe it to be true. I believe that we could survive as a movement being seen and felt through other tactics. The Tea Partiers don't vanish when they are not having rallies in public parks, do they?
The Tea Partiers got usurped and warped up by the Republican Party. The only reason you hear about the the Tea Party is because of this. If the Representatives who came from the Tea Party actually stood for the Tea Party, we wouldn't be in this mess.
sort of like christianity would vanish if the bible vanished
Oy... why make it a religious thing...
Fun Fact: The Principles of Christianity were around before the Bible. Love, Peace, and Forgiveness are what make us Human.
OWS is a "shot across the bow", a warning shot. A ship that sits firing repeated warning shots loses credibility. Remaining in the camp/occupy mode is destined to fail, which would be a failure of epic proportions considering how successful the action has been.
NYC needs to Declare the Occupation over. It needs to explain to it's supporters why it's the right thing to do. It needs to explain that this is not the end, it's the beginning. Imagine the shock waves around the world, respect +1 and the collective sigh of relief for the 99% It's the 1% that isn't going to like the sounds of this...
Victory is to the #occcupy movement, but this is not the time to go "home". Now it's time to get to work. It's time to pound the pavement announcing the coming National General Assembly July 4th, 2012 in Philadelphia and what the significance of that is.
Finally, the occupiers need to help clean up and demand that the cities deploy resources to assist the homeless.
Interesting points, Farewell. So I think you're suggesting that the OWS movements change tactics at this time - close the camps and work on the National General Assembly in July. Not too far from my suggestion we close for the winter and come back in the Spring stronger and better organized. It's interesting that the only other responses are from a climate science denier and a person unsure on the science. Everyone I talked to here in San Francisco and Oakland thinks it's not a bad idea to quit with these victories under our belt, and return in strength in purpose in the spring.
well well well http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/adbusters-occupy-wall-street-innovator-movement-wind-start-spring-article-1.977956
They missed that boat but there is another one coming. If they miss it, then, there may not be another for quite some time... Bring it up at the Oakland GA, my postings fell on deaf ears in NYC and my local #occupy. As you point out, sitting around denying and being unsure ain't gettin' us nowhere!!!
let's get together and talk : )
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/ i'm gong to donate my Tom Petty autographed guitar to help make Philadelphia happen, and i'm just a struggling single Dad with net worth = next to nothing.
I agree...regroup, organize and come back stronger than ever.
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=GGaOpsGTObs
I agree! We have to organized and focused on our real strengths. Look people! We have this all wrong. This is not about them. We are the real power (99%). 1% is nothing. It doesn't matter what they think or what they want. To hell with them. We are the real problem and it's in our heads. For some reason as mighty as we are, we seem to think we have to fight from a position of weakness. This is absurd and exactly why we're in this mess. We don't need to protest 1% of the people for change. It's up to us to make the change. Remember - this is a democracy and the land of the free. Majority rules. That's how you take back your country. Let those ass-wholes sleep outside. The real revolution has to take place in your head first.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM
Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org )
We can also choose discrete actions, like supporting this worker who refuses to leave his family in the middle of the night afterThanksgiving so people can shop earlier!
"Anthony Hardwick, a cart attendant at a Target in Omaha, started a campaign to protest the decision to open at midnight, four hours earlier than last year. His petition, on Change.org, calls for Target to push its opening to 5 a.m. Friday. The petition had 62,000 signatures as of late Monday.
"With the midnight open, you're going to cut into a lot of people's family time because you have to rest up if you're going to be working overnight," says Hardwick, 29. He says he'll be in bed by 2 or 3 p.m on Thanksgiving."
Let's prove them wrong: "My guess, based on past trends, is we'll see massive amounts of consumers in stores, even at these earlier hours," he says. "If you think about it, 9 p.m. and 10 p.m. are more convenient than 4 a.m."
money/industries/retail/story/2011-11-14/black-friday-backlash/51205118/1?csp=hf
This is a secret troll, watch it.
Frankchurch: By "This is..." you mean "He is..."? Please explain. I've been pretty forthcoming with my ideas and my reasoning. If you want to dis me, please do so, but try using an argument, or any kind of definition, or anything but simple stupid idiotic mindless slander.
I agree with retiring the parks for the winter - BUT
take all of those energized people into ACTION groups.
I'm working on an anti-CU amendment.
We have been screaming hundreds of demands-
I demand that we stop demanding and start working!
With the weather changing all the protesters need are snowsuits capable of withstanding the cold. Hikers/skiers/snowmobilers and hunters use them all the time in the winter and last days outdoors battling the elements. No need for colder weather to be what ends OWS.
