Forum Post: I am in the 99% You are presumptuous to imply you speak for me and many others...
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 8:39 a.m. EST by RayinPenn
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C Here is why?
- The bailout ?(TARP) worked. The government got every penny back and the banking system continued to function. I work for a large bank and I can assure you I and all of my colleagues didn't get a dime of government money.
- My wife and I saved for years before we bought a modest home that we could afford, we worked hard, and paid off the mortgage early.
- I attended a state university and kept he cost to a minimum. It was not easy but I paid off my student loans. And I didn't whine about it.
- I expect nothing from my government other than to stay out of the way.
These are the kind of trolls, fools and agent provocateurs we ban at: http://www.themultitude.org/
So they do not derail the discussion.
RayinPenn- I used to think like you. I made good money working for a bank, We took college courses slowly we could afford, we had a modest home with an ok mortgage, no major debt other than our home, no car payments, no student loans. Then 3 years ago my bank out sourced my dept to India, I lost my job and our health care. I have applied for hundreds of jobs..nothing. So again I thought like you, I started my own business, but guess what, no one can afford to hire me or buy my products because people can not even afford their homes..so my business is a failure. My husband makes good money, yet we can barely make our bills, he makes too much money to receive state help and can not afford insurance. I found a lump in my breast several weeks again, I'm afraid it could be breast cancer..however we do not have insurance, or the extra money for me to see a doctor..we are trying to sell our home, in hopes of being able to afford health care and things our children need. We have to sell for a short sale of 100,000 less than what we owe, but the bank won't tell us the amount they will accept, so if we get an offer they may not even allow us to sell it! My husband works for the government and can not even get health insurance, but if we have a foreclosure or get sued he loses his job because he will be deemed a security risk. Explain to me, how any of this is not the governments or big corps faults please. Explain to me how to make my business work when millions have no jobs. yes, there are some out there who aren't trying, who are using this movement to advocate their laziness, but the majority are hard working people, who are tired of the banks and government tearing our country to shreds. I do hope that you never have to go through what we are going through now. I would not wish these hardships on anyone. Especially the fear of having a life ending illness and no healthcare. I'm sure we do not speak for all of the 99% now, there are others with your similar views, but I hope we never have to tell them "I told you so"
RayinPenn - I am glad that you were able to get a good job and work your way up through the system.
What you don't realize is that this is not the economy of 5, 10, or 20 years ago. Corporations are not hiring anyone. I'm not talking about high school dropouts either. I'm talking about people with engineering and law degrees who find the only job available to them pays $12/hour at Home Depot.
Are there some people who are lazy and want handouts? Absolutely. And I agree with you that they don't deserve to get a free ride. But if you go down to the park, you will see that the vast majority of protesters are not like that. That's just a cheap excuse given by people who don't want to face the reality that our system is coming apart at the seams, and pretty soon, with a few more rounds of layoffs, you may be unemployed, homeless, and without health insurance; marching down Wall Street with the rest of us. I speak not out of speculation, but from experience. I have a degree in civil engineering, yet was unemployed and homeless for the first half of 2011. I currently work a part-time job to barely even scrape by. And I am a young, educated and motivated white male with a network of supporting people in my life. I can only imagine how much harder it is for others who don't have any higher education or get discriminated against for their race, gender, or age.
When you apply for a job today, your resume is one of thousands. If you are a recent grad without extensive experience, companies won't even consider you. I know someone with a law degree from Yale who can't find work in their field. You will say they need to simply try harder, try harder. But when there are more people who need work than available jobs, the numbers just don't add up. If you were on a stranded island with 10 meals left for 100 people, you can't tell the other 90 to "try harder." Corporations are sitting on their money and not hiring anyone. They are hoarding the cash. Maybe if you were one of the people laid off for no fault of your own, and saw with your own eyes how hard it is to find a job that pays even 70% of what you were making, you would understand. And that is not even considering the fact that it seems you have the experience and connections to be able to find a new job more easily than many others.