Fire: and here in California we'll just continue to need sunscreen. But as I said in another post, what will you do when your mother asks you to come home for Thanksgiving? I'm not talking about ending it. I'm talking about having the next rally in April. In my mind, that's a big difference.
Well for one if my mother was alive, she would understand completely that standing up for change and drawing attention to the inequality is more important than a turkey dinner. I am 42 yrs old, and a mother of 4 with two grandkids. Every single member of my family would support me 100% and probably bring thanksgiving dinner TO me, not the other way around
Thank you for responding, Fire. I'm still with the regroup/change tactics group, and I wish you and your family a great Thanksgiving, wherever and however that manifests itself.
Nearly all of those people sleep in warm beds at night. Not in icy cold tents other than a few well prepared diehards.
Time to regroup, set up a headquarters or multiple ones and focus efforts on positive change through meaningful actions that make a point and fail to alienate the average citizen.
NO you can stay it should be much warmer due to global warming from carbon dioxide. I'm confident that it will be warmer this year.
Number2, climate change is manifesting itself as wildly erratic weather, for example extreme droughts in Texas while flooding in Missouri. While this also means temperature rise overall, it also means areas of extremely cold weather, for example the last two winters on the American east coast. Do you recall "snowmageddon"? That was last winter. We can expect more extreme weather this winter, and all forseeable winters, due to climate change.
it is doubtful that this is anything new. the weather changes. In addition carbon credits are a ponze scheme to make al gore et al. rich.
Well, thanks for the insanity, number2
where's your proof?
"Observations throughout the world make it clear that climate change is occurring, and rigorous scientific research demonstrates that the greenhouse gases emitted by human activities are the primary driver. These conclusions are based on multiple independent lines of evidence, and contrary assertions are inconsistent with an objective assessment of the vast body of peer-reviewed science." This is an excerpt from a letter signed by the heads of the following organizations: the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Chemical Society, the American Geophysical Union, the American Institute of Biological Sciences, the American Meteorological Society, the American Society of Agronomy, the American Society of Plant Biologists, the American Statistical Association, the Association of Ecosystem Research Centers, the Botanical Society of America, the Crop Science Society of America, the Ecological Society of America, the Natural Science Collections Alliance, the Organization of Biological Field Stations, the Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics, the Society of Systematic Biologists, the Soil Science Society of America, and the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research. And that's just the American scientific organizations. They are observing the rapid increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, the increasing acidity in the oceans, the rapid increase in glacier loss, the rise in oceans, the rise in temperature, and making correlations they are trained and paid to make. The US military and intelligence community is taking climate change seriously, as are most other nations. But I guess you are not. Then there's the oil-stained Republicans in power: Exxon gave over $569,714 in campaign contributions this year, with 91 percent of the contributions going to Republicans. Chevron has contributed over $315,000 to federal campaigns n 2011, with 90% going to Republicans. These people are being paid to deny climate science. What's your excuse? What are you going to tell your children?
" making correlations they are trained and paid to make. " that's the key. You say one side is paid to deny it and the other side is paid to confirm it. Take out the money and it's just fluctuations in the weather as has always happened. Try to see both sides or at least not just one. There are 360 degrees of perspective. They will trade carbon credits on wall st. meanwhile our electric bills go up; the cost of heating and air-conditioning our homes goes up and the cost to drive our cars goes up. I can't afford that. can you?
Thanks for replying, but I did not say one side is paid to confirm climate change. They are paid to observe and report. And, unfortunately, it's not "just fluctuations in the weather as has always happened". Paper after paper has affirmed that current warming is outside the bounds of natural variation, and therefore likely due to human activities. For example we have seen a sea level hockey stick, an underwater hockey stick, a South American hockey stick, an Arctic summer temperature hockey stick, a tropical glacier hockey stick, a North American mountain snowpack hockey stick, a glacier length hockey stick, and warming of Atlantic water into the Arctic hockey stick.
Into this league of hockey sticks, Kinnard [2011], a just published scientific paper, which shows that the Arctic sea ice retreat is also a hockey stick, and that the present rate of melt in the Arctic summer is unprecedented in the last 1,450 years.
Kinnard [2011] refers to: Reconstructed changes in Arctic sea ice over the past 1,450 years
Authored by Christophe Kinnard, Christian M. Zdanowicz, David A. Fisher, Elisabeth Isaksson, Anne de Vernal & Lonnie G. Thompson Published in Nature, Vol 479, pp. 509–512 Received: 24 December 2010 Accepted after peer review: 21 September 2011 Published online: 23 November 2011
On one side of this argument, we have peer-reviewed science which establishes trends from evidence. From the other side, some great opinions, especially about the cost of doing the right thing. If it's 360 degrees, about 359 are pointing at the absolute need for ethical, immediate responses to this cataclysm.
you didn't say it but look at the players. the government likes to be told what it wants to hear; they give grants to researchers; researchers tell the government what it wants to hear; researchers get more grants.
A "climate changed winter"...as in what...previous winters were what?...warmer? cooler?.Wetter?....dryer?
fucking morons, back to moms basement and world of Warcraft
Yeah pumpkin, are you afraid of a little cold? A little bit of rain or snow. Some icy cold blasts of wind? What kind of protester are you, a warm weather one? You can't believe in our cause if you can't take a little bad weather. Get some gloves and a warm coat.
No, OWSCityHall, as I said I'm in Northern California, where the weather is likely to be as nice or nicer in the winter. I just think fighting Mother Nature on the eastern seaboard is choosing the wrong foe. Turns out, I'm not the only one thinking this.
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I admire your strength, CafPop. As for "true victory", I truly believe that the OWS movement had a direct effect on the following:
lol I'm saying that needn't be an issue. I think we should evolve the methods of the movement. When I say "fair-weather protesters" I'm taking that as a given, it's just plain fact that the winter will see the diminishing of the numbers of a consistent out-door presence, I'm not saying that in any derisive way.
You misunderstand me when I say I'm not giving up the fight. I don't mean I am going to live there for the whole winter. Liberals will still be liberals in the wintertime, just as conservatives tend to remain conservative in the wintertime, and being in zucotti park doesn't even physically prevent the day-to-day business of any real Wall Street transactions...lol
I think our message should say that the police presence occupying liberty square proves that merely the occupation of a location isn't enough to get a solid point across, and that merely living outside isn't the be-all end-all of our aspirations. I don't think there should be any officially vocalized hiatus point by any means, just an unofficial understanding that the fight will be kept up no matter what, and whoever wants to return to where they're from won't be looked at negatively at all, but don't be surprised if the movement gains a focus and slight narrowing in message as those naturally hardened by months of solidarity in the cold have more intimate conversations among themselves and trains of thought progress. Let our methods be less intrusive to the general public and not be so arrogant to assume that everyone should already agree with us, whether or not that be the case. Let us mobilize and engage in asymmetrical tactics in this war of information.
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No, it doesn't make sense.
Well, thanks, GirlFriday. I was hoping more for a dialogue and less of simple unsupported statements like yours. I made a point, and would be happy to read and think about any point you would like to make.
Leave now and that gives them ample time to prepare for the future. That way there can be even more rules etc. incorporated for what is done, how it is done and what is said and how the message is received. But, I'm sure that there are an awful lot of people who wish for this to end. That would allow an awful lot of people to maintain the status quo. Yeah?
Awful lot of people on the streets don't have a home to go to.
Good points, particularly about people not having a home to go to... I'm still for changing tactics this winter, changing tactics as necessary all year long...
climate change is real and has been going on for millions of years, to think humans are responsible or can somehow stop this from happening is absurd.
Unbelievable. Read ANYTHING, owschico. Get your head out of the sand.
Get your head out of the sand 'pumpkincurry' and quit reading from the websites that spew this left-wing human-caused global warming bullshit.
I could fill this website with evidence of the scam that is human caused "global warming" or "climate change" or whatever it is this week. The planet is 4 billion years old. It's been a lot hotter, and a lot colder. And it will continue to change. Get over it.
Conserv4ch: Indeed, the planet was a lot hotter, and a lot colder in the past. However, it really doesn't matter what happened before human habitation, does it?
Human-caused climate change is a fact. I doubt if you'll be interested in the following information, because somehow you know better than trained environmental scientists, but I'll address climate change, ocean acidification, and the build-up of nitrogen in our soil and our systems in as simple a way as I can. Let me know if you get lost.
Then we can go on to fresh water loss, biodiversity loss, feedback amplification, and other topics when you're ready.
The effects of climate change are already evident in the loss of summer sea ice in the Arctic Ocean, the melting of glaciers, the shrinking of the Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets, and sea level rise. Scientists measure climate change by the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere (parts per million) and the level of radiative forcing, i.e. change in the input or output of radiation to or from the atmosphere. Pre-Industrial Revolution era measurements for CO2 were 280 parts per million (ppm), and for radiative forcing, we can say the baseline is 0 watts per square meter, and a positive number indicates warming. CO2 levels reached 391.92 ppm in April 2011. Radiative forcing already measures 1.5 watts per square meter, risking triggering irreversible changes, such as the loss of major ice sheets, accelerated sea level rise and sudden shifts in forest and agricultural systems.