I've said this before and I'll say it again: If you have any ideas on how the people who don't have work should find work, I am all ears. Run a clinic if you'd like. Run a job training. You will get motivated people in there who will follow your instructions. But when the majority of them are still coming 6 months, 1 year, 2 years later with no jobs, maybe you will start to understand. It's easy to sit on your high horse when you have never experienced it. But weeks and months and years of sending out thousands of resumes, and going on interviews, and going down to offices in person bears no results, there is only so much a human being will endure before reaching a breaking point. Before they start to realize that the rules of the game they're playing are not fair. And so the only solution is to either make significant changes to the rules, or to overhaul the game completely.
The thing that surprises me most is that you do not seem too happy about your job, and are spending time writing posts on occupywallst.org - yet you are supporting the current system as is. Are you doing what you love? Is this what you imagined for your life when you were growing up and getting an education? When you were 5 years old, did you tell your teacher that your dream was to be an underpaid banker; working longer hours and getting less raises? That you would be processing meaningless numbers, getting paid a small fraction off of what you earn (as the owner of your company becomes even more wealthy off of your labor) and living tight just to have the bare essentials for survival? And are just one more round of layoffs away from losing what you do have? How does your job make the world a better place? Are you helping people who need it? Or are you helping the uber-rich purchase another vacation home with other peoples' grocery money? This system is obviously rigged against the working man. I hope you come to realize that you are essentially defending your slave masters right now. There can and should be a better way of life for the common citizens than this. And that is why we protest. We stand up for the greater good. We don't support a government run by the rich, for the rich. Get out from behind your computer and go talk to actual people. Expand your perspective and see how others are living. Maybe it will allow you to understand.
Yikes, you are terribly wrong on so many points I'm not sure I could even begin to answer you. You are so angry you cant see clearly, there are no guarentees, no free lunch.
I think I just say this I enjoy what I do, I am grateful for the opportunity to go to work each day. I get a fair salary for what I do. I live simply, I think that's the key. There will never be a society where everyone is employed, earning a wonderful salary. I am slave to no one I can quit and reinvent myself any time.
There are two types of people on this site.
Those who are here to expand on their ideas and create progressive change in the world.
Those who are miserable and want to try to bring others down to their level because they have nothing better to do.
I'd like to leave off asking you (rhetorically) which one of these categories you truly want to be a part of. And if you can honestly say it's the first one, please re-read my original post again. And let me know what you think.
false consciousness...
What is it that we are fighting for? The end of Capitalism? American communism? What is with all of the isms?
Let me tell you what I am fighting for. I am fighting for a global economy that is based on all of the natural resources of the planet. I am fighting for a true democracy that is detached from profit-seeking institutions. I am fighting for the principals that America was truly founded upon; not the principals that Michelle Bachman, John Boehner, or Barack Obama understand. I lump all current politicians into one category: evil. Lacking morals. Lacking conscience.
I understand our problems to be so immense that if a true progressive took office he would not muffle them, nor elongate their existence. I do not believe that Barack Obama is fighting for the populous.
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Viva la Resistance!
Whether we like it or not, the "Class Warfare" that the GOP is now claiming was wage a long time ago by the riches. Most CEOs of US companies love the phrase/idea of "Buy America" yet no CEO (or very few) is will to take the lead on "Hire America". The public is only now starting to show its frustration. I call this the Modern French Revolution. Unfortunately this is the path of capitalism - both sides are wrong and both sides are right about certain issues. But at the end of the day - like Warren Buffet had said - it is about time that our government stops siding with and craddling the billionaires.
Whether we like it or not, the "Class Warfare" that the GOP is now claiming was wage a long time ago by the riches. Most CEOs of US companies love the phrase/idea of "Buy America" yet no CEO (or very few) is will to take the lead on "Hire America". The public is only now starting to show its frustration. I call this the Modern French Revolution. Unfortunately this is the path of capitalism - both sides are wrong and both sides are right about certain issues. But at the end of the day - like Warren Buffet had said - it is about time that our government stops siding with and craddling the billionaires.
"I expect nothing from my government other than to stay out of the way." You're kidding, right?? They bailed you the fuck out!! And now you have the audacity to preach the virtues of individual responsibility?? UNBELIEVABLE!! It's disgusting pieces of filth like you that are making us angrier each and every day. You're such a disgrace to America!!
It's clear from your response you are angry, misinformed and irrational. Seek counseling.
Go ahead and keep living in denial while sipping champagne on your lunch breaks while the protesters fight for democracy. Keep convincing yourself that you are better than them.
You must be kidding I bring my lunch from home. You have some crazy vision..not all bankers are wealthy. Some have run of the mill jobs. Are you always wrong?
What’s YOUR occupation?!!!
You "got" plenty of our $$$ in form of handouts...er i mean "bonuses." You know the last time I got a bonus? Yeah, we are outsourced and offshored so YOU don't have to give US bonuses. Plus - your wages are grossly inflated. The 99% doesn't have the luxury of peer benchmarking. You really have no idea wtf you are talking about because you've only seen your side of the looking-glass.
Try working 14 hour days as an investment banker under that kind of pressure and you'll come to think that the wages arent that grossly inflated. Oh, but you like to get out by 5, have a beer with your buds and have the weekends off. And you still want a 100k. Bummer.
Boo whoo, I am so sorry for you.
Go buff a dick good sir.
You are going to be sorry once this protest turns into a revolution, brother
I agree, they're not bankers like you, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers yourselves. Consequently, I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Every penny of tarp has not been paid back. over 200 billion is still outstanding that is 40% of the total.
No one thinks you or your colleagues "got" any govt money.
Your bosses engaged in mismanagement and then their organization was rescued by the government. THAT is why people are pissed off.
Banks have paid back 196 billion banks rec'd 190 million
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list/index
There's still plenty to be concerned about
Good for you? No one is speaking for you. Come and speak for yourself.
I am too busy working and living..
Have not read all the posts but how is the 99% defined?
How is the 1% defined?
Is it income of 1,000,000 or more or net worth of 1,000,000?
Sorry to ask...
Ray, the system doesn't work for the majority of American people. Laws that are made are made with one thing in mind, the special interest that wants that law. If we the majority say no, we are ignored. Most of us want tax cuts for the wealthy to expire, last poll 75%. But that isn't going to happen. We will be ignored. We are tired of being ignored, the majority. We are not brainless idiots that don't know what we want. We say it, and say it, to no avail. We have to yell to be heard.
i agree the additional tax for the wealthily proposed isn't really burdensome but o spend it on another stimulus. Why don't we just hand the money to another failing company ...tax yes but reduce debt..look at Greece.
http://i54.tinypic.com/1zq97xv.jpg
Ray, the system doesn't work for the majority of American people. Laws that are made are made with one thing in mind, the special interest that wants that law. If we the majority say no, we are ignored. Most of us want tax cuts for the wealthy to expire, last poll 75%. But that isn't going to happen. We will be ignored. We are tired of being ignored, the majority. We are not brainless idiots that don't know what we want. We say it, and say it, to no avail. We have to yell to be heard.
Ray, I think you are missing the point. First of all, no one should owe $100k in student loans but many of us do or will. I have had to go back to school after the economic collapse. I am a single parent, working on a degree, currently in social work. After I get my degree my starting pay will be around $25k a year. I will owe upwards of $40k or more in student loans. I have to take the full amount because I have to pay bills and support my children. I rent a modest home and my rent is about half of my current income. I work two jobs as well as attend classes full time. I am proud to say that somehow I have managed to keep a 4.0gpa. I do not have health care. I worked hard too, had a good job and savings until the economic downfall. I lost my job, my savings are gone and I live day to day right now. Now what have I done in my life that hasnt been personally responsible? I work hard, like you. Unlike you I wasnt lucky enough to find a good spouse so I am on my own, but that's not something any of us can count on. You seem to be saying, I drank the magic juice, I'm ok, so you should be too. And that, in itself is presumptuous.
I think your choice of fields is admirable, but 40k on 25k salary? I don't want to say it's a bad choice but it's not a good economic one. If you choose to borrow 100k to get an education it's a personal decision. I encourage my kids to choose a college based on return on investment. There any number of great schools for under 20 per year. I owed 5k when I graduated my starting salary was 11k ..it was a lot of money then but I paid off every penny. I wish you well.
Ray, If you are who you say you are, you are in the 99%. But understand, there's a fundamental problem in America today. THERE ARE MORE JOB CANDIDATES THAN THEIR ARE JOBS. Yes, you may have your job today, but what happens next week when a) it's exported to a foreign country b) automated (I'm a software developer and have often thought how easy it would be to automate a teller) or c) replaced with a cheaper alternative. You say it yourself - it's not easy ; but if it was easy 20 years ago, harder 10, and really difficult when you did it, I have one question. With that kind of slope is this? What do you do when it becomes impossible? Do you stick your head in the sand and pretend it's not impossible? Or can you bring yourself to care about anyone other than yourself.
In a global economy the work goes to the low cost provider. protesting that is like standing in front of a Tidal wave. not sure what the gov can do other then protectionism..not a popular notion.
Entrepreneurship, the thing the built America. You won't outsource yourself from your own business.
Wow, what an inane thing to say...and... grammatically incorrect. So, are you saying that if you can't find a job (because there are none left) you should just go out and start a business?
I guess I have my answer. You would stick your head in the sand. Congratulations, your are officially part of the problem.
I'm saying precisely that. If you can't find a job, make one.
By the way, using ... as a pause multiple times in a sentence is grammatically incorrect.
So, I can't let that go. It's just too stupid a thing to say. Making a job might have been possible a hundred, or even 50 years ago. But you seem to be ignoring the new economy we all live in.
When we, as American Workers, are competing with China, Thailand, Korea, etc., we are competing with a standard of living that we can't even approach.
What kind of business should I make? Let's say I want to make polo shirts for a living. I have to make them for under $14 a shirt, because that's what Bob's sells them for. How, in North New Jersey am I supposed to find staff, build a floor, and make them so cheap? The government is protecting me with tariffs to make Chinese shirts must more. Why, cronyism.
I would argue that the OWS needs to coalesce around the idea that the average guy doesn't have a fair shot anymore. Stop telling me that I'm being lazy, it's insulting. I just want a level playing field. You arguing that everyone has the same opportunity is sticking your head in the sand.
And my school isn't expensive, its the bills that are killing me. If I didnt have to pay rent, car insurance, heat, elec, gas (about $60 a week right now), water, etc, I would be ok. I could probably go to school without loans. But I have to pay BILLS.
But thats the problem Ray, everyone is choosing high paying jobs over anything else. Everyone can not be a financial adviser or a banker, the country is already flooded with them. Social Work with a minority in substance abuse counseling is an admiral career, but according to you, I should drop my major and become what? A stock broker?????
No but if you can't afford to eat on the salary my gut tells me don't go there. I not a high payed banker. Many people work for banks but don't make lot of money.
So what should I be taking? Please tell me because I have spent 40 years of my life trying to figure it out. Since you seem to have it all figured out, what career choice should I taking? I know! I could be an EMT! Oh but wait, they make minimum wage. Hmmmm, how a lawyer??? But wait, that would mean more student loans and another six years in school. A teacher??? No, they make about the same starting wage. Yeah Ray, I am flat out of ideas. Maybe you can help?????
I never said I figured it all out -I doubt anyone can or has. I am numbers guy, I feel for you. It is were I came from, always struggling to make ends meet. The numbers don't work.. if I can do nothing else read some Dave Ramsey it is a start.
Ps I have he feeling you are a good soul..best of luck
TARP is a very small percentage of the total benefits that were/are being accrued by the financial system. TARP is not synonymous with the bailout, rather, it was a small piece of the bailout.
These include the bailout of AIG, an unlimited credit line to Fannie/Freddie, Emergency Liquidity Facilities, the CPP part of TARP (On January 16, 2009 the Congressional Budget Office estimated that of the first $247 billion of securities purchased represented 26 percent ($64 billion) subsidy to the banks receiving funds), ZIRP, debt monetization, QE, Maiden Lane, and a variety of other programs.
Yet the banks get all the focus..
Personal responsibly includes facing prosecution for CEOs that mislead their shareholders or knowing underwrote or old bad mortgages...
How about this paraphrase? Personal responsibility includes dealing with congressmen and US federal agency bureaucrats that mislead taxpayers and other citizens and knowingly urged, enabled and accommodated those who underwrote and sold bad mortgages.
Why do most people ignore the original culprit? Congressmen buying the votes of millions is what led to this.
Actually, you expect (and benefit) quite a bit from your government. I don't understand, however, what your issue is here. Many people are in your boat. The point is that we have still been deprived a fair share of this country's economic gains over the last three decades, which the top 1% has confiscated overwhelmingly for itself. It is not okay that productivity has markedly outpaced rises in wages and salaries over the last thirty years. We demand the fruits of our labor back.
Confiscated? Do the 1% stash their goods in the basement? What are you talking about? Their funds are in circulation...what they have and hold is unimportant...
They have confiscated the income. The yearly stream of money in the economy. And it very much matters how money is put in circulation. For example, the top 1% use much of their surplus income in the political sphere to protect and further entrench their economic interests as against the other 99%. This amounts to waste from a social perspective, as the money can be spent in more socially useful ways if it had been taxed and spent by society collectively through our government.
So being the TARP was paid back so swiftly, it leaves me to believe they truly didn't need it. Large Banks should have taken their loss...after all, free market is suppose to follow it's motto, "Sink or Swim." But that's the problem overlooked, bankers hate to lose a dime. And that's all this TARP Money did.
Yes and No. These banks were all extremely interconnected. Even though some didn't need it and some did. A failure by a couple can take the rest down. Americans banks go, Euro banks would go as well. What would have happened, if you couldn't go to the ATM to get money. No credit card worked? Saving/Checking accounts frozen because access to capital on two continents was tied up. You think TARP was bad imagine what FDIC would be on the hook for if the all the major US banks went under. It would make TARP look like a tip to the valet compared to the price of the main course.
True that. I am in the 99% too. Being EXTREMELY generous, using million man march math, there are 100,000 protesters in the OWS movement. There are 307,006,550 people living in the US right now. 99% if that number is - 303936484. The 100,000 (using million man march math) protesters in the OWS movement are approximately .03% of that 99%. The hilarity of that 0.03% of the population (being EXTREMELY generous in my estimate of their numbers) having the audacity to say that they speak for the other 98.07% is pretty overwhelming.
Maybe they should refer to themselves as the other 1%.
Or the other 0.03% of the 99%.
You are correct to say that much of what the "banks" have borrowed from the government was returned, but what about the investor's money? Everyone is hurting now but the banks.
The value of stocks worldwide plummeted by more than 30 trillion in 2008! That is why the people are upset!
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/02/04/business/20090205-bailout-totals-graphic.html http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/main/summary http://www.subprimelosses.com/blog/index.php/2009/01/02/2008-a-year-of-subprime-scandals-and-setbacks/
Isn't a banks value reflected in its stock price. If people perceive that profitability will be greater in years to come, then the price should rise but if people don't think the bank will be more profitable in the near future the price should fall. Yea, banks have been saved but that doesn't mean they are going to make the billions they made pre-crisis. If bank stocks were overvalued because of profits from mortgage related business, then it is probably safe to assume that there values should be lower now especially if prop trading is being eliminated.
I too fear those future obligations. They know we are not done here. There are many more foreclosures to come.
I would imagine they will find a way, even without prop trading, to manipulate the system in whatever way possible and return to making billions and yes, the banks stocks should be adequately valued.
Simple solution. They had it right in 1933 with the Glass-Steagall Act. Separate Investment Banks and Commercial Banks. Let Investment Banks be as risky as they want and make Commercial Banks as boring as they should be. Protect consumers deposits but allow those who want to take risk, able to take it. If they fail it is their capital at risk, not our deposits.
Can you believe that repeal ever went through? BIG MISTAKE. It think it was back in 1999. This is just another example how corporations push things through Congress. Sadly, the common citizen doesn't have a voice, time or resources to superintend what is presented and we have not been able to trust our lawmakers to make the right decisions on our behalf.
Yep, gramm-leach-bliley Act. Well now the citizenry is more aware of the consequences of allowing these money center banks to develop. It is time to petition our legislature to reinforce the principles in Glass-Steagall. Rep. Marcy Kuptar of Ohio's 9th District is trying - H.R. 1489, Return to Prudent Banking Act. This will try to reestablish the divisions. She needs more support though. Can't do it by herself.
This is why I hope the movement lays out the first proposition; to eliminate campaign finance right now. It may take a while to clean out congress but hopefully the few that have some good ideas, will get somethings through with less opposition. So many things have gotten through that are just ridiculous. The top of my list of ??? is CDOs and Anti-trust exemptions for the health care industry. What a joke.
CDO's aren't the real danger, its rating them AAA, if in fact they are garbage. Health Care exemptions are treason. We need a new system for rating agencies. One where they aren't paid by people who are issuing securities. There are a plethora of problems, its just a matter of recognizing them and fighting for change. Before we were naively unaware. At the end of the day we own the gov't. We pay taxes and hire them to monitor things. If we are unhappy with the performance of these employees, than maybe its time for some new employees.
Just cross your fingers that they can handle the amount of change necessary once the right people are put into place.
1) TARP might have gotten its money back but there are lingering obligations to the gov't via M&A agreements during the crisis. JP and Bear, Wamu. The gov't is still on the hook for losses. If banks actually had to mark to market their MBS portfolios today, I am curious to see what would happen to Net Worth. Also, I am interested to see what bank exposure is really going to look like when derivatives are traded on a formal market.
What I am saying is the system has served me well because I never expected or wanted a handout. I took advantage of every opportunity afforded me. When things were difficult I didn't whine...I took responsibility or myself and did what needed to be done. Just look how many posts refer to "they"! They sold me a mortgage I couldnt afford. They said I have to pay back my student loans.. They won't give me a job...
Real problem is you.
I don't want a hand out, I want a hand up. I would be happy just to have the opportunity to see a doctor when I am sick, rather than when I have saved enough cash to see one. I want to be able to get out of school owing less than what my starting pay will be. I want to be able to afford to live in a decent safe neighborhood without having to put out every dime I have in rent. I want to be able to heat my home when its cold and not have to freeze because I don't have the money to pay the heating bill. The REAL PROBLEM is people like you, that fail to see or understand what many of us deal with on a day to day basis. WAKE UP.
Wow you have. Long list of wants..but what have you done to solve your problems? Other then whine. I know what I did. Went to school for ever and climbed out of the crap. Maybe, just maybe, if you put your effort into improving your lot instead of whining can get all your with list filled. I wish you well...anger solves nothing.
Put MORE effort??? Ok, lets see, I guess I can go get a THIRD JOB, I don't know what beyond getting a 4.0 I could do in school. And of course I am whining, I am IN PAIN. My back is killing me after busting my ass bartending all night, just to come home with less than $20, half of which went into my gas tank. Maybe you could do more THAN SIT ON YOUR FINGER POINTING ASS, and help some people.
Seems to me you are angry at the wrong person. I also find it hard to believe a gifted academic like yourself would not ultimately succeed. I sense there is more to the story. I know what worked for me and many others -hard work. I also know complaining never did any good. Getting angry and using vulgarities only serves to weaken your point. I hope you find peace.
Ultimately I might succeed. Right now, I am struggling. I get tired of being told I need to "work harder". How hard is hard enough?
Here's the difference between you and me, Ray.
See, like you, I'm also one of the lucky ones. I have a high paying job doing something I love. I have no debt. I work hard and save. I don't like whiners.
But unlike you, I realize how lucky I am, and I don't puff myself up with notions that I got where I am solely due to my own pluck and hard work.
I worked hard, yeah, and I feel that I deserve my life, but I was helped every step of the way, by the society that educated and nurtured me, and I feel like I owe that society something.
That's why I'm protesting, Ray. So that maybe the someday the system will work for everyone, not just lucky hardworking guys like you and I.
Well said...There are so many brilliant, creative and hard working people lost in our country. I fear for the young who choose not to educate themselves due to the high costs of education that is coupled with the lack of opportunities and I feel for the old who will need to seek employment well into their 60s and even 70s to cover supplemental health insurance. Student loans outstanding are around 1 trillion dollars- if I'm not mistaken.
Respectfully..You could not be more wrong about me not realizing how fortunate I am. I always think about how I am blessed and just how many people that there are that are in unfortunate circumstances through no fault of their own. I believe in a government safety net for them. But to complain about your student loan? Or that house you bought that you never had a hope of paying for. It's about personal responsibility.
The system can and will never work for everyone.
I do agree that people should not have purchased homes they were unable to afford but please remember, there are many people that lost their jobs and/or have huge health care bills that made this home impossible to carry. These same people would sell their homes if they were worth anything. Short sales are numerous. Unfortunately, banks didn't make sure they had adequate down payments. Government actually supported all of this. Everyone was irresponsible with the house of cards.
Banks didnt make sure they had adequate Dow payments? My god a few years go people complained they couldn't hope to save the 20% down payment. How about the numberb of fraudulent mortgage application overstating income or not disclosing all debt. More often then not the borrower has some skin in the failure. I agree many had a hand in the credit debacle.
It's possible to believe in personal responsibility and moral hazard (I do) and to still be pissed off that regular people are being screwed over.
The Mortgage Banking association walked away from a multimillion dollar underwater mortgage on their DC headquarters! And they want to lecture folks about responsibility and honoring obligations.
You can't make this stuff up.
I commend your frugality and work ethic, but the simple question I have for every protester is why now? The core issues that everyone has illustrated on this blog have been apparent for 20 years. Why weren't you protesting in the 90's?
I would say because, throughout history, people don't generally go to the streets unless they don't have enough to eat. There are over 200,000 unemployed people in this country, most of which have been unemployed for years. Back in the 90's, it still seemed that if you worked hard, you could make a life for yourself, possibly even prosper. Now, it seems less and less likely. Heat and pressure over time will make a diamond. This has been a long time coming, and the inequalities have become too apparent not to do something. The core issues are no longer just at the core, it has begun rotting the entire apple.
Agreed. We are all angry about the situation and are blaming the many culprits because there are many. At the end of the day this is our country, we pay taxes to the gov't so they can work for us. We negotiated a social contract at the inception of this country of liberties surrendered by the populace for protections by the gov't. If we are not vigilantly watching our house and hoping that others will do so in our best interest than we should only be mad at ourselves and start pushing for reform. It starts right here - H.R. 1489, Return to Prudent Banking Act. Separate Commercial and Investment Banks
Probably because of the economic down turn caused by greed, plain and simple. Greed just brought down the world economy. And I think we supported Egypt, and it brought something out in us that was lacking before. We always feel what can we do about it? Nothing will change. Now we know it can change, by solidarity.
I don't mean to deride your answer sir, but your comment didn't really have anything to with my response. Your answer to my question of why didn't this individual protest during the 90's was "Probably because of the economic down turn caused by greed, plain and simple." Then you comment on Egypt? ..... Your answer reinforces the action but I was addressing the causes. If we were really upset about globalization, outsourcing, etc...... why didn't we complain 20 years ago when they were occurring just as frequently? That was my question. Also change through solidarity is an empty statement. I am with you but offer up solutions not lines.
I am a woman. I think during the boom we did not see much of what was there, poverty always, jobs were available, but then because of laws protecting us being abolished, then the economy all over the world going bust, it woke us up. Maybe it is just time for a revolution because there is so much in the world that is wrong, and with the globalization a realization, we know we are all in it together. It could also be that the internet has allowed us to talk to each other on a broader medium. Once we had no news media, then we had news media, then we had biased media, now we don't need the media.
Ma'am I respect you as a person and as women but the truth of the matter is that all these same issues were present during the Great Depression. Excess lending, falling home prices, declining stock markets, poor labor laws. The problem is we didn't learn from our past mistakes. When we instituted reform we had 70 years of productivity until we thought we were too smart to repeat the errors of the past and succumbed to them almost exactly the same way as before.
You don't exactly have to blow a brain gasket to figure that out.
The 90s economy, while rotten underneath, seemed to be working more or less.
Now the economy has hit the wall and we can see the problems that were there all along: destruction of unions, offshoring, deregulation, out of control financial gambling, corporate ownership of government.
They used to pay us wages and we bought their products. Now they lend us money at usurious rates and we kill ourselves to keep the loan sharks happy.
So, the inherent problem is nobody complains as long as there getting theres, even the middle class. It seems hypocritical that as long as we all make money we don't ask questions or complain until things are bad. (not pointing figures merely commentating what seems to present an obvious flaw in protesting in the past tense)
1) Outsourcing is a function of American businesses trying to stay competitive against companies in countries with a cheaper labor base. US companies would go out of business if they had to go head to head with foreign companies with cheaper cost structure. 2) It is our fault if we allowed corporations to influence gov't. 3) No one has to borrow if they don't want to. If your saying that a persons credit was tarnished and they can only receive credit at high rates, I am sure there are factors that led to that low credit score.
No, I don't think it is as long as they are getting theirs. Because, me, and people I see on news at OWS all over the nation, are comfortable financially, but realize that there are others that have worked all their lives, and lost their pensions, and their savings because of the greed on Wall Street. We feel for our fellow Americans, and the next generation saddled with debt, and going up against a government that is not for the people, but for a few.
The pensions of government workers, state , local and federal are far more secure than private industry.
I would love to have the security of a retired governmemt worker now.
Will they give up some of their benefits to help the rest of us out?
Just sayin.....
Then run for office. If you are unhappy with your representation and are comfortably financially, time to get our there and change things.
I am out there, with OWS, I am too old to run for office, but have always been involved. My representatives, both state and local, get much email from me, and probably cringe when they see it come in.
The question does the government provide us with a framework to succeed? I think it does.
The government framework does not provide all to succeed. Just take the farm subsidies, 167 billion to Conglomerates (Go See Farm Subsidy Data Base), wealthy that do not even live on farms, but bought them to get subsidies or other breaks. The real farmers are going broke, because they are not getting these subsidies. (concerts always for farm aid). No one, dems or reps will cut these subsidies. Yet they are not helping those they were created for, or so we were told.
Slightly Agree. If gov't would agree to equal tradeoffs during the negotiation of trade agreements, we would probably be better off. The chinese floating their currency would create a more level playing field is probably the most clear cut example.
I'm afraid we're dealing with human beings in all their fallible , self interested glory.
It takes a lot of people no longer "getting theirs" to wake this country up, and that might not be noble and ideal, but that's reality.
Outsourcing is a function of a great many factors, some of them inherent in changing technology, and some of them inherent in skullduggery, greed, antics, and entirely avoidable stupidity. Read Clyde Prestowitz' "The Betrayal of American Prosperity" and get back to me.
I probably will thanks for the suggestion. My only other comment before I get off the soap box is that there are mid size and small businesses that are being hurt by cheap labor abroad too, its not only about the multinationals and oligarchs. Small: Diamond setting businesses in NYC, usually are one man shops or maybe two. They receive jobs from retail jewelry stores to set stones. This was a pretty good business until so one figured out that they could send that setting to China and receive it back in 3 days for fraction of the cost. Mid: Middle tier accounting firms can send your taxes to India to a firm to be processed and receive them back to be submitted to the gov't in lieu of hiring new accountants. The effects of Cheap labor and globalization are pervasive. This isn't a strictly you, them scenario.
I can directly speak about the first because family members use to work in that business.
That's great! You are one of the lucky ones. I don't think everyone can say the same thing though.
RayInPenn: there are people all over these forums who think that because they decided to call themselves "the 99%" that automatically they have everyone in that group on board with them. Thank you for trying to talk some sense