Ocean acidification is happening over 100 times faster than at any time in the last 20 million years. We are in danger of losing the coral reefs and their ecosystems, as well as certain marine plankton that could affect the entire food chain. 25% of all manmade CO2 emissions is removed from the atmosphere and taken up by oceans. But the more CO2 the oceans absorb, the more seawater becomes acidic and less saturated with aragonite, a form of calcium carbonate used by marine organisms such as corals to make their shells. It’s estimated that by 2050 only 15% of coral reefs will have enough aragonite for adequate growth. The boundary for sustainability is set at a saturation state of 2.74. Today, the level is 2.90.
Human activities convert around 120 million tonnes (one tonne =2,204.62 lb.) of naturally occurring nitrogen from the atmosphere into reactive nitrogen, mainly as fertilizer to help feed the world. But reactive nitrogen pollutes waterways and coasts, and in nitrous oxide form, exacerbates global warming. Synthetic fertilizer, leguminous crops (soybeans, peanuts, alfalfa), many types of manufacturing, and fossil fuel burning industries and vehicles all produce reactive nitrogen. The planetary boundary for the nitrogen cycle is figured in millions of tonnes per year removed from the atmosphere; the background level is 0, the boundary is set at 35, and we are already at 121. Phosphorus is a mineral that is mined for use in fertilizers, detergents, pesticides, steel production, and even toothpaste. It is measured in millions of tonnes per year entering the ocean. The background level is -1, the boundary is 11, and currently 8.5 to 9.5 million tonnes end up each year in the ocean where it depletes oxygen levels, harming marine life.
Please note that I only visit this site on the average of once a week, so please be patient when awaiting a response. Thanks!
Please present the proof that global warming is caused by people.
Human caused global warmimg/ climate change is a scam.
"Observations throughout the world make it clear that climate change is occurring, and rigorous scientific research demonstrates that the greenhouse gases emitted by human activities are the primary driver. These conclusions are based on multiple independent lines of evidence, and contrary assertions are inconsistent with an objective assessment of the vast body of peer-reviewed science." This is an excerpt from a letter signed by the heads of the following organizations: the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Chemical Society, the American Geophysical Union, the American Institute of Biological Sciences, the American Meteorological Society, the American Society of Agronomy, the American Society of Plant Biologists, the American Statistical Association, the Association of Ecosystem Research Centers, the Botanical Society of America, the Crop Science Society of America, the Ecological Society of America, the Natural Science Collections Alliance, the Organization of Biological Field Stations, the Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics, the Society of Systematic Biologists, the Soil Science Society of America, and the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research. And that's just the American scientific organizations. They are observing the rapid increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, the increasing acidity in the oceans, the rapid increase in glacier loss, the rise in oceans, the rise in temperature, and making correlations they are trained and paid to make. The US military and intelligence community is taking climate change seriously, as are most other nations. But I guess you are not. Then there's the oil-stained Republicans in power: Exxon gave over $569,714 in campaign contributions this year, with 91 percent of the contributions going to Republicans. Chevron has contributed over $315,000 to federal campaigns n 2011, with 90% going to Republicans. These people are being paid to deny climate science. What's your excuse? What are you going to tell your children?
The Myans did something similiar to this scam....the elite knew when an eclipse was coming and used it to con peasants out of food and wealth to appease the gods. Same thing as "human caused" global warming. The elite are taking advantage of a natural occurrence and conning the peasants out of $, thru taxes this time. They will pay themselves handsomely....
Thanks, roscoesdad, for your input. Go back to FOX News now... By the way, the 'elite' are begging you not to vote anymore...
This isn't evidence. The Earth has been warming for thousands of years. No one has offered evidence that the warming suddenly switched from being natural to being anthropogenic. Here is a sample of the IPCC's wording, "There is very high confidence that the global average net effect of human activities since 1750 has been one of warming, with a radiative forcing of +1.6" http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/syr/ar4_syr.pdf High confidence isn't proof. Not to mention that they admit that the sun is causing at least some of the warming. See "Global Ecosystemic Meltdown!" http://theinternationallibertarian.blogspot.com/2010/02/global-ecosystemic-meltdown.html
"Very high confidence" is a rating of 99 approaching 100%, darren. We also have very high confidence that air exists. Too bad it's invisible, so you can still deny its existence. Wake up and smell the rot. You should be ashamed of yourself for denying reality.
Actually, Very high confidence in defined as 90% by the IPCC.
Anyway, last I checked the existence of air had been proved. I've never heard a scientist say "I'm very confident that air exists". Nice try but I think you need to go back to sophistry school.
"net neutrality " is censorship